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Subject: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Ballyholme Date: 07 Aug 09 - 11:44 PM There was an amazing discussion on Irish radio this week about fiddler Frankie Gavin's decision to go on the road with a band called "Frankie Gavin & De Dannan". It appears that two former De Dannan members (Alex Finn and Johnny McDonough) are taking exception to Frankie's use of the band name when none of the new members were in previous incarnations of the group. Furthermore, Alex Finn apparently has legal rights to the De Dannan name. To add further insult, accordian player Tony McMahon described Alex Finn as a "second rate accompanist". You can hear the program at http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/1210659.html |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: michaelr Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:06 PM It's Alec Finn, isn't it? Anyway, if he owns the name, he should sue the little shit. Gavin should call his band "Frankie goes to lick Bush's arse". Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:58 PM Frankie was conspicuous by his absence in this discussion. I don't get why he even wants to put out an advertisement that is patently false - it's bound to make a certain portion of his audience feel let down. He has a big enough name & talent to draw crowds* in his own right, and could easily call his current backing musicians The Frankie Gavin Band, or something. This way, a lot of people are going to come expecting something they don't get, and will go away disappointed, however good the music is. If he thinks "De Danann" automatically means himself plus whoever he chooses to play with, he might do well to think again. That band existed in a particular time and place, and the present one (how old were they when the real DD was gigging?) is simply a different outfit, not the original. And MacMahon is wrong about FG being the only musical innovator. Finn, MacDonagh, and Piggott had a special sound, and when Charlie left the band that sound changed. It would have been the same had the departing member been Alec or Johnny. De Danann were famous for their stunning arrangements, and for the way each instrument locked in with the others, making a sound greater than the sum of its parts. No one musician even could be responsible for all that on his own. Clicky: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/1210659.html Scroll down to the bottom right of the page and click on Wednesday's programme (LiveLine, a radio phone-in). The fun starts at 20:07 when Tony MacMahon weighs in, but the whole show is worth listening to. Ringo was eventually driven to answer one of his statements with a single-word epithet describing what bulls do after eating a large meal. Quite. --- * Near-fatal typo: I initially missed out the D in "crowds": Draw crows in his own right?? |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 08 Aug 09 - 05:15 PM Woooops, ambiguous sentence alert: > ...when Charlie left the band that sound changed. It would have been the same had the departing member been Alec or Johnny. Meaning the situation would have been the same - i.e. that the music altered. The way I've written it above could be taken to imply that the band's sound would have stayed the same, which is the polar opposite of what I meant. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 09 Aug 09 - 10:03 AM Tony McMahon is a cranky oul divil at the best of times. 'Twas amusing to hear him come to the defence of Frankie Gavin, who some people refer to as Cranky Gavin. At one stage in the radio altercation Tony refered to the bouzuki as being an instrument from 'abroad'. "So is the accordian" was Alec's instant rejoinder. The best of live radio - great craic. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,ploppo Date: 09 Aug 09 - 11:44 AM c'mon guys, we all know God thinks he's Frankie Gavin.... |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Ross Campbell Date: 10 Aug 09 - 11:03 AM The "Long Note" was one of my favourite programs through the seventies. I never realised how much it must have stuck in Tony McMahon's craw to have to present all these non-musicians week in, week out. Perhaps he was better at hiding it back then. Bit rich for an accordion-player to be calling names at percussionists and pluckers. He's obviously lost none of his old nerve. As for the De Dannan name - it seems a shame for Frankie Gavin to feel it necessary to use it in this way. Promising what can't be delivered always leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Pentangle seemed to have resolved this sort of problem much more amicably, with Jacqui Mc Shee's Pentangle, Bert Jansch's Pentangle indicating in each case that you should expect to see only the individual named from the original line-up, with accompanying musicians to fill out the sound. When they actually had a reunion gig, that was also made perfectly clear. Ross |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 09 - 11:21 AM I dont know why anyone bothered to ask Tony Mcmahon his opinion. what relevance does it have. why not ask Paddy Maloney,or Sean Cannon,or Barney Mckenna,or Matt ,or Crannitch,or Noel Hill. Alec Finn,must have been playing with De Danaan for over thirty years. I think Frankie Gavin is in a weak position,. none of this bickering does the music any good,but perhaps they are more interested in their own Egos and making money than enjoying music. