Performance Ability does it matter?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:05 PM

I will admit I haven't read every post here. I may have missed the post that prestates my comment. Sorry if I am redundant.

I will sit through an entire night of someone who doesn't play well and can't sing as long as they are entertaining. There is a difference between entertainment and performance. I've sat through pristine and clinical piano work that was performed perfectly. But I wasn't entertained. And I have heard a haphazard and slapdashed evening of key board work that had me on the floor in tears. I ws entertained.

It all comes down to the quality of the performer, not the quality of the performance at to whether the show is entertaining.

And as far as stage craft is concerned, it can't be learned anywhere but on a stage.

Don

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Bruce MacNeill
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:50 PM

Not that I want to step in the middle of a dogfight, I would like to thanks those who took the time to look at my videos. My interest was in performance standards and not in musical genre at the time. I appreciate the comments I've received, which have been positive and I'll keep working on my goal of having something fit for presentation within the next year or so although there's nowhere to present it here (Virginia's Eastern Shore now) that I can find.

Ok, at the sound of the bell come out fighting!

Ding!!!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:40 PM

Lol. Was kidding - it would be a veeeerrrrrryyyyy long thread.

:0)

G

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:37 PM

""...start a new thread - What is the definition of Traditional Folk?"
Don't even bloody go there...

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:22 PM

"...start a new thread - What is the definition of Traditional Folk?"

This has been done to death on more than one other thread. Leave it be!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:21 PM

Bryan,
"Oh dear, Jim, I wish you wouldn't write such long posts. It makes it very difficult to respond."
Big subject - for me anyway, but I'll take you posting in smaller bits for now.
"I don't think you have the right to withhold that material"
Every recording we've ever made has been lodged at the National Sound Archive and in ITMA in Dublin, with full listening access - thought you knew this. There is an article in The Living Tradition archive entitled (I think) The Carroll-Mackenzie Collection at the British Library.
Coming from the provinces, I have always realised how difficult it is for anybody outside London to use the British Library, so it's always been a question of whether we take our work further - and whether there are enough people interested to warrant our doing so.
Ours was one of the first British collections to be housed at NSA and I'm proud to say that depositing it there had much to do with their opening up the archive to include British material.
We have issued some of our Irish material on CDs (though thanks to a vicious brain-dead of a reviewer we will think twice before we do this again).
I would still like to know if I was mistaken in thinking that you proposed that the only criterion for having someone sing in public was that they should want to.
Nuff for now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM

Maybe we should start a new thread - What is the definition of Traditional Folk? - Personally I have been led to believe that a folk song tells a story which could equally be true of some much more modern music that is around today............

G

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:54 AM

The question, Insane Suspender, was not whether it ever happened or even whether it should happen but whether it was, as Jim seems to believe, typical of what is going on in UK folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:33 AM

Do you really believe that The Great Pretender is typical fair in UK folk clubs?

From time to time I might segue a rendering of Up on the Roof (Carol King, Laura Nyro, The Drifters et al, but mostly The Drifters, in my heart anyway) into a rendering of The Innocent Hare at our local (generally non-trad.) folk club. I do this because 1) they are both contenders for my favourite song and as such deserving of a similar place in my heart and 2) I believe much of what we (myself included) have come to think of as Traditional Song is a bit of a red herring sold to us by the selectivity of the variously motivated collectors and subsequent folky-spin doctors. However, to paraphrase Mark E. Smith*, I still believe in Trad. Folk dream; Trad. Folk as primal scream. Much choice that I have about it...

Good songs should be sung anywhere, by anyone so moved to sing them, and if that is Folk Music (which it is) then where better a place to sing them than in a Folk Club?

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pejedJ8gm5c

The Fall - Live at the Witch Trials

We're still one step ahead of you
I still believe in the R and R dream
R and R as primal scream
Tied to the Puritan Ethic
Non-sympathetic to spastics
After all this, still a lonely bastard.
Eggheads, boneheads, queue
Queue for them
We were early and we were late
But, still, live at the witch trials....

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:01 AM

As an outsider to regular folk clubs (though no longer a novice), this stuff atill makes no decent sense to me.

