BS: 40 years of Charles Manson

Subject: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 08:55 AM

Thought I'd see where are thoughts are 40 years after the fact.
I think of the victims and how many of them suffered. The fact that it could have been anybody, but it wasn't, it was them. How all their families have dealt with such a horrific tragedy.
There's not much left for me to know about Manson and "The Family", although I recently heard one of the songs that Brian Wilson recorded. I'm quite sure that Manson will never see the outside world ever again, but what about the girls. I know that Susan Atkins has a parole hearing scheduled for September and Leslie Van Houten has been a model prisoner and recieved a BA and Masters degree. She is also seeking parole. When is enough, enough?
As much as they have changed their lives and the part of them that fell under Manson's evil spell is a distant memory, I don't think they should see the light of day either. I suspect that neither of these women would spit on a sidewalk, if they were ever released, but the debt they owe will only be paid in full when they remove their bodies from whatever institution they're in!

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: GUEST,Guest - John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 09:54 AM

Greetings from my new laptop. This is a new, uncomfortable experience for awhile. But I will persevere.

I generally pay the Mansons no never mind. They've been dead to me for years. They all should have been gased or injected 39 years ago. Only bad timing in the legal system has allowed them to live.

The state wasted its resources in paying to educate someone who should be shut off from society for all time. As to being a model prisoner, WTF else is van Houten going to be? There's not much troble one can get into being locked up most of a day. The money spent on those degrees could have put several deserving kids through school.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:00 AM

Let them die in jail. The crimes they committed with literally horrific and horrifying. THEY made a choice, now they should live with the consequences -- and it was done with the intent of starting a "race war" in the US.

As they say, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: meself
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:14 AM

I don't know (well, yes, more money should be spent by the state on higher education). I saw an interview some years ago now with one of the Manson women. She said (as I recall), "If I had been executed, I never would have had to face what I had done. I wanted to be executed. I would have gone to my death thinking I was right. Now I wake up every day knowing I'm one of the destroyers instead of being one of the creators."

So - I suppose it depends on your sense of what the purpose of judicial punishment should be ....

(Btw, even though it's a laptop, you are not obligated to put it in your lap. You're allowed to put it anywhere that's comfortable for you - even on your desk!)

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: meself
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:16 AM

(That was responding to JotSC's post).

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: pdq
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:33 AM

The house on Cielo Drive where the Manson murders were perpetrated was the former home of Terry Melcher.

Melcher was asked by Manson to give him a recording contract with Columbia where Melcher was working as a record producer.

Manson was a friend of Beach Boys' Dennis Wilson, the only one of the group who actually surfed. Manson has co-author credit on at least one Beach Boys' song.

Melcher's refusal to sign him angered Manson enough to seek revenge. He apparently believed that Melcher was still living in the house when the gang broke in.

The story that Manson wanted to foment a race war with Blacks is true, but it was not the reason for the 1969 mayhem. I don't believe anyone Black was involved, victim or perpetrator.

Melcher was important in creating the Byrds signature sound and probably got Bruce Johnston to join the Beach Boys when Brien Wilson had his problems. He was also the son of Doris Day.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM

I always thought it very sad that such young people were sucked into all of this and wasted their lives but then I think about the victims and their families. The deaths must have been horrifying and terrifying and if it had been a member of my family I would still be worrying about how much they must have suffered. Family members of the victims fight against parole and I don't blame them.

Charles Manson doesn't expect to get out of prison ever. Amongst other things Charles Watson has managed to get married, divorced and have four children whilst in prison. No doubt Leslie Van Houten would be a perfect citizen if she was released. Susan Atkins was said to have had only six months to live last year. Her medical care costs a lot of money and I suppose that one advantage of releasing her now would presumably be that her family would have to fund this?

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM

I can hardly think of a more satisfying outcome to this horrible episode of history than to patiently show that we are more humane than the criminals and to persuade them that what they did was wrong. Society has proven itself to be stronger and better than these women were forty years ago. To extract further retribution from them - even for as beastly a crime as this one - is to sacrifice the higher moral ground. Forty years of imprisonment is a more terrible revenge than even the most grisly execution. Forty years ago these women showed no mercy. They have changed. If we fail to show mercy now, I am afraid it means that we have changed too.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Alice
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:56 PM

Squeaky Fromme is being released. From what I've read in the news report, she seems to still follow and defend Manson.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:05 PM

The worst punishment Manson could ever receive would be to get no more publicity....

