Performance Ability does it matter?

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:04 PM

Rosie, that is IMHO a very perceptive comment.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM

Georgiansilver, no static from me. If you have a physical problem that prevents you from memorizing new songs and you need the song book or song sheet as a "replacement memory," then you'll get no criticism from me. My quibble is with those (and there seems to be a fair percentage of them) who have such little regard for their audiences—and the music—that they feel they don't need to bother with such things as learning the words, even thought they could if they simply took the time and effort.

Go to it! If you need the book or the song sheet, go ahead and use it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:17 PM

Cheers Richard.

I feel that my contention is essentially,
that *if* amatuer song-circles, are to be blamed for the destruction of trad folk, *who* then, is to blame for *allowing* amatuer song-circles to carry the vast weight and burden (it is pretty big, after all!) of our ENTIRE musical cultural heritage in the first place!?
Is this in some way ridiculous? For me, as a complete and indeed besotted newbie, it seems thoroughly so!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:30 PM

I'm pissed off with sessions where I seem to spend half the time at the bar

If I were you I'd stop going to those sessions. That's probably the most effective way that any one person can express their disapproval.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:37 PM

Sleepy Rosie,
Does your analogy about the watercolor club include putting on an art show in a public place? Do you think that really bad art should be displayed?

There are a few different venues being discussed in this thread: private singarounds or sessions, singarounds or sessions in public, paid gigs. I think they each have their own requirements for competency. I'm glad that no one here seems to think that anyone of any ability should accept paid gigs.

I don't think that folks who can't get through a song should be out in public trying to do so. On the other hand, I would never dream of trying to police the situation. I would just form my opinions of the performer and the venue and move on. So the number of people who have been accosted by the competency police doesn't really reflect the opinions of the listeners. I think perhaps I'm feeling a bit like I spent years getting good enough to perform, and others should do the same. Totally self-centered, I know.

If you're not in public, anything goes, as far as I'm concerned. Experience playing or singing for others is almost as important as practicing.

I also strongly believe in encouraging beginners, finding positive (but true) things to say to them, and helping them in any way I can. I also try to find kind and supportive ways to let them know where they should concentrate their practice efforts.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:55 PM

I have no problem with people using books or sheets. I've been known to do it myself from time to time, and I've seen professional musicians work from music stands as well (yes, in folk clubs). That's not the same thing as not preparing your song for your audience - we can all have memory problems.
I've never known a folk venue stop anyone from singing or playing, nor have I encountered discourtesy to anyone contributing to an evening (and that's in a good many years and a good many different folk venues) although I have heard some fairly dire performances from time to time. Not often. But it happens. The worst time is when I have non-folkie friends or family along on my recommendation or even to see me, but even then I don't remember hearing any unpleasant comments.
I don't think anyone has been suggesting that amateur singarounds have caused any problems at all for folk music and I absolutely agree that it's a disgrace the way the media and the general public make fun of Morris and some of our other traditions. The question was more specific. Yes, in some situations ability to perform is important. In some other situations it doesn't matter at all.
I run voice workshops - I tell my participants it doesn't matter if they go out of tune, get the words wrong, get the timing or key wrong or develop an attack of hiccups or giggles. And it doesn't - and even paid performers can get away with it with the right audience. But - and it's a big but - if it's a regular problem and not a rare occurrence then it's probably something you should work at not to do.

Anne

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:57 PM

"Does your analogy about the watercolor club include putting on an art show in a public place? Do you think that really bad art should be displayed?"

Sure.
Check out your local (UK) libraries boards for examples...
There are a lot of amatuer clubs for various arts in the UK, but as far as I'm aware, none of them are expected to carry the entire weight of the art itself!

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Nick
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:02 PM

I think people at singarounds should be encouraged to get involved if they want to but I also think that they owe some form of duty to themselves and others to make some attempt to at least try to reach their potential. It's still a mystery to me why some people seem content to stay exactly at a level they began at.

Having said that most people I have come across have over time improved. Over the past few years I have at various times made recordings at our singaround and there is a noticeable difference from where we started out.

