BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany

Subject: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:29 PM

Here's a link to an article I just read about Indian Re-creation camps in Germany:

http://www.utne.com/Spirituality/Germans-weekends-Native-Americans-Indian-Culture.aspx

Der Indianer: Why do 40,000 Germans spend their weekends dressed as Native Americans?
May-June 2009 by Noemi Lopinto, from Alberta Views

Here's an excerpt of that article:

[Native American John] Blackbird's fame springs from a remarkable cultural phenomenon: some 40,000 German "hobbyists" who spend their weekends trying to live exactly as Indians of the North American plains did over two centuries ago. They recreate tepee encampments, dress in animal skins and furs, and forgo modern tools, using handmade bone knives to cut and prepare food. They address each other by adopted Indian-sounding names such as White Wolf. Many feel an intense spiritual link to Native myths and spirituality, and talk about "feeling" Native on the inside.

Their fascination with Native culture is due in large part to Karl May, the best-selling German author of all time. In 1892, May published the first of many books about a fictional Apache warrior named Winnetou and his German blood brother, Old Shatterhand. The two men roamed the North American plains, using their nearly superhuman powers to fight off the land-hungry government and thuggish, violent pioneers. (Fans of the stories included Albert Einstein and Adolf Hitler.) In the 1960s the duo was immortalized in five popular films, and hobbyist groups began forming across Europe. There are now more than 400 clubs in Germany alone."


-snip-

After reading this article and its reader comments I'd like to know more about the Karl May books & movies that apparently are the impetus behind these Indian re-creation camps. But it seems to me that these groups may end up doing more harm than good.

What do you think?

Has anyone on Mudcat ever heard of these Indian re-creation camps? Are there any camps like this in other European countries and/or in the USA, Canada, or Australia? (nations where most Mudcatters live).

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

Apparently the purpuse of these Indian Re-Creation camps is recreational and it appears that their members aren't concerned about a strict recreation of Native American customs. See this additional excerpt from that article whose link I provided in my first post:

"Some Natives do take issue. When he first traveled to Germany, David Redbird Baker, an Ojibwe, thought adults playing cowboys and Indians were cute. But when the hobbyists began staging sacred ceremonies like ghost and sun dances and sweat lodges, Baker was offended.

"They take the social and religious ceremonies and change them beyond recognition," says Baker, who believes that hobbyists, in claiming the right to improvise on the most sacred rituals, have begun to develop a sense of ownership over Native culture. They've held dances where anyone in modern dress is barred from attending—even visiting Natives. They buy sacred items like eagle feathers and add them to their regalia."...

-snip-

And it appears that members of these associations aren't interested in advocating for any improvement to the conditions of "real" Indians. See this reader's comment:

I am an American temporarily living in Berlin, Germany and working on endeavors to advocate and educate on contemporary North American indigenous conflicts including conflicts over land, Treaty, cultural, and human rights. I work in affiliation and with support from several indigenous grassroots community groups near the United States and Mexico border (who are suffering grave indignities as a result of the border wall, the drug cartels), First Nations in Canada who are battling the multi-national corporate exploitation of the Albertan oil tar sands, and the Western Shoshone in Nevada who are battling multi-national corporate mineral extraction and the nuclear industry in Nevada.

In my work in Germany, I have lectured or given speaking engagements at universities, human rights organizations, and even had the opportunity recently to speak with a European Union government official. Germany, like the rest, signed and committed to the September 2007 United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

None of these groups and people believe nor have an interest in supporting, advocating, or educating the Germans about these conflicts. While there is, of course, the behind-the scenes "politics" with international foreign policy and economic developments as the advance-market economies among the United States, Canada, and Germany (and the rest of the G-8 countries) are inextricably linked, there is also the problem in Germany with the cultural clichés, stereotypes, and this "romance" with Karl May "Indians". It permeates every aspect of German society – whether in minuscule or large ways.

I have contacted the Native American Association of Germany several times in regards to these conflicts, with absolutely no response of support or interest from this organization of any kind. I find it very uncanny that Carmen Kwansy is quoted as saying, "The conflict is they have to find out that Native Americans are just people." Perhaps, this is an understated."

