Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:00 AM

"I wish FaF all the best, but I fear that it will not, on it's own, put a stop to the BNP.": J MacKenzie

Of course it won't ON ITS OWN, John, Neither will anything else ON ITS OWN. But can't you see it as a valuable part of a cumulative process? A perhaps minor but nevertheless important cog in a mighty machine which, like Woody Guthrie's guitar, kills fascists? The fact that something isn't going to achieve its purpose on its own seems to me a poor reason for belittling and sneering at it {and don't pretend now you never did either: your tone thruout this thread has been scornful & negative and it's much too late now to try and save face by saying that it hasn't}; & that's the 'reality' that you denounce this thread for not welcoming here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:14 AM

Mr Red and Mr. Harris, I am at a loss: "It pains me to agree with Steve Harris but you have to make the message appealing."

If attempting to defend the image and integrity of folk musicians whose work is being (mis)used by fascists isn't already important and appealing (Mr. Red); if Steve Knightly at the FAF launch starting the event with his song 'Roots' because it has been appropriated by the BNP doesn't make the issue clear enough (Mr. Harris); if the attempt by fascists to fund folk events under a pseudonym to recruit members doesn't already scare you ... then I really don't know what anyone can say to you to help you become aware.   

Mr. Red, think on your own quote: "For evil to triumph, good men have to stand by and do nothing."   

It saddens me that this thread has (once again on Mudcat) been an occasion for posters to do the equivalent of a child sticking a tongue out and shouting 'yah boo sucks'. This issue (like many others) is bound to raise passion, but sarcasm and insults do nothing to promote understanding: only engaging openly with others can do that.

Unfortunately, there are some who would rather play games rather than engage in rational discussion. The hardcore of the BNP and their ilk are not able to engage in rational argument. That is part of the condition and definition of being prejudiced.

Being rational and factual may only win over a few who are tempted on the margins of the BNP. But those few are important. Unfortunately, one will always find it difficult to engage rationally with an irrational/fearful/passionate person. But we have to try.

If all we do is sling mud, shout 'yah boo sucks', and get some kind of thrill from insulting others, making no attempt to bring understanding but feeding on negative emotions, then I wonder how our approach and behaviour is different to that of the BNP? And I wonder what we can ever hope to achieve by it?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Flashmeister
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling. It it a cause that will be supported widely within the folk scene as well as cause distemper among other members of it. we are all different in our views BUT bickering on here is not going to change or solve anything.
If people want to get behind the cause, brilliant, if not then then that is just the reality of things, you can't please everyone and there will always be dissent from those who think they know better or are closet fascists.
I for one am behind FAF and against the BNP to the point that i would very much like to start making moves to organise an event in the FAF week in Luton where I live (read the papers on the BNP/NF there and you shall see why!) so no, I'm not just sitting on my arse giving it lip service here.
Folk music has also long been a form of protest from the the Diggers to the miners to today; it's story-telling, history, humour, cautionary tales, solidarity, love, loss, times of bounty and famine all rolled up and sung out loud by anyone moved enough to do so, go to any open session and you'll get it all so lets stop moaning that 'I don't want my folk political'.
All those who say 'yay!' to support FAF just bloody well do it and don't waste time picking the bones of a pointless argument.

ps. a little LOL at Mr.Harris preaching to eliza c on how to play folk music to lots of people...the novice that she clearly is :-D

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:17 AM

I think FAF could do some valuable work, but it needs to focus on one area - the BNP and local traditions. It may be helpful to explain what FAF stands for and demonstrate how supporters can help make that stand. For instance:

Can I in the spirit of real friendliness suggest you read the thread where you will find all the information you need - including websites. Then type Folk Against Fascism into and take a look at the Facebook page. You don't need to be a member of Facebook to read that.

Then you can seek out local anti-fscist groups (most areas of the country are covered) and join that. You'll find they will be very helpful.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:04 AM

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling."

Bit like watching the bluddy histrionics over "Who stole the Cocoa Pops?!!" on Big Brother..

