When NOT to sing

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:27 PM

The onus should never be put on the singer to ask an audience not to join in; Richard Bridge and Mario (who told us a singer has no rights) have made it perfectly clear why. I know singers who would hate the practice but would be far too polite to object. It happens very occasionally over here, usually when the culprit is drunk. They are usually deal with by a member of the audience calling out "One singer - one song", which invariably does the trick.
Can I ask - would anybody go to say a poetry reading at the local library and join in with the reader if they happened to know the poem - or likewise to a play by an amature dramatic society. It's not just confined to music - it's a simple case of good manners and courtesy as far as I'm concerned.
Somebody earlier mentioned mouthing through a song they knew along with the singer - why not confine your responses to that?
You didn't respond to my Walter Pardon example, so presumably you would be prepared to discomfort a nice old singer at one of your club nights.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:55 PM

I was going to leave this (yet another) going nowhere threads, but Carroll`'s attempt at guilt tripping:

"You didn't respond to my Walter Pardon example, so presumably you would be prepared to discomfort a nice old singer at one of your club nights"

This quite simply beyond the pale, though why I sould be surprised by this response, I don't know, it' typical!

I have no idea which part of " it's ultimately the musician that makes the decision as to whether there is audience participation or not, during her/his performance" Carroll doesn't understand

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 01:52 PM

Because he's old? We are not an insensitive audience Jim, I didnt think it applied to us.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:49 PM

No, because he was a nice man who wouldn't dream of asking somebody not to sing - yet on numerous occasions it threw him - on at least three he dropped songs from his repertoire because of harmonised choruses taken at half speed by audiences.
Sorry to keep on with this, but it is fairly basic.
I have sat in the audience next to the neighbour from hell who thought she could hold a tune, but couldn't.
I have heard of 'singers from the audience' who insisted on singing their own versions of songs; or ones who would sing, say, every other line, or speak the words.
Are there any rules to the practice of encouraging audiences to sing or can everyone have a go?
"I have no idea which part of......."
I'm really not addressing you - please speak when you're spoken to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:15 PM

This gentleman is not the typical example of someone I would book at the club. Normally, we have pa'd singers with instruments who are more contemporary than Walter Pardon. A comparison between him and the type of act we have would be flawed.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:23 PM

I agree with Marje, it's a community entertainment thing, grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:06 PM

........grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!"
Have you met our marksman friend? He's a bad-mannered lout too - you should find you have a lot in common.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:21 PM

Me a lout, simply because I see you as a defficet to the "folk" communities at large, rather an asset, as some appear to do? I see your last couple of postings a desparation born of knowing you've been sussed.

Your credibility appears to be close to zero. Stay in your archives and let those of us who actually want to participate in performance and in the clubs,do so. As I believe I've said before, you talk a good gig, and that's about all.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:37 PM

One last thing, and I'm leaving this alone. I can't recommend highly enough Colin Irwin's book Bob Dylan: Highway 61 Revisited Legendary Sessions. The Chapter on the last desperate stand by the old guard at the Newport Folk Festival, is most instructive.

This is what the old guard tried to stand against.

Newport 1965

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:39 PM

Clearly there are differences of opinion as to what's reasonable and where the onus lies for defining what's expected on a particular occasion. I can live with differences of opinion, and I can usually respect even those that I strongly disagree with.

However I find GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie's "grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!" seriously offensive. Regardless of who holds what opinion, insults and name-calling won't help anyone.

Richard

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:56 PM

I was wondering what this concentrated cacophony reminded me of, and Rifleman's introduction of Bob Dylan into the debate brought it home to me.

The first verse and chorus of Dylan's Desolation Row.

They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner
They've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker
The other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless
They need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight
From Desolation Row.

That's how I see it, anyway!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:18 PM

Seems to me like Linda and her friends have built a community with its own ideas of what constitutes politeness and having a good time. For an outsider to storm in there and insist on their right to perform solo come what may would be just plain boorish.

On the other hand, maybe the club might also decide to book somebody who operated that way simply for a change. So long as everybody knows what to expect there need not be any bad feeling. I can't imagine there'd be a lot of singing along if they booked Adam McNaughtan, for example (though he does have a few chorus songs).

