BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:01 PM

Funny, everyone is loopy about nut allergy, but I have a friend who could be killed by a tomato (not in the tin) and he has huge trouble getting it through the heads of caterers waiters and restaurateurs.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: pdq
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:02 PM

"...after control of Afghanistan had changed to the Taliban, it is unlawful under international law." ~ R. Bridge

By the start of the NATO military action, every nation on planet Earth (save one) had withdrawn recognition of the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. Pakistan, the next-door neighbor, continued to recognize the Taliban in public, but worked to help remove them in private.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:18 PM

"But, and it is the big but, it is still an invasion, and because it came too late, after control of Afghanistan had changed to the Taliban, it is unlawful under international law. In that it is like the Iraq invasion - and to be contrasted with Vietnam whre teh US went in (so far as they did) by invitation to support a lawful government, and the first missed opportunity in Iraq when "straight on to Baghdad" would have been a legitimate continuance." – Richard Bridge

1.        "It is still an invasion, and because it came too late, after control of Afghanistan had changed to the Taliban, it is unlawful under international law."

When did this "invasion" take place Richard? What were the units assigned from what countries? I hate to point this out to you but the Taleban never controlled Afghanistan, they controlled quite a lump of it but never all of it.

They fought a "civil war" against a group called the Northern Alliance which was still ongoing in late 2001, and it was that civil war situation that the Americans exploited.

As far as I am aware only three countries in the world recognized the Taleban as representing the government of Afghanistan (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, IIRC). The United Nations most certainly did not recognize the Taleban as the government of Afghanistan, and as no invasion took place it could hardly be illegal.

2.        "In that it is like the Iraq invasion - and to be contrasted with Vietnam where the US went in (so far as they did) by invitation to support a lawful government,"

Nothing remotely "like the Iraq invasion" – Ever heard of the Bonn Agreement Richard?

"In December 2001, a number of prominent Afghans met under UN auspices in Bonn, Germany, to decide on a plan for governing the country; as a result, the Afghan Interim Authority (AIA) - made up of 30 members, headed by a chairman - was inaugurated on 22 December 2001 with a six-month mandate to be followed by a two-year Transitional Authority (TA), after which elections are to be held.

One of the sections of the Bonn Agreement envisaged the establishment of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force."

The first formation of troops to be sent to Afghanistan Richard, were Royal Marines of 40 & 45 Commando and SBS – their task to secure Bagram Air Base so that Hamid Karzai could return to the country for the Loya Jirga in 2002. These troops were sent on behalf of the UN and at the invitation of the Afghan leaders. The first US formation of US troops to deploy to Afghanistan was the 10th Mountain Division.

The US supported the Northern Alliance forces in their fight against the Taleban with air power and a few JTAC's – There never were any "invasion" troops.   


3.        "and the first missed opportunity in Iraq when "straight on to Baghdad" would have been a legitimate continuance."

Oh an opportunity was undoubtedly missed towards the end of "Desert Storm" in 1991.

It would not however have been a legitimate continuance as the remit of that particular assembled UN Force was clearly defined – the expulsion of Iraqi troops from Kuwait.

However if you do believe that "straight to Baghdad" was a legitimate continuance you can then have no objection to the US invasion of 2003 as Saddam Hussein and Iraq had failed to comply with the Safwan "cease-fire" Agreement, therefore ANY combatant was at liberty to resume hostilities.

In 1991 when "Stormin' Norman" agreed to the meeting at Safwan, the Saudi's had already told him that the Arab members of the coalition would withdraw from the coalition if any attempt was made to remove Saddam Hussein and topple his regime.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: BobBiggart
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:54 PM

Spleen, I see what you're saying, sorry if I came over a bit sharply-and its true there are people like that.

Actually, most people's experience of those who follow Islam would be yours; like most of us- most Muslim's simply want to practice their faith, work, and get on with life. I am married to a Muslim, I live a good part of the year in a moderate Islamic country- and your experience is, by and large, my experience. However, on the other hand, I think I now have an insight into the other side of the coin- fundamentalist Islam. I acknowledge that comes in many shades, but I am worried that in the UK we, and I include moderate British Muslim's- haven't got a handle on how to manage the radical element.
It is not clear as to just how far mainstream Britain is prepared to accommodate/tolerate the elements of this fundamental interpretation of the Koran. It is poorly understood and is a very divisive issue. And if I were to stand up at 'Speaker's Corner' in Hyde Park and say what I am saying here I'd most likely be branded a racist and Islamaphobic- such is the nature of this issue.