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM

PLEASE!!!!!! Anybody read P.G.Wodehouse? Sir Roderick Spode? The British Knee? Extremists have always existed in England, but thanks to our (somewhat descredited )electoral system they haven't a hope in hell of being elected.. Over to you Peace!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:36 PM

If the organisers of the Sidmouth event are entirely satisfied with the way the event went, and don't feel that there are any lessons to be learned, that's their prerogative. It seems a bit blinkered to me, there's always room for improvement, but so be it.

How even Ms Echo can turn a suggestion about how the structure of the event might be improved into a denial of the evils of fascism is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM

Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM

What the fuck are you talking about?

I wasn't at the launch and have not commented on its structure. The organisers and artists have stated clearly that i achieved what they set out to do and I support that entirely. Nitpicking from the sidelines and mouthing know-all criticisms of what "should" have occurred (according to a few carping fencesitters) is unhelpful and insulting. If, on the other hand, you think there are other ways of opposing fascism, you are of course right. No-one's stopping you from organising your own speechifying public meetings or whatever. Anything Against Fascism goes as long as it works, deters even more waverers from voting for the BNP, rescues music from misappropriation . . . oh, and sounds good.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM

"Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!!"
- GUEST,John from Kemsing

hmmmm now THIS sounds just like something the BNP and their associates would advocate, and I feel that the posting from Kemsing is simply another attempt to detract from the thread at hand. Nice try Kemsing!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM

Ms Echo, I was responding to your post of 12 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM in which you said, "It's not "constructive criticism" to seek to modify such a basic fact [the evils of fascism] under the guise of claiming that the FAF launch "should have got to the point quicker"" which I took to be in answer to my own post of 12 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM.

Let me be clear - the event was clearly a great success, and congratulations to the organisers. However at least one person left early because the message wasn't put across sooner. That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently. In what way is it unhelpful, let alone insulting, to point that out?

It's usual these days at many types of event to invite feedback from the audience to help the organisers to refine their message - indeed, filling in a feedback form has become a slightly tiresome ritual at the end of every conference or training session. Whether the feedback advice is followed is another matter. The organisers of FAF may feel that, overall, the balance of the event was right and attracted more interest than it lost - that's a judgement for them to make. But to jump on someone merely for offering feedback, which has been the overwhelming response, and to equate their suggestions with denial of the evils of fascism seems to me, to use one of your favourite words, "bonkers".

Here's another suggestion, which I hope won't appear too unhelpful or insulting: I was surprised to see Ruth Archer's admission that the BBC hadn't been sent a media release and had picked up on the event from Facebook. With the greatest respect, that seems like a bit of an oversight which the organisers might think about remedying for the next event.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jane Bird
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:47 PM

Must people be so bad tempered? I thought us anti-fascists were opposed people being nasty to each other?

I'm quite up for a civilised and well tempered debate, though.

Cheers,
Jane

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:23 PM

I'm not just "bad tempered", I'm incandescent that H Jones (who wasn't at the FAF launch) continues to bleat that "it didn't get to the point quickly enough", alongside inexplicable, quite embarrassing, backing for that galumphing hoofer S Harris who walked out after a few minutes because they weren't doing the Notty Swing.

Both these know-alls would have done it "differently". We know that because they just can't stop saying so, sneeringly. Sounds a bit like the IMG telling the SWP that they got one word wrong in their sit-in manifesto. But it's far worse than that. It's personal abuse towards an experienced festival director and to one of our foremost and best-loved artists. Why, I wonder? Cos they're "girls"?

Perhaps you should have had the idea of setting up such an organisation first, and actually done it. I wonder if you'd have attracted 4,000+ recruits in the space of four weeks?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:41 PM

The whole of his last post
- Howard Jones

you know how the saying goes, those that can do (once more, well done Ruth Archer and Company!), those that can't either teach or criticise. One perhaps two people left, the rest stayed, that says it all for me, restructuring just because ONE person's needs weren't met..hey, the world doesn't revolve around YOU, so get over it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM

Not having been at Sidmouth, I presume that this was a symbolic launch - a cutting of the ribbon. Most of those who have signed up had already done so; no doubt even more will do so in the future. The launch appears to have successfully achieved its aim in generating interest in the folk community and in the media and well done to all involved. Now the real work begins - to promote FAF in the widest arena possible. That is something all those who support this movement have to do. Let's hope that those who choose not to actively give their support will not hamper the rest of us in this.

