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BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:42 PM Well said, Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Beer Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:05 PM Right on Peter T. Omama to me is "Simplify, simplify". He makes thing no matter how difficult look simple. Simple in a sense that this is what it is. No need to get into deep discussions. Here is the problem. We all know it. So lets fix it. Beer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM That could be because he's actually trying to find a real solution...whereas most politicians are merely trying to cover someone's ass, gloss things over, obscure what's going on, obfuscate, grandstand, and give the vague impression that they are looking for a real solution when they are really looking mainly to consolidate their own power, shore up the status quo, protect special interests, and maintain their popularity ratings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:27 PM Well, it's obvious that his audience here in the US is very impressed with the speech, but the stated purpose of the speech was to mend relations with the "Muslim world", and from what I've been reading, they're not quite as enthralled with the speech as people in this thread. One of the biggest criticisms I've been seeing is the fact that he gave the speech in Egypt, whose brutal dictator the US is helping to prop up with US tax dollars. Apparently, a lot of Muslims see that as an endorsement of the Mubarak dictatorship, and they aren't happy about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:49 PM It's a start. Let's see how it plays out and see what happens next. After 8 years of G.W. Bush and Dick Cheney, this is a bit of a relief, wouldn't you say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:22 AM I hope so. Here's some interesting perspective from one commentator on who he thinks the real intended audience was for the speech... http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/06/cairo-speech-was-pitched-to-american-jews.html#idc-container Cairo speech was pitched to American Jews [Cairo] I'm about to go to the airport so I can go home and become a broken record about Gaza. I spent the evening with Egyptian friends and when I woke up this morning I realized how much of my own suspicion and prejudice about Muslims I have overcome in the last few years, and few days. At dinner a friend spoke about a Jewish American journalist who proclaimed to him drunkenly once, I am a Zionist, I hate Arabs. This is the most automatic prejudice in Jewish life, largely unspoken. It seems to me this was the greatness of Obama's speech (which I blew in my coverage yesterday): so much of it was pitched to an American Jewish audience, from this Arab space. In that hall he was a rock star. The silence of the crowd for the first five minutes, before he quoted the Koran and the place exploded, was stargazing silence. The chants of We love you and of Obama! at the end were expressions of hope, that Muslims would again be treated with respect. The speech was pitched to Jews because the ironclad guarantee to Israel and all the Holocaust stuff and the Buchenwald and refusal to particularize Palestinian suffering, as he particularized Jewish suffering, were all nods to the lobby. Egypt understands that; and people say, he is our hope. He is urging American Jews to get past their racism toward the Arab world. Can we follow him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:08 AM Yeah, it's quite interesting, Carol. I think it was pitched in a number of directions, and one of them was most certainly at American Jews. Obama has to deal with that. He will have to be quite careful how he deals with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:07 AM "I think it is amazing that he very coolly took apart the whole Al-Qaeda rhetoric with the sheer evil of what they did -- and right in the middle of a Muslim country." I agree Carol & I also feel as if the speach would have been better delivered from a Muslim nation seeing as that's who he was mending fences with. Egypt is not a Muslim nation, it is Arab though & it's human rights stance could've been touched on seeing as that's where he choose to speak from. My feeling is that Obama has a tight rope to walk with his iron clap ties to Israel. IMHO he did not stand strong enough in his "asking" of Israel to "please" temper their aggression. This is by far the most important roadblock to peace in the Mid-East & the Mid-East was hoping for more. Other than that, yes it was by far the most positive speach given by a US Prez in many dedcades & probably the most important one too. I would've loved to here some poliicy & plans though. I just don't trust the system to follow & back him, more likely some will be trying to pull the rug out from under him. Barry on another computer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:14 AM Excerpts from www.arabnews.com June 04, 2009 Women delighted at Obama's address by - Siraj Wahab
For women across the Muslim world, US President Barack Obama's historic address from Cairo was nothing short of a blessing.
What struck a chord within me was his focus on education and the empowering of women through education. 'Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons.' I will always remember that line forever. It is so true."
Obama divided his speech into seven sections, mostly political.