Me neither, and yet it's amazing how much territorial preciousness you find with respect of performers of traditional song. I've seen feathers fly with near violence over completely different versions of the same song. God knows, there are enough songs out there, and enough variations abounding, and the song is always greater than the singer, even though a singer might feel they have earned a certain exclusivity which is never the case. This gets back to the Cultural Autism I mentioned over on the What Brought you to Trad? thread. To quote myself, if I may: Folk accommodates both the eccentric & the purist, very often in the same skin; it is this bewildering duality that ensures I'll keep going back for more...

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:57 AM

Read what I said, Shimrod.

"...you invoke your ludicrous notion that the entire UK folk club circuit is dominated by people singing Beatles' songs and singing songs out of tune from their notebooks because they can't be bothered to learn the words."

Jim's position appears to be that ALL UK folk clubs are in terminal decline. I'm sorry that things in your area aren't doing too well but it's down to you and your friends to do something about it. Start a new club and make it clear what is expected. Call it something like The Stricly Traditional Song With No Modern Pop Music Club. If you believe in the music you'll get an audience.

Either that or move.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:48 AM

Oh dear, Jim, I wish you wouldn't write such long posts. It makes it very difficult to respond.

Whatever your and Pat's motives, we would be a lot poorer without your efforts.

Your determination to find the slightest scrap of evidence to prove the parlous state of UK folk clubs IS ludicrous. For instance, "when I read of 'folk' clubs presenting performers singing Misty, Girl From Ipanima and The Great Pretender (yes, and The Beatles). I have listened to Bruce MacNeill's tracks on Youtube and three points emerge - 1) He is a guitarist of considerable ability who clearly cares very much about the standard of his playing, 2) Nowhere does he describe Misty or Girl From Ipanima as folk music, 3) He lives in Massachusetts. Do you really believe that The Great Pretender is typical fair in UK folk clubs? Not in my experience. I expect there are places where people sing Beatles songs. Why shouldn't they? They're good songs. Why does the existence of one sort of music interfere with another?

Your response to this "evidence" of what's going on in UK folk clubs is "Why ******* bother; who gives a shite about Walter's wonderful Van Dieman's Land". Lots of people Jim but you refuse to accept the evidence that they do.

and most of all, who cares what he had to say about his songs and singing.
My instinct, based on my own experiences and on discussions like these is, leave it on the shelf and let posterity decide.

I don't think you have the right to withhold that material. It isn't yours, you merely hold it in trust. I think you have a duty to pass it on so that others can share the pleasure you had from it. Did you tell Walter that you were going to lock it away safe from prying eyes? As I understand, he went to considerable effort to save the songs of his predecessors. You give the impression that you would rather it was lost than that it should fall into evil hands.

From what I have heard of your club, I heartily applaud what you are doing and wish that other clubs could learn from it,

Thank you but I'm sure we can't be unique. I know from personal experience that there are others and hear reports of many more.

but it seems to me that some of the things you have said in the past run totally contrary to your actual achievements.

We do what we do and we achieve what we achieve. Any contradictions are down to your interpretation. We do, as a matter of principal not through laziness, give a floorspot to anyone who wants a floorspot. I have never said "that standards are not just unnecessary, but undesirable in case they 'scare off the less talented', or that a folk club is a place for people with 'no expectations or criteria'". In my experience, people who want to perform, want to perform well. You gave a quote from Ewan MacColl on another thread which, in essence, said that the drive for quality has to come from within; it cannot be imposed from outside. All that anybody else can do is to do their best and try to lead by example.

What we have is a wonderful body of songs which, I believe are as entertaining and inspiring, and moving as they ever where

Indeed we do but a song is not a song if it is not being sung. If someone performs a song to less than perfect standard, someone else may hear it and think "That's a good song...and I could do it better." That can't happen if it's gathering dust on a shelf.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:01 AM

"I think it is good manners not to do a song that you know another is likely to sing."

But why would anyone want to sing the same songs every month? Or so often that it will naturally be assumed that Mr. 'A' will sing 'x' and Mr. 'B' will sing 'y'?

Isn't that boring both for yourself, and for your audience?
It's not as though there's a limited supply of songs going around...