Let's go for it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM

I'm not demanding that any future events should be restructured. What I'm saying is that any feedback, positive or negative, should be welcomed. Most organisations do, and some pay large sums of money to gather it.

I'm not criticising the organisers of the Sidmouth event (and incidentally their gender is irrelevant to me). My criticism is aimed at those who seem to think that any feedback which they perceive as negative is an attack on the whole event, on FAF as a movement, and is supporting the BNP.

Let's recap: Steve Harris said the event didn't work for him, and so he left. Perhaps he had different expectations from the event than the organisers. When asked to, he set out succinctly what might have been done to make it work for him - points which any trainer in selling or presentation would recognise.   For that, he has been jumped on in hobnail boots. In my opinion, that is unfair on Steve (who by the way I've never met, so far as I am aware) and is not helpful to FAF because it may discourage people from offering honest feedback.

The important thing is that the organisers now know that they failed to reach at least a section of the audience and more importantly why. That should be useful information. It's up to them to judge whether that is a significant section of the audience who should be targeted next time, or whether Steve really is a minority of one. They may feel that Steve has a valid point, or they may decide that to change the order of the event would lose more people than it would gain. That's entirely up to them. The point is, whatever they decide will be a better-informed decision as a result of his feedback.

Let me say again: all feedback, both positive and negative, is good. It tells you how you are doing, and where there may be room for improvement (and there's always room for that). Eliza C obviously understood that when she asked Steve to explain what would have made it work for him. If Ruth or any of the other organisers feel that their post-event euphoria was deflated by anything I've said, then I apologise. I'm sure that by now they've also had a debrief, decided what went well and what could have gone better, and are taking on board all the feedback they've had from whatever source.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM

It would seem to me that the F A F Logo on ANY artists Albums would be a pretty good way of stopping B N P Mis selling said Albums as any
kind of support for B N P . Or is that too simplistic ?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM

"Let's recap"
- Howard Jones

again? We've already been through this god knows how many times, my position is not going to change anytime soon, as I stated, the world doesn't revolve around a couple of people, never has, never will do.

and it"s goodnight from her.

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:13 PM

That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently.

Howard, are you seriously suggesting that Steve Harris's and in fact anyone else's opposition to fascism depends upon the way an event like the launch is structured?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo,
                      Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all!
                      For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

Hmmm... my last post is about to fall off the 50 post mark and Ricky still has not answered. I guess he must be busy at other things.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:50 PM

I wish some people would stick with one membership, not to mention country. Not my main point.

For Paco, specifically, but maybe others who want FaF people to just shut up and go away: why do you care what other people are doing? If you don't think it's going to matter at all, why do you seem so pissed off?

Personally, I think the only time the world would have no chance of improving is if people stop believing they can make their ideals into reality. People might not get 100% of everything they want, but they get some of it. If they don't even try, they might as well just drop dead now and save the ale for those involved.

Your old world is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand
For the times, they are a-changin'

You're either marching forward, trying to go backward, or you're a speed bump.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM

Folkiedave, if someone goes to a launch event of anything, whether it's a product or an idea, and is kept waiting for 20 minutes before it's explained to them, then you're not going to get their attention, especially if they're not especially interested in the entertainment you're providing in the meantime.

So the answer to your question is "yes". If Joan's speech had been early on in the event instead of 20 minutes into it, Steve would have heard it. How he would then have reacted, I can't say.

Steve's message was, don't assume too much knowledge on the part of your audience and get to the point. I'm struggling to understand why this got such a hostile response.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:18 PM

I have been pretty incandescent with Diane in the past, but may I express my total agreement with and support for everything the Borchester Echo has said on this tread?