However, the sixth issue focused entirely on women's rights.
"Obama's overtures to the Muslim world may still come with bogies attached, but his unequivocal support toward empowerment of Muslim women is a welcome sign indeed,"
"...media in the US have exacerbated many of the problems. They have been feeding the American public with a steady anti-Arab and anti-Muslim diet. However, I have no doubt about the good intentions of Obama.
...he made it clear that the issue of women's rights is a global one that many nations — including the US — need to address. Some women expressed hope that his words might advance that conversation in the Middle East.
"Obama's views on women's education are more than welcome.
arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=123246&d=5&m=6&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
Excerpts from www.gulfnews.com June 04, 2009
....on a scale of ten points, it would get six.
...expecting the speech to tackle...the Palestinian question...or...the Israeli nuclear arsenal.
...hoping it would include criticism of the US policies of the former administration.
...Obama's speech showed that US policies towards the Arab region will continue as they are.
...Obama's description of the Arab peace initiative as just a "beginning not an end" constitutes a "dangerous thing",
...it was just a new way of perceiving the same idea and the result will be the same!"
..."Obama's speech was about appeasement ...
..."very typical of western perception
gulfnews.com/region/Egypt/10319951.html gulfnews.com/region/Egypt/10319946.html
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:46 AM The Jerusalem Pos Friday, June 5, 2009 US reassured Jews ahead of speech By E. B. Solomont
...they were surprised to hear Obama voice his support for peaceful nuclear power in Iran.
..."We were completely blindsided by this statement," ....
...Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, founder and president of The Israel Project. "I was deeply disappointed in his speech today."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244035002748&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Jun 4, 2009 16:52 | Updated Jun 5, 2009 8:55
....He reinforced the portrayal of Israel as a modern colonial upstart.
... the fact that we were in exile - from this land, this historic Jewish homeland. This is the only place on earth where the Jews have ever been sovereign, the place we never willingly left, the place to which we always prayed to return.
This president, in that place, should have emphasized the point - stressed the physical root of our legitimacy to a Muslim world, and especially a Palestinian populace, that overwhelmingly refuses to acknowledge it.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244035000729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM Here's a link to a well-written report from a retired peace Corps volunteer who is resident in Cairo: Click here for report It's nice to be able to access such on the spot coverage. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM "Published: June 4, 2009 "When President Bush spoke in the months and years after Sept. 11, 2001, we often — chillingly — felt as if we didn't recognize the United States. His vision was of a country racked with fear and bent on vengeance, one that imposed invidious choices on the world and on itself. When we listened to President Obama speak in Cairo on Thursday, we recognized the United States. " (NYT Editorial) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM Excerpt from John Coyne's piece (linked upthread by Charlie Noble): "..As I sat there and listened to an American president talk truthfully, even painstakingly so, and passionately about shaping a relationship with Muslim countries based on mutual interests and mutual respect, I teared up. Really. He didn't lecture. He didn't threaten or swagger. There wasn't a cowboy bone in that body. He wasn't apologizing, either. He very clearly laid out what US interests are and was clear that he will defend them. But here's the difference from the past eight years: he framed our interests in terms of human rights and peace. He was able to communicate in language that his audience not only relates to, like verses from the Koran, but in a way that demonstrates he can see all sides to a problem, that he can see the world from their eyes, too. By doing that, he affirmed the dignity of his audience — and did America very proud. Ok, so all of that is emotional, but there were even greater emotions among Egyptians that went beyond "wow" and "pride." Maybe some of my more eloquent friends can give me a better word to describe the impact of the whole day, but let me try to describe the sense in the example of one Egyptian contact. My friend always plays her cards close to the chest. I usually consider her to be fair, but not "pro" U.S. Yesterday tears were streaming down her face. When I saw her after the speech and asked her what she thought, she started in. Her view was that never in her life had such a cross section of Egypt been together in one room. Egyptian government officials, opposition leaders, religious leaders, bloggers, journalists, activists, students, Muslim Brotherhood, the Israeli ambassador (he was invited with other regional ambassadors), intellectuals and artists. To her there was suddenly hope. If Obama can bring these people together and speak to each group's different concerns, she thinks he just may be able to do it on a bigger scale and actually achieve peace in the region. She said she had long lost hope for peace but that it was "woken up," as she put it. And that surprised her and overwhelmed her. ..