Our laws of course provide a backstop to much of it and our social norms provide the rest. My argument is that we should firmly resist, by peaceful and democratic means of course- any move, by any group or religion that would challenge the UK's hard-won secular laws, freedoms and social norms. I am afraid; there are those who are openly and actively working in the name of Islam to do just that. Old Palace School is just the tip of the iceberg.

Hysteria? No not hysteria, but a marked concern. A ways back I gave a link to a British TV channels investigation into the teachings and influence of radical Islam in many mosques in the UK- here it is again. This will give you a snapshot of some of what we are facing in the UK.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e440aa2471

This is a Channel 4 Documentary on the state of affairs in many of Britain's Mosques and gives an insight into the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

1. Like it or not, and paperwork it how you will, the Taleban de facto ruled Afghanistan until the US bombed the country back into the stone age - and for long enough to become the constitutional rulers by right of conquest.

2. The Bonn Agreement was paperwork to try to legitimate an intended conquest. Didn't work out that way did it?

3. Hot pursuit by the request of the originally invaded country - Kuwait - would have done just fine for authority. Again, like it or not, Iraq was not in breach of ceasefire terms and the pretence that it was building weapons of mass destruction was just that, a cynical pretence. Saddam Hussein was evil - but he was the legitimate ruler of Iraq and the war to remove him was an illegal invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:16 AM

noted without comment:

"Some parents in London could face possible court action for keeping their young children home from school to avoid lessons on gay and lesbian history. The Daily Mail reports the grade school will not excuse the absences despite objections from the parents on moral and religious grounds. They say the content is more appropriate for older students.

One story included in the lesson was a fairy tale about a prince who turns down princesses before falling in love with one of their brothers. Another had two male penguins falling in love in the New York City Zoo. Students who missed the lessons are being viewed as truants.Their parents could be fined and, one report says, possibly sent to jail."

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: meself
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:48 AM

Okay, here's a comment then: when is the last time a parent was fined or sent to jail for their children missing a day or two of school? Is there any reason on earth that this "one report" should be taken seriously? Isn't this a bit like "reporting" that someone "could be" put in stocks for naming their donkey after a bishop?

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:55 AM

"the Taleban de facto ruled Afghanistan until the US bombed the country back into the stone age"

Richard, you obviously have not seen any photographs of Kabul after the Taleban had finished with it during the civil war. Air strikes called in during the ousting of the Taleban by the Northern Alliance were against military positions and not against any centres of population. Like it or not Afghanistan was already back in the stone age thanks to the efforts of the Taleban from 1994.

So it is perfectly alright "to become the constitutional rulers by right of conquest" now that's interesting in this day and age. Again you can have no objection to GWB's invasion of Iraq no matter how black the left try to paint it. That obviously ignores the simple reality that what was won by right of conquest can be lost by right of conquest - it does not only work one way - TRUE??

The conference in Bonn was called for and held under the auspices of the United Nations on the grounds that Afghanistan was a failed state without any form of government. Now tell me what "right of conquest" did it intend to legitimise??

"Hot pursuit by the request of the originally invaded country - Kuwait - would have done just fine for authority" The UN force engaged in "Desert Storm" were on shakey ground entering into Iraq as far as they did. I believe that 101st Airbourne and the 3rd French Foreign Legion were within 90 minutes of Baghdad. Read the mandate of United Nations Security Council Resolutions relating to the Invasion of Kuwait to see what their mission was - Removal of Saddam Hussein from power or invading Iraq was not included as an option - Hence the "cease-fire" at Safwan.

So "Iraq was not in breach of ceasefire terms" well Richard, I believe that you are in the legal profession, I know of 602 Kuwaiti Nationals who would disagree with that statement of yours, were they still alive. They were specifically mentioned in the Safwan Agreement and in the subsequent UN Resolutions that formalised the Cease-fire for implementation. Instead of being returned to Kuwait as they should have been, Saddam Hussein had them murdered, how clear and obvious a breach of cease-fire terms has it got to be Richard before you see it??

You should read for yourself United Nations Security Council Resolutions 678; 687 and 1441 and it can be seen that Iraq was clearly in breach of the cease-fire signed in April 1991 at Safwan and as such any combatant nation who formed part of the UN coalition was at liberty to resume hostilities. Like it or not, they would not need the permission of the UN to do so, like it or not the UN cannot physically fight wars only member states can, like it or not the UN does not sign cease-fires nor armistaces only those member states engaged in hostilities can do that.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:01 AM

"Iraq was not in breach of ceasefire terms "


False statement.