I can see Azizi's point. Growing up in New Zealand I got to see a bit of the Maori/Polynesian way of doing things. It would be just about unimaginable for a Polynesian singer to insist on unaccompanied solo performance, in a Polynesian cultural context.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:48 PM

When not to sing? What would be your impressions on this? Everybody in
the audience knowing the words to the song, and purposely singing loud enough that they couldn't hear the performer. I was backstage at a show
once in a small town, and a girl sang the national anthem. Most of
the people in the audience knew her, but they didn't like her, and
it had nothing to do with her singing. They just sang so loud to drown
her out. She was a good singer to those backstage who could hear
her. But wouldn't that be a reason not to sing?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:43 AM

This is, of course, yet another of those threads that doesn't have a right/wrong answer.

Many songers, myself included, are only too happy when people recognise a song for them to join in the chorus:and I accpet that repeated lines in ballads do not always constitute a chorus and should usually be left alone.

As a solo singer, I don't mind if anyone with a good harmony tags along on the verses. I will admit that, very occasionally,an auduence can highjack a chorus cos the version that they sing locally is different from mine and that can throw you a bit, but overall I'd rather have the buzz of an audience singing along.

Now that won't suit everyone, so maybe the answer is for people like me to invite participation rather than for the audience to assume that its ok. But if it does happen to you, it's fairly safe to assume that the audience is singing along out of pleasure with your performance and your choice of song, and accept the compliment.

P.S. Jim, L.K. is one of the most nicest singers that you could wish to meet, and no visiting singer would anything less than total respect at her club.

K/van

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 03:06 AM

In the end, both from the point of view of the singer who, hopefully, is trying to interpret the words and not just repeat them, and the audience, who may not want to listen to his or her neighbour sing the (maybe or not same set of) words in or out of tune, loudly or softly, whatever takes their fancy, it has to be a decision of the performer and no-one else. Otherwise you either have to set ground rules, for which you obtain the individual performer's permission beforehand, or abandon solo singing altogether and adopt what Maple Leaf Boy has just amply described - community singing.
A number of people who have tentatively supported the practice (like Big Mick), have also accompanied their support with descriptions of what can go wrong.
Personally, if I go to a club to hear Gordeanna McCulloch sing ballads, and come away having had to listen to the person sitting next to me singalong with everything she does (whether in a quiet mutter or a full-throated roar, as above), I am left with the feeling of being cheated of a good night out - would any club organiser out there feel they have given me my money's worth?
Wyatt:
"simply because I see you as a defficet to the "folk"
I think you mean deficit - don't you? I'm beginning to be a little bored at being cyber-stalked by somebody who can't spell - please go away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:01 AM

This is such a difficult question. I agree with you totally Jim about Gordeanna McCulloch, no way would I join in with her cos it would be wrong.
And I think that most people would know that and not join in; but I couldn't lay down rules as to when you should or shouldn't join in.
But it would still be a sad day if audiences never again spontaneously joined in with a singer.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:47 AM

So, we've moved on from the, "I find your view that it is rude for members of the audience to sing along with a singer uninvited to be morally offensive" ploy to insults now, have we? Surely, a sign of real desperation!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:33 AM

Kampervan,
By "encouraging the audience to join in" the club has already circumvented any 'rules' by making it common practice to sing along with Gordeanna, or anybody who turns up (I could add Kevin Mitchell, Len Graham, Sheila Stewart....... and dozens more, but that would be just my personal preferences).
It really is far safer to (if you are to have it at all) leave the decision to the main singer, though personally, I'm always perfectly satisfied if there are enough chorus/refrain songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ref
Date: 03 May 09 - 09:00 AM

Maple Leaf Boy raises an interesting tangent. Is it the Canadian tradition to LISTEN to the National Anthem, or to The Mary Ellen Carter? As a boy during the sixties (In USA) I remember hearing the anthem at public events and the crowd always sang along. Now it's become a performance piece and everyone listens as the performer shows off range and melismatic skills. Perhaps in my youth I just was around more WWII vets who had considerable investment in being Americans, or maybe it's just because my parents were fine singers, but I miss those days and the feeling that we were all Americans together, despite our many differences.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Azizi
Date: 03 May 09 - 09:40 AM

This is, of course, yet another of those threads that doesn't have a right/wrong answer.
-Kampervan


I hope I'm not the only person who would find it more interesting to discuss different culture's traditions regarding singing along with a solo performer and how & why those traditions change within particular groups (such as the points that Jack Campin made about New Zealand and the point that Ref made about Canada). But I suppose that is a whole 'nuther thread.