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:42 PM

Here's some information about Karl May from his Wikipedia page:

"Karl Friedrich May (February 25, 1842 – March 30, 1912) was one of the best selling German writers of all time, noted mainly for books set in the American Old West, (best known for the characters of Winnetou and Old Shatterhand) and similar books set in the Orient and Middle East. In addition, he wrote stories set in his native Germany, in China and in South America. May also wrote poetry and several plays, as well as composing music; he was proficient with several musical instruments. May's musical version of "Ave Maria" became very well known...

May visited North America in 1908, long after writing the novels set there, and he never travelled farther west than Buffalo, New York. He compensated successfully for his lack of direct experience with the West by a combination of creativity, imagination, and factual sources including maps, travel accounts and guide books, as well as anthropological and linguistic studies.

Non-dogmatic Christian feelings and values play an important role, and May's heroes are often described as being of German ancestry. In addition, following the Romantic ideal of the "noble savage" and inspired by the writings of James Fenimore Cooper, his Native Americans are usually portrayed as innocent victims of white law-breakers, and many are presented as heroic characters. In his later works, there is a strong element of mysticism.

For the novels set in America, May created the characters of Winnetou, the wise chief of the Apache Tribe, and Old Shatterhand, the author's alter ego and Winnetou's white blood brother. Another successful series of novels is set in the Ottoman Empire. Here the narrator-protagonist calls himself Kara Ben Nemsi, i.e. Karl, son of Germany, and travels with his local guide and servant Hadschi Halef Omar through the Sahara desert and the Near East, experiencing many exciting adventures."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_May

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:42 PM

"If Germans knew the conditions in which a lot of Natives live today, they would have no interest in recreating them."
- Marta Carlson

This sums up perfectly the whole sorry thing. Offensive doesn't even begin to describe what these Germans are doing. I wonder what they'd do if we recreated something they hold dear (wait though, there is nothing they hold dear, hence this farce.

Some white folk simply don't get it!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:02 PM

There's also the question of which group referent for Indians is most appropriate to use (IMO: It should be the group referent that that group indicates that they prefer).

See this excerpt from that article:

Once, as part of his promotion efforts, [John Blackbird] described his documentary in an e-mail to a hobbyist organization as being about "Indian life." He received a quick response informing him that the proper term was "First Nations," that he would do well not to use racist terminology.

"I am an Indian!" Blackbird shot back. "My friends are Indians, my family are Indians. We have always called ourselves Indians. I have a status card from the Canadian government that tells me I am an Indian. You have no right to tell me what I am."

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:03 PM

Ms Beak - create a re-enactment of the Munich OktoberFest with lederhosen and so on, outlawing German purity law beer and substituting Jimson Weed...

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:13 PM

"My friends are Indians, my family are Indians. We have always called ourselves Indians. I have a status card from the Canadian government that tells me I am an Indian. You have no right to tell me what I am."
- John Blackbird

You have to remember he, Blackbird, was raised in a white household and taught to revile all things Native. I and my sisters were raised in a mixed household (father white, mother full blood Mohawk)I was taught that the term IS First Nations. As the native actor, Graeme Green once said, when asked what it was like to be an Indian actor, I have no idea, I wasn't born in and have never been to India.
By the way, I and my sisters have our status card, permissable if the mother is Native.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
Half and Half

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:20 PM

Ollie, among most African Americans nowadays, the generally accepted formal referent is "African American" and the generally accepted informal referent is "Black" (written with either a capital "b" or a small "b"). These referents are usually interchangable when used in semi-formal writing such as blogging.

I'm respectfully asking do you think that this is the same thing as the "First Nation" [formal] and "Indian" [informal] referents in Canada, and the "Native American" [formal] and Indian [informal] referents in the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

JWOB, in the US we haven't yet got around to "First Nation" terminology, as you know. I wish we did; it makes a lot more sense than 'Indian'.

But I too have "Indian" friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Azizi, the term Indian was originally a case of mistaken identity, Columbus really did believe he'd reached India (I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads Columbus didn't discover diddley squat). The term has been used in a derogatory manner for as long as I can remember (#$@$*! Indian etc.)but people will insist on using it, including Natives. I refuse to answer to it.

Ebbie, education what is required, mind you, in the U.S case, some white folk haven't gotten over Little Big Horn yet.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms
half and half

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

The Indian Reservation just up the road is full of people who call themselves Indians or, more specifically, Shoshones, Bannocks, or Shobans. A Potawatomie once said to me, "Anyone born in the US is a native American -- call me an Indian or better, a Potawatomie." A Ute, who is full blood and grew up on the rez, said as he hugged me, "Call me brother -- I was in the Infantry too."