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:21 PM

Agreed Amergin.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM

Actually, meself, it is the flatness of the keyboard that I find uncomfortable, rather than actually having it in my lap...it isn't. Also some keys are placed slightly differently, and there is no numbers pad separate from the alpha keyboard. But I do thank you for the tip, and I will get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Janie
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 08:18 PM

Squeaky Fromme has been in prison for her assault on President Ford. She was not charged with or directly involved with the slayings.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 09:03 PM

Well, yeah.... The women weren't given life without parole so that means that they are being victimized by the system... Both have been model prisoners... I mean, if you have a system that allows for folks to be repentant and to be rahabilitated and you just ignore the system in some cases, regardless of the prisoners actions, then why have the system at all... I don't like the politics that is being played here...

Like I said, if they wanted these women to die in prison they should have sentenced them accordingly... They didn't... That means that given good behavior and all the stuff that prisoners are supposed to do to get paroled then these two women, inparticular, are not being treated fairly... It somehow smacks of Third World dictatorships where the rules change daily... We are either a country of law or we aren't... If we are then these two women would have made parole, based on their behavior in prison, a long time ago...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 09:09 PM

"is to sacrifice the higher moral ground"

alanabit

I'm going to get back to you on that statement. I've been golfing and wish to leave my frustrations and anger(at myself)on the course! I believe, that you believe, in what you've said. I'll leave it at that for now!

good night, and God bless all!

R.W.R.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Alice
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 09:26 PM

Janie, I didn't say Squeaky was in prison for the murders!!!

But, she is a Manson follower and was motivated by her ideas about Manson to pull a gun out on President Ford.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:54 AM

Fair enough 3 refs. I realise that people feel passionately (and differently) to me on this one. There is no reason why we can not discuss it and explain our viewpoints. I do not expect you to change your mind but I will try and see it your way too.
Better luck with the golf next time!

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 09:02 AM

"To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you." For some, that might be true!

This incident is certainly unique. I'm sure that more horrific crimes have been committed, but very few have recieved the publicity that this one has. I think it would be easy for some to forgive them, and say "your debt to society has been payed". I agree that the world would be a better place if there was a bit more compassion shown to those who could benefit from it. I don't think it's up to me to forgive anyone for something they did to someone else. I'm not from the States, so I can't say "as a member of society, to which this debt is owed, I feel you've payed enough!". Looking from the outside in, my view is a little less panoramic, and I'm looking at the crime and not those who committed it. If the girls were a little less attractive and not quite so well spoken, would those who hope for their release still feel the same way? I believe that people can do things in life for which there is no forgivness! No second chance. No opportunity to right the wrong! That's Gods job not mine!

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:18 AM

"I don't think it's up to me to forgive anyone for something they did to someone else."

"I suspect that neither of these women would spit on a sidewalk, if they were ever released, but the debt they owe will only be paid in full when they remove their bodies from whatever institution they're in!"

These are both very fair and reasonable comments and they both realistically highlight the difficulty of of administering justice with mercy. It is especially difficult to show compassion to those, who in turn showed no mercy to their victims. Punishment had to be exemplary and to some extent retributive. What we are discussing is the point at which we no longer wish to extract retribution. I think we have reached it. Many others - perhaps most others - disagree.
I do not think that society's job is to extend forgiveness to the perpetrators. On that score I agree with 3 refs completely. Only the those directly affected are in any position to do that. However, the process of deciding which punishment should be meted out by society is necessarily taken out of the victim's hands. Anything less would mean a descent into Old Testament style barbarity. The fact is that there is no tariff, which a decent human being could use, which would exactly atone for what these women did. We can not tie people up and then stab them. Nobody is arguing for that. Inded you are not, 3 refs. The difference between justice and revenge is that justice tries to set a point at which it can say the punishment is complete. If somebody hurt (or God forbid) killed a member of my family, I would be capable of dismbowelling the assailant. That fact alone (rightly) would disqualify me from playing any part in the judicial proceedings except perhaps as a witness.

As I wrote in an earlier post, I believe that a terrible retribution has already been extracted. The release of these women, who have now lost their chance of a family life, of a career and forty years of freedom, might even further drive home to them what they threw away when they made their shocking decision back in 1969.

No disrespect 3 refs. I do not expect to change your mind. Just trying to explain the way I feel about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:35 AM

alanabit
It's individuals, such as yourself, that keep me from believing that what I think is the "be all, end all".
It's been 40 years. What if it was 39, or 27, or 10 years ago. As I said in my origional post, "When is enough, enough?". Perhaps that was a bit rhetorical. Sometimes forever isn't enough. I believe that people can commit crimes where the price you pay is with your life. If by chance, that sentence is commuted to life in jail, then life means life. I have no compassion for any one of the individuals and I don't care what they've accomplished while incarcerated, or how sorry they are. I'm sorry they've lost their youth and all joys a meaningful and long life could offer. Forgiveness may come, but not from me!

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:13 PM

What was/were the original actual sentences of these two girls? We're told it's not life without parole, but what was it?