It seems clear that with regard to this subject that there is never going to be total agreement about what is proper to do in particular settings and what is not.

That said, I've found it interesting reading this thread and observing the group dynamics and seeing how people choose to make (or not make) their points. But at some point-to quote a well known American children's song-"the wheels of the bus [keep going] round and round".

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:09 PM

I have never yet found it a problem.
guest AW,who recently went to one of my gigs,stated that he found someone else singing along with me annoying,this is a fair comment.
every audience member who is at a club or a concert does need to consider the other people present.
I was at a seated concert some months ago [cinema type seating],and had my concert disturbed by someone who needed to go out for a smoke every 20 minutes,so I had to stand up and let them pass four times.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:18 PM

I don,t care much for either Jim Carroll's or Rifleman's opinions but that's neither here nor there. We're all subject to speeling mistakes...I know I am!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:54 PM

"We're all subject to speeling mistakes"
Me too - but I'm not particularly happy at being stalked from thread to thread (I think this is the fourth) by somebody with a somewhat large personal problem - anything to get rid of the pratt will suffice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:59 PM

personal problems??

Having read through most of Rifleman's and your postings, I see it as a vastly different opinion to the music, trad or otherwise than you have. I'm leaving it at that, as I've no personal wish to get into slanging matches with either of you.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:23 PM

Well I'm sorry Jim, but I have to continue to disagree with you for two reasons.

Firstly, I've been going to various clubs and festivals for over 40 years and none of the ones that I've attended on a regular basis has had any RULE about joining in. But I can't recall any instance of the audience joining in at an inappropriate moment.
If there has been any offence caused to a visiting singer then it has not been obvious and has been so infrequent that it does not merit the creation of a RULE.

Which leads to the second reason, namely that much of our traditional music exists in an informal world and the fewer rules that there are the better. The more regulated that it becomes then, I believe, the fewer people will join us.

Rely on the audience,they may not be always right, but they're not often wrong.

K/van

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 May 09 - 07:06 PM

It's still unclear to me just why it is a terrible outrage perpetrated against a singer to suggest that he or she tell the audience, before starting to sing, whether or not singing along--on the chorus or refrain, if there is one-- is desirable. It is of course obvious that if there is no chorus or refrain, there is no singing along.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:38 AM

As a performer it appears simple to me:
if you don't want the audience to sing along, sing songs they don't know; if you do want them to sing along, sing songs they know.

Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:09 AM

Let's just not sing anymore. Let's just listen to one person sing at a time & let's all let the lights go out while we're at it. Pete's day is over, why in the world would anyone want to lift their voices & be heard when some one else can do it for us???

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:57 AM

"if you don't want the audience to sing along, sing songs they don't know; if you do want them to sing along, sing songs they know."
And so allow the audience (or club organisers) to dictate what you can and what you can't sing - is this what you are suggesting Seamus?
"Let's just not sing anymore. Let's just listen to one person sing at a time & let's all let the lights go out while we're at it."
On the other hand, let's ban solo singing in clubs and just accept that audiences will join in whether the singers wish them to or not. As much as I have loved Pete Seeger's singing down the years, if his style of performance was the ony one folk music would be so much the poorer.
Roll over Joe Heaney, Texas Gladden, Dillard Chandler, Sheila Stewart, Jeannie Robertson... and all the old solo singers - your singing is no longer wanted on voyage!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:28 AM

Jim, I was being facetious.
I know, it's hard to tell in print.

I don't have any trouble getting my audiences to sing along, or not, depending on the song.
If I want them to join in, I'll encourage them to do so, and if I don't want them to join in, I'll say something along the lines of: 'Listen to the words of this one."

I find that a bit more diplomatic than saying: "Now, don't sing along with this song."

And occasionally it's fun to try to get them to sing along with an instrumental piece like Dueling Banjos or the Teetotaller's Reel.