There is a page of songs and tunes which I put together for a friend which came from us singing at our local singaround at the Thompsons Arms Flaxton in North Yorkshire. Apart from one visiting group of musicians who turned up one night and one person who has sung in public on and off for years, the rest of the offerings are from people who had never sung or played in public before we started (except perhaps the odd orchestra).

A little encouragement goes a long way.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:46 PM

I will not pay to be annoyed.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:53 PM

For about the 10th time, I will give my disclaimer about books & sheets...

IF I can close my eyes and not be able to tell someone is using a cheat-sheet or book, I will not complain. If you can sing the words and know the tune WITH a book, I can enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:53 PM

Responce to Kendall's:

I will not pay to be annoyed

I simply DO NOT PAY ....there are a myriad of avenues flowing into any venue...flower delivery, electronis, a handful of bolts, a steaming dish of hot stew.

With MY price paid in a floral bouquet....I will frequently stay until the 4:00 a.m. last call....at WolfTrapp, Greek, Newport, and Hyde and on one occasion an 11:00 Mary worthy of the "Bloody Tower."

Personally, I do not beleive that ANY performer should be paid above their "bed and bread." Enough said. We do it for the art.<-p>

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

&)(*(&%#& ^*&^* YIIUY RE ^% %$#NB? *(&(&L6 Hj GH TYJH EYTRD?:"

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:39 PM

Quiet, isn't it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:39 PM

I am always amazed someone will pay good money to hear me play music.. My voice isn't the greatest .. There are better banjo players but for some reason I can hold a room. I love doing it and people put up with and even pay me to do it.I am very thankful to them . There are a lot of things to balance here but in the long run <><><> Its sort of like going out with a person .. I cant choose for them to like or not like me and I have to respect them to make their choice about me . I just have to be brave enough to be present ..   This holds true to me on the whole thing about putting music up on youtube.. I have met so many wonderful people from putting up clips on YT.. Are they great music ?? Maybe not but the sharing starts a dialogue that, I hope is worth something .. All good all around . All the best to old friends here , Guy

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:25 AM

You know the general public do seem to be a lot more tolerant of us wailing guitar stranglers than some of the folks on here would seem to believe.

Actually I don't know that.

I think it contributes to the poor public image the music has.

Well I dont know if you go to other than folk clubs or what sort of folk you aprove of.
But you are entitled to your opinion the same as I hope I am.
I am not a folky in the way a lot of you seem to be on here.
I love to hear it but dont "know " about it.
It is my personal experience that "normal" people are more put off by what may come over as a snotty and unpleasent attitiude towards "outsiders" than they are by having someone sing a little off key or maybe forget a few words.
There are limits even to what I will sit through.
But I would always listen the first time with interest to anyone having ago.
I have been to concerts where I paid to see Name performers and discovered they were not for me within say twenty minutes and spent time outside with a fag and some beer+ whoever elses tits were in danger of falling off from boredom.
I think its the boredom thats get to most people.
Sometimes all these threads seem boringly similar.
Gs and his singing however would never be boring even if he were reading from the encyclopedia of permissable folk songs.
And Nick thanks for the link Jen and I are gonna make some time this evening to have proper listen and refresh our Flaxton memories.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:33 AM

As a (hopefully humourous) aside.
In the 70's I was involved in the running of a Folk Club. (Standard pattern, Residents, Floor spots, and then the Guest).
On one particular night. we'd managed to book a pretty well known artist to play. On arrival at the pub, there was this young chap with a guitar, who'd travelled 50 miles to come. He asked if he could play. Of course, we said.
Well he did a couple of songs in the first half. Nice voice, Good guitar technique etc.
So when it came to half time, we asked him to do 3 more songs as the "support" to the guests 2nd set. (After all he had done a 100 mile round trip, he was pleasant to listen to, and it meant the rest of us could have the rest of the evening off!).
He was delighted.
The time came, and he did three songs, all of which was material popularised by, you've guessed it......The Guest artist!!!
In fact, they were going to be the climax to the artists 2nd set!
(Sound of ripping up setlists at this point!)
It's not always incompetent performing that is the problem. It's sometimes thoughtlessness on the part of the performer.
The guest seemed to take it in good spirits, but, I'm sure he was seething inside.
PS. The guy actually asked us to book him for an evening after the show. We reluctantly declined!!!
(Oh and Rosie......Panini Blandness.....Priceless!)