I'm probably treading on gouty toes galore here, but although it may have been 'the way it's always been done' (which IMO has never been a satisfactory reasoning for anything whatever..), but irrespective of that, it seems almost as cliquey as 'my mug' and 'my chair' type syndrom.

And as for Guests not being welcome to perform songs which are repeatedly performed by regulars, I for one would find it more interesting to hear a fresh rendering of song 'x', than hear it sung yet again by Mr. 'x'.

As an outsider to regular folk clubs (though no longer a novice), this stuff atill makes no decent sense to me.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM

Rosie.
young people have energy,they often have new/fresh ideas,and they often have enthusisam.
if all the old organisers, die, or give up,they need to be replaced . without organisers,there will be no venues .

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:38 AM

I think it is good manners not to do a song that you know another is likely to sing. It has been that way since I first went to a folk club, probably some time in the 60s (in those days not because I liked the music, but because it was where the nookie was).

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:29 AM

I once sat on stage with another performer who did stuff right off my album!
Another time, I sat back stage and crossed off each piece as other performers did them.Sure I was irritated, but none of the stuff was legally mine, and I have hundreds of things to choose from.

If I only had a handful of things to do at a given performance and someone nicked one or more of them, I'd be pissed off, but it would be MY problem, not theirs.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:08 AM

"what is needed now are young organisers."

How would young organisers make a real difference? Or what would they do differently, to improve the clubs and increase the interest of younger participants?

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

So - take it as you find it, and give thanks that it's there at all; it is what it is, regardless of how you think it ought to be. These days I'm treating each session and singaround as if it's my last & living it accordingly. I'm taking nothing for granted, because once it's gone, it won't be coming back.
a good philosophy.
what is needed now are young organisers .

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:37 AM

"...you invoke your ludicrous notion that the entire UK folk club circuit is dominated by people singing Beatles' songs and singing songs out of tune from their notebooks because they can't be bothered to learn the words."

It certainly isn't a "ludicrous notion", Snail - it's an accurate description of a sizeable proportion of the folk scene where I live. There are also some brilliant singers where I live, and quite a few beginners working very hard, but they're always in danger of being "dominated" by the 'it's all folk music','it's good enough for folk' and 'anyone who wants to should be able to sing - however dire' brigade(s). I've got to the stage where I really, really, really don't want to waste any more of my evenings sitting through this sort of rubbish!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:34 AM

I have no desire to see the 'tradition maintained', I never have had; the tradition is dead and has been for a long time.

I've often pondered to what extent the tradition was ever alive in the first place - and would we have ever recognised it as such had we been around at the time? Or was it fucked over by the very people who were trying to preserve it? Whatever the case, what we have now is a very recent construct that has already had its day; it plods on regardless, occasionally fretting over its imminent demise, and belatedly wondering how it might attract younger participants even though it did nothing to engender, encourage or facilitate a second generation when it might have had the chance - hence the general decrepitude we find in folk clubs and singarounds today. When the last baby-boomer folk revivalist has popped their clogs, perhaps we might be able to gain some sort of perspective on the Folk Revival as a cultural / historical phenomenon, but here in its very evident autumn I feel the best we can do is accord it the respect of the dying, allowing it to sip the last of the summer wine in the dignity of its idiosyncratic dotage whilst tearfully reminiscing over the rare owld times.

So - take it as you find it, and give thanks that it's there at all; it is what it is, regardless of how you think it ought to be. These days I'm treating each session and singaround as if it's my last & living it accordingly. I'm taking nothing for granted, because once it's gone, it won't be coming back.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:23 AM

...continuation of thread above - stopped by pressing "Submit by mistake...!

Being self-aware means that you know inside how you've done regardless of whatever applause, acclaim, etc., you get from the kind people in the audience.

It's when that self-awareness is missing that complacency sets in.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:22 AM

Jim said of the Snail: some of the things you have said . . . run totally contrary to your actual achievements

That's the contradiction I get too. Lewes is famed for its rightly deserved reputation of high standards of achievement in performance This didn't just happen by consuming Harvey's beer. Did all those famed Sussex trad artists sing and play out before they could? I think not.