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill D Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM What *I* see in both these replies and in world response is that those who already have "an ax to grind" tend to focus on whatever part of the speech gave any comfort to their 'perceived enemies'. The are 'disappointed' that he didn't extol/promise/offer praise for THEIR sacred cows and roundly condemn the evils of **them**. GodMan deals with the Middle-East |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill D Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:26 PM No..HERE is the GodMan cartoon I was looking for! Can we translate that into several languages and drop leaflets all over the Middle-East? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM Since Muslims were supposed to be the intended targets of the speech, whatever "axe" they do or don't have to grind would seem to be irrelevant, no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:42 PM More perspective from the target audience. The correspondent who wrote this, Seham, is a Palestinian American... http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/06/obama-cairo-followup.html If only he would have mentioned that Al-Azhar University was a beacon of Islamic and Arabic thought before it was plunged into backwardness by U.S. supported dictators in Egypt. If only people knew that under Mubarak, Al-Azhar represents little more than a place where regular book burnings occur and where extremists can be taught how to sow sectarian discord against their Shia brothers and sisters... I don't know where to begin, there are so many things I took issue with, but I guess I'll start with the 9/11 lecture. In the last six years, Arabs have witnessed the slaughter of over one million dead Iraqis and thousands of dead Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Americans sent to Iraq wearing military uniforms have raped and killed children and tortured many, many others. Yet, I'm sure Americans don't want to be judged by rapists like Steven Green or murderers like George Bush. Well Arabs don't want to be reminded about the hijackers at every opportunity, either. Especially considering that those hijackers were not the democratically elected representatives of the Arab people. Obama also talked about bus bombings, the last of which was carried out in 2004 and about his upcoming visit to a concentration camp in Germany. But he did not mention the more recent slaughter of thousands of people in Lebanon and Palestine by Israel. He couldn't bring himself to condemn the war when it was happening, he didn't want to step on toes, it was a bullshit claim but I cut him some leeway anyway. But five months later he has yet to utter a condemnation of the indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian civilians and he has no plans to visit Gaza. And I wonder why he mentioned the holocaust and holocaust denial to his Arab audience, Arabs are not responsible for the holocaust and while I denounce the stupidity of those that deny history, I am baffled as to why the holocaust is being viewed within the frame of Muslim denial instead of Christian criminality. And, as far as Palestinians go, we are very aware of the holocaust and we know who perpetrated those crimes because we have been paying the price ever since. He insulted my intelligence when he talked about Muslims and the founding of this country. There was no mention of how those first Muslims ended up in the US, but they got here on slave ships and they were black Africans and Arabs. And yes, they fought in America's wars, some were even injected with syphilis in the process. Maybe these half-truths were easy for his audience today to accept because they seem to giddy to be recognized and spoken to, even if it is done so condescendingly. I can't blame them because they are just so delighted that they aren't being portrayed as sandal wearing terrorists for once. But I wasn't impressed with the revisionist history of how black Muslims first got to the U.S. On Palestine and Israel his statement on the settlements were disturbing. He said that Israel must halt settlement growth but he doesn't say anything about the ones that are already there which are just as illegal as the ones that are currently being built and expanded. Does he think that the "old" settlements are legitimate negotiating factors? I was confused when he said that Hamas should recognize Israel, which Israel is it that Hamas should recognize? 1948 borders or 1967? Or Israel within the borders of 2000, 2007, 2008, 2009? Considering that the illegal settlements are constantly expanding, I can see how confusing it must be for Hamas to figure out which Israel to recognize. His lecturing to Arabs about how they need to take "responsibility" were laughable in light of the fact that this week he reiterated his full support for Israel at the UN and has stated repeatedly that he will not halt welfare to Israel. Meanwhile, Richard Goldstone is leading the UN investigation team in Gaza and he says he is amazed by the devastation which he has seen. He also says that Israel is doing nothing to assist his investigation--an investigation for a war crimes that were funded by the U.S. Angry Arab says it best: "Shoukran," Mr. Obama replied, which in Arabic means "thank you." Look how nice, how sensitive, and how humane. Why did not other presidents think of that. If only that word was used before. I mean, if you print the word "shoukran" (it should be "shukran" but hey, it is the New York Times), on bombs and missiles that are being dropped on Arabs and Muslims, I think that they will no more mind US wars. Really. Just by using the word, Obama guaranteed a switch in Arab/Muslim public perceptions of the US. In fact, I once entered a French restaurant in Paris: and I started to hit customers and trashing the place. When some customers gathered to attack me, I yelled: "Merci." With that, the entire crowd started to cheer and they went to the kitchen to bake me a croissant. You should try that trick sometimes. "Thank you." -As`ad. Oh but thanks for telling us that we have pretty calligraphy, Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM Perspective from another member of the target audience, also a Palestinian American, Ali Abunimah (who, when his face is shaved, and his head is not, reminds me a lot of the owner of the Mudcat)... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/04/barack-obama-middleeast Once you strip away the mujamalat – the courtesies exchanged between guest and host – the substance of President Obama's speech in Cairo indicates there is likely to be little real change in US policy. It is not necessary to divine Obama's intentions – he may be utterly sincere and I believe he is. It is his analysis and prescriptions that in most regards maintain flawed American policies intact. Though he pledged to "speak the truth as best I can", there was much the president left out. He spoke of tension between "America and Islam" – the former a concrete specific place, the latter a vague construct subsuming peoples, practices, histories and countries more varied than similar. Labelling America's "other" as a nebulous and all-encompassing "Islam" (even while professing rapprochement and respect) is a way to avoid acknowledging what does in fact unite and mobilise people across many Muslim-majority countries: overwhelming popular opposition to increasingly intrusive and violent American military, political and economic interventions in many of those countries. This opposition – and the resistance it generates – has now become for supporters of those interventions, synonymous with "Islam". It was disappointing that Obama recycled his predecessor's notion that "violent extremism" exists in a vacuum, unrelated to America's (and its proxies') exponentially greater use of violence before and after September 11, 2001. He dwelled on the "enormous trauma" done to the US when almost 3,000 people were killed that day, but spoke not one word about the hundreds of thousands of orphans and widows left in Iraq – those whom Muntazer al-Zaidi's flying shoe forced Americans to remember only for a few seconds last year. He ignored the dozens of civilians who die each week in the "necessary" war in Afghanistan, or the millions of refugees fleeing the US-invoked escalation in Pakistan. As President George Bush often did, Obama affirmed that it is only a violent minority that besmirches the name of a vast and "peaceful" Muslim majority. But he seemed once again to implicate all Muslims as suspect when he warned, "The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer." Nowhere were these blindspots more apparent than his statements about Palestine/Israel. He gave his audience a detailed lesson on the Holocaust and explicitly used it as a justification for the creation of Israel. "It is also undeniable," the president said, "that the Palestinian people – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation." Suffered in pursuit of a homeland? The pain of dislocation? They already had a homeland. They suffered from being ethnically cleansed and dispossessed of it and prevented from returning on the grounds that they are from the wrong ethno-national group. Why is that still so hard to say? He lectured Palestinians that "resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed". He warned them that "It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered." Fair enough, but did Obama really imagine that such words would impress an Arab public that watched in horror as Israel slaughtered 1,400 people in Gaza last winter, including hundreds of sleeping, fleeing or terrified children, with American-supplied weapons? Did he think his listeners would not remember that the number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians targeted and killed by Israel has always far exceeded by orders of magnitude the number of Israelis killed by Arabs precisely because of the American arms he has pledged to continue giving Israel with no accountability? Amnesty International recently confirmed what Palestinians long knew: Israel broke the negotiated ceasefire when it attacked Gaza last November 4, prompting retaliatory rockets that killed no Israelis until after Israel launched its much bigger attack on Gaza. That he continues to remain silent about what happened in Gaza, and refuses to hold Israel accountable demonstrates anything but a commitment to full truth-telling. Some people are prepared to give Obama a pass for all this because he is at last talking tough on Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. In Cairo, he said: "The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop." These carefully chosen words focus only on continued construction, not on the existence of the settlements themselves; they are entirely compatible with the peace process industry consensus that existing settlements will remain where they are for ever. This raises the question of where Obama thinks he is going. He summarised Palestinians' "legitimate aspirations" as being