BS: Peloton

Subject: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:19 AM

I've been a tad surprised that, during the last couple of days of the Tour de France, Armstrong hasn't made more of a push for the yellow jersey - if Paganini came back from the dead, I doubt he'd play second-fiddle! He is 37 now - should we be questioning Armstrong's leg-strength?!

And, whatever the racing, great shots, from the host TV broadcaster, of some beautiful places - one or two of which I enjoyed visiting on my walkabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:16 AM

He is sitting in third, something like 10 seconds off the leader (who will drop off quickly) and 2 behind Contador. I expect him to try to hold right there for at least another week - it's possible to win the Tour and NEVER win a stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM

I agree, AB, but if he'd gone with Contador on that first climbing stage, or pushed to close the gap, he'd have had the prestige of the yellow, that he surely wants, for a few days now.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM

There is SO much strategy in trying to win this race. If one goes all out to get in yellow and stay there, the whole team become a target and folks who might 'help' at one point will cease helping.
Any of the top 3 in Astana (as well as 2-3 others) are capable of trying to win, and it is not clear yet that Armstrong can beat Contador.
There is no use in wearing one's self out when there are no major challenges to overall position. The point is to win in Paris, not to be as macho as possible.

It mat well come down to who is feeling strongest in the Alps...and *IF* Armstrong, Contador & Leipheimer are all still within 10-15 seconds, it will be very interesting! Armstrong always wants to win, but Contador would love to prove HIS win was no fluke, and Leipheimer...and Cadel Evans and a couple others have never won.

I personally look for the 1st day in the Alps to be a test to see who is ready...and then 2 stages of "Ok, lets go SEE who is best!"

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:10 PM

I think your analysis is accurate, Bill. Although, the second day in the Alps may tell the tale because it may be a choice determined by peaking (sorry) on the proper day. If Armstrong is peaking on day one, he will go for it. If not, he will have to go for it on day two, depending on the times.

Of course, the same applies to them all and they are all there for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:11 PM

some interesting reading

Seems Contador's sprint the other day was against orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:20 AM

And how about the team time trial: I accept that the team is important to whoever has the yellow in Paris, anyway - but does the inclusion of a team time trial make it too important..? I.e: is it fair on contenders in less-strong teams..?

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM

What we have to remember, Bill, is that Armstrong does not own this team as he did the previous teams Bruyneel directed for him. The commentators keep calling it "Lance's Team," but it's not his team.

This means that Bruyneel, who sets the race strategy and reports to the team owner who pays him, gets to say who rides for whom. The current posturing is for the influencing of the owner-- "Who do you REALLY believe can win this puppy for you?"-- and the riders-- "Who will youse guys carry to the top of Ventoux?"-- more than for anyone else.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM

I think the whole thing would be better if there were more cheating. Racing of any sort has a fine tradition of cheating. Sorrowfully, rules in most racing types have been so tightly written and enforced that another fine tradition has been trampled in the dust.

I think with the fine folks of Mudcat, traditions are important! So write in to the governing body of your favorite racing organization and tell them to open things up and bring cheating back to their sport.   Its the tradition and it needs to be respected.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM

But Spaw, if you do that, it's legal, so it's no longer cheating. A Catch-22 for ya!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM

LOL @ Unc....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:49 AM

"What we have to remember, Bill, is that Armstrong does not own this team ..."

Oh, I am aware of that....the relevance of my comment is that Contador, if we are to believe the story is correct, was trying to ride on his own. Lance made some comment about.."well...I have to follow the rules.." and "Alberto is ambitious.."

I'd suspect Bruyneel has 'had a talk' with the various parties....

Yesterdays stage was relatively slow because no one in the breakaway was really important. Astana could have totally dominated if they needed to....instead, they got an easy day with little pressure or danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM

Good thing the scenic shots are so good: I thought the stage today was far more "tour" than "race" - until the last 10km, i.e.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

That's almost always the way with flat stages. The sprinters play at the end, and most everyone else just tries to avoid trouble and stay close.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM

Exactly right, Bill. Don't look for anything much to happen until they get into the Alps next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 04:59 AM

Yesterday was similar - mostly flat, breakaway caught in last 10km, then Cavendish sprinting in great form...bit more climbing today, though, it seems..?

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:04 PM

The climbs tomorrow should make things more interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:07 PM

Just a change of who goes off in the breakaway...

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM

Yes Bill - and not much else happened re. the main contenders..?