Really!

Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:36 AM

Spot on Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:16 AM

"Jim, I was being facetious."
Sorry Seamus - I really shouldn't post just after I've got out of bed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:36 AM

After fifty years of performing at, and organising, folk, clubs, singarounds, and sessions, I have long advocated that joining in with a singer who is out front, concert style, should be by his/her invitation only, except for choruses.

Singarounds are somewhat different, and I tend to join in with others who I KNOW will not mind.

Sessions are by definition joining in events, and anybody wishing to perform without others' input should so indicate at the start of his/her song.

IMHO, of course.


Jim Carroll said....""Your posts get nastier and more dishonest every time you make them - was it something I said?""........

Pot and kettle Jim! You have hardly posted two polite comments in the last year, so to accuse those you despise and denigrate at every opportunity of treating YOU badly is, frankly, laughable.

So, YES, it was pretty near everything you said.

Don T.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 08:24 AM

Don,
I have strong opinions on some subjects which I try to express honestly - sometimes vehemently, as I would expect of any other contributor.
If this comes across in the way you describe - I cannot see that I can possibly have anything to offer to this forum - so perhaps I should leave you all to it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:22 PM

The party's over
dim the lights,
Empty the ash trays
of redundant claims,
The ghosts of voices
in the night
Discuss another set
of party games

- The Party's Over. Phil Beer & Ashley Hutchings

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:51 PM

""If this comes across in the way you describe - I cannot see that I can possibly have anything to offer to this forum - so perhaps I should leave you all to it
Jim Carroll""


There is absolutely no need to react in that fashion, Jim, especially as, had those whom you have addressed in the way I described reacted similarly, there would now be no forum for you to post to.

All that is needed, is perhaps to consider the feelings you would experience, had you spent your whole life trying to do the best for something you believe in, only to have someone categorise your efforts as hopelessly inefficient, and detrimental to what you have been trying to protect.

You come across as superior, patronising, grumpy and irrascible by turns, though this may not be how you intend to sound.

Many of us have been involved in folk clubs for longer than we care to remember, and it isn't nice to have someone telling us that we know nothing about running individual clubs which that person hasn't visited, and knows absolutely nothing about.

I don't wish to chase you away from this, or any other forum, and I do think you often have valid and important points to make. I simply question whether getting your point across can only be achieved by drawing blood, or whether some slightly softer option might be more effective?

Were you to show to those who have different ways of working, the respect for their expertise that you would wish to receive, it would, IMO, be a very good start.

Don T.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:59 PM

It isn't nice to suggest that some of us who have been performing for more years than we care to remember, that we have absolutely no idea what we're doing, and that I do resent. I'm beginning to think that Rifleman may not be too far off the mark.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:49 PM

"You come across as superior, patronising, grumpy and irrascible by turns,"
Thank you Don - you've convinced me I have no place in here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:06 PM

For the record, most of Jim Carroll's posts seem perfectly reasonable to me. In my opinion a lot of the things that he says NEED to be said.For far too long the British folk scene has been collapsing into a lazy, pop-tinged mush and it needs shaking up. I can't help noticing that his detractors don't seem to have many counter-arguments and seem to rely either on accusing him of some, vaguely defined 'moral turpitude' (nonsense!) or in insulting him.

There are a few good clubs still out there (particularly that outstandingly brilliant one in Lewes!) and there are some great singers. I've heard two excellent young singers recently who have blown me away - and they both seem to have discovered the folk scene for themselves. But will they get the support and appreciation that they deserve or will they be driven away by a surfeit of the 'I-haven't-rehearsed-this-I'm-reading it-from-an-exercise-book' brigade or drowned out by members of the audience joining in uninvited?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVQ8NIGyHIM&feature=related

Better make the no singing along rules really clear to this crowd too (and it is totally fine to have whatever rules you want but I bet it would require great restraing for them not to sing along) mg

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 09 - 04:23 PM

I would liek to point out that at the Good Intent at Rochester Sweep's fest this weekend, PJ (of PJ's Music) came in from the garden (where there was a tunes session going on which he was chairing). He came in to the John Barden singing session in the bar. We had been roaring our heads off in harmony. The pub had a beer festival on - 48 barrels of ale gone in one weekend. An unruly crowd?