the establishment of a "state". This has become a convenient slogan to that is supposed to replace for Palestinians their pursuit of rights and justice that the proposed state actually denies. Obama is already on record opposing Palestinian refugees' right to return home, and has never supported the right of Palestinian citizens of Israel to live free from racist and religious incitement, persecution and practices fanned by Israel's highest office holders and written into its laws. He may have more determination than his predecessor but he remains committed to an unworkable two-state "vision" aimed not at restoring Palestinian rights, but preserving Israel as an enclave of Israeli Jewish privilege. It is a dead end. There was one sentence in his speech I cheered for and which he should heed: "Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Goose Gander Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM There has been a change in rhetoric. It remains to be seen whether there will be a change in policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM The anonymous writer "Seham," is a California nutball and not part of anyone's intended audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:45 PM Where does that information come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM Which part? The California location comes from just clickling back through her earlier articles on the website and their intros. The nutball part comes from . . . . me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:04 PM He (the California nutball quoted above, if that is what he is) strikes me as exactly opposedto the whole concept of reconciliation. As such, he sounds like a man who is overly involved in pasthatred, and unable to step away from his own bitterness. This is not a matter of blame, but simply an observation: a man in that state of mind will not heal or recover until he overcomes his attachment to anger. This does not gainsay the fact that the United States has past offenses to rectify as well as past acts of goodwill that are often ignored in the rush to make noise in the commons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM On what basis is the accusation of nutball being made, and on what basis does the person calling her that claim to know who she is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:11 PM It really doesn't matter how people who belong to the target demographic view the world. What matters is how they received the speech, since it was ostensibly aimed at them. If the objective is to heal the wounds of the past, which Obama has suggested they are, then adequately addressing those wounds is the first prerequisite. Arrogantly dismissing them, as some people above seem to want to do, simply won't do the job. But the person in question (a she) has very good reasons for seeing things the way she does. http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/01/one-americans-awakening-i-was-7-when-they-punched-my-grandfather-in-the-face-and-none-of-the-men-in-.html One American's awakening: 'I was 7 when they punched my grandfather in the face, and none of the men in my family dared say anything' (Anyone new to this blog should be aware that while it has a Jewish character, it represents an effort, in the new global environment, to cross borders and hear what members of other groups have to say. This is both a selfishly-curious desire on my part and also an effort at service: to use journalistic skills to try and change American understanding. Yesterday I was emailing with a young Palestinian-American woman in California who told me some wrenching stories about her relatives but said I couldn't put them on the site. Why not? Because some Americans associated with Al Awda (a Palestinian group dedicated to right of return) have been prevented by Israel from even visiting the territories because of their outspokenness. Then I asked this woman her story, and she wrote the following. Ten minutes later another email came in which she apologized for giving in to her "crazy" in sending this to me. But I said I found it moving and helpful; and she said I could post if I did not use her name. I usually remove profanity from postings. This is a vital exception.--Phil Weiss) My parents are both from the West Bank. They came here in the 60's and my older siblings and I were all born here. I wish I could be a normal 25 year old and just care about getting high and watching Cribs but I can't. It's getting harder and harder for me to focus on anything other than this issue and I am finding less and less people for me to feel "comfortable" around. At the height of the bombing my best friend wanted me to stop watching Al Jazeera and go SHOPPING with her! Totally fucking senseless! Yeah, OK, I'll pretend like I didn't see a kid's head sticking out of the rubble like a freaking horror movie and I'll go to Nordstrom's with you and try on boots? Seriously? People don't want to hear this shit, and I'm scared that Obama will come off as being "progressive" on this issue when he really isn't and that he will inadvertently legitimize the Zionist position on Palestine. I don't think I want any of this on your blog, I'm just ranting now and I am pissed. I've been so fucking pissed since I was 7. That's the first time I ever understood what occupation and apartheid meant. When I went to the West Bank for the first time to meet my grandparents and I saw my grandfather get punched in the face. I was getting hassled (at age 7!) by the soldiers because I couldn't understand what they were saying to me, I didn't