BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM

Therefore, I find your characterization of it as "an ass" to be cynical, self-serving, and pointless

Not my characterisation. I don't mind being likened to Charles Dickens but doubt very much if I ever will achieve his fame. Cynical? Maybe, but true. Self-serving? If you mean it was used to underline a point then, yes, I suppose so. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Pointelss? As pointless as starving a child to death in the name of god? Maybe, but it does less harm.

As to blowing off steam. Not at all; just stating my opinion. I would not get annoyed over anyones mental condition. Unless they told me that I had to take notice of their imaginary friends as well:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:41 PM

About a good 50% of everyone's beliefs are delusional

And what good percentage of everyone's utterances are confidently presented as if they were self-evident truths... and without a shred of evidence? Must try it. It also allows you the advantage of appearing to take the moral high ground without actually doing anything to get there.

Little Hawk, are you offering lessons in this technique?

Meanwhile, back amongst the sinners, I would put it to you that the various belief systems at the hearts of our many religions and variants of religions are not so much delusional as contested.

As for the woman in the article, the only thing we can categorically say at present is that she was not right on some level. Whether this was due to the cult she was in or pre-existing issues or something entirely different, none of us here can say. It's a profoundly horrible story. Not one you'd want to remedy by demanding further blood is shed, though.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:53 PM

How the brain creates God, from New Scientist. An interesting sidebar.



A

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:28 PM

When does a system of belief become a religion? For example, will vegetarianism or environmentalism become religions? Or even football. These systems especially in their more extreme forms certainly share the characteristics of a religion, such as blind faith. Does there have to be a god?
When I go to a conference, I often recieve a form about dietary requirements; it's not about allergies etc but are you a vegetarian, are you Jewish etc. No, I'm just a fussy bugger: but that doesn't count, it seems.
And when does a religion become a mental illness? Disordered thinking, delusions, hallucinations etc are shared by schizophrenia and certain religious systems.
And how do I start a religion? I want believers to give me lots of money and be surrounded by beautiful priestesses. You need charisma: I'd better forget it!
Doc John

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM

The law is an imperfect attempt to deal with absolutely EVERYTHING that goes wrong...or might go wrong...in an immensely complicated human existence filled with millions of unique and unpredictable individuals who might do anything at any time. It will never provide the perfect solutions we all yearn for.

Therefore, I find your characterization of it as "an ass" to be cynical, self-serving, and pointless. You're just blowing off steam.

That, of course, is the main form of activity people indulge in around here most of the time, so why should I be surprised?

You're all in a state of delusion uniquely your own, and yet you spend your days pointing the finger at somebody else and saying: "He's so delusional."

We're all delusional. It's the basis of the human ego to be delusional. It delights in its delusions. The more honest among us might have the decency to admit it, but that's a very rare thing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:19 PM

Believing that your imaginary friend told you to kill your neighbour is delusional yet believeing that god told you to do it is not. No wonder they say the law is an ass...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM

About a good 50% of everyone's beliefs are delusional. That applies to both the religious and the non-religious in this world.

They sure enjoy pointing out the others' delusions, however. It makes them both feel way superior.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM

It's not a matter of whether we are going to die or not--there's plenty of evidence everybody takes that ride. The question is how you define the ride.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:22 PM

No, the article did not say that "she wasn't delusional to believe her son would be resurrected because so did the rest of the cult." Her lawyer said that. Lawyers say all kinds of strange things in an effort to get their clients off.

Oh yeah...and "the mother had been in the ROTC, i.e. had already had plenty of practice in blindly obeying immoral and murderous orders." Well, no - she had been in high school junior ROTC. The most immoral order she probably ever had to follow was to clean under her fingernails.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM

At best, religion is wishful thinking. We don't wanna die, so we won't.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:44 PM

Mrrzy - It's just past experience with these types of threads. You've pretty much said in that past that anyone who has a belief system for a God or a higher power is delusional. That all of us are in the same boat. No qualifiers, no delineations. Jim Jones and me are just two peas in a pod. Both guilty of thought crimes. If I've put words in your mouth set me straight.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:29 PM

What worries me is the idea that you can have delusions that aren't labeled as such if others share the delusion. That's what the article said - she wasn't delusional to believe her son would be resurrected because so did the rest of the cult.

Wesley, I don't see anyone but you saying what you're afraid of people saying... I think you're jumping the gun on thread hijacking.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM

Delusion and religion are neither an either/or thing nor a both/both thing. One can be religious and rational, and one also can be religious and delusional. One can be rational and not religious. One can also be both rational and delusional.

They are apples and oranges that can be bagged separately, or together.

Unless, of course, when relied upn as a convenient excuse to renew old thoughtlessnesses. :~) From eithew "side" of the ageless debate.

It's essentially a narcissistic loop with no out:

"You're more XXX than I am."

"No, YOU are."

"You don't repect meeeeee...."

"NO, YOU do not respect MEEEE..."


