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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM "Obviously you see something offensive there and that is up to you." Flag and Bone is weird. It's meant to be. It's not offensive - not even to bee-keepers. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM I did a google search on "blacking up", these are the sort of articles that I came across. Does the Morris/ Molly/ Folk world really want to be associated with these sort of activities, whatever the history of Border Morris? Do these articles represent the reality of what many people will perceive when seeing blacked up Morris/ Molly dancers? "In February Lewis Hamilton was racially abused by Spanish Formula One fans who dressed up in wigs with blacked-up faces and "Hamilton's family" written on their T-shirts. Then in November four Oxford university rugby students, including the son of Richard Spring MP, the vice-chairman of the Conservative party, were reprimanded for blacking up and wearing loincloths to an African party. One of the participants, Phil Boon, who was also embroiled in a separate controversy surrounding an event entitled "Bring a Fit Jew to Dinner" said "Blacking up for the Safari Bop was just going along with that theme. We dress up for a lot of parties. I have not had people telling me that either of the themes were offensive." Yet for some people blacking up is clearly offensive. In 2006 Diane Abbott MP put a motion before parliament calling for the Mummer's Day festival in Padstow to be banned. But local MP Dan Rogerson defended the practice saying "It is not something local people have objected to. The tradition of blacking up is a very old one. It is not something that comes from Padstow, but around the rest of England and I don't think we should be picking on Padstow." |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:22 AM I was making a general statement there Ruth. I haven't seen them and am in no position to make comment. Obviously you see something offensive there and that is up to you. Political correctness has gone stupid and its important to ensure that such PC reaction is well founded. We won't be able to fart in our own toilet soon. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:15 AM 200+ posts late maybe but can I ask a few questions. 1. If I was to offend someone on this thread would they still be alive tomorrow? 2. If I was to black up for a dance or play tonight woud it make any difference to anything whatsoever? 3. Remember the old term 'sticks and stones can break my bones (no -not that sort!)~ but names can never hurt me'? Guess what. If someone offends me I may get a bit shirty. I'm over it tomorrow. Stage make-up has no bearing on anyones thoughts, charecter or intentions. I know because I have worn it. The old term is true. You are all adults. People give and take offence at all sorts of stupid things. Get over it. DeG |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:12 AM Maybe you haven't seen Flag and Bone dance, Villan. The effect is quite disturbing, and I assume that this is absolutely deliberate. Their bee-keeper's veils are shroud-like, which takes disguise to a whole new level. How unfortunate that, in what has been on the whole an interesting and informative discussion, you feel compelled to continually resort to personal digs. Maybe you'd be less defensive and aggressive if you could back up your arguments with evidence rather than emotion. When you can, I will be really interested to hear them. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM I see the racists are making capital out of this. Stormfront |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:55 AM Strikes me that you find anything sinister Ruth! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM I'll tellya what - I find them bloody sinister! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM The Flag & Bone Gang of Knaresborough revived some of the dances my grandfather used to play for. They hold clacking bones in their hands and wear beekeepers' veils. Who's going to find something sinister in that? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM before any group are booked in to a school,the school should research the group they are booking,this head teacher did not,she is clearly incompetent as well as ignorant,she should be reprimanded by the school governors. I find it so refreshing that traditional music has such eloquent ambassadors. Diplomacy's loss is clearly music's gain in this instance. If only one thing comes out of this it will be that poor Hazel King will never want to have anything to do with morris dancing as long as she lives. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:35 AM Yes, and don't you think that consistently leaving the "N" out of banjo is taking PCness just a tad too far? (Wonder who's actually read JKP's piece yet? Not many seem to have done after I linked to it a few days ago). |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:29 AM Ruth >>Villan, are your two border teams revival sides or traditional sides? How long have they been going? Where did their information about dancing "as their forefathers did" come from? << Thats exactly what I am trying to find out, and as I have said, when I get more concrete evidence I will feed back on it. If my eveidence proves to be innacurate, I will be the first to put my hands up and stop supporting Border Morris and blacking up. Maybe you should do the same. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:22 AM Greg: please see my last post on thius subject. I think the instruments are one element within a weight of evidence which point conclusively to border morris having had very close ties with minstrelsy. That's all. But just in case it's not clear, I'd like to state the following, absolutely and categorically: I do NOT believe that border morris dancers who black up are racist. I do NOT believe that border morris sides who black up should stop doing it. I just think they ought to know what the roots of the custom are and make an informed choice about it. I also hope they'd be brave enough to include this in their explanations if the public asks why blacking up is part of the tradition. I DO think that, before jumping all over this poor head teacher and giving her a piece of their mind, some people maybe ought to have made sure that the history they were citing as the root of their outrage and indignation was, in fact, true. I DO think that the proliferation of fakelore, especially as a means of covering up the more unpleasant aspects of our folk history, ought not to be encouraged. I do NOT place any restrictions or guidance on the booking of dance teams or bands at Sidmouth on any grounds other than quality. As it happens, Shropshire Bedlams are one of my favourite morris sides. I hope that makes my position very clear. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,HelenJ Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:21 AM This smacks of something which happened a few years ago. Mike Riley gave trad singing lessons to children in the north Manchester area. He was instructed not to sing The Boarshead Carol, it would offend Jews and others. He was also forbidden to teach songs about foxhunting (One assumes the foxes would be offended.) Where will this all end? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:21 AM I'm reluctant to join in this discussion, and have felt no need so far because Ruth, Royston and others have argued so well for my own point of view, but I feel a need to add my voice to those who find comments like this "I do not feel that black people should be offended by people browning/blacking up" to be wilfully misguided. It is not up to us to decide if someone should be offended or not by our actions. It is up to decent people to seek to avoid causing offence - as a matter of common courtesy, (or good manners to use the traditional term). And given the current political situation dancers should be thinking even more carefully about this practice, and how it may play out to the wider world. In 'closed' situations where there is an opportunity carefully to explain all the historical precedents (innocent and less so), black make-up might just be justifiable (as it might have been in this case), but in the street and on websites etc. dancers would do well to bear in mind that Morris is colourful, noisy and newsworthy - so punches above its weight in terms of public relations. Their choices will colour people's views on the whole folk scene. I'm well aware that folk music tends to attract people of a more conservative disposition (note the small c), and there may indeed be people with right wing / racist views dancing morris. These will no doubt hang on to their practices for more than one reason, but others need to beware of a 'territorial knee-jerk' reaction to change. The time line, as I see it, seems to go like this: 1) Origins of morris - possible parody of black skin = dodgy. 2) Guising to avoid recognition - innocent, but open to misinterpretation = dodgy. 3) Assumption of minstrelsy fashions - parody of black skin = dodgy. 4) Re-invention and modern popularisation - largely innocent but open to misinterpretation = dodgy. Trying to drill down on the details misses the main picture, which is that hanging on to this 'tradition' when there are viable alternatives is not really tenable or sensible. I know dancers enjoy shocking people (I remember my, then, very small son being freaked out by being chased by a dancer with a horse's skull on his head - the man plainly enjoyed his terror), but there are limits. Rather than writing to a hard-pressed head teacher who made an innocent mistake, I would rather write to the powers that be in the Morris world. Forgive my ignorance but there seem to be a number of rival factions. Who are the people of influence in this field? Tom |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:12 AM "But she appears to be drawing the deduction that not only is blacking up unacceptable, but also the playing of bajoes, tambourines, and bones is unacceptable." I didn't see her draw any such further conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:12 AM Malcolm, it's the collective elements: the black face, the "niggering", and the instruments which all make a strong case for border once being closely associated with minstrelsy. But it's very possible that the instruments you play, if histroical to the morris side you dance with and if they go back far enough, may once have been related to minstrelsy, too. It was hugely popular. But there is a big difference between putting on blackface and playing a banjo in terms of the potential offence caused in 2009. "Does this mean I'm a racist?" I have been at pains to say that I do not believe present-day border morris dancers to be racist simply because they black up. Villan, are your two border teams revival sides or traditional sides? How long have they been going? Where did their information about dancing "as their forefathers did" come from? People interested in the genesis of this "ancient tradition" might like to read the following article. John Kirkpatrick doesn't say much about the history of blacking up, but it does give an insight into how long border, as it is practiced in 2009, has been going... Border Morris - Roots and Revival |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM before any group are booked in to a school,the school should research the group they are booking,this head teacher did not,she is clearly incompetent as well as ignorant,she should be reprimanded by the school governors. meanwhile racism which involves people being attacked physically is still occurring unchecked,talk about tilting at windmills. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: greg stephens Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM I am a little concerned by Ruth Archer's stance on this issue, particularly as she is a booker for a big festival. She is saying that people should not black up because in the past blacking up was associated with imitating the minstrel troupes, and is thus essentially racist. She also quotes an item that says the use of bajoes, or bones, or tambourines also proves a link to the minstrel troupes. Now, this may or not be true. But she appears to be drawing the deduction that not only is blacking up unacceptable, but also the playing of bajoes, tambourines, and bones is unacceptable. I play in a band that regularly uses banjo and bones, and on occasion we've had a tambourine player sitting in.(As do many bands, Martin Brinsford in the Brasshoppers springs to mind). Is Ruth Archer saying that those instruments are unacceptable at Sidmouth, becaue they have been associated with minstrelsy in the past? And if not, why not? Because if blacking up is unacceptable on her grounds, then so are bajoes. And frankly, I find that idea absolutely plain barmy.AS well as grossly offensive to musicians who play the relevant instyruments, whether they are white, black or khaki. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:59 AM Richard Like you I have been investigating and have been in touch with 2 Border teams. I am concerned that I do not support anything that is rascist and therefore feel that I need to investigate further, to the point where it can be proven that blacking up in the Border Morris case was to do with disguise and not for any other reason. Having spoken to these 2 teams, it would seem that they are trying to keep the traditon going that their forefathers did. As far as they are concerned the issue of blacking up is related to disguise and nothing else. They only dance in their local villages. Make of that what you will. I will keep on coming back, as I find out more, whether it supports the disguise or other reasons. Looking at the video of Motley Morris, I find it difficult to believe that they are trying to take off black people. My imagination, does not stretch that far. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Bloke from Poole Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:56 AM Ruth quotes: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence." I have danced Cotswold to musos playing banjo, and tambourines - although I'm not sure about bones - spoons, though. Does this mean I'm a racist? (and guitar, ukelele, flute, recorder, even a tuba...) Dance sides of all shapes and sizes have used whatever instruments and musos were available. The above quote, however, is simply opinion ("would seem..." "cannot be...") It is perfectly possible that banjoes were popular at a given time as a result of minstrel shows. But someone who has learnt to play banjo as a result subsequently playing for a morris side doesn't provide a very convincing link to racism, intended or otherwise. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,DizzyLisa Motley Muso Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:47 AM We were booked on the strength of our website (which contains a link to our myspace page, containing over 700 photos) http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewAlbums&friendID=168289144 This was NOT a paid stand – it was a goodwill gesture to a local school. There was no loss of money involved but people had made space in their busy lives to attend. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:44 AM We can argue until we're blue in the face Maybe that's the idea? Dizzy Lisa - "over 20 years ago"? What, you mean this is a tradition that goes back to that dim and distant age slightly before Acid House? I'm amazed the archives have survived that long! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:41 AM the onus was on the head teacher,to check about morris sides,five minutes reserach on the computer by this ignoramus and this situation would have been avoided, and she could have booked a Cotswold Morris side,and the children would have learned about an English tradition. I do not find it offensive when japanese or black people whiten their face as disguise,consequently I do not feel that black people should be offended by people browning/blacking up. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:52 AM There will be a delay in further postings by me here, pending my receipt of further research. I have spent a half hour on the phone with a very well informed person who assures me inter alia that it is virtually certain that the oldest part of morris costume is blackface - but he is not computerate and I am going to have to print the thread and post it my snailmail to him, and then await his handwritten response that I will need to type up and post here. I would also say to Pip - thank you for your consideration but anyone who knows me in person will be well aware that I would rather be right than anything! What worries me is if I think I might be wrong, and for a while you had me rattled there, but I feel much more comfortable now. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Royston Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:24 AM Richard, of course you are not racist. Of all the people I know you are one of the furthest from that description. I do feel though that whilst your academic investigation of the roots of blackface, and your careful conclusions do not address the real issue of what people actually feel and nor does it address the overtly racist modern development of border morris. It also misses the overt public racism of some border morris practitioners, i.e. Their co.uk website. If anyone seriously believes that blacking up creates only imagined sleight in the minds of white folk then they are free to come to my place in Lewisham in full make-up. I won't stand alongside you but I promise to call the ambulance for you. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM DissyLisa Did you tell the school about blacking up when you took the booking? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,DizzyLisa Motley Muso Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:11 AM I was wary of adding anything to this thread as I know how quickly Mudcat often descends into mudsling. However I must speak in defence of Rick H who is one of the nicest people you could hope to meet. Who here has not castigated the chavvy element which spoil so many of our festivals – especially Sweeps. I get the point he was trying to make, though certain aspects could have been omitted. On the point of blacking up… yes we could change the colour of our faces and we have considered it. However the kit was designed to create visual impact over 20 years ago. Single bright colour tatters which provide a contrast to the black faces. We could paint our faces in the colour of our tatters but unless the face was exactly the same colour as the tatters – the impact would be lost. We have a vast array of colours and not all are available as face paints. The blacking is messy and sweaty in the summer but we feel that the visual effect is worth it. You can see us dancing here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonC7Wv_k5o |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: TheSnail Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:02 AM Just for the record, GUEST,Rick H has never posted to Mudcat before or since under that name and there is no-one called Rick among the named officers on the Motley Morris web site. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,baz parkes Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:07 AM Quoting Ruth "If sides who practice this tradition are going to black up, I'd much rather they were honest with themselves, and with anyone who might enquire about the tradition." I think those sides who care about the tradition are...it's those who dance a type of "border" because they like to wear fancy dress that don't. I've never seen Motley dance, so wouldn't like to judge here And Ruth again "from anything else, I don't like the spread of fakelore," And,again, neither do the sides that care... Sadly when you're just about to dance or play and someone asks you why you black up, you rarely have time to go through the options, and said member of the public has usuually disappeared by the time you have time to explain... |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:51 AM I think, having fired off a letter to the school, RB may now be reluctant to change his view. We can argue until we're blue(?) in the face, and it won't make a blind bit of difference. Oh, and 200 by the way. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:50 AM RB - on the instrumentation found by Cawte when he researched border morris, Roy Dommet writes: The number of concertina and melodeon instruments in use, when compared with the Cotswold Morris in the 19th century as described by Keith Chandler, indicates the later period from which the Border Morris has been drawn, as these instruments became cheap and readily available by the turn of the century. The percussion instruments were also those associated with the Nigger Minstrel Troupes which had been wildly popular since the middle of the 19th Century and who of course blacked their faces. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:49 AM Richard - it comes down to whether you'd rather be right and offensive, or wrong and well-liked. Or, in this case, offensive and mostly right but partly wrong, or well-liked and mostly wrong but partly right. The only way I would be willing to defend blacking up for Morris would be if (a) it was an ancient and unchanged tradition and (b) I was convinced that it had no connection with minstrelsy. Neither of these is true. Border has displaced other styles of dance in the revival within the last 30 years (i.e. post-Sex Pistols) - and there's plenty of evidence of overlaps and borrowings between older blacked-up dance styles and the minstrel form. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:35 AM from my first post in this thread, Richard, and again discussing the EDS article on blacking up from 2005: 'The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence." ' |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM There appears to be a time-discontinuity in the some of the above assertions that modern border dancing is irretrievably associated with minstrelsy. If the blackface part was added to the pre-FitzPatrick parts of border morris after the FitzPatrick revival, how does that link to the then extinct minstrelsy? Ruth also asserts that blackface border sides are linked to minstrelsy by the choice of instrument - but as far as I have seen hardly any use banjo, most use button melodeon and threepenny bit (English and Anglo), and some use violin. Some use recorder and whistles. Some use almost wholly percussion (Wychmen, noticeably). That does not look like minstrelsy. If we accept (as I think we must) that folk arts evolve (it is in the nature of "folk") then there seems at present no inhibition to saying that the "more convenient" method of blacking up using modern facepaint after the FitzPatrick revival lead to the spread (as also noted above) of blacking up after his revival, and there still seems no necessary link to minstrelsy. It also means that there is no reason that the tradition cannot evolve again to use other colours, but not in response to imposition. Sorry to disagree Royston. You know perfectly well that I am opposed to racial prejudice, but that does not mean bowing to offence at imagined slights. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:49 AM if you don't like it well that's too bad. Fine. I might call you an unthinking fool and an ignorant peasant. And if you don't like it, well that's too bad. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:46 AM It's interesting that this is the conclusion you've come to, Richard. I think we need to be less general, and ensure that we're not conflating the guising of popular custom (which in certain places inclueded blacking up) with blacking up as it specifically refers to the border morris tradition. My own opinion is this: the music, the instruments and the "going niggering", as it specifically is relevant to those dance sides from the border areas around Shropshire and Herefordshire, point to a very specific and strong case for the influence of minstrelsy on their tradition. Which came first, the blacking or the race songs, may never be fully answered, but all I know is that at one point in the not-too-distant past, the two became inextricably linked. I also believe that, in an effort to sweep under the carpet this uncomfortable history, the border morris fraternity has conflated certain old traditions of "smutting" the face with soot, which certainly DID exist, with their own tradition in order to give a more socially acceptable explanation for it. As I say, I can only speak for my own reading of the available evidence. But I'm also working from an awareness of how other traditions associated with blacking up and race, such as Padstow Darkie Day, have similarly tried to deny their racist roots because they do not want to be compelled to abandon their tradition (and we had a very interesting and lengthy discussion with the curator of the Padstow Museum ealrier this year, who has an extensive archive of overwhelming evidence for the influence of minstrelsy on that particular tradition). One point I think it is important to reiterate is that I do not believe that the intentions of the overwhelming majority of border morris dancers is to cause offence, nor do I think that blacking up to take part in their tradition makes them racist. Derek has said that it's about perception rather than intent, and some have argues that both need to be present for offence to be caused. My feeling is this: people who are unfamiliar with border morris and see it for the first time, whether they are people of colour or not, could construe it as being something to do with blacking up in the old, pejorative sense. Now, if the tradition had never, ever had anything to do with "bad" blacking up, its practitioners could turn around to those people and truthfully, hand-on-heart, explain that the tradition had absolutely innocent roots, that it was a form of disguise, etc etc, and there was no reason for anyone to misinterpret or take offence at such a harmless practice. But the fact is, border IS tainted by association with minstrelsy. The dances WERE called "niggering dances", and the music and songs associated with the tradition DID have racist overtones. Whether the blacking up or the "niggering" came first may never be proven, but the taint is there, and it's undeniable. If sides who practice this tradition are going to black up, I'd much rather they were honest with themselves, and with anyone who might enquire about the tradition. Apart from anything else, I don't like the spread of fakelore, especially in a case like this where it isn't evolving to fill in gaps in our knowledge but to actually cover up uncomfortable truths. And it leads to undesirable situations like morris dancers e-mailing a school to harangue them about who should dance at their fete. If the dancers in question had been fully aware of the history of this tradition, would they have been quite so quick to jump down the throat of that head teacher? I'd like to think not. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:42 AM What Royston said. Richard, The point here is about people's feelings which don't always equate to cold, hard facts. You seem to be saying that it is OK to offend (and maybe by extension persecute?) people if the "evidence" (that it is a traditional activity) supports it. That seems to be a deeply flawed argument to me. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,EricTheOrange Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:31 AM When I started playing for my local border side the musicians were expected to wear blackface, even though the dancers wore black and white. I wasn't happy with that, and felt extremely uncomfortable doing so. It may have taken more faffing around to do black and white brushwork, rather than a quick wipe over with a black sponge, but I felt a lot more comfortable about doing it. At the time I thought to myself "How would I attempt to justify this if i cam face-to-face with a black guy in the pub afterwards and he asked me why I blacked up?". I couldn't, in all honesty, not mention the connection with minstrelsy among the other connotations of blacking up. There you go, Eric the Orange, you can now empathise with me, a white man who was not happy about putting on a black face. Whats wrong with that? Seems sensible. I'd probably want to do the same. But you're taking action about something because of how you feel not how you think somebody else might feel. Let me explain why I think it's an important point. On my mother's side I'm part of a community which has experienced some terrible racism directed against it in the past and still has a tough time today, though it's not based on skin colour. What often happens is that some well meaning soul takes some action on our behalf though most of us usually are not bothered about the issue concerned and are quite able to speak for ourselves when we are. What then happens is that this is fuel for the racists who say that we get privileged treatment. Its used as justification for more attacks even though we never asked for that treatment. My personal experience is that minority communities just want to get on with their lives and be treated the same as everybody else. They don't want people taking action on their behalf based upon what they *think* the community needs they just want people to listen when they say what they need. In the case of the school if people had expressed concerns then thats one thing but otherwise the school is just taking a decision based on the colour of some of their pupils skin which however well intentioned and unintentional is still just another form of racism in that it's treating people differently based on race. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Morris-ey Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:29 AM My final word on this: Blacking-up in Border has nothing to do with racism; too many white middle class folk are too eager to assume offence on behalf of others; if a border side wants to black-up that fine by me; if you don't like it well that's too bad. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:26 AM it still seems perfectly proper to state (as I did) that the genesis of blacking up was not racist I agree, more or less. But I don't think that's got any bearing on whether we should do it now, or on whether we should take account of people's objections to it now. Going back to your responses to Les: 1. Some of us are uneasy and some of us are offended RB: That is not the point. Are those of you correctly uneasy or offended? Even if the offence being taken could be shown to be 100% inappropriate, I would still be uneasy - because the offence is real and widespread, and it's tending to perpetuate the image of English traditional culture as all-white and reactionary, an image we could all do without. 2. "Border Morris" sides have been willing to change almost anything and they have created a very exciting version of The Morris. RB: So what? If the style allows for change, something like this can be changed. As I've said before, when I was a kid you would never see a black-face side. I strongly suspect that the Border style of performance became popular as a break with what was then seen as a rigid, unchanging tradition. To find people now insisting that every element of the Border style must be maintained unchanged, in the name of the heritage of English culture, is a bit ridiculous. (On 'chav', incidentally, the OED agrees with me - and in sheer common-sense terms it's hard to imagine where else the word would have come from. You're right to say that lots of people called 'pikeys' weren't Romani; that's why I specifically linked it to anti-Traveller racism.) |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Royston Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:12 AM Richard, I love you dearly but you have just expended a lot of effort to prove something that is not relevant to the offence people might feel and the concerns held by the chantry school. The fect, if it is so, that morris-men blacked up for disguise before minstrelsy existed does not alter the fact that, now, blackface as we see it, carries heavy racial baggage. You asked for references on the "Clee Hill...Niggering" quote. All that matters is that the morris dancers at the website www.bordermorris.co.uk chose to publish that description, including the 'N' word to assist the public's understanding of border morris as those practitioners understand it. Now ask why, if blackface disguise was a marginal practice by a few border-dwellers, and one that had died out until resurrected by Kirkpatrick in a new interpretation about 40 years ago, do we see at any morris festival, a sea of blackened faces - total coverage, not coal/cork streaks of disguise? If it is NOT traditional, NOT an ubiquitous custom, NOT important, IS tainted by modern racist overtones and DOES risk offence then we DON'T need it, do we? Plenty of morris sides get on quite well - and better - without blackface. Some go black with decoration, some go in dirty streaks which must be the most authentic version and some go in rainbow colours. Those people are the standard-bearers for our tradition. I started this debate with a belief that blackface was all about coal dust and miners. Then I learned it was about disguise ans was just one of many coloured disguises in Morris tradition. Then I read more and found a lot of evidence for racist connotations (whether or not those connotations were at the genesis of the practice) and then I found present-day morris men gleefully talking about Niggering on the 'definitive' border morris website. Then I saw my friends slamming, against all the evidence of unpleasantness around the blackface issue, the hapless headteacher for her decision without even stopping to consider the situation poperly. I saw my friends, claiming to support our traditions, effectively 'fighting for the right' to upset fellow citizens for no good reason and, by refusing to offer authentic disguised-morris in another medium of make-up, lose a chance to get into a multi-racial school and show off our traditions - and you call yourselves upholders of folk tradition? Then finally we got RickH of Motley Morris itself showing the true blackface and bemoaning the fact he "unfortunately" lived alongside Afro-Caribbean people. Shame, shame, shame. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Dazbo at work Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:08 AM Out of interest how many border teams that black up actually have had people come up and tell them they've been offended or that they're being racist? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Jun 09 - 09:53 PM Thank you again Ruth for a rational and researched comment. As to some others, as I have said, offence may be taken based on ignorance, and that should not be pandered to - but it may well be wise to explain the correct position. That position would (on the evidence considered here so far) seem to be that there has been a pre-minstrelsy custom of guised dancing, and that the colour chosen was likely in some cases to have been a matter of convenience but that in some cases it was black. On that basis it still seems perfectly proper to state (as I did) that the genesis of blacking up was not racist. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Smokey. Date: 30 Jun 09 - 09:00 PM But "being offensive" is not in the eye of the perpetrator, it is surely in the eye of the beholder. I'd have thought that for 'offence' to be any more than an unfortunate misunderstanding, it has to be both given and taken. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 30 Jun 09 - 08:44 PM No-one has responded to my query : "I'm interested to hear from any side that has discussed the matter of blackface rationally, considered the evidence, wondered if they might be causing offence and then made a decision to retain the blackface or change to a different colour or drop the blackface altogether." However Vic Smith has responded with similar sort of examples from his local folk club. Another example of this is that Francis Shergold of Bampton used to sing a song "Rum tum taddle um, old John Braddlum". He wouldn't have known that it was a minstrelsy song, but it does include the N word. But then Reg Hall, their musician, married Claire, from Jamaica, and Francis changed the words to avoid the N word so as not to cause offence. His sister Ruth doesn't sing, but knows the song (it was in the family) but I remember her declining to sing it in company because she would naturally sing the old words. I used to sing The Shearing's Not for You ... a beautiful tune, but the words (in Stephen Sedley's book The Seeds of Love) indicate that the song is about rape. A re-assessment of my song repertoire many years ago led to that song being dropped. You have to consider the changing times in which we live. Just because something is, supposedly, traditional, does not mean it HAS to be kept... cock fighting was traditional, so was bear-baiting and hanging.... well, back to Border Morris ... recent posters do not seem to have picked up on this bit of my long message: << And now, the plethora of Border Morris sides that black up ... I am sure that they do not set out to be "offensive". But "being offensive" is not in the eye of the perpetrator, it is surely in the eye of the beholder. >> Incidentally, I found the message from Rick H, the Motley dancer, offensive. I might just email the head teacher and congratulate her on her decision...... Derek about any sides that black up and who have had the discussion about whether they should or not, based on |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:58 PM "...is unacceptable to call a Jew a 'yid'" True enough - nnless of course you were speaking in Yiddish. Strange how these things work. Offensiveness is about the intention of the person causing offence, or the sensibilities of the person who feels offended, and it should wherever possible be avoided. But sometimes situations arise where the objection comes from someone who is not personally offended, and where there is no suspicion of intent to offend, but the objection is on behalf of hypothetical offence to people who have not made any objection. And that can have unfortunate consequences. Derek Schofield's post seems to get it pretty well right. There's a whole range of colours available which avoid any risk of causing misunderstanding, and which are just as much in keeping with a tradition that has incorporated all kinds of changes. (Ab exception to this perhaps being the Rochester Sweeps tradition, since soot is intrinsic to that and it doesn't come in other colours. But then a soot smeared face doesn't really look much like "blackface".) |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM Quote: "The face blacking is a tradition to prevent dancers from being recognised by local worthies and potential employers - in the border regions where the border morris style originated. It is echoed in blackface molly dancing from the East Anglian regions. The face blacking is not a racist reference to black skin." Another, oft-heard, quote: "All these blacks look the same to me." So blacking up "to avoid recognition" never has racist connotations, eh? You don't have to black your face. You can change that "tradition" very easily. If you don't want to, you should make it clear in your promotional material that you black up. I'm one hundred percent behind this head teacher. If loads of you have really bombarded the school with protest emails, shame on you. You don't happen to share her opinion, that's all. I hope she has more sense than to waste time responding. I see a rather ugly side of this tradition being displayed here. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM "In today's context it should not be used. Does that unfortunate use illuminate whether the blacking up was a reflection of "nigger minstrel" shows, or a reflection of earlier guising?" Sharp mentions blacking up, but as something that is uncommon at the time of writing and which is largely consigned to the past (though he makes it clear that his notions of it having been once widespread are conjecture). He also doesn't say how long ago this practice might have been common - and as minstrelsy had entered into British popular culture as much as 70 years before the time of writing, it is very difficult to say whether Sharp refers to a time within the past 70 years, or to an earlier time. However, as Derek's article said, "There are references to people blacking up as a form of disguise in popular custom, although in Heaney and Forrest's book 'Annals of Early Morris', there is only one reference to black-faced morris dancers in the period they studied (up to 1750), and that is from the mid-sixteenth century." So up to 1750, blacking up would appear not to have been a widespread custom within morris; but Sharp talks about it possibly being widespread in the past (some time prior to 1912). It is very difficult to say whether border or Anglian morris had a blacking up tradition prior to minstrelsy, at least from this evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM is it alright to cover the face in white disguise ?. yes ,of course it is,we whities dont take offence. immigrants coming to this country have to accept the traditions of England,that is part of integration,in the same way if I went to [for example] Venice, I would have respect for the traditions and customs,I would not expect them to change their traditions,because someone was wearing a white Venetian mask |
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