There are nuances that a generic "First Nations" or "Native Americans" or "Indians" do not, and cannot, cover.

It disturbs me to see whites acting as Indians at re-enactments, but they at least have the grace (99% of them) to treat the people the represent with respect and they CERTAINLY don't stage a "Sun Dance" or any other sacred ritual. Good Heavens! That would be like staging a Catholic Mass or a Jewish Bar or Bat Mitzvah!

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:50 PM

"they CERTAINLY don't stage a "Sun Dance" or any other sacred ritual"
- Rapaire

Don't they...oh....? That's NOT what one eye-witess says!

Some Natives do take issue. When he first traveled to Germany, David Redbird Baker, an Ojibwe, thought adults playing cowboys and Indians were cute. But when the hobbyists began staging sacred ceremonies like GHOST and SUN DANCES and sweat lodges, Baker was offended.

"They take the social and religious ceremonies and change them beyond recognition," says Baker, who believes that hobbyists, in claiming the right to improvise on the most sacred rituals, have begun to develop a sense of ownership over Native culture. They've held dances where anyone in modern dress is barred from attending—even visiting Natives. They buy sacred items like eagle feathers and add them to their regalia. They've even allowed women to dance during their "moon time," which is, according to Baker, the equivalent of a cardinal sin.

You might think the term First Nations is generic (generic, now there's a white mans term for you) but many of us do not, so please........

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
half and half

Subject: The WHOLE Soup and Imperturbable Equanimity
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:16 PM

Europeans are crazy for what THEY call "Negro Spirituals," too. There are some serious ethnologists reviving that form without any idea of the controversies that rage in the US over the related justice issues, vocab issues, semantics, politics, present-day cultural outgrowths, etc.

It's messy, living in the midst of cultural diffusion.

I'm sure there are Brazilians who would cringe over the way I whistle Brazilian cafe music alongside Brazilian indio music. Just as I am sure there are nice, polite Bolivians who would have a cow if they saw how much Hardi and I enjoyed "The Fighting Cholitas" (a movie short) yesterday, and I wonder what los Mexicanos ricos felt about artist Frida and the movie made about her and Diego Rivera. I am only starting to learn about classes in Mexico. I only "know" the class that sends cheap Mexican restaurants here. (If I want to know more, I must LOOK.)

If we are going to REALLY honor cultures, and not just imitate them, we have to ALSO honor their diffusion, and we have to recognize that the idea of Indians being portrayed in Germany is not REALLY any different from my watching "The Grey Zone" about Auschwitz "medical" staff Jews (and deathcamp military staff) aided by interned Jews.

To even begin to look into any of these cultures, a certain thickness of skin is required if one is going to amass enough info (or even pseudo-info) to start the thought process.

Until that thought process has material upon which to work, it's pre-emptive, IMO, and reactive, to take a moral position.

A fella at our health club entirely misses this point. His preference is verbally violent "debate." (He'd be right at home in Mudcat BS threads, but I doubt we'd enjoy him here.) He's demonized Dems and all liberals, with no idea what's actually in that type of soup. Just the name "Obama" is enough to unleash verbal death threats-- not agains Obama, but aginst anyone who will not damn Obama with him, in the hot tub. (I was invited to a drowning for not identifying my political party and for asking some relaxed, friendly questions to see if his thought process was wired anynmore, at all.) His thought process has not yet begun-- he's purely reactionary. At least as it concerns "politics."

We here at Mudcat have our own reactive tendencies. Me, I'd like to go to a German Indian PowWow. I am sure I would learn a lot. It would go into the soup I already swim in, in my head and heart.

On my MP3 player for Winter aquatic curriculum will be two different "histories" of "Africa." My soup is not exclusive. It's not any one ethnic cuisine. I won't care for the taste of it each time I take a taste, I imagine, but it IS what's there to be added. And for MY interests, add it I must.

I think we as human beans NEED the broadness of total diversity in order to have relevant thoughts, and in order to pretend to reliable moral judgment.