PJ nailed us to our seats with one bad salad. He just offered us a choice of a melodeon tune or the ballad. We opted. He sang. No-one moved or uttered a sound. He didn't need to make rules. He just did it so well that he held us rapt.

Locally we are used to the excellent Marian Button, who won the nats (best unaccompanied traditional song) not long ago. But I think PJ's rendition of the song and the power of his narrative and his dynamic use of his voice made it best unaccompanied traditional song I have ever heard live.

You want us to shut up and listen? Now you know what you truly need to do.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:33 PM

hmmm..I'd say that a 'bad salad' is an unusual way to keep an unruly audience in line.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:08 PM

""I can't help noticing that his detractors don't seem to have many counter-arguments and seem to rely either on accusing him of some, vaguely defined 'moral turpitude' (nonsense!) or in insulting him.""

Do you then feel, Shimrod, that Jim has the right to insult folk club organisers and make assumptions as to the nature, efficiency, and probable shortcomings of clubs he has never visited, and knows nothing about.

It is not my purpose to insult him, but merely to question the basis of his assessment of the English folk scene from the far side of the Irish sea. He has stated on this thread that for ten years he has hardly spent any time over here, and a lot happens in ten years.

A couple of months ago, Dick Miles was kind enough, on another thread to compliment me on my methods of running a folk club, having guested there several times, albeit many years ago. Had HE said of that club, that I was doing a bad job, and needed to change the organisation, I would have taken note, because HE would have been speaking from personal experience.

As to the generalised nature of Jim's comments, well, each club is unique. The only thing they share is the kind of music they offer, and even that has its variants. If a club is pulling in good numbers then it is being effectively run, and the person best equipped to decide on the style and format is the one who knows the audience and performers, and that would be the organiser.


Jim Carroll wrote:-

""We no longer have the choice of the music we wish to listen to because organisers have allowed folk clubs to become dustbins for whatever people now choose to call folk.
Whatever is performed there is no loger guaranteed to be of a listenable standard because they have accepted that clubs are now a place were singers and non-singers are allowed to practice in public.
Even if you, by the slimmest chance, happen to find a club presenting the music you want at a reasonanle standard, you're not allowed to listen to it in peace because of the droning of a bunch of self-obsessed pratts who haven't got the good manners to listen to a performer without feeling the urge to show how clever they are.
Nice to know our music is in safe hands!!
Jim Carroll""

I have bad news Jim. Most folk club organisers don't run their clubs, or choose the performers, on the off chance that YOU might pop in out of the blue.

Generally speaking clubs seem to have better attendances if the organisers pay some heed to what their REGULARS require, which can be different at different clubs, or even on different nights (e.g. Guest or Singers) at the same club.

It's not an exact science, but the one sure way to kill it stone dead is to try to force all of them into a "one size fits all" mould.