Rosie: A guest artist will have come with a setlist, likewise a named session leader. To perform material strongly associated with them without even asking them first if they intend to include the item is not only bad practice but very bad manners.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:20 AM

The capacity for self-awareness and a self-critical faculty are all important for a performer. Folk clubs have traditionally been one environment where would-be singers, musicians and songwriters can develop their skills and learn the art of performance - and most clubs have been and are, on the whole, welcoming and reasonably forgiving places where this development can take place.

All the more important then, in my view, that people who want to perform at the clubs - and take advantage of this welcoming aspect - are self-aware, i.e. they have a standard to which they aspire and a real knowledge of the standard that they've reached. By "real" knowledge I mean the capacity to be honest with themselves about their abilities. It's the same very welcoming atmosphere at clubs that, ironically, can lull a performer into a false sense of their own worth. Being self-aware means that you know inside how you'v

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:07 AM

Bryan,
I really didn't want to go head-to-head with you; been there, done that - I found it upsetting and unproductive then and I have no doubt that I will do so again.
Nobody 'owes' us anything; Pat and I did what we did because we thought it worthwhile and we got an enormous amount of personal pleasure from it.
One of the problems with our field-work is that the bulk of it, particularly that we did with Walter, lies on the shelves untouched - why? - because when I read of 'folk' clubs presenting performers singing Misty, Girl From Ipanima and The Great Pretender (yes, and The Beatles) my reaction invariable is 'Why ******* bother; who gives a shite about Walter's wonderful Van Dieman's Land (especially as it's probably far too long for those who persistently moan about the length of songs) or Rambling Blade (which Walter described as "The best old folk song ever written), and most of all, who cares what he had to say about his songs and singing.
My instinct, based on my own experiences and on discussions like these is, leave it on the shelf and let posterity decide.
I had a thirty year involvement with clubs in the UK and enjoyed most of that time, though I did find it tapered off towards the end, due mainly to a fall in standards and the disappearance of traditional material. The few sorties into the club scene over the last ten years have only served to confirm what I believed to be happening then.
I have no desire to see the 'tradition maintained', I never have had; the tradition is dead and has been for a long time. What we have is a wonderful body of songs which, I believe are as entertaining and inspiring, and moving as they ever where; but more important than that, the provide us with a unique template on which to make new songs (no, I'm not talking about the 'personal - private and extremely introspective singer-songwriter stuff that invariably leaves me with the desire to tap the singer on the shoulder and ask to be allowed in to his/her private little world)'.
" your ludicrous notion that the entire UK folk club circuit is...."
That is not my notion, but I do feel that, when people can claim that the only requirement for performing in public is 'the desire to do so' and that standards are not just unnecessary, but undesirable in case they 'scare off the less talented', or that a folk club is a place for people with 'no expectations or criteria', I worry about the future of the music as a performed art.
Whether you accept it or not, these notions are "dumbing down" and "promoting bad standards". If I have been mistaken and they are not yours, or anybody's opinions, I apologise and unreservedly withdraw any remarks I might have made.
I am certainly not trying to undermine the efforts of any club, whether I agree with what they are doing or not. From what I have heard of your club, I heartily applaud what you are doing and wish that other clubs could learn from it, but it seems to me that some of the things you have said in the past run totally contrary to your actual achievements.
I do find it thoroughly depressing that, once again we are discussing whether standards and ability are necessary rather than how higher standards can be achieved and abilities developed - for me that is a resounding confirmation of how things stand in the folk scene today.
I never started this thread; I have never started a thread on this subject or anything resembling it, but I am happy to participate in discussions such as these because the music is important to me and I would hope that others will have the opportunity to get the same buzz that I got from it over the last four decades.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:59 AM

I know this is a bit of a thread drift, but it doesnt' deserve a thread to itself...

Can someone explain to me why there are 'taboo' songs in clubs, which unofficially 'belong' to certain members?

I can't get my head round why only one person (unless perhaps they wrote the thing themselves) is allowed to sing certain songs - because somehow through performing them repeatedly - they have laid claim to them?

After all isn't it interesting to hear a variety of takes on some songs occasionally? And those that have such a fixed repertoire that they virtually 'own' certain songs, could surely learn a few more so that they are not repeating the same songs over and over again..