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 02:47 AM

Panini blandness?
Panino is the soloist
Great band

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: rich-joy
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 02:47 AM

What about when you have "lost it" due to age??

I am thinking of a very keen local chap who absolutely LOVES the limelight, but can't accept that he no longer has what it takes to be in the least Entertaining - or even listenable! (e.g. he has a quiet warbling voice that can't stay in key and gives long rambling introductions in his quiet, heavily accented, voice) His songs are just not recognizable! (and nigh-on impossible to sing along with).

If asked to do just one, or maybe two items, he'll always attempt to do more - sometimes very cunningly!

Some of the audience consider he should always be given a go, purely as a mark of respect for his age (he's over 80), whereas many others find it a very painful experience and if they could get up and go to the Bar without being too obvious, they would!!!

He is the bane of the MC's too!

Any thoughts?!

R-J

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 02:53 AM

Tim, without doubt the music does have an extremely poor public image among "normals" and yes, just one factor is the air of in-crowd cliquiness of some of the GEFF denizens.

It's many a "f*lk club" that's so boringly similar to the next (with a handful of honourable exceptions). Then there's those "led" singarounds where people wander in, do the material of the quasi-stellar artist and all hell breaks out, usually on here.

It all smacks of complacent, misplaced smug amateurishness. I'm not tolerant of wailing "guitar stranglers" or anything really less than proficiency and commitment fit to be aired in public. And behind every good performance is many hours of practice in showers and bedrooms with doors firmly shut.

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:11 AM

I sense a concept for a 3rd Division Sky satellite lifestyle channel series
brewing up in here..

"Celebrity Make Me A Folk Singer Combat Boot Camp"

could even combine it with fast weight gain and looking 10 years older..

I wouldn't watch it..
but I'd set the recorder for my mrs
to catch up on it..

then maybe sit down to take the piss out the elimination finals..

maybe next Xmas chart number 1 CD in this idea..

oops.. shoulda copyrighted this.. !!!???

Subject: RE: Performace Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:41 AM

"I have a terrible feeling of deja vu coming on......"
Me to - the same old patronising/elitist crap - ie "we can't expect anything better from singaround nights so we won't ask for it; but hey, so what; Martin'll be along next week......"
A paying audience should make NO DIFFERENCE WHATEVER. If you are attempting to involve the general public the music should be of a presentable standard, otherwise you are pissing on it from a great height.
"I don't know that I believe that an inclusive 'all abilities welcome' ethos in free amateur song-circles could possibly 'kill the music'"
A failure to apply standards has been partly responsible for, if not killing the music, at least of having put it on a life-support machine.
The irony of this question is that, unless there is something seriously wrong with a person's physical makeup, nobody is incapable of making a good job of a song as long as they make the effort and put in the work - but NOT IN PUBLIC. The patronising attitude of failing to expect a standard from a singer 'in case we scare them off' will not only produce shoddy performances, but will guarantee their continuance until folk music is no more than a warm memory - nobody will ever treat badly sung songs with any level of respect and they will never rise above the 'Knees Up Mother Brown' level.
I take some heart from threads like this (68 postings in a day), but unless they move from being 'are standards necessary' to 'how are we going to improve standards' they will never be more than meaningless and very, very predictable rituals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM

".... and No, it doesn't matter at a singaround, everyone should be encouraged to have a go and I will applaud them for doing so."

This is pernicious bollocks!! I, for one, do not want to spend any more evenings listening to endless lazy, poorly rehearsed crap! If you can't be bothered to even learn the words - don't inflict yourself on an audience!