LOOK at the UN report by Blix, he states that Iraq is NOT in compliance in several aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

CarolC you were asked to provide examples where Britain forced its culture down the indigenous peoples' throats (often at the point of a gun). You didn't give us any examples as you were asked to, probably because you are too lazy and decided to let your natural ill-informed bias and misconceptions prevail. What you have given us is a list of regions:

"Parts of North America, Australia, parts of Asia, Africa, Ireland, Newfoundland, numerous smaller islands. The British either subjugated the indigenous people in these places and forced their own culture on those indigenous people, or they just wiped them out." - CarolC, 09 Mar 09 - 01:22 PM

THE BRITISH EMPIRE:

The British Empire comprised the dominions, colonies, protectorates, mandates, and other territories ruled or administered by the United Kingdom (UK), that had originated with the overseas colonies and trading posts established by England in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. At its height it was the largest empire in history and, for over a century, was the foremost global power. By 1922, the British Empire held sway over a population of about 458 million people, one-quarter of the world's population, and covered more than 13,000,000 square miles (33,670,000 km²): approximately a quarter of Earth's total land area.

CURRENT BRITISH POSSESSIONS & DEPENDENCIES:

•        The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
o        England
o        Wales
o        Scotland
o        Northern Ireland
•        Isle of Man
•        Channel Islands (Duchy of Normandy)
o        Jersey
o        Guernsey
o        Alderney
o        Sark
•        Gibraltar, seized 1704, ceded by Spain 1713
•        British Indian Ocean Territory, created 1965
o        Chagos Archipelago
        Salomon Islands
        Peros Banhos Atoll
        Three Brothers, Eagle, and Danger Islands
        The Egmont Islands
        Diego Garcia
•        Turks & Caicos Islands, 1678, to Bahamas 1799, to Jamaica 1873, administered by Bahamas 1965 - 1973
•        Bermuda, 1609, to Virginia 1612, separate 1684
•        Cayman Islands, 1655
•        British Virgin Islands, 1666
•        Anguilla, 1650
•        Montserrat, 1632
•        Pitcairn Islands, 1838
•        Phoenix Islands, etc.
o        Phoenix Group
        Phoenix Island
        Sydney Island
        Hull Island
        Gardner Island
        Canton Island, US-UK condominium
        Enderbury Island, US-UK condominium
o        Christmas Island
o        Fanning Island
o        Washington Island
o        Starbuck Island
o        Malden Island
•        St. Helena & Dependencies
o        St. Helena Island, 1659
o        Ascension Island, 1815
o        Tristan da Cunha Group
        Tristan da Cunha Island, 1816
        Inaccessible Island
        Nightingale Island
o        Gough (Diego Alvarez) Island
•        Falkland Islands, 1765
o        South Sandwich Islands, 1775, separate from Falklands 1985
o        South Georgia, 1775, separate from Falklands 1985
•        British Antarctic Territory
o        South Shetland Islands
o        South Orkney Islands
o        Antarctic Peninsula

MEMBERS OF THE BRITISH COMMONWEALTH OF NATIONS:

In addition to the British Possessions & Dependencies detailed above the following are current members of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