Nice to see she is not insisting that the name of the group be changed to F**k against Fascism. (jocular tweak, honest)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:28 PM

Sorry, typing finger went awol
Out goes John MacKenzie after tellng us how much it AMUSES him "to see people realising TOO LATE, just how obnoxious they are", previously having told us that Folk people should't be involved in politics because folk is about music".
In come Paco Rabanne to tell us folk and a few old hippies count for nowt - both have obviously decided which side they are on.
Please end the post mortem on the launch,learn whatever lessons there were to be learned (if any) and get on with the job.
Thanks for your efforts,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:14 AM

This is crazy. Yes by all means join a political party, vote anti-BNP, campaign against them or whatever. But doing things in other directions doesn't negate the need to confront the BNP over their attempts to expropriate our traditional culture. And joining FAF certainly won't fragment or weaken the anti-fascist movement. On the contrary, it will strengthen it.

What's more, we have an obligation to confront the BNP over this particular issue. If the BNP have started showing an interest in British folk music, it is not because they like the sound of the stuff. It is because of their crackpot white supremacist ideology. IE., they believe that the British race is one of a number of European master races, all of which have become weakened and debilitated by immigration and by absorption of foreign cultural elements. They believe, just as the nazis believed, that folk music is a product of race, and that the type of music we make is a natural consequence of our racial/genetic makeup. Therefore, as part of the process of repurifying the master race, of completing the job that Hitler started in fact, they have to eliminate all 'non-Aryan' music, whether it be Negro, Asian or Islamic.

That is why FAF is important. It is not just that fascism is detestable. It is not just because the BNP is trying to muscle in on 'our' music. It is because no-one in their right mind would stand by and watch while a bunch of nazi thugs expropriates this fabulous heritage that we have helped to nurture and propagate and preserve, and uses it as a weapon against us and against all the other races which we share this earth with.



Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne - PM
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo,
                      Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all!
                      For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM

Lest we forget who we are talking about - here are a couple of selections from Martin Walker's history 'The National Front - the fore-runner to the BNP before they went 'respectable'.
Jim Carroll

The most enjoyable part of the camp was the opportunity to get away from the cosmopolitanism of the cities and to live in the manner of our forefolk amidst the beauties of our own Northland, England. None will forget the comradeship round the campfire, with songs of our race and nation upon our lip and tankards of English ale in our hands.

We are the front fighters of the BNP,
True to our soil and people we will be.
Red Front and Jewry will finally fall;
Our race and nation will smash them all.

Policy statements:
Send those coloured immigrants already here back to their homelands.
Impeach the Tory Cabinet and the 1945-50 Labour Cabinet for their complicity in the black invasion and hold a trial of all those journalists who have aided and abetted them.

At the age 18, the half-caste would be given free passage to the country of its choice or he or she would be allowed to remain in Britain, enjoying all rights and privileges, including marriage, except for the fact that he or she would be legally enforced to undertake sterilization, under correct medical supervision.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Old Vermin
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:12 AM

What was that about ageing hippies? Best sort, really. Especially considering the alternative,

When's the FAF website going to show the T-shirt?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:17 AM

Actually Vermin,dear chap - I think that should be tee-shirts in the plural. I have photos of two different types.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:35 AM

here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose.
Derek

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: dj bass
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM

I WAS at the FaF event. As I stated on another thread, it was a highlight of the week for me (and I was a Ham Evening ST holder so I saw some "headline" acts).

Before he sang the first song, Steve Knightley clearly stated what the issue was and his interest in taking part in the launch. Perhaps Mr Harris arrived late as well as left early. IMHO, the ratio of talk to performance was fine. I would not have wanted a long speech at the start, but then I arrived early and picked up the explanatory leaflet, badges and stickers.

I'd have liked Jim Moray to "claim" Sweet England for the good guys, which I think would have been entirely appropriate in the circumstances, but other than that I loved the content. As a general rule, I prefer to state what I am for, rather than what I am against, but I am wearing my FaF badge with pride.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM

"Lest we forget who we are talking about."
- Jim Carroll

speak for yourself, I don't forget for one nano-second who I'm dealing with.