I think we need ALL of us to BE us. It is certainly true in church life: if I cannot get along in imperturbable equanimity with the people I MOST detest, I haven't learned enough yet.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:36 PM

It wou;d be great if there was some general agreement about what the most appropriate group referent was for people in any nation who have been called "Indian". But it seems to me that we are in the same in between time that occurred as the 1960s to the end of the 1980s were in the USA when it came to what was the grooup referent most Black Americans preferred to be called.

In my lifetime (I'm 61 years old), I recall the accepted referents were "Negro" and "Colored" (both used relatively interchangeably but Negro usually being considered the most formal referent). Then for a short time the formal referent changed to Afro-American with Black being the informal referent. And since at least the 1990s the formal referent has been African American. (I also remember when that referent was written "African-American" but people in the USA tend to spell new words with hypens and then drop eventually drop the hyphen so it's not surprising that that happened in this case).

Some afrocentric Black people (in the USA) use "African" (without the addition of "American") for anyone who is Black. And the term African American is confusing because all people in the USA who are of some African descent aren't the same as the population of people who are referred to as African American-however that population is defined. And it can't just be those people who have some ancestor who was enslaved in the USA. I don't have any slave ancestors who I know about...My father was adopted from Michigan and my mother was born in the USA but her parents came from Trinidad and from Barbados. So according to that definition, I'm not African American. Hah!

I know adults who are children of Africans (born in continental Africa) who were raised for the most part in the USA. Those
individuals call themselves African Americans and are considered by other people to be African Americans. Their parents are also considered to be African Americans-at least until they start talking with an accent. Then people realize that they are "really" African Americans. The same thing happens to people who "look Black" (whatever that really means) who are from the Caribbean, South American or elsewhere.

And it seems to me that the same confusion about group referents tha people in the USA went through regarding African Americans, and we appear to be going through regarding American Indians, we are also going through with regard to Latinos/Hispanics.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

No, no -- I'm speaking about the ones I know here in the States, not about those elsewhere. I can't speak about them because if they ARE trying to emulate a Sun Dance or other sacred thing I'd get so hopping mad I'd kick something. I have never seen a "buckskinner" who "plays" an Indian -- Shawnee, Delaware, Apache, Sioux, Kiowa, Navajo, Inuit, or ANY member of ANY Nation -- even attempt a drum or a dance.

I have been invited to participate in a Veterans' Dance at a Pow Wow, but I wasn't comfortable doing so. I wasn't comfortable "Indian Dancing" in Boy Scouts, either, or with the Scouts' various "Indian" ceremonies at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:50 PM

I'm excited by all these re-creations. The people doing Civil War battles and US Revolutionary War battles are simply top notch. They fill a reel need in the lacking psyches of us mod Americans who never saw any value at all to studying history when it was offered to us on a silver platter in our school curriculums. We KNEW absolutely that here and now was all there is -- and that we should use our credit cards to the max -- also here and now.

Personally I feel that what is needed is a yearly recreational re-creation of the slow motion police chase of O.J. Simpson back and forth, up and down, to and fro, this way and that way, on the California freeways.

Oh, the humanity. How great will that be!?? And Kato Kaelin will finally find a reason for living---and a real job for once. It will be like a Star Trek Convention. Remarkable. It's better than being a Cub fan! Hell, God gives us time so we can find absolutely dumb-ass ways to spend/waste it! Alas, time, like gas and kidney stones, must be passed!

This is just/only one guy's Value judgment.

Art Thieme
(who is fond of saying: If it wasn't for time, we'd have to do everything all at once!")

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM

Here's a link to a book on Indian re-enactment camps in Germany and (according to the page of the book I read) also in Czechlovkia:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA547&lpg=PA547&dq=germany+indian+reenactment+camps&source=bl&ots=4npgK2_okV&si
"Germany and the Americas: culture, politics, and history"
By Thomas Adam

**

I find Google books difficult to read. But some here might be interested in this information.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:03 PM

I've known a number of Germans who are truly in love with anything that connects with Native Americans/Indians/Amerindians/First Nations people or whatever the hell it makes YOU happy to call them. ;-)

There is nothing harmful whatsoever in the innocent enthusiasm of these Germans for Amerindian culture. To think there is something harmful in it is to raise a big stink over something that does no harm to anyone, but makes a lot of Germans happy with a hobby that they personally can enjoy. It's a hobby, folks. It's no different than if someone was fascinated by the Roman civilization, Greek civilization, Vikings, Easter Islanders, the Masai or any other cultural group. People should be allowed to have a culture they get excited about if it suits them, even if they do mythologize it somewhat. So what? It's their business what they get excited about in life and have an affection for, not yours.