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:01 AM

Bruce MacNeill - I would pay good money to hear you perform and play guitar like that. 'Misty' was very well played as was the "Girl From Ipanema'. Great stuff man; keep it up. Wish I could play like that.

Seamuas

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:30 PM

Singalongs and song circle are outside of my cultural experience, as are folk clubs.

Although I don't have the same folk background as others here, I wonder if the following points would still apply to the music and songs that you are talking about.

It seems to me that part of "performance ability" is connecting with your audience. Some people may have a natural ability to do this and may strengthen this ability. Others may have to learn how to do this. Part of connecting with your audience during performances is the "chatting up" your audience that occurs when you introduce songs or in between songs. At the very least it seems to me that a performer has to have some eye contact with his audience. But I also mean more than that.

I think that some people have the personality to be performers and others don't. No matter how well they know their material or their instrument, because they don't have the right kind of on-stage personality (which doesn't have to be outgoing but does have to be appealing in some way/s), they won't be good performers.

Much of what I've read on this thread is about knowing the words to the song and knowing how to play your instrument well, but doesn't r-having performance ability go far beyond that? For instance, African American vocalists talk about finding their own voice, or style (interpreting a song; making the song their own). I'm wondering if this is something that a performer of European and/or Anglo-American folk songs is expected to do. If so, isn't that also a part of learning how to be a good performer?

I realize that there are different expectations for performers and audiences in different music genres, and in different cultural populations. And I ask these questions out of respectful curiousity.

Thanks.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:24 PM

Just an aside:

"Leonard Bernstein once said that classical music is mis-named, it should be called 'precise' music. It is played as it was written."

Not quibbling, just clarifying. There seems to be something of a misconception about classical music that is pandemic among folk musicians based on the idea that because classical musicians are supposed to play the notes as written, there is no creativity or imagination involved. Not so. True, the notes should be played "as written," but the dots on the staff don't turn a living pianist into a mere player piano.   There is plenty of room for creativity and imagination.

For example, just how fast is allegro? This is open to interpretation and no two conductors or musicians completely agree. How loud is forte? How soft is pianissimo? When plucking a guitar string, how much nail? How briskly? Where on the string? Near the bridge for a hard, "glassy" tone, or soft and mellow a bit "north" of the sound hole?

One of the first classic guitar pieces I learned was Tàrrega's Lagrima. The third and fourth measures repeat exactly the same notes as in the first and second measures. My teacher suggested that I play measures three and four just a bit softer than measures one and two. "Like an echo," he said. There is absolutely nothing in the written music, either notes or dynamic markings to indicate anything like this. It was just my teacher's idea. I adopted it and began applying the same idea to other pieces I was learning when I felt it was appropriate.

In fact Lagrima is full of repeats. Same sequence of notes. I play each one of them slightly differently. And none of this is indicated in the written music.

The more one works with this kind of music, the more one sees that even though the notes are all written out, often complete with dynamic markings, there is plenty of room for individual interpretation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:00 PM

"One actually informed us at the outset that he was not going to do any 'A' material

'A' material?"

I took it that he wasn't going to grace us with his best songs.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:48 PM

I've never been to a venue where they locked the doors and refused to let me out.If I don't like what I'm hearing, I leave.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 07:18 PM

One actually informed us at the outset that he was not going to do any 'A' material

'A' material?

It is true that in some clubs ,people are singing with wordsheets, it is also true that in some clubs, people sing Beatles /Buddy Holly songs

It's also true that some clubs where people sing from songsheets and do pop songs are doing really, really well. They're not putting on much traditional material, but they get a lot of people turning out regularly to hear live and unamplified music, and they provide a platform that can just as easily be used by traditional musicians as anyone else.

The longer this discussion goes on, the more I think Rosie had it right. It's not true to say that all the clubs are doing badly; some are doing badly, some are flourishing. Not only that, but if you look at the clubs that are flourishing, there's no single pattern. Some of them have formal or informal quality controls in place, but some don't. Some of them are wholly or mostly traditional, but some aren't. The only constant is that English traditional music is nowhere doing as well as we'd like it to - but I don't think the clubs are to blame. It's easy to blame them - I know I've come home after a disappointing night and thought "no wonder the scene's dying on its arse". But I don't come home after a good night and think "no wonder the scene's thriving" - and one reaction is just as illogical as the other.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:59 PM

Bryan , It is true that in some clubs ,people are singing with wordsheets ,it is also true that in some clubs, people sing Beatles /Buddy Holly songs .
I doubt if either you or I know how sizeable a minority it is .