"A few old hippies in FaF"
- Paco Rabanne

this from someone naming themselves for some fashionista *LOL* Honestly you coundn't possibly make this stuff up....

(Discover all about Paco Rabanne: perfumes (One Million, Black XS, XS, Ultraviolet, Paco Rabanne for men), accessories (watches and eyewear) and fashion *LOL*

Paco Rabanne

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:42 PM

Derek Schofield:- "here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose."

Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls, who are simply seeking to sew the seeds of confusion.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:00 PM

"Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls"
- Fred McCormick

Fred, there either that or people whose interest in everyday life extends only to what the next fashion trend will be, when the next "big" rock concert will be and where it'll be.

and I came across this quote from the American writer Dwight MacDonald,in his book On Movies, who was referring to the late film director Otto Preminger, but it works for certain contributors to this thread...here goes

" No one is more skilled at giving the appearance of dealing with large controversial themes in a bold way without making the tactical error of actually doing so."

Stand and Be Counted
Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM

Ollie, you've about nailed it. I just wish that serious contributors to what are now four Mudcat antifascist threads, would stop rising to the bait. Ignore the begrudgers and they'll go away.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: PaulF
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

Ms Beak, you are unbearably smug, and reminiscent of another lady we had posting here, some time ago. She seemed to spend a lot of time playing piano.
PaulF

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:32 PM

Well PaulF I play guitar and mandocello,(if that's important)

Smug? only to those who don't have the parts to speak their mind in open forum If there were morewho'd do this, we'd be alot further ahead in our fight against fascism.
I think I said a few posts ago, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the front porch, and stay out of the way of those of us who REALLY do want to do something constructive, unlike those folk who would rather bitch and whine and be completely unhelpful

Stand and Be Counted

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:40 PM

I tend to agree with some of the posters who suggest that the immoderate style of some postings here, will be a turn off to those not already converted. I've believed strongly in this cause since day one. But I too find the hostile manner of some postings, to be a real turn off to a cause I wholeheartedly support. Clear and non-offensive/non-personal points have been made by one or two posters making ever so moderate constructively critical comments, and I believe wrongly and highly emotively slated. That's as much as I have to say, as I'm not interested in bickering and bitching. I believe Joan et al are doing a fabulous job, and as soon as able, I'll be getting more practically involved. But, that's as much as I wish to add to this thread, and I feel no desire to participate any further to any threads on this subject. I believe (much as it galls me to agree with LH & Joe on the matter) they are in fact, too often detrimental to the cause they purport to support. My apologies if I offend.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 05:16 AM

To many of us fascism is an extremely emotive subject.
During my lifetime millions of men, women and children were exterminated for having the 'wrong' ethnic background, for joining trades unions, for not meeting up to the mental or physical requirements for 'the new order'...... or just for saying 'no'.
The two individuals recently elected in Britain belong to a political organisation which has at various times supported these actions, adapted them to fit a British scenario, or denied they ever happened. A number of people on this thread and elsewhere on this forum have lent their support to them, in some cases openly and in others by sneering at the efforts of the people who are attempting mount some sort of opposition.
Personally, I am not in the least surprised that discussion gets heated on occasions.
My apologies if I offend.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:13 AM

"For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt!"

While it is true that a small movement cannot win a war on its own, it can win individual battles that impact on the piblic conciousness. But when different movements make a stand against fascism, trade unions, other arts, social enterprises, then there starts to be a joined-up anti-fascist movement that sweeps the country and the far-right become more and more marginalised.


"JOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE!".

Again... stop making sweeping generalisations about those who are making a stand against the BNP. For information... I do belong to a political party - the Co-op Party. I do vote - Labour.

Anyway congratulations to getting FaF firmly established, and don't get disheartened by those who try to pour scorn on what has happened. The only do it because they know that they cannot preach their ideologies in public forum and debate without admitting what they really stand for so all they can do is "play the man instead of the ball".

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Jon Boden
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:31 PM

"JOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE!".