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Ballyholme Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:50 PM There were a few follow-up calls to RTE (Irish radio) the following day including calls from John Faulkner and former De Dannan singer Eleanor Shanley. Faulkner made the point that McMahon's remarks were thinly veiled xenophic in nature when he made much of the fact that Finn was born in England and fact which seemed to disqualify him (in McMahon's eyes) from involvement in Irish music. Andy Irvine and Kevin Bourke look out! McMahon's checking birth certificates now. Eleanor Shanley also made the point that Finn - far from being merely a second rate accompanist - was the man who worked out the arrangements for most of De Dannan's songs. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM if Finn was only a second rate accompanist,how come he played in the group for so many years. It is of no importance where someone was born,what is important is there talent as a musician. Mcmahon comments are just a load of xenophobic clap trap,it is about time that the minority of irish people who seem obssessed,with whether a person is from Tipperary or Timbuctoo or Tooting broadened their horizons,and started judging on merit,not on birthplace. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: MartinRyan Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:31 PM Some background Regards |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:08 AM ego and self righteousness are a terrible curse[end of quote]. so are meddlers like McMahon. What this is about is money,which of course is what the World Fleadh is about. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,turlock carolan Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:11 AM Captain, the reason Mackmahon is a meddler is due to ego and self rightousness which the blog on ballylara.wordpress.com implied...they're all in it together and you're right, it's all about money with the de danann croud which again is due to ego and self rightousness. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Stu Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:26 AM http://ballylara.wordpress.com/ |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM They are wrangling over a name that causes widespread confusion and ill-feeling, to the point where the words "De Danann" are becoming meaningless. (The original spelling has now been modified, I notice, to "De Dannan".) Which band is it describing, the one that forged the name (and it was a team effort, not the sole creation of one man) or the newcomers now making use of it? It took a lot of years of gigging and recording to build up, and I don't think it's fair to piggyback on the hard work of others. The name "Frankie Gavin" is also well-established and respected, has plenty of drawing power in its own right, and is much less ambiguous. Why on earth can't Frankie Gavin just call himself Frankie Gavin? Give the new group its own identity, or else name it after himself? It will still be just as commercially viable and a whole lot more honest. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: MartinRyan Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:42 AM "Frankie and the dannans"? Regards |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:57 AM Spelled backwards it's "Nannad"... hmmmm, sort of like Clannad... |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Aug 09 - 09:42 AM I'm very unclear what Frankie Gavin's trying to achieve here. Will the new band be playing old De Danann numbers? If so, they're basically a tribute band - do people really want to go and see that? If they're going to be doing something different, then why call themselves De Danann, unless it's deliberately intended to mislead the punters? As Bonnie says, FG is a big enough name in Irish music not to need to do this. It smacks of a lack of confidence in himself. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes Date: 11 Aug 09 - 09:50 AM It's sad to see comments in the earlier post about Alec Finn being English and living in a castle. Appreciating another culture's music enough to want be involved in it is surely commendable. And as for the castle - when he sang at the early Folk Club at The Wellington Inn in Rotherham in the 1960's, he was living in a flat above a Dry Cleaner's shop. If he's got "a castle" now (and I have no idea what sort of house he lives in), it's through his own work. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM It's hardly relevant but Finn bought Oranmore castle for next to nothing. He's not the only traditional musician to live in a castle by the way, Sean Ryan is known for living in the most haunted house in Ireland, piper Pat Broderick ran a B&B in Creggcastle house and I know at least two more castle owning (though not permanently resident) musicians. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Lighter Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:16 PM King Darius had a ship built when he was in his twenties, but over the years the planks began to wear out one or two at a time. Fifty years later the ship looked great but every single plank had been replaced. Darius was still king. Was it still "King Darius' ship"? Depends on what you mean by "King Darius' ship." |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:38 PM It also depends on what you mean by "King". |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: irishenglish Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:32 PM This is just sad...you hate to see stuff like this with any band, arguments about bouzouki's and where someone chooses to live now. When I think of De Dannan I think of several names, but I have to say, the one that always comes to mind first is Finn...maybe it was the hair,nevertheless, he is far from a hack. About 3 years ago Gavin was involved with that album "Tunes" with Sharon Shannon, Michael McGoldrick, and John Murray-maybe he should have called that De Dannan too! At its core, for a band's name to carry on, theres got to be some key members (plural) involved anyway, not just one person, in my opinion. There was a brief time in the 70's when the only members of Fairport were Peggy and Swarb, neither of whom were original members, but obviously, two of its most important members. And no one, not Thompson, or Hutchings, or Sandy Denny tried to stop them from using the name. So the way I see it, if one of the key members (and not just someone involved with only one album), seeks to prevent Gavin from using that name, then Gavin should not be allowed. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: greg stephens Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM Anyone recall the Peter Sellers Irish band altercation record? Rather reminiscent. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,StephanieK Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:44 AM Frankie has every right to use the name as he never left De Dannan...Alec did.So why should that stop one of the best trad bands from continuing. This band is as good as any past line up....Plain and simple! |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:47 AM IYO |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM Ofcourse there are two line-ups touring the country and recording at the minute. Frankie and his crowd and Alec Finn, 'Ringo' McDonagh, Mick Conneely, Eleanor Shanly, Derek Hickey and Brian McGrath. So what's the best line up there? |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM "Anyone recall the Peter Sellers Irish band altercation record? Rather reminiscent" Ahhhgh Jeysus, oil never get t' evan wiout me 'at! |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Seán Báite - lost his cookie again Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM Some kind soul has put the Sellers' track up on YouTube: A Drop of the Hard Stuff - Sellers & Co. The Seán in question is very probably me - given his propensity for bum notes and alcohol. Sometimes, when I see stuff going on back in Ireland, I realise that Swift didn't have to invent Lilliput - he merely wrote down what he observed :-< |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: greg stephens Date: 14 Aug 10 - 11:06 AM It was "me harp", not "me'at", in the Patrick O'Shaunessy's Ceilidh Band altercation. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM In the USA de Dannan is de yogurt. Art |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:57 AM Alec Finn is "English" only by virtue of having been raised in Yorkshire. His parents were Irish, and Finn is an Irish name in case nobody noticed. When he moved back to Ireland in the late '60's he was simply coming home. Had I heeded his invitation to stay and live in Ireland when he was my host in the early 1970's my life would have been infinitely better that it subsequently was in America, but hindsight is 20/20. As to calling him a "second rate accompanist" - this is total nonsense. Alec is recognized as one of the most brilliant and sensitive accompanists in traditional Irish music by a whole host of musicians and afficianados worldwide. If he weren't do you think that as brilliant a fiddler as Frankie Gavin would have played and appeared with him as accompanist for so many years? Whatever this nonsense about "Frankie Gavin and DeDanaan" it strikes me as very unfortunate. Sounds like Gavin's gotten way too full of himself. I was always a major fan of DeDanaan. But I would never go see a band called "Frankie Gavin and DeDanaan". And I am stll and always will be a major fan of Alec Finn, who was kind and hospitable towards me when I was a young American kid hitchiking the backroads of Ireland in 1970. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Dave Hanson Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:38 AM Actually the family name is Phinn, Alecs brother Gervase is a quite well known author here in Yorkshire, This no way detracts from his very fine musicianship and his massive contribution to De Dannan. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Les in Chorlton Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:49 AM Exlnt Dave & Greg, sad about the rest of the story L in C# |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Corby Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM Thanks for the correction on Alec Finn's last name Dave. I was the one who posted yesterday as 'guest'. Now I'm a member so my name appears. I did google Gervase Finn - the family likeness is unmistakeable. He doesn't seem to mention Alec on his website. When I met Alec Finn he was just known as Alec Finn and I had heard from someone in Ireland that his parents were Irish. In any case, I met him because I was picked up by some former members of Sweeney's Men when I was hitchhiking one sunday afternoon west of Galway town. In those days I had never heard of Sweeney's Men and didn't realize I was being picked up by legendary musicians. Among them was Joe Dolan, an incredible traditional ballad singer. I heard him sing "The Granemore Hare", accompanying himself on guitar, in a small Co, Galway pub in the company of Eamon and Barbara O'Doherty, Alec Finn and his wolfhound Jack, and my friend Jon. Dolan's singing of this song made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end and sent chills down my spine. He was that powerful. Several years later I heard the Steeley Span version and loved it, but Joe's was the best. - Ando so I travelled that fateful day, in Eamon's black Jaguar, to Alec Finn's cottage in Spiddal. They were all on their way to a Fleadh Ceol in Headford, East Galway, and brought us along. My new friends subsequently won a battle of the bands against some locals. Later that night we narrowly escaped in the Jaguar as a group of locals surrounded the car and thew stones at us. I remember Alec bending his tall frame down in the front seat and exclaiming "Jesus!". The fact that musicians of the calibre of Joe Dolan and Sweeney's Men were seeking out Alec to play music with says all there is to say about his musician ship. Sorry for the long post! |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:23 PM De Dannan just played NY last night. I didn't get to see them, which is a shame, but it was advertised as including Frankie Gavin, Alec Finn and 'Ringo' McDonagh. Hopefully this means they have patched up their differences and are making music together again. Their sound was unique and it would be nice if people who could make such great music together were not fighting. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM It seems unlikely. Gavin and his new companions were on the tellie only this month, promoting gigs. I am sorry to say it was a sad affair altogether. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Graham_Pirt Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM Just to confirm. As Gervase Phinn was a colleague of mine and I still meet up with him, he would confirm Alec is his brother and changed the spelling of his name. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: The Sandman Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM I prefer not to prejudge Frankie Gavins new band,they are bound to get tighter, who else is in the band? most bands gel a bit more as they get used to playing together. Peter Laban is a much better player than Frankie Gavin. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Simon H Date: 05 Aug 11 - 02:50 AM I've just seen "Frankie Gavin and De Dannan" at the 2011 Cambridge Folk Festival and I'd say they are at least as good as the De Dannan I saw in Colchester in 1983 and better than some of the subsequent incarnations. All the 'new' members are stunning. To me a band is about the music it plays. If I'd seen them blind, I'd have sworn they were the "real" De Danann. I'm a lifelong fan of the music, not the individual members. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM We were at that Colchester gig too! (Mary Black sang Anachie Gordon and the place was packed IIRC). But that line-up was a little in-between - they had a stand-in banjo player who doesn't seem to have stayed with them for very long. Charlie Piggott had suffered that awful accident which put paid to his fretboard playing (though I heard him on box years later at a session in west Cork and he sounded fine). Anyway, I still mourn that never-to-be-replaced dynamic of the two metal-string players (Finn & Piggott) who worked so beautifully in tandem. Not to mention some very, very strong singers over the years. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: scouse Date: 06 Aug 11 - 08:59 AM I going to Tonder in a few weeks Alex Finn's De Dannan is playing.. It'll be interestin' to close me eyes and listen.Dear Elenore is singing with them.. Now that's a real treat. As Aye, Phil |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM Glad Eleanor Shanley is back with them. From the Tonder home page pic I see they also have Johnny Ringo - who's the fiddler? Looks familiar but can't find a name anywhere, and their website's not active. Google's not a lot of help either. Probably be a good, gig, though. Names of the rest of the lineup, anyone? Pic on this page: Tonder Festival home page |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:27 AM Mick Conneely is playing fiddle. Brian McGrath for banjo and piano. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,james cool Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM 15Dec Whats the latest on the dispute?Saw Frankie's band the other night and was pleasantly suprised-the singer's fantastic and Frankie was in good but fairly subdued form but its still not De Dannan to me without that bouzouki sound. The other band's website seems to be down-has Alec given up the fight? |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM still billed as Frankie Gavin and Dé Danaan and the result is that we often see headlines "Dé Danaan playing ...." As someone who knows about the dispute, it really annoys me to see or hear these announcements. Why couldn't Gavin just call the band Frankie Gavin and his Band or something else, as former members of Dé Danann objected to his using the old name to describe the new band. I have not gone to hear Gavin's band. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: scouse Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:55 AM Saw Alex and Eleanor at Tonder this year.. It was like listening to the old De Dannan,They where superb. As Aye, Phil. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:52 AM Delighted (and not one bit surprised) to hear it. Did they have any other musicians playing with them, or were they working as a duo? Eleanor occasionally comes to Ballymaloe (very near me) which is always a treat. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: scouse Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:10 AM Mick Connolly on fiddle. Brian McGrath on banjo and piano plus Ringo on Bohran and Alex's Son singing with Eleanor. As Aye, Phil. |
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Subject: RE: De Dannan Name Dispute From: YorkshireYankee Date: 17 Dec 11 - 01:54 PM Just thought I'd update the link MartinRyan provided (above), as it now links to the most recent post in that blog -- rather than to a post concerned with De Danann/Dannan -- and takes some finding: http://ballylara.wordpress.com/2009/08/ Once on the page, you need the scroll down about halfway to reach the 6 Aug 2009 post, titled "De Danann". |
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