There is actually life outside this locked-tight, narcissistic argument mode. It's a nice one, actually! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:04 PM

Sigh - Yes - Let's find the unusual nut cases out there that use religion as an excuse for their whacked out behavior and use that as the yardstick to claim that all religion is bad. That's using logic. Two and two equals five. And all folk singers play the banjo. I know that because I saw Pete Seegar once on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:13 AM

Must forfeit her life? Not on your nelly.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:32 AM

At the end of the day,no amount of legislative obfuscation or beaurocratic self-importance can mask, alter,deny,ignore,or justify the fact that this person has committed an horrific ,obscene,unthinkable and COMPLETELY unforgivable or excusable crime, whatever her beliefs or motivations might have been, and,therefore,she MUST forfeit her own life .
      Never mind HER beliefs ; what about the "beliefs" of the MAJORITY of the rest of us ?? Which is that she should die, I think you'll find,although,sadly,our so -called "civilised " governments would never agree.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:59 AM

I see from the Washington Post story that the mother had been in the ROTC, i.e. had already had plenty of practice in blindly obeying immoral and murderous orders. I guess the American justice system doesn't regard following the military hierarchy as delusional either.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:07 AM

Surely, religions rely on delusion for their very existence.

Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs/delusions unless they impact adversely on other people – especially children. By 'impact' I mean everything from physical and mental abuse to evangelising – which can, in itself, range from mildly annoying or extremely disturbing, depending on individual circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:17 AM

frogprince--You have my condolences on the loss of your friend. The loss of a friend, for any reason, is painful enough, but the circumstances you've described make the burden many times more difficult to handle. I wish you strength in coming to terms with the many and conflicting thoughts and feeling that must come.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM

Recipe for disaster: Take a psychotic individual who combines delusions of grandeur and at least some measure of charisma. Add even one other person who is at best unstable enough to be very vulnerable and suggestible. Hope against hope that no one dies a horrible death.
Now we'll have some people here pretty much implying that this is what is to be expected of anyone in the world with religious faith. I don't know that there is any way to even try to reason with that level of bitter hatred.
At the same time, I don't know that you can say that a belief isn't religion because it's been hopelessly twisted by a demented individual or group of demented individuals who have gravitated together.
So go ahead; fight it out. The people involved in this incident are totally incompetent, whether from lack of intelligence or lack of sanity. They're also totally culpable for the horrific death of a little child. I have no idea how to sort out the legal definitions.
We've just lost a good friend to murder-suicide; he was the perpetrator; it had nothing to do with religious belief, and he had never been suspected of anything more threatening than a degree of emotional immaturity. I have no stomach right now for the kind of exchange I anticipate here.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:17 PM

But the DSM has been a political document since its first edition. The fact that a group can agree on something does not mean it is not a delusion, or they would be no need for the psychiatric terms from mass hypnosis and mob-think.

It is not true to say "IF religion==>THEN not delusion"

It is not true to say "IF religion ==> then Delusion", either. Nor is it true to say "If delusion==> THEN religion."

There are such thing as religious experiences, as well as religious delusions, and these may be intersecting sects. This while subject was well covered by William James, for goodness' sake.

Make an article of unquestioned faith about space-time by asserting anything of a spiritual nature is delusion is really adventurous, as well as being illogical.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 10:29 PM

The definition of the term "delusion", from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), of the American Psychiatric Association, specifically excludes religious beliefs. So, yes, according to the APA, "it's not delusional if it's religious".

I strongly doubt that ANY religion requires starving a child to death. Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 10:20 PM

Pretty much the same thing, I'd say!

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 10:10 PM

And then, there's religion AS delusion...

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 09:42 PM

You'd think that after some months in a suitcase they'd be pretty sure the kid was dead and going to stay that way.

Murder is murder.

Subject: RE: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 09:34 PM

Yes - what about the other children in the cult? Is anyone protecting them from religion or delusions?

Subject: BS: It's not delusional if it's religious?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 09:24 PM

Check out this article in today's Washington Post. Apparently this cult deliberately starved/thirsted a 16-month old to death for not saying Amen; then they carried his dead body around in a suitcase for months, waiting for his resurrection; now Mom is facing murder charges which must be dropped if the poor kid actually does come back to life. There are phrases like these:

Her attorney, Steven Silverman, said the doctors found that her beliefs were indistinguishable from religious beliefs, in part because they were shared by those around her. (para break) "She wasn't delusional, because she was following a religion," Silverman said, describing the findings of the doctors' psychiatric evaluation.

and

Silverman said he and prosecutors think Ramkissoon was brainwashed and should have been found not criminally responsible; prosecutors declined to comment. Although an inability to think critically can be a sign of brainwashing, experts said, the line between that and some religious beliefs can be difficult to discern. (para) "At times there can be an overlap between extreme religious conviction and delusion," said Robert Jay Lifton, a cult expert and psychiatrist who lectures at Harvard Medical School. "It's a difficult area for psychiatry and the legal system."

??!?

Comments?