•        Malta, 1800, independent 1964, republic 1974
•        Cyprus, 1878, independent 1960, Turkish invasion, occupation of northern Cyprus 1974
•        India, independent 1947 (Bharat, Pakistan [out of Commonwealth 1972-1989], Bangladesh 1971)
o        Princely States (Protectorates of British India)
        Hyderadbad
        Jammu & Kashmir
        Mysore
        Orchha
        Bahawalpur
        Travancore
        Rajputana (23 states)
        Jodhpur
        Jaisalmer
        Bikaner
        Jaipur
        Udaipur
        Raigarh
        Dir
        Patna
        Khairpur
        Palanpur
        Las Bela
        Morvi
        Partabgarh
        Surguja
        Changbhakar
        Korea
        Kolhapur
        Bundi
        Bastar
        Narsinghgarh
        Porbandar
        Sheopur
        Bahawalpur
        Saraikela
        Rajkot
        Kapurthala
        Rewa
        Dhenkanal
        Raj Nandgaon
        Bharatpur
        Jhabua
o        Andaman Islands
o        Nicobar Islands
o        Sikkim, Princely State, 1861, protectorate of India, 1950, annexed by India, 1975
•        Ceylon, 1795, independent 1948 (Sri Lanka)
•        Seychelles, 1810, independent 1975
o        Mahé Island
o        Amriante Isles
o        Farquhar Group
o        Cosmoledo Group
•        Maldives, 1887, independent 1965
•        Mauritius, 1810, independent 1968
o        Rodrigues
o        Cargados Carajos Shoals
o        Agalega Island
•        Malaysia, created and independent 1963
o        Straits Settlements, Crown colony 1867
        Singapore 1819, to Malaysia 1963, independent 1965
        Penang 1786, to Malaya 1948, to Malaysia 1963
        Malacca 1824, to Malaya 1948, Malaysia 1963
        Labuan, 1846, to North Bornea 1890, to Singapore 1907, to Straits Settlements 1912, to North Borneo 1946
o        Malaya, Federation 1957, independent 1963 as Malaysia
        Johore
        Kedah
        Kelantan
        Negri Sembilan
        Pahang
        Perak
        Perlis
        Selangor
        Trengganu
o        British North Borneo, 1877, to Malaysia 1963 (Sabah)
o        Sarawak, to James Brooke 1841, Crown Colony 1946, to Malaysia 1963
•        Brunei, protectorate 1888, independent 1984
•        British North America
o        Canada, dominion 1867
        Ontario (Upper Canada), 1759, autonomous 1840
        Quebec (Lower Canada), 1759, autonomous 1840
        Nova Scotia, 1717, autonomous 1854
        New Brunswick, 1759, autonomous 1854
        Prince Edward Island, 1759, autonomous 1854
        Northwest Territories
        Yukon Territory
        Manitoba
        Alberta
        Saskatchewan
        British Columbia, 1849 (Vancouver Island) 1858
o        Newfoundland, 1583, to Canada 1949
•        British Guiana, 1796/1815, independent 1966 (Guyana)
•        British Honduras, 1638/1786, independent 1981 (Belize)
•        Bahama Islands, 1670, independent 1973
•        West Indies Federation, federated 1956
o        Leeward Islands, federated 1871
        Antigua, 1632, & Barbuda, 1628, independent 1981
        St. Kitts, 1624, & Nevis, 1628, independent 1983
o        Windward Islands
        St. Lucia, 1815, independent 1979
        Grenada, 1763, independent 1974
        St. Vincent, 1763, & the Grenadines, independent 1979
        Dominica, 1763, independent 1978
o        Barbados, 1627, independent 1966
o        Jamaica, 1655, independent 1962
o        Trinidad, 1797, & Tobago, 1763, independent 1962
•        Australia, Commonwealth 1901
o        Queensland, autonomous 1859
o        New South Wales, 1788, autonomous 1855
o        Victoria, autonomous 1855
o        South Australia, autonomous 1855
o        Western Australia, 1829, autonomous 1890
o        Tasmania, 1825, autonomous 1855
o        Northern Territory
o        Coral Sea Islands Territory
o        Norfolk Island & Philip Island
o        Lord Howe Island & Ball's Pyramid
o        Cocos (Keeling) Islands & Christmas Island
o        McDonald Islands, Shag Island, & Heard Island
o        Nauru, 1914, trustee of Aus, NZ, & UK, 1947, independent 1968
o        Papua-New Guinea, independent 1964
        Papua, Queensland 1883, Australia 1901, to Papua-New Guinea
        New Guinea & Bismark Archipelago, from Germany 1914, Australia Trust Territory 1919, to Papua-New Guinea
•        Solomon Islands, protectorate 1893, independent 1978
•        New Zealand, 1769, autonomous 1853
o        Cook Islands, etc.
        Cook Islands
        Rarotonga
        Aitutaki
        Atiu
        Mitiaro
        Mangaia
        Suwarrow Atoll
        Nassau
        Palmerston Atoll
o        Niue Island
o        Tokelau Islands, etc.
        Tokelau Islands (Union Group)
        Atafu
        Nukunono
        Fakaofo
        Rakahanga (Tongareva) Atoll
        Penrhyn Atoll
        Manihiki Atoll
o        Auckland Islands & Campbell Island
o        Antipodes Islands
o        Bounty Islands
o        Chatham Islands
o        Kermadec Islands
        Raoul (Sunday) Island
        Macauley Island
        Curtis Island
        L'Esperance Rock
o        Western Samoa, from Germany 1914, independent 1962 (Samoa)
•        Tonga, protectorate 1900, independent 1970
•        Hew Hebrides, 1887, Anglo-French Condominium 1906-1980, independent (Vanuatu)
•        Gilbert Islands, 1892, independent 1979 (Kiribati)
•        Elice Islands, 1892, independent 1978 (Tuvalu)
•        Union of South Africa, 1910, Republic of South Africa, out of Commonwealth 1961-1994, rejoins Commonwealth 1994
o        Cape Colony, 1795
o        Natal, 1843
o        Orange Free State, protectorate 1848, independent 1854, annexed 1902
o        Transvaal, protectorate 1877, independent 1881, annexed 1902
o        Prince Edward Islands
o        Walvis Bay, 1884, to Southwest Africa
o        Southwest Africa, from Germany 1915, independent 1990 (Namibia)
•        Swaziland, 1890, independent 1968
•        Basutoland, 1868, independent 1966 (Lesotho)
•        Bechuanaland, 1885, independent 1966 (Botswana)
•        MOZAMBIQUE, former Portuguese colony, joins Commonwealth 1995 - never part of the British Empire
•        East Africa
o        Kenya, 1887, independent 1963
o        Tananyika, from Germany 1917, independent 1961 (Tanzania 1964)
o        Zanzibar, 1890, independent 1963 (Tanzania 1964)
o        Uganda, 1888, independent 1962
•        Rhodesia & Nyasaland
o        Northern Rhodesia, 1889, independent 1964 (Zambia)
o        Southern Rhodesia, 1888, revolt 1965-1980 (Rhodesia), independent 1980 (Zimbabwe)
o        Nyasaland, 1889, independent 1964 (Malawi)
•        West Africa
o        Sierra Leone, 1787, independent 1961
o        Gold Coast, 1662, independent 1957 (Ghana)
o        The Gambia, 1661, independent 1965
o        Nigeria, 1861, independent 1960
o        CAMEROON, former German colony & French mandate, joins Commonwealth 1995 - NEVER part of the British Empire
        British Cameroon, from Germany 1919, to Nigeria & Cameroon 1961