understand their accents so my grandfather interjected and told them I was American and they punched him in the face and told him to mind his own business. I saw my dad and brother go white with rage but then at the same time there wasn't shit they could say because that 18 year old hooligan with a gun might decide to throw everyone in jail or worse. Very humbling experience. Nobody likes to see people disrespected or dehumanized in that way. But in that flash-- to see all the men in your family psychologically mindfucked like that is something else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: robomatic Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM I thought the location was thought out and appropriate, I appreciated Obamaa's directness, uprightness, and I personally enjoyed listening to the brickbats tossed at it by some of the AM radio right who were not unlike CarolC's aggrieved crybabies above, just picking at different points. Obama was speaking broadly to a broad audience. His main points were part of a cohesive whole and he himself made the point that it was only a speech and not a solution. He handled himself well, and made me just a bit more proud to be an American, which he has been doing for some time, now. I didn't agree with some of the points, found innaccuracies as well, but on balance, I think it took some guts and some smarts, and this approach (what FDR once described as 'Jaw-Jaw not War-War' should have been tried far far earlier in recent history, but we had no one capable of making the effort. (I used to use the word 'Moslem' until about 10 or more years ago when I shifted to 'Muslim' because most folks who seemed to know what they were talking about it used that term. I never heard nor read that it was pejorative and I don't think it was, but etymology marches on in spite of us) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill D Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM "..., whatever "axe" they do or don't have to grind would seem to be irrelevant, no?" ?? I don't see that. It seems very relevant...at least to me. What you are doing, Carol, is demonstrating my point that those who do not WISH to be reconciled or to find any positive thing in the speech, will not find any. Those quotes, no matter who they are from, just show that some will NEVER be happy unless they get everything THEY want, and see former enemies punished also. Obama's point that everyone must give a little and listen better is lost on those determined to hate & carry grudges forever....on ALL sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:37 PM If the objective of the speech was to mend relations with the Muslims of the world and with the people of the Middle East, as we have been told it was, then the reactions of those people are an important indication of the success or lack of success of the speech. If, on the other hand, the objective of the speech was to reinforce Americans' sense of smug superiority over the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, and also Americans' "fuck you" attitude towards the feelings of the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, then judging by some of the posts above, the speech would appear to have been a success. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM That's a vivid tale, and heart-wrenching. As far as I can see, Obama is doing the exact opposite of legitimizing the "zionist" position--which, I might add, is a charged term intended to promulgate difference and controversy. As far as the right of return is concerned, how far back in time would you think it should be taken? Twenty years? One hundred? Two thousand? It is obvious that the youth of BOTH sides of this ridiculous interlocked equation have to get over their myths, their scars, their terror and their losses, and find a footing from which some sort of harmony is possible. I have seen Arabs and Israelis become the fastest of friends when they were not constantly exposed to old hatred and new terror. I know it is possible. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: bobad Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:46 PM ".....if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth" Truer words were never spoken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:52 PM Intended audience aside it has to be agreed---I believe--that he is a brilliant speaker and knows how to use language. A breath of fresh air following GWB and the on-going growling from Cheney. ANother thing that should be thought about---the speech was meant to be translated into many languages so it had to be diplomatic without great quotable flourishes such as, say, a Gettysburg Address. Since it was delivered in Egypt---I was listening---one could almost time the beat for the applause lines---any thing that smacked of anti-Israel comment got applause---criticism of Palestinians (however slight)---silence. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: robomatic Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:58 PM I endorse Amos and Bobad's points above, Obama is attempting to provide a perspective that allows some commonality to enter what should be a Jawboning approach to getting some peace in the situation. Whether or not the tales quoted by CarolC's sources are true, they enter into a 'one said, t'other said' back-and-forth of aggrievement and bereavement, which may have some validity, but Obama's speech was deliberately pitched above that range. Trying to drag it down by picking away at one part of it or what the AM radio profiteers were (I think they were making a big deal about Obama's trying to show some Muslim participation in historical America or challenging his count of the number of Muslim US citizens)are likewise missing th point, not to assert an aura of smugness but to attempt to establish a commonality. This is an excellent political move which is well worth doing, but in no wise quaranteed of success. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:02 PM A true wonder compared with the lying fucking gits in the UK govenment! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill D Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM "...the reactions of those people are an important indication of the success or lack of success of the speech." Well, last night I saw an Islamic scholar who teaches at an American school say that it gave him goosebumps to hear an American president finally saying some of those things and saying them in respectful way to Islam. I gather there were others who saw it as, at least, a good beginning. No one pretends that one speech is all that is required. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM "As far as the right of return is concerned, how far back in time would you think it should be taken? Twenty years? One hundred? Two thousand?" Two thousand years to cover Palestinians as well as Jews would seem a fair compromise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:20 PM The "right of return" going back over a hundred years is damn silly, if you ask me. If we tried to enforce it worldwide, it would mean the displacement of probably about 80% of all the people on the face of the Earth at this time. It would mean war in virtually every country on the planet. It isn't important where people live. It's important that they find a way to coexist in peace and mutual tolerance and harmoniously share the places where they already are living or wherever else they choose to peacefully go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:23 PM I would agree with McGrath except for one point---which is probably the sticking point in the entire scenario. Palestinians, to my knowledge, were the Israelites and were forced out of their native land all those many moons ago. In the history of the area---a blink of an eye in terms of the universe--Jews were the inhabitants and then forced out into the very unkind (mostly) Diaspora, So a brief and concise history: They came home. They were not welcome. They were warred against. They perservered. End of story. They also are willing to compromise ---well, perhaps, not this leader; leaders prior to him and they were thwarted at all turns. Check the papers---Carter, Clinton, etc; Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:01 PM I would say that right of return for those expelled and their descendents would at least conform to international law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:06 PM By the way, according to most archaeologists, including Israeli archaeologists, the biblical narrative of the history of Jews in the Levant is largely fiction. And also, according to most experts, including Israeli experts, most Jews have no historical familial connection whatever to what is now Israel. In other words, there never was an expulsion of the Jews from that region, and the accounts of the Jewish kingdom there are greatly exaggerated. So European Jews really do not have any historical right of return, nor to any Jews other than the Arab Jews whose families never left the area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM CarolC I will support the giving of $1BILLION to each Arab refugee from Israel, right after you support the giving of the same to each Jewish refugee from the Arab nations ( ie, the ones that declared war on Israel in 1948). That means $820,000,000,000,000 to the Jews that Israel resettled, and $640,000,000,000,000 to the Palestinians. Net result is $180,000,000,000,000 to the Jewish refugees. Waiting on the Arab nations to pay up... "In other words, there never was an expulsion of the Jews from that region, and the accounts of the Jewish kingdom there are greatly exaggerated." You had best provide a source for this- as it contradicts what is known about the states in the period 1200BCE to 300 ACE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:40 PM How many times do I have to repeat that I support allowing all of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries to return to their countries of origin before the above poster will actually notice that I have said this? Five hundred? A million? I have, probably dozens of times, said that I support allowing Jews who were expelled from their countries of origin to return to those countries. Which is no more and no less than what I am advocating for the Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: heric Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:43 PM >>Arrogantly dismissing them, as some people above seem to want to do, simply won't do the job.