Don T

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 08:39 PM

Perhaps we might put some of this 'insulting' in context.
Personally I find this insulting:
"You have hardly posted two polite comments in the last year";
particucilarly as it is patently untrue.
My "was it something I said" comment was aimed at someone who had once again raised a point of difference which has now been going on for many months and is proving unresolvable, yet the poster has dragged it up on numerous unrelated threads despite my requesting that we agree to differ or deal with it off-line in order not to inflict it on other members of this forum.
Again, I find "You come across as superior, patronising, grumpy and irrascible by turns," somewhat insulting as I don't believe they are descriptive of how I am - though you will have to ask my friends if that's the case.
In an odd way I find:
"The party's over
dim the lights,
Empty the ash trays
of redundant claims,
The ghosts of voices
in the night
Discuss another set
of party games";
rather childishly insulting, not because of what it says (it says nothing), but rather because it is one of a number of hostile and personal postings from this individual spread over several threads irrespective of topic.
Which in its turn makes;
"I'm beginning to think that Rifleman may not be too far off the mark." - rather insulting to be compared to somebody who indulges in such childish invective.
It is one of the unfortunate features of folk song - as it stands today, is that it seems to attract insults like horshit attracts flies.
Perhaps you would like to run your finger down this forum and count the number of times those of us who don't readily fall into line with what happens in folk clubs have been referred to as 'folk police' or ' folk fascists' or 'finger in ear' or, as I got recently 'woolly jumpers' (this last being accompanied by something like "sit down, shut up, and take what you're given").
My late friend and mentor for a couple of decades, Ewan MacColl, despite his being dead for around 20 years, is still the target of vituperative abuse from certain quarters - must earn him a place in the Guinness Book of Records for a performing artist, surely?
High hopes said:
"It isn't nice to suggest that some of us who have been performing for more years than we care to remember"
No it isn't - but some of us have got used to it. I calculated recently - to my horror - that in a couple of years time I will have been involved in folk song for half a century, yet I'm still being spoken to as if I had just dropped into a folk club on the off-chance. Whatever length of time you've been involved, it doesn't make any of us automatically right about anything.
Don; re my quotes in your previous posting - all of them are long term arguments which are related to specific statements and have been hammersed out ad-nauseum.
One of my favourite responses to something I found unnecessary or arduous used to be "life's too short", but as I will reach my 67th birthday this year - it really is too short.
I spent thirty odd years benefiting from and enjoying the generosity of traditional singers - as well as coming away with a large number of songs and a great deal of information, I also was left with a feeling that I owed those people a great debt - an obligation to make the best use of what they so generously gave.
I don't know whether I wish to remain a member of this forum. As much as I have enjoyed and benefited from it and have learned a great deal from it, I really don't see the point of continuing if the impression I am making is the one Don described. I have a great many things I still wish to do - and to repeat - life really is too short.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:07 PM

Perhaps you all should stop debating about Jim's perceived faults and get back to the subject. I get so tired of this.......

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:16 PM

*If* you are an instumentalist (e.g. a fiddler) and you happen to be playing for a contra or square dance....no matter how good a singer you are....kindly refrain.
We contra dancers like to hear the caller!
(Can't really speak for the English country folks; my wife and I haven't gotten into ECD).

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 May 09 - 02:03 AM

Don T: "I have long advocated that joining in with a singer who is out front, concert style, should be by his/her invitation only, except for choruses.

Singarounds are somewhat different, and I tend to join in with others who I KNOW will not mind.

Sessions are by definition joining in events, and anybody wishing to perform without others' input should so indicate at the start of his/her song."

I think your brief summary here, makes a good deal of sense Don.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 May 09 - 03:01 AM

I can understand Mr. Carroll's concern that folk session is potentially muddied by introduction of non folk song.

But unfortunately this is time we are in. Singers age and die away, taking the traditional songs with them. New people come along that have not been indoctrinated as others have been, changing what may have once been a totally traditional song session into something else. This is not necessarily bad.

If rendering a pop song in a session draws a youngster into the room and that young one stays and discovers the next traditional song a wonderful revelation and goes on to find out more, invite friends, etc., then that "muddying" of the session has served a positive purpose. The above is not a judgement of the quality any song brought into a session, only a statement of how things are and can be.

Getting back to the original question when should singers not sing. It will always be a matter of consideration from both performer and audience. The performer can and should invite participation or indicate not. The audience (there is always the potential for beer soaked exceptions) should follow that lead.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 09 - 03:26 AM

"The performer can and should invite participation or indicate not"
Circular argument Virginia; If a singer makes such a request for an audience not to join in, Richard, and those who think like him will be there to tell he or she that they consider themselves better than the rest of us. Where do you go from here? Surely the practice should be 'only join in when you are invited to do so'.
For the record (and off topic) I have never advocated that the introduction of non folk songs muddy the water - only that what goes on in folk song clubs should fall within recognisable parameters of the definition - ie they should sound like folk songs. Does the rendition of a pop song draw in youngsters? Most youngsters I know are fairly discriminating as to the quality of the music and virtually all the pop songs I have heard done at folk clubs have been executed fairly diabolically.
Jim (I prefer Jim - Mr Carroll makes me sound like my father) Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:05 AM

Jim, the way to shut the room up is actually to be better - as PJ was on that rowdy night at Sweeps this weekend.

I've also heard Marian Button silence an entire bar in a chavvy dive in the middle of Maidstone - we were unable to use the usual club room that night and were singing away tucked into a corner of the downstairs bar. She started - and a ripple of silence and attention spread out across the room.