FORMER BRITISH POSSESSIONS

•        Eire 1172, independent 1921, Republic 1938, leaves Commonwealth 1949
•        Heligoland, 1807, to Germany 1890
•        Hanover, 1714, independent 1837, to Prussia 1866
•        Ionian Islands, 1809, to Greece 1864
•        Minorca, 1708-1756, 1763-1782, 1798-1802, from & to Spain
•        Egypt, shares of Suez Canal purchased 1875, country occupied 1882, protectorate 1914, independent 1922, Suez Canal occupied until 1956, Canal nationalized 1956
o        Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, condominium 1898-1956, independent 1956
•        Palestine, occupied 1917, mandate 1921, independent 1948 (Israel; Palestine to Jordan & Egypt, territories occupied by Israel 1967)
•        Transjordan, occupied 1917, mandate 1921-1946, independent 1946 (Jordan 1949)
•        Iraq, occupied 1918, mandate 1921-1932, independent 1932
•        Kuwait, protectorate 1904, independent 1961
•        Bahrain, protectorate 1882, independent 1971
•        Muscat & Oman, Treaty 1798, independent 1971
•        Qatar, protectorate 1916, independent 1971
•        Trucial States(/Coast/Oman), protectorate 1820, independent 1971 (United Arab Emirates)
o        Abu Dhabi
o        Ajman
o        Dubai
o        Al Sharqah
o        Umm al Qawain
o        Ras al Khaimah
o        Fujairah
•        Aden, 1839, independent 1967 (South Yemen)
•        Afghanistan, First Afghan War 1838-1842, Second Afghan War 1878-1880, protectorate 1880-1921, Third Afghan War 1919-1921, Soviet Russian occupation 1979-1989
•        Burma, 1826 (Arakan) 1852 (Lower Burma) 1886 (Upper Burma), independent 1948 (Myanmar 1991)
•        Weihai Wei, 1898, to China 1930
•        Hong Kong, 1841, to China 1997
•        United States of America, independent 1783
•        Mosquito Coast, 1655, to Nicaragua 1855
•        Surinam, 1651, Dutch Guiana 1668
•        Fiji, 1874, independent 1970, leaves Commonwealth 1987
•        British Somaliland, 1884, to Somalia 1960
•        Eritrea, 1941-1952, to Ethiopia 1952

Tell you what CarolC you will find very very few examples to illustrate the points you tried to make of native culture being erradicated and British culture being rammed down peoples throats, or indeed of any deliberate government policy of wiping out local populations.

You'll find very few examples of lands taken by conquest and a large number that fell into the British sphere of influence through trade. Britain was not large enough a country to "conquer" those lands we simply had not got the population to do it.

You will find a large number of "Protectorates", "Dependencies" and "Federations" not so many "colonies". For example India was never a British colony all the states of India were independent and they all became "Protectorates".

Subject: RE: BS: School Gym forced to shut by Muslims UK
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM

The Younghusband expedition?