And before any of the usual suspects jump to the defence of beginners: I AM NOT HAVING A GO AT BEGINNERS!!! Is that loud enough for you? I would expect a beginner to struggle a bit but I would also expect them to improve with practice. If you're still crap after a year or two, please do everyone a favour and stop - you've probably run out of everyone's sympathy and admiration for your 'courage'.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:42 AM

I spend hours playing singing and practising and playing,I hope to try and do the music justice,I am sometimes disappointed with myself,maybe I am tired .
the important thing is to have respect for music and also self respect.
there is less excuse now than ever before for poor performance,there are more free lessons on you tube ,plenty of workshops etc etc.
however , I like the idea of people having a go,making their own music,but even in a singaround there needs to be an experienced m c,who knows the weaker and stronger performers,and can juxtapose them successfully,giving the weaker performers less time ,so that a reasonable standard is maintained.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge waiting for students at LSBU
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:51 AM

Better performance comes in two types - better playing and singing, and "working the audience". You can form your own view of how it is going at the Nag's Head if you look at the links put up on the thread - a couple of compilation videos and a couple of John Barden supported by howling great chorusses (choroi?) . Not all of us are anywhere near as good as John but so far the locals seem to be liking it.

Mind you having heard their attempts on Karoake night we must be better than most of them!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM

On the point of performing songs that are in the set of the guest for the night, a few years back we went to a songwriting workshop by a very well known and respected songwriter.

He told the story of how he turned up for a gig, and the people who were running it asked him if he would mind not doing songs A, B, C and D (which he had written), because their group normally did them.

Full marks for nerve!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:19 AM

Having lived much of my life in Folk Years, I see the singaround in terms of both Seance & Holy Communion. I have been transported and transfigured; I have seen visions and passed through portals into hitherto unknown realms of exquisite wonderment. I have openly wept at the transcendent beauty of a traditional ballad & damn near pissed myself when my concept of incompetence has been defined afresh and the variables of the known universe have been shifted accordingly. But worse - far worse - I have been bored into states of terminal shitlessness by those preening musos whose faultless techniques and performance abilities, though lauded by most, have had me bidding a hasty retreat to the bar, there to rediscover the will to live in a pickled egg washed down with swift half of Talisker.

Recently, two determinedly non-musicians got up and treated us to a rendition of The Great Pretender in which they sang along to a pre-recorded cassette tape of them singing along with the record, complete with incidental ambience. They used the words, much good that it did them of course, and the I swear that the 3 minutes they were up there seemed as 15 (hence Folk Years). But in such moments we pass through into a realm of a near absolute surrealism, shading our eyes in the presence of a universal brilliance which many I'm sure have mistaken for God but which is, most assuredly, human, however so uncommon it might be.

The Folk Club is a collective happening - it lives and breathes, it consumes & it excretes, it absorbs and humiliates; we leave our egos at home along with our expectations (in one of those safe place which means we spend most of the next day looking for them). Above all, we are enriched by the ecology of folk in its natural habitat wherein the only thing that matters is people doing what they're moved to do, to whatever ability they are uniquely gifted with.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Habius Corpus
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:32 AM

There are more important things to worry about than song circles. Brits tolerate more than guitar players.

British people allowed a authoritarian state to creep into being right under their noses.   In many other countries there would have been rioting in the streets. For instance, years ago, when the Greek government passed a law that required the early closing of entertainment venues, Greeks promptly partied all night in the streets forcing the government to back down.

At the same time the rich-poor divide has widened with class once again becoming an issue.

People at the lower end of the scale are battered by disproportionately high taxation - much of it indirect and hidden - as well as unprecedented levels of personal debt to banks and credit companies.

Hospital wards are plagued with deadly MRSA and other bugs.

Youngsters are leaving school unable to read and write

Violent crime has doubled

Prisons are overflowing to the extent ships are to be used as temporary jails.

ASBOS (Anti-social Behavior Orders), confines people to certain parts of town and exclude them from others.

Britons have become the most spied-upon people in the world.

In the pipeline are compulsory biometric ID cards and genetic harvesting by law enforcement.

