BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:33 PM

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:25 PM

"Gates, by the way, is quite short..."

          Suffers from "Little Man Syndrome," I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:04 PM

Only in America can such stupid leaders exist to the extent that we have

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:48 PM

What next???

A constitutional ammendment??? Impeachment???

When will all the petty politics end???

I mean, here you have a Republican Congressamn introducing a bill into Congress that would force Obama to apologize??? Is this a joke, 'er what???

Come on, ya'll... This shit is way out of hand...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:04 PM

The needle has just moved from "Overblown" to "Utterly Ridiculous".

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: GUEST,fretless
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:47 PM

Gates, by the way, is quite short -- under stress people of course will describe what they think they see, but it is still hard to imagine him being accurately described as a "large" man, black or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

(I don't say. Gates says.)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM

"Large" is a relative term...and it depends upon the (visual) viewpoint of the person using it. You say she was too far away to say that the chauffer was black??? Say what? How far away do you have to be for that, and will it also then impair your ability to determine the relative size of someone who is attempting to force open a door? ;-)

Sounds to me more like Gates was expecting what he was expecting...to be treated in a racist manner by some white people...regardless of whether that was really the case or not. Those who are determined to be deeply offended in some fashion are seldom disappointed in their negative expectations.

The smart thing to do, in any case, is remain calm and cooperative with investigating police officers, not start yelling at them and getting all high-handed about how you are someone "important" who is going to get them into a shitload of trouble for daring to question you.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:23 PM

. . . description given to Crowley . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:21 PM

Gates said that the description given to Gates of "two large black men" is "the worst case of racial profiling [he] has ever seen in [his] life," even after decades of studying the subject. He says that he is not large. Furthermore, even though his chauffer is black, you wouldn't be able so see that from down the street – just that he had black hair.

Strange, though, that Crowley recalls and describes a ~very~ specific conversation with the neighbor and she says she never spoke with him at all. (Wrong neighbor . . ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM

Yes, when you are making a report to the police it's natural (and also expected) that you should describe any observable features of the suspects...including their skin color. It is not a racist action to describe a "Black man" as a "Black man", for heaven's sake, nor should it be taken so, and it's not "profiling" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

Why does the neighbor who called the police need a lawyer??? She did nothing wrong. Even if she had mentioned the race of the people she saw trying to enter the house, it would have been a natural thing to do to describe the suspects. And what does her race, whether she was olive skinned or not, etc. have to do with anything ????

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

Just off the ticker. And if one part of the police report is being questioned, where does that leave the rest of it?

.............
(CNN) -- The woman who made the 911 call that led to the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. never referred to race when she contacted authorities for what she thought was a potential break-in, her attorney told CNN on Monday.
Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.
"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy said. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."
She added, "I'm not sure what the police explanation will be. Frankly, I don't care. Her only goal is to make it clear she never described them as black. She never saw their race. ... All she reported was behavior, not skin color."
Calls to the Cambridge Police Department about the issue have not been returned. In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.
"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."
Murphy's comments add yet another layer of intrigue to the July 16 arrest that has prompted heated discussion across the nation on race relations in America.
Murphy also disputed accounts of her client as a white woman in the traditional sense. "The fact is she's olive-skinned and of Portuguese descent. You wouldn't look at her and say necessarily, 'Oh, there's a white woman.' You might think she was Hispanic," Murphy said.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:39 AM

That sounds about right to me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:19 AM

Are you implying that she's incorrect?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:59 PM

Hillary is blaming the whole thing on testosterone!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:26 PM

Looking at the repeat posts. Too many to count. How many ways can the same thing be said?

Waltz me around again, Willie,
Around, around, and around.....

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:13 PM

why o why is profiling the first thing on everyone's mind---especially Gates. Police called to a possible break-in and question the person there---not profiling in my book. Only Prof. Gates.

Cop stops you while walking in the "wrong" neighborhood--that's profiling. Answering a call for a possible burglary is protecting people---and, as I said, earlier, how is the officer to know that there is not someone else in the house or that the ID was not stolen from a victim.   Step outside--explain the situation---best way to go. But, according to reports that was not the intelluctual's reaction---frankly, sounds more like a confrontation that the prof. resented due to economic and intellectual differences and now hangs his hat on "racism" or "profiling"---we await the arrival of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to add some more kindling to the event.

It is, however, sad that the Pres. got himself involved when all he had to say to the reporter's legitimate question is that he needs to ascertain the facts of what happened and that it is not a critical world situation for me to deal with.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:52 PM

Sounds like a good plan. (smile) If they all took a little time to find out exactly what the other guy was thinking, and feeling...and why...then they might find they got along better. Obama is on the right track to say what he did. And he also, of course, has to somehow bring this thing to a positive resolution so he can get on with something that actually matters. I wish him the best of luck in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:40 PM

Oh I'm sorry I thought it was Gates who first called the drink-up a "teaching moment." I see that it was Obama.