I can point you in the direction of several great protest songs by Buffy Sainte-Marie (who IS a Native American) that call Native Americans "Indians" while defending their rights...so that's not really an issue either. You will not win an award in heaven or anywhere else for deciding that there is only one politically correct term to use for Amerindians, because they themselves don't all use the same term for themselves.

So get over it. Leave other people to their minor imperfections, because the odds are that you aren't perfect either.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:17 PM

There is nothing harmful whatsoever in the innocent enthusiasm of these Germans for Amerindian culture
-Little Hawk

I consider it problematic and harmful if the people who are re-enacting Native American culture don't adequately research what they are re-enacting and pass on mis-information as the real thing, and if they don't respect the sacred traditions that of the people whose customs they focus upon.

Also, it would be nice if these people who have such a high regard for American Indians from the past would focus some of their energy to helping the American Indians in the present.

But I guess that's too much like right.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:18 PM

In the Bolivian short I mentioned upthread, I found it fascinating that IN SPANISH as they were speaking it, the word used to refer to themselves was "indigina" (in-DEE-hee-nah: indigenous). As it appeared in the subtitles, INDIAN. So I just re-programmed my mind accordingly.

A word expanded is a concept gained.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:47 PM

I've been told by quite a few Native Americans (people indigenous to what is now the USA, and born and raised here) that they prefer to be called "Indians". Perhaps there is a cultural difference between indigenous people in the US and Canada on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:05 PM

(Although personally, I think that "First Nations" is a really good term.)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:16 PM

It is true Europeans find the whole cowboy western theme far more interesting than Americans.

Subject: Who Are We Talking About?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:55 PM

When we say "African American," we mean that we really have no idea what PLACE in Africa or what nation were the place or nation of origin. Most of that info of origin has been stamped out by the fact that most of the people to whom it applies became Americans by reason of their forebears having been kidnapped (sold/traded/etc) with little or no documentation about their origins.

When we say "First Nations" it's easy-- simply make a similarly-sweeping statement to the above paragraph. But most people to whom that term applies DO know their backgrounds. They may not have been raised in a traditional culture, but they at least know what culture it might have been if they had been raised in it. So when a "white" person uses that "First Nations" term, it CAN mean, "YOU may know your origin but I have not bothered to find out and I assume you are all pretty much the same."

When we say "Latina" or "Hispanic" I KNOW we give great offense, usually, or (at best) a clue to our own ignorance. ALL the "Latina" or "Hispanic" people WE have known (Hardi and I) prefer greatly that we know or ask where they came from and what their ethnic identity is and/or has been among their forebears. There are a zillion South American cultures NOW that spring from a couple of zillion other cultures of origin. (Zillion = exaggeration-speak)

These factors are all further complicated by CLASS distinctions arising from how people were raised, and how they live now.

The people about whom these referents are used are no more homogeneous than are the African American people Azizi is eager to tell us do not want certain terms used-- though BTW there are a good many of "them" that DO use and prefer to use those terms, and to have them used by others.

This dichotomy of opinion is due to the non-homogeneity of that group. It's as diverse a group as are Latinas.

Like Latinas, some members of each of the groups described in this post (poorly, with the only words I have at the moment) are or have been enemies of other people ALSO described by the same referents. They not only are different from one another-- some of them do not want, at all, to be lumped together with people they consider their enemies.

It's just not accurate to use any of these "easy" referents without thinking about these things... though it may be "politically correct."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:12 PM

Andres Guerra said to me, "'Hispanic' and 'Latino' just refer to people from Latin America or who speak Spanish, I found out. Me, I'm an American of Mexican descent -- five generations of it, like most of the other families here. Like Dave Martinez over there -- head shaved bald, punk rocker, rides a motorcycle, chief public defender, and all the Spanish he knows is dirty. Just call me an American."

We were sitting at the Library Board meeting, and Julian Gabiola (Basque-American) called Andy a bad name in Spanish and another in Basque. So Anne (ex-USMC-American), the Board Chair, told them to stop insulting each