Parole is not, at least in most states, a matter of right; it's a judgment to be made by those properly appointed to do that, based on standards adopted by the particular state.

I don't know what California sets as the standards by which the parole commission makes their judgment.

Although California's standards may provide for the possibility of some reduction, either for good behavior or judgment of not being a present threat, my present personal thought is that they should serve the original sentence(s) in full. I don't consider this revenge, nor particularly retributive. The original sentence(s) was/were imposed as being what justice warranted, and should apply, unmodified by second and third thoughts forty years later.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM

Didn't read the whole thread....

John ots coast... it's never too late.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:37 PM

In February 1972, the death sentences of all five parties were automatically reduced to life in prison by California v. Anderson, in which the Supreme Court of California abolished the death penalty in that state.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:47 PM

"Only bad timing in the legal system has allowed them to live." Moi

Thank you for the particulars, 3refs...that is what I had in mind.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Gnu, what isn't too late...injecting the Mansons, or my getting used to a laptop? I think the former is too late, but not the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

Well, the only reason to allow that kinda scum to draw another breath is so the they can be studied. After all this time, they still could be used as an educational aid for young shrinks.

As for those who advocate capitol mercy, I tend to agree, but sometimes I just have this feeling that tends toward "fuck em".

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 01:01 PM

3 refs
That is fair enough. Of course it was a rhetorical question. That does not make it any the less worthwhile trying to answer it.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 01:05 PM

I believe Atkins was first given a death sentence which was changed to life in prison when the Supreme Court invalidated the death penalty.

To me, this whole case points at the incoherence of our approach to punishment versus rehabilitation. Which one? Some combination of the two? Justice or mercy?

If it is rehabilitation, it appears that Susan Atkins qualifies for release. If punishment, she should die alone and forgotten behind bars.

Justice dictates that she should receive unrelenting punishment. Mercy recognizes that but goes further.

I find it interesting that Bugliosi favors her release.

"Officials with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation said Thursday they have scheduled a Sept. 2 parole hearing for Atkins in Los Angeles.

"Atkins has served 38 years in prison, longer than any other female prisoner, officials said. Before last year's attempt, she was most recently considered for, and denied, parole in 2000.

"In early 2008 Atkins was diagnosed with brain cancer. With one leg amputated and the other paralyzed, Atkins has only six months to live, doctors say. Atkins petitioned for so-called compassionate release, igniting a debate about when mercy is appropriate.

"Those backing her release argued unsuccessfully that the cost of keeping Atkins in prison, which by now could be well over a million dollars, should have favored her release because it would save the state substantial amounts of money.

"Others, including former Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, said it was a question of mercy and told The Times it was wrong to say "just because Susan Atkins showed no mercy to her victims, we therefore are duty-bound to follow her inhumanity and show no mercy to her."

Here

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: GUEST,M.K. Switzer
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 01:15 PM

Cult power can exercise complete control over an individual's will and thoughts and being. I don't understand it, but we do have to take mind control into account when we judge others. It is very clear Manson was the leader, that he orchestrated almost every move of his followers, and that they were acting under his control.
    Are Manson's followers responsible for the horrific acts they committed even though they were under his authority? Absolutely yes. How else could there be any justice at all?
    However, is there a point in an individual's psyche when that individual is rehabilited? Isn't that the reason we have penal institutions? Are prisons for punishing or reforming?
    And, what of the victims and the victims' families and friends and loved ones? How should they be compensated? Our society runs on money, perhaps an alternate society of prisoners doing jobs that make a usable product can generate money for the victims somehow. Prison work with educated prisoners might be able to generate money for the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 03:09 PM

The original sentence of death, if carried out, would obviate any end of life deductions. They have already been extended (although for other reasons) a reduction in the intended (and in my opinion merited) sentence.

That reduced sentence (life) should not now be further reduced, say I.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:27 AM

Use google images and google

nick griffin, charles manson



Coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: GUEST,Dwbaldegle
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 04:35 AM

everone should be released except for charles manson. they have a clean prison record after 40 years turn them loose. we turn people out of prison all the time for murder. why should the be held. just because it was a high profile case.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:25 AM

There is some truth in your belief that part of the reason these people are still in prison is because it was a hígh profile case. However, there is also no doubt that it was also a particularly beastly crime. I can well understand why some - if not most - other people favour keeping them in prison. Having said that, like Dwbaldegle, I would like to see them released, for the reasons, which I have already given. I would also favour the release of Mark David Chapman, who committed a terrible crime too, but who has suffered many years of retribution and is probably no longer a danger.

Subject: RE: BS: 40 years of Charles Manson
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 10:23 AM

This was kind of interesting!

http://www.prisonersofage.com/PrisonersOfAge.html