"My hope is that as a consequence of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment, where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other ... and that instead of flinging accusations, we can all be a little more reflective in terms of what we can do to contribute to more unity."

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:38 PM

Well, John, if you are Obama, I think you need to sit down, have a beer with yourself, shake your own hand with your other hand, and forgive yourself for those various little past errors in judgement. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM

Tempest in a teapot sums it up nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

I wouldn't necessarily think the cops were stupid. They have been around a long enough time to see various people impersonating others and being afraid to talk etc.

I had a phone that malfunctioned and somehow the police were summoned. We called them right back and said there was no problem -- that some button had been pushed on a phone that someone else had preset and there was no disturbance.

Well, several minutes later they came anyway. They took both me and my roommate aside and asked both of us separately if there was any problem. Nope. We showed them the phone.

At another place I lived recently, where there is a huge amount of meth, the police banged on my door...I opened the door because I could see flashing lights etc..lots and lots of police on my doorstep. They asked if they could look for someone I had never heard of and I let them in...I can see how it would be scary to many people, and I realize I am of an age and gender and yes, ethnicity, that makes me a low target of police suspicion, but I do believe I should take my turn with police interactions.

For some reason, mostly when I was younger, I hit some profile with Canadian immigration. I would be pulled off buses, once I was not allowed to enter on my way to Newfoundland because I had too much money with me...no..I think I had to cancel the trip to Newfoundland which is why I hadt he money and decided to just have a nice long weekend in BC...everyone else in line could be dressed like a gangster might perhaps dress and I dressed like Anne of Green Gables and would still get hauled off the bus, out of cars etc...who knows...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:03 PM

I might be Obama. It's a complicated physics project I've been working on.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:58 PM

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:56 PM

Well, whether his conlusion was correct or incorrect, my point is that he should have kept quiet about it; it wasn't for him to jump into the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:53 PM

Yeah, he jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:34 PM

Obama's mistake was not what he thought; it was running off his mouth about it. That struck me as an uncharacteristic slip-up on his part, and I imagine it will be a long while before he makes a blunder like that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:16 PM

"Politicians do not apologize. They clarify previous remarks."

Ha! Ain't it the truth, Peace? ;-) Obama's a bit unusual though, because he actually does apologize for things he has said or done now and then. It's extraordinary that he would, but he does.

I think the same thing though as heric, who said: "No, he was just drawn to the puff of smoke as we all were."

Anyone's first reaction to a man being arrested by cops at his own house on a house-breaking check would be: "Geez! What idiots those cops must have been!"

It was the kind of story where you will immediately form that conclusion on the first hearing. Obama got caught, in my opinion, the same way any of us would have been...including John Hardly. ;-) You betcha! (to quote Sarah Palin)

Now you add to that, that Gates is a personal friend of Obama's and a man whom Obama knows and respects...and hey, is it at all surprising that Obama would have figured the cops were in the wrong?

Is it? Ask yourself that, for heaven's sake. Anyone in Obama's position would have intially figured that the cops must have been in the wrong.

It's a tempest in a teapot. Tempest in a teapot. Tempest in a teapot. You'd have made the same mistake, John, if you'd been Obama. Forget about it and get on with something that actually matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:09 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM

OKAY then here's a toast to Professor Gates and "teaching moments"! ~braaAP~

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM

And to you.

I seldom drink beer, so you'll have to have another for me, OK? Not that I never HAVE had any beer. Au contraire. I don't mind a glass or two when I wake up, and another with breakfast is ok. Then one or two afterwards to settle the food. Perhaps a few pints before lunch and the maybe a quart to settle the old tummy. Mid-afternoon seems like a good time for a few leading to the pre-dinner (what I call supper) sampling of various brews. A nice cool lager or stout with dinner and perhaps some room-temperature ale before sunset. With the downing of the sun one might enjoy some ice-cold Kokanee with maybe some lime or lemon. Then a six-pack before watching the stars at night. BUT, this damned sip-sip-sipping all the time has GOT to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

Hey Bruce, I'll have a beer by myself anytime, so here's a toast to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

Politicians do not apologize. They clarify previous remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

. . and he can't apologize for his comment yet, other than its prematurity, because it may have been correct. If he comes down on Crowley's side now he would be making the same mistake twice. He'll finesse this.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM

No, he was just drawn to the puff of smoke as we all were.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:36 AM

"...Gates, for his own self-aggrandizement, was willing to destroy a man's career and turn him into a national pariah? "

And the President of the United States joined him in the attempted destruction and has yet to apologize for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

Not a chance, Liz. OK, maybe the Diet Coke--that stuff always tasted like warm piss to me,

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:08 AM

Bet I'd have to buy my own beer/diet coke. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:26 AM

Well, here's a thing to ponder. Recognizing that we STILL don't know the facts but have collected a few more, and that we will never know what is inside a man's mind - his experiences and whatever else drives him - doesn't it look so far as if Gates, for his own self-aggrandizement, was willing to destroy a man's career and turn him into a national pariah? Any man will do to serve his agenda, it seems he does not care. And only by the luck of the draw was it not a man with lesser credentials and skills than Crowley.