<< I shan't be lured into your slippery talk. This is a person who believes Americans slaughtered a million civilians in Iraq. Maybe you do, too, but let's start with the assumption that Obama doesn't. This is a person who believes that Obama insulted her intelligence by not discussing America's cruel history of enslaving Arabs. This is what Obama said (can you suggest a way he would have better addressed her concerns without undermining his entire message? - he wasn't there to regurgitate the full litany of all grievances and grudges): "I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers –- Thomas Jefferson –- kept in his personal library." Then you so charmingly said: "If the objective of the speech was to mend relations with the Muslims of the world and with the people of the Middle East, as we have been told it was, then the reactions of those people are an important indication of the success or lack of success of the speech. If, on the other hand, the objective of the speech was to reinforce Americans' sense of smug superiority over the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, and also Americans' "fuck you" attitude towards the feelings of the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, then judging by some of the posts above, the speech would appear to have been a success. " This is a person who wanted him to overtly demonize his hosts and declare before the world "that under Mubarak, Al-Azhar represents little more than a place where regular book burnings occur and where extremists can be taught how to sow sectarian discord against their Shia brothers and sisters." What do you think Obama should have said? Can you please all and each of a billion people all of the time? P.S. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: mg Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:45 PM You can't go back very far with right of return and 2000 years is beyond comprehension..not that it would not be desired but that it could not reasonably be accomodated without abusing the present population. It will always be a problem after wars and various diaspora...the Irish are still worried that people will come back with the desire to reclaim what their families left in the famine, or I was told so in Ireland recently. I could go right to where my ancestors were but I wouldn't kick the people out who live there...and that is 160 or so years...not 2000. It does matter where one lives..it can't always be accomodated. The Palestinians want their own land..not country..their own little farms and houses and orchards back. It does not mean they will get this..they probably won't..but some should be set aside in pepertuity for at least a Williamsburg-type situation, so that children can see what their grandparents were talking about, and can have picnics etc. on the grounds as they were kept long ago. Down the road from me is a Palestinian who had an orange orchard stolen from him. He is hopefully forgetting this now as he is developing Alzheimers. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM I wasn't referring to anything the above poster said when I said what that person has quoted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM Well, the one who posted directly after my last post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:51 PM Here's my source about the biblical history being largely fiction... http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:52 PM Before or after you let the Arab countries build concentrationa camps and ovens? Since the majority of Arabs ( non-Jewish) stayed in Israel and becam citizens, and the vast majority of the Jews in Arab nations were expelled, perhaps the Palestinians should be treated by the Israelis the samne way that they were treated by the other Arab nations- IE, kept in camps and denied citizenship. THAT is what the Arab nations did to the Palestinian refugess, while Israel resettled the Jews expelled from Arab nations. It would seem to me that if the Arabs want to have Israel resttle those Palestinians, the Arab nations should pay Israel back the entire costs of the Jewish resettlement. Now, lets talk about the 77% of Mandate Palestine RESERVED for only the Arabs, in violation of the League of Nations Mandate itself. Since the Arabs got 77% of the Mandate territory, they HAVE their homeland- and could have settled there after 1948 IF THEY RENOUNCED VIOLENT ACTIONS against Israel ( check the Jordanian offers) SO, the West Bank is part of the Israeli JEWISH homeland, and if the Palestinians are settled there they should be subject to Israeli law. Since Jordanian ( the Arab Muslim Palestinian homeland) LAW prohibits ownership of land by Jews, I presume you will allow Israel to make the same laws, and prohibit ownership of land by Muslims. After all, if it is good enough to treat Jews that way, shouldn't the Palestinians be happy to be treated the same? Or do you still apply different rules to Jews and Muslims? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:19 PM More documentation that the Bible's historical account of Jewish history is largely fiction... http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html In this popular refutation of the book described in the above link, the only thing that is being disputed is the idea that Israeli historians didn't already know about what the author said in his book... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999386.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM Of course the Israelis resettled the Jews into Israel. That was their goal all along, and is the reason why they worked very hard to get those Jews expelled from their home countries. The countries of origin of those Jews won't put them in gas chambers if they are returned as a part of a resettlement of Palestinian refugees back to their areas of origin. Especially if they are guaranteed that Israel will not make them suffer for allowing them back in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM Here we go again!!! Only proves that Obama can be fair minded and practice diplomacy and we get to hear the same tired old diatribes from the same tired old repeating people Bill Hahn |