I entirely agree that the best way to oppose the BNP is to engage with and vote for the mainstream political parties. As I understand it the BNP vote hasn't really gone up much, it's just that people aren't voting tory/lib/lab. (Allowing fascists to get in to power is a pretty stupid way to punish liberal politicians for being a bit liberal with their expense allowances imo.)

The main function of FAF is to provide anyone in the folk scene with a simple mechanism to prevent the BNP implying a connection with them. The BNP are less likely to sell folk cds off their website if they have a FAF logo on the back, and are less likely to infiltrate a morris team if that team wear FAF badges on their kit etc etc. The more omnipresent FAF becomes, the harder it will be for the BNP to attach itself to the folk scene in general.

I, along with the other performers at the Sidmouth launch, have no intention of turning my performances into a political platform to denounce the BNP. To do so would be to let the BNP win on one level - affording them influence totally disproportionate to their actual stature.

I am, as it happens, a member of the Labour party but I'm very keen that FAF should not become a 'left wing' organisation. FAF is about preventing the BNP from making British/English folk culture an exclusively white concern, and as such should be of interest and of benefit to all folkies whatever their party political sympathies.

I should point out that I am by no means a spokesman for FAF, just an enthusiastic supporter.

Cheers, Jon

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:48 PM

If one thinks of the influence of Dylan's songs in the 60s, and the Irish republican songs for much of the last century, while one might argue about whether they were "folk" I am of the view that songs, as a political lever, punch well above their weight (to mix several metaphors).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:54 PM

Nice one Jon. Worried you are still in the Labour Party though!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:23 PM

that is what i have been saying all alone, we have to stand as one, tell the truth and attack the BNP in every way possible. bringing in new ideas and holding with old ideas that work.

however, if we attack everyone who voted BNP as diehard racists then we will never make some of them see sense.
if some of us are patient with those who can be got to see sense and some of us concentrate on those hardcore who cannot be talked to then we will win.
in fighting is distacting but, we also have to learn to lighten up abit when we feel like we are being disagreed with. we do not have to win arguements with each other. we should be able to see that some people just have a different way of tackling the problem.


logos on cds: would there be any way for the BNP to copy and remove the logos?

would it be possible to burn it on to the disc as well as on to the covers? i know this would be more expensive but we know all too well just how easy it is for those who know how, to mess with printed images.

take care all

and well done to all who went to codnor

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:25 PM

I have a bell going off in my head about trademark law, EU law, and repackaging, but at this time of night, I am not sure what it is telling me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:02 PM

The albums being sold by BNP's Excalibur trading arm are of material that was signed away to a perfectly innocent distribution/promotion company - at the time it must have been like a good deal. I'm not sure what happened next, but the same company (or the rights to the music) got taken over by the BNP who unfortunately can do what they like with it. As I understand it the original artists concerned have no legal power to influence how that material is sold or packaged, unless perhaps some serious (i.e. illegal) misrepresentation can be proved in any of the chain of business.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:16 PM

Hopefully the publishers haven't signed up to a sole distribution rights deal and have negotiated with other distributors, and also hopefully no retail outlets (worldwide) will but from excalibur so that there only customer will be BNP.

This can be picked up by music industry journals and maybe retailers who buy from excaliber can be named and shamed.

I don't know how expensive it would be to kitemark back-catalogues as FaF 'approved', but it would be a superb gesture for the folk music industry to set this as a standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 01:03 PM

"the same company (or the rights to the music) got taken over by the BNP who unfortunately can do what they like with it."

I don't think the BNP has taken over a company - I think the BNP are simply selling CDs which they've purchased from the secondary distributors.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

I'll try again !!

What is the ptoblem with ANY artist making a CD having the FaF logo on the label ? This MIGHT deter BNP from trying to sell the albums as 'supporting' BNP!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:36 PM

Leadfingers:
Well, if what Ruth A. says is true, not a problem at all with new albums, almost impossible with albums in the distribution pipeline, and possible but perhaps costly if you want a repressing done with new artwork (because the pressing, printing and packaging are done all in one automated operation)

Apart from that, a good idea...

Anahata