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:58 PM

If you have the nerve to get up and sing, then do it!!

You'll likely sound awful to begin with, but practice and practice works, we all started somewhere, I know I wasn't born with THAT perfect singing voice, practice over the years has made it far better. Can you imagine if I hadn't bothered in the first place, the thought makes me shiver, as I do enjoy singing.

"Please stop trying to undermine the efforts of those of us who are trying to do exactly what you want."

Exactly!

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:42 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry Bryan, don't really want to cover old ground - have to say I don't temember the Goebbells bit, or the sneering at other clubs.

I could give you the links, but that's not really the point. Those of us who love and work hard to promote traditional music and contemporay song writing that takes its inspiration from the tradition owe you an enormous debt for the work you have done with the travellers in London, in Ireland and (most importantly to me) with Walter Pardon whose songs I hear frequently, mostly from the singing of Will Duke and Dan Quinn. I would love to take part in rational discussions with you about how the tradition can be maintained and brought to a wider audience.

Unfortunately, as soon as we seem to be approaching that point, you invoke your ludicrous notion that the entire UK folk club circuit is dominated by people singing Beatles' songs and singing songs out of tune from their notebooks because they can't be bothered to learn the words. This, quite simply, isn't true. I notice that you haven't denied your willingness to resort to comments about being "crass", "dumbing down" or "promoting bad standards".

Please stop trying to undermine the efforts of those of us who are trying to do exactly what you want.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM

It's one of those topics that goes around and around in ever decreasing circles until it gets dizzy and falls flat on its rear end.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM

Until somebody proves to me that, given time and effort, virtually anybody can sing, I will never understand why the clubs are not full of good singers.
Surely it is far more pleasurable to sing well than sing badly!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:06 PM

Let's face it folks, as long as people are involved in any situation there will be differences of opinion. There is no way around it.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:55 PM

Ebbie,
It's nice to hear a success story and it's also interesting to of the opposite happening.
I repeat, as far as I'm concerned, almost anybody is capable of singing as long as they put in the work.
I also believe it to be part of the folk club's job is to help those who want to sing, not by allowing themselves to humiliate themselves in public, but to put the skills and the experience of club performers at the newer singers disposal.
MBS George
What you are describing is not a club, but a series of concerts interspersed with practice sessions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:50 PM

At North Brighton Singarounds we welcome people of all abilities including 'perpetual beginners'. Our term for who we welcome is "anyone of good intent, regarless of well they sing".

The ones we DON'T want are those who are disruptive or are of BAD intent.   This can include quite competent and accomplishes musicians!!

We do however discourage people who haven't bothered to tune their instrument, habitually read from cribsheets (ok on odd accasions) and people who are not ready for thier song (or mobile phone still on!).

Attitude is what we really consider important rather than ability - and welcome any Mudcat contributor to come along - regardless how how "good" they are in the eyes of the ones who would outlaw anyone who hasn't practiced for two years in front of the mirror before stepping onto the stage.

North Brighton Singarounds - Crown and Anchor pub, Preston Village (main A23 London Road) - Wednesdays (tradish slightly) or Sundays (more general).   Average numbers - about 8/9 rarely more than "magic 14" - so were quite a small session and have chatting time between songs (everyone normally has three songs regardless of numbers) - come and see us!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

There are performers who, whether from lack of respect for the music or the audience or from some kind of idea that it doesn't matter, just kind of mail it in.

In our monthly pay-at-the-door concerts series sometimes it has been evident that the performer had done virtually no preparation. One actually informed us at the outset that he was not going to do any 'A' material, another (in her 40s) performed so kittenishly that we sat aghast- and she is a seasoned performer!, another, just last night, after telling us that he and his daughter had not practiced said that he had no idea what they were going to perform, and proved it. Which was a pity because his daughter has a beautiful and strong voice, and he himself used to be a professional, touring musician.