Proposed satellite tags to track the elderly.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:07 AM

"the only thing that matters is people doing what they're moved to do,"
as in bowels, I take it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:39 AM

Like I say, Jim - it lives and breathes, it consumes & it excretes...

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

"And behind every good performance is many hours of practice in showers and bedrooms with doors firmly shut."

Now I begin to see the light I think.
I do agree that practice is paramount,as is not being stoned,or endrunkened.
I also think beginers need to have somewhere to play where they can be confident of a freindly reception and possibly even some advice.
Of course as a beginer you need to have gumption to listen to all advice and apply only that which suits what you want to achieve.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

Sorry Sinister; can't think of anybody I know who would leave a warm fireside and an exciting episode of 'Corrie' for the privilege of watching somebody having a dump - though I will admit that it is an idea that seems to permeate the club scene occasionally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:54 AM

Yes, all three help quite a bit, as is possessing a smidgeon of talent in the first place. Last week I saw Leon Rosselson, celebrating 50 years of songwriting. For one very new, ink-still-drying song he spread the lyrics unobtrusively in front of him, just in case. He made sure this did not detract from his performance.

Later today, I'll see young Jon Boden, It's not even 10 years since he rose out of the session world but what an example he is of learning, improving and excelling. And the gig's not in a flamin' f*lk club. Hurrah.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:01 AM

I doff my cap to you Sinister Supporter...
Succinct, Well written, erudite in a "nail on the head....hitting" sort of way.
My only caveat.....Do I have to remove my version of "The Great Pretender" from my reportoire now?
Jolly Good, Jolly Good.
(Must go off and practice my arpeggios and flattened 9ths.....)

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:13 AM

A dear friend of mine had been a pro for 60 years or so, and near the end he told me that if he gets too old to do a good performance that I should tell him.He did not want to be a "Back stage pain in the ass." I promised him I would. Didn't have to. He realized he was over the hill and he quit on his own.He didn't live long after that, performing was his life.

Maybe someone should record that old man's set and play it back or let him take it home. If he has any awareness left he will know it's time to call it quits.If not, some kind soul should tell him.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Bruce MacNeill
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

I guess this is as good a thread as any to walk out on a limb on. I'm about 6 months into a 2 year plan to see if I have anything to offer musically not necessarily for pay. My last "Public" performance was in about 1963, an amature contest and didn't go well. Since playing in public for performance practice isn't possible I made a few videos that friends could review. I'm not strictly "Folk" and certainly not "Traditional Folk". I'll take advice though, even if it's "Find a day job". If you have the time to spare, please take a look at what I have at http://www.youtube.com/user/bamfiles and tell me what you think. There are a couple of songs, a couple of jazz numbers and a classical piece so far. Incidentally, my sister already told me I need to smile but the camera and mic scare the hell out of me and I'm afraid my teeth will fall out. I'll work on that. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:10 AM

Bruce,
You have a good, natural, musical voice, can sing in tune and have a good sense of rhythm and play a competent guitar - really can't see your problem.
The only comment I would make is as to whether I would want to hear you sing the material you have chosen at a FOLK club - but as that would open a huge can of worms, am not going to mention it here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM

>>Sorry Sinister; can't think of anybody I know who would leave a warm fireside and an exciting episode of 'Corrie' for the privilege of watching somebody having a dump

It's the difference between being a corriephiliac and a coprophiliac

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:41 PM

The way some open their mouths around here, it comes closer to coprophagia - but in reverse.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

If I could play like that I wouldn't care who thought I was out of place.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Bruce MacNeill
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 03:52 PM

Thanks Jim. From anyone on this forum I'll live with "Competent". As to the material, there's no chance you'll find me in an Irish folk club, I'm thinking you're Irish, doing anything let alone this material. I'm just trying to re-learn to play and sing which I could do at 20 but maybe not so much at 60. Like I said, it's a 2 year project to see if I can do it and part of that is public performance. We don't have clubs over here so the Internet is the only audience I can easily get that can't actually throw things at me.