His latest statement says "this is not about me." So he learns, but he seems to be a very slow learner.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:11 AM

According to the police report the officer made, Mr. Gates never touched him and officer was never in physical danger. Nor was he inciting a riot or other neighborhood uprising.

Did he arrest him in order to save face? If he objected to Mr. Gates' "loud and tumultuous voice", all he had to do was leave.

"It is not against the law to mouth off at a policeman.   It's not smart, but it's not against the law. So the job of the police is not easy." Ron Davies

"The law is aimed not at mere irascibility but rather at unruly behavior likely to set off wider unrest. Accordingly, the behavior must take place in public or on private property where people tend to gather. While the police allege that a crowd had formed outside Gates' property, it is rare to see a disorderly conduct conviction for behavior on the suspect's own front porch." heric

Being a jerk - even a loud one - is not illegal. I suspect that a white person has no concept of what it is like to be confronted by a White police officer while being Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:51 PM

I'd have a beer with you anytime, Joe. That's a fer sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:39 PM

I bet there was. It sure is something how a lot of people will insist on waving the red flag right in the bull's face, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:32 PM

Puts me to mind of the time in the early 50s when I was working in a poor section of Newark. Most of the cops were lower-class Italians; most of the other citizens were lower-class blacks. It didn't take long to realize that one sure way to push an Italian's buttons was to call him a motherfucker. And that phrase, at the time, constituted about 25% of the street's vocabulary. There was a lot of head busting.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:30 PM

I would agree that Gates is probably the person primarily to blame. He may even be the person entirely to blame. Okay, fine. He overreacted and created an unnecessary scene, but no one got killed, nothing got damaged, and everybody's basically okay now. So wouldn't it be nice if he, the media, the cops, the political parties, and everybody else here could all just get over it?

This would require calming down a bit, of course, letting bygones be bygones, resisting the temptation to score some cheap shots on old enemies, and swallowing a wee bit of pride. Hmm?

Or is it more satisfying to stay upset?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:16 PM

Who says Mudcat can't change the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:13 PM

I think if we all spent more time drinking beer together, we'd have a lot fewer misunderstandings. It was the cop who suggested the three-way beer break to Obama, and Obama and Gates agreed. But hey, it was Bruce Murdoch who posted it here first, long before the cop's proposal.
Have a beer on me, Bruce!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 09:51 PM

Yes, the initial call to police stated that two men with backpacks were forcing open the door of the house:


"According to a police report ...a neighbor saw the two men "wedging" their shoulders into the door "to force entry" and phoned police.

This is where the two accounts of the incident diverge. Gates maintains he was discriminated against from the outset, but Crowley reports that he initially asked Gates to come and speak with him, to which Gates responded, "No, I will not."

Despite Gates' attitude and later accusations, Crowley reported that he was quickly satisfied that Gates was the homeowner. His next step was to determine whether there were, in fact, actual burglars who might still be in the residence. For all Crowley knew, Gates had arrived after the phone call had been made and might be walking in on a burglary.

After asking Gates whether there were other people inside, Crowley said the professor yelled to him that it was "none of my business and accused me of being a racist police officer." Gates also had picked up a phone and, while warning Crowley that he had no idea who he was "messing with," telephoned the police department. Undeterred, Crowley asked Gates for identification. After initially refusing, Gates presented his Harvard credentials.

Ironically, it wasn't during their exchange that Gates wound up being arrested. After the officer had exited the residence and was preparing to leave, Gates continued to hurl epithets. Crowley warned him twice that he was becoming disorderly and would be placed under arrest if he didn't calm down. Gates ignored the warnings and the officer arrested him. "

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 09:01 PM

"include a quote or two from his subsequent press statement"

In which he still maintained that the situation was one of two people equally at fault -- he merely called them "Two good men", but that still doesn't change the fact that he blamed the officer when there was no blame there to be had. And he also still maintained that the situation was about race. It only became about race because of Gates and Obama. It was NEVER about race to the police officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:51 PM

"He couldn't have KNOWN what the police officer was thinking. How could he?"

A re-read of the article is worthwhile. Gates is not only a narcissist and a drama queen, he has the ability to read minds. Crowley really didn't know who he was messing with.