I'm not worried about it- there are plenty of performers who give us their all- but I do wonder about the phenomenon.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:30 PM

In our weekly singaround of 12-15 people there are some that have dramatically improved. I think specifically of one who for the first two years did almost nothing but finger pick, slowly and carefully. She never sang, except after most of the others had left and then sang in a wispy voice in a key two higher than she should. She never memorized anything and travelled everywhere with her notebooks.

Space was at a premium those days and at times when I thought about cutting back our size I knew it would be she that I would speak to about what she was getting out of our get togethers.

Lo and behold! Nowadays she sings, she fingerpicks in precise, carefully worked out patterns, she has even performed a song or two in some one else's stage set. It turns out that since she sings in lower keys she has a very sweet voice. (She still sings a lot of Donovan, which I'm not that fond of as a general thing but hey, she also likes Michael Smith and John Prine) She still carries her notebook but she has internalized a good many songs.

These days we're glad to see her arrive.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

Obviously if I paid to attend a concert I'd be expecting an enjoyable performance, but like I have said previously, if I go to a singaround and I am not enjoying a particular performance I would pop out of the session temporarily.

G

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

"Forty five odd years and nothing has changed"

Audiences have, imo. Maybe that's part of the problem y'all see.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:26 PM

Sorry Bryan, don't really want to cover old ground - have to say I don't temember the Goebbells bit, or the sneering at other clubs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:04 PM

Yes, Jim, I acknowledge that there are problems but, in my experience, not the ones you describe which may not be figments of your imagination but are sufficiently rare as to be safely ignored.

I'm quite happy to listen to ideas on how to solve the problems of promoting traditional music in a world where being on YouTube seems to be more important than appearing in front of an audience, but it would help if we can avoid accusations of being crass, dumbing down, promoting bad standards and sneering at other clubs. Not being compared to Goebbels would be nice as well.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM

Sorry Pip but you may have noticed that I am a little sensitive to attacks on folk clubs by people who have little to contribute. (Not you, but the people you are talking about.) Your rather complicated sentence starting "I like the idea that..." seemed to take "the death of the tradition" and the awfulness of the clubs as read and merely tried to analyse the response of various people to these "facts". Fascinating I'm sure, but largely irrelevant to what is happening in the real world. It would be more useful to refute this nonsense as, in your last post, you have. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:25 PM

I sincerely hope that nobody would rather watch Coronation Street than go to a folk club or a singaround ,at least people at folk clubs/singarounds are making music.
when I become dictator of the world,the first thing I will do will be, ban all radio /television soaps .

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:29 PM

Like so many others who contribute to this forum, I have been associated with folk clubs and folk music since the 60`s. Then, there were people of all levels of ability to be heard in the clubs. Now there are still people of all levels of ability to be heard in the clubs. Forty five odd years and nothing has changed, apart from the average age of the audience rising, and folk clubs are still going strong. Its my belief it will continue thus so let it lie.

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM

Thanks a bunch, Pip.

Calm down, Snail. I'm not saying I think the clubs are awful - I don't. I'm saying that some commenters believe they are - more specifically, some seem to be very strongly committed to the idea that everything's awful out there.

I'm not complacent - I don't think traditional music in England is doing nearly as well as it could. But I'm not convinced that much of the blame attaches to substandard performers in folk clubs. I've got two regular venues in walking distance. At one, about one in eight performers play traditional material and about one in ten sing unaccompanied; at the other, it's more like 7/8 and 9/10. At both, you'll sometimes hear people who haven't fully mastered the song they're singing (more often at the 'contemporary' club). On an average night they're both buzzing - neither of them needs any more punters.

I don't think either of them would be improved by stricter quality control. The 'contemporary' club would be greatly improved by a few nudges in the direction of traditional music, but that's by the way. (They've had a Canadian night, a Twelve-String night and two Dylan nights; one of these days they ought to have a Traditional Night...)

Subject: RE: Performance Ability does it matter?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

"Any positive, constructive suggestions then, Jim?"
Some Bryan, but I'd be happier if people:
a   Acknowledged that there was a problem and that it wasn't a figment of our imaginations, thus freeing all of us from wasting our time.
and
b    Didn't take a discussion such as this as a personal attack - it isn't, and it never has been.
Jim Carroll