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:59 PM

One BIG thing happened....Leipheimer is out with a broken wrist! Now Poooor Astana only has 3 guys in the top 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM

I was thinking along those lines, Bill - perhaps the main reason why, thus far, it's been much more "tour" than "race" is that 4/now 3 of the top riders are all on the one team.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 08:11 AM

It took a very steep climb indeed, but now, with a week to go, we have a race - fine effort from Wiggins yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 08:59 AM

Contador's break on the climb yesterday put him over a minute ahead (and in yellow), and Armstrong basically said he is out of competition and will be a support rider for the last week. Remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM

Oh my... hadn't checked in yet today.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:41 PM

It seems evident that Armstrong can't beat Contador on climbs....but Lance is STILL one of the best climbers and all-around riders today. He could end up on the podium......and...Contador could fall down like Liepheimer. It does happen. Best to stay close, ride support like Klöden and all 3 could be close in Paris.

(I'm SURE Astana is reading my advice... *grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM

Well... as much as would like to see Lance stuff it up the asses of his nasty detractors over the years, may the best man pedal his ass off. Seriously, Lance is the best there ever was. He need prove nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:16 PM

Fantastic shots of the Alps in today's stage, but not much change among the leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM

Seriously, Lance is the best there ever was.

I disagree (well, we know that is just a subjective ranking).
For me the best is still Eddy Merckx (that's an opinion I share with, among many others, Armstrong).

Today, the cyclists take one big event and everything else is just preparation. Merckx in his time raced (and won) all the springtime classics like Paris-Roubaix, Milano-San Remo, Liege-Bastogne-Liege.

He still is the only cyclist who has won all jerseys (green, red, yellow, polka dot) more than once and even in one year all of them in one Tour. He would have been awarded the white jersey too if that had existed then. He has won more Tour etappes than anyone else and leads by number of days wearing the yellow jersey. He was a man for the long solo flights over several cols, something oner rarely sees today.

My sentimental heroes:
Joop Zoetemelk, one time winner and 6 times second in the Tour, who took part 16 times and arrived each single time.
Raymond Poulidor, who made the Paris podium eight times without a single Tour win. He not even once wore the yellow jersey and is in my opinion the best ever cyclist who has no yellow jersey to show. He should have won in 1964, but Anquetil bluffed legendarily at Puy de Dome.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM

Yes, and from what I can gather, Wolfgang, the Tour de France was already a huge event when Merckx won all jerseys.

I was surprised that Armstong came back, but now I think it's to do with his own team that he's just announced - maybe he'll be a rider, briefly, then a director of it..?

Also, how about the idea of a most-stage-winners jersey, whereby, if 2 or more cyclists were on the same number, it would stay with the first one to reach that number..?

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:51 PM

I only became a fan when Greg LeMond began winning, but I saw the other day a presentation on the career of Fausto Coppi, who won only twice, but seemed to be an amazing talent in his day.

"dominant international cyclist of the years each side of the second world war. His successes earned him the title Il Campionissimo, or champion of champions. He was an all-around racing cyclist, he was the best in both climbing and time trialing, and was also a great sprinter. He won five times the Giro d'Italia (1940, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953), twice the Tour de France (1949 and 1952), the World Championship in 1953, the Giro di Lombardia in 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1954, the Milan-Sanremo in 1946, 1948 and 1949, the Paris-Roubaix and the La Flèche Wallonne in 1950 and set the hour record (45.798 km) in 1942."

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM

I've watched bits and pieces over the years via SBS in Australia, plus Eurosport here in England, and remember back to the likes of Fignon from France and Indurain from Spain. And, as you suggest, Bill, there probably are some who could have won more Tours but chose to "smell the roses"; the fact remains, though - Armstong HAS won 7.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM

And placed third as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:47 PM

No surprises today...I can't remember the last time the race was decided on the Champs, but it's been many years. For me, the two biggest surprises were that so many people expected Armstrong to pull it out of his hat again and, conversely, that he did as well as he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM

Yes, Gnu and Art - but I think one regret Armstrong may have is that if he'd pushed harder, and gone with Contador, during that early stage, he (rather than Noncentini) would have held the yellow (again) for several days.

Subject: RE: BS: Peloton
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM

Perhaps, but, in the end, at his age, why not go for all the gold?

Hehehe... thar's gold in them that hills!

In any case, it was an amazing spectacle of human mental and physical perseverence and endurance. Everyone on wheels in "Le Tour" is to be lauded. No losers... only winners.