Thanks for your time. Incidentally, my grandmother was Irish and I remember her accent but I can't do it and I promise not to try.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:45 PM

No-one here has responded to my contention that the amatuer song circle, should in no way be loaded with carrying the heavy weight of responsibility for the public reputation that English trad. arts have amongst the general populace of the UK.

I appreciate that I know next to nothing about this subject...
And yet, I do listen to what those hoo nose have to say, and I also care enough to consider it important to get to the bottom of the issue.

Again, my suspicion, warranted or not, is that the amatuer song circle itself actually represents a valuable continuity of the historic 'spirit' of community folk singing?

While the roots run strong and deep, the health of the tree might be suspect. But, I would be disinclined to condemn the flourishing branch for rot in the trunk...

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:44 AM

Rosie:
"loaded with carrying the heavy weight of responsibility"
I don't think anybody is suggesting that they should; rather, what is being suggested, by me anyway, is that everybody who gets up in front of an audience and sings folk songs (not really interested in advocating on behalf of any other genre, especially the 'Great bloody Pretender'!!!), should bear enough responsibility to have done enough work beforehand to at least remember the words, sing in tune and have enough understanding of the text to be able to give an interpretation - after that, the only way is up! Nobody is asking for a virtuoso performance. I got pissed off with the Alex Campbell "Near enough for folk song" attitude forty years ago; now it seems to be standard practice and it has debased the coin.
"a valuable continuity of the historic 'spirit'"
The communities that engendered this spirit died with the Dodo and trying to resurrect them would be an exercise in extreme romanticism. Nowadays people are attracted by skill, understanding, and commitment, not nostalgic tat.
Irish traditional music is enjoying a boom at present; the young practitioners who are now coming to it in their thousands are going to the styles of Johnny Doran, Michael Docherty and Elizabeth Crotty for their examples, not the old worthy scratching out a reel for a kitchen dance; that is why we have a situation here which guarantees that the music is likely to be still being played and listened to right into the middle of this century, at least.   
In Britain, we caught our song tradition when it was very much on its last legs. Our singers, with a tiny handful of notable exceptions, were remembering songs rather than interpreting them. Virtually every singer we ever recorded apologised for "not being able to sing anymore", and told us that we "should have been here 30 years plus ago". We have much to learn from our old singers, but we also have many gaps to fill in, in what they gave us. Surely our tradition is worth presenting at its most competent (at least). No matter how many times it is claimed to the contrary, anybody possessing a modicum of intelligence or sensitivity comes to an art or an entertainment with expectations; fail to meet those expectations, even half-way, and you lose them - and your song, music, whatever suffers.   
"I appreciate that I know next to nothing about this subject."
It really is time you crept out from behind this one Rosie. Your contributions are as incisive and thoughtful as anybody's on this forum - gi'e us a break girl!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:36 AM

I do believe that we should do whatever we do as well as we can, and I also believe that most wish to do so. I also believe that we should not exclude those who may not be as excellent as others - that would surely kill the tree, for we are not all as gifted as Martin Carthy or June Tabor. As Martin said, the worst we could do to the songs would be to fail to sing them. We serve them better by singing them well, whether we preserve them in aspic (the preference of some) or interpret them (my preference), although we ideally need to know how they were in oter to interpret them now.

But I do think that you miss part of the point Jim, when you say that people today are attracted by skill, understanding, and commitment - and thereby imply that they are attracted to those things to the exclusion of all others.

It is contrary to what we see in "pop" music in general. There are some specialist types of modern non-classical music where skill has become a major factor, but there are many where the physical appearance is the predominant factor.

I also suggest that at least in some types of folk music it is indeed the continuity with the past that makes a major contribution to the survivial of the songs (or I imagine tunes although they interest me less). Many Irish sing the songs of rebellion precisely because of what they are. Comparably Orangemen. The sentimental Irish ballad is much sung by all sorts of Irish because of its reflection of the believed courtship customs of the past. Many English surely relish the insults hurled at the French in much maritime song.

I am sure I have heard American singers sing, for example "the Battle of New Orleans" (whether it is traditional or not) because of what it says about the expulsion of the English from what later bacame the USA.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:46 AM

All true Richard, but it's not a case of being "better" or "worse" than anybody, and as far as I can see nobody has ever suggested it is, apart from those who persist in erecting straw men in order to knock them down.
It's back to the old argument - should we have a base-line below which what we do (publicly) is unacceptable (in general terms - we can all all have an 'off' night)?
Surely our music is worth a loud YES
I've shown you mine - now you show me yours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

It's back to the old argument - should we have a base-line below which what we do (publicly) is unacceptable (in general terms - we can all all have an 'off' night)?
Surely our music is worth a loud YES

I agree in principle - I know I work quite hard to make sure my performances are up to what I think is an acceptable standard, and most of the performers I like listening to have clearly done the same. I'm just not sure whether I agree in practice, because I'm not sure what the practical implications are. As I commented higher up, in practice the Competence Police are almost as rarely seen as the Folk Police. Do you think that club MCs and singaround organisers should start taking substandard performers on one side and asking them to account for themselves? I think this would change the atmosphere, and not in a good way - apart from anything else it would seriously deter beginners, even if it wasn't aimed at them.

And Rosie, I second Jim - enough with the little me don't know much about nuffink already! I like the idea that people are - more or less unconsciously - blaming the death of the tradition on the state of the clubs; that would certainly explain why some people (not thinking of you, Jim) seem to feel so strongly about how very awful the clubs are. Course, the trouble with more or less unconscious motivations is that they're more or less unconscious - people aren't likely to own up to them, or not without an expensive course of therapy. (Say what you like about singarounds, they're cheap.)

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM

Pendant time, Richard. The Battle of New Orleans took place in 1815, the combatants not knowing that the War of 1812 was over. It was not about expelling 'the English' from what became the United States, but to prevent the United States from annexing Canada. All Canadians know that they won that war because they don't live in a greater USA.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:57 AM

It was the Webster/Ashburton treaty of 1842 that settled the boundry dispute between the USA and Canada.
No one won the war of 1812.

This phrase, "Close enough for folk music" is a common one. I've heard it many times from many different performers, and I always though it was a left handed way of saying, we are not hard asses about how a song should be sung or played. Leonard Bernstein once said that classical music is mis named, it should be called "precise" music. It is played as it was written. Folk music is flexible. I've used that term myself in this context. Hidebound I'm not.Loose as ashes, that's me.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:24 AM

Ah well, I guess you can lose a battle but win a war. That's to you Terry.

Jim, I am worried about the thin end of the wedge. I know of a person of gender who (alas) teaches music (god help her students) who has single handedly driven about half the musicians and a quarter of the dancers out of a morris side because she persistently tells them that they are shit and that she can tell them how to do it - when in fact the exact converse is true.

Once I accept that people who are not good enough can be told not to perform (whoever tells them) someone like her will level the charge at me.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:27 AM

"Do you think that club MCs and singaround organisers should start taking substandard performers on one side and asking them to account for themselves?"
No, of course not - I think the first teetering step should be to recognise where we are and think about how we are going to improve matters. In other words, plan for change and improvement rather than endlessly debate whether improvement is necessary - as we appear to be doing once again.
"Say what you like about singarounds, they're cheap"
And, in some cases, very nasty.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:53 AM

Pip Radish

how very awful the clubs are.

Thanks a bunch, Pip. Nice to know that the hours of unpaid work that I, the rest of the committee here in Lewes and of all the hundreds of other folk club organisers in the country is appreciated.

Jim Carroll

I think the first teetering step should be to recognise where we are and think about how we are going to improve matters. In other words, plan for change and improvement rather than endlessly debate whether improvement is necessary

Any positive, constructive suggestions then, Jim?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

"Any positive, constructive suggestions then, Jim?"
Some Bryan, but I'd be happier if people:
a   Acknowledged that there was a problem and that it wasn't a figment of our imaginations, thus freeing all of us from wasting our time.
and
b    Didn't take a discussion such as this as a personal attack - it isn't, and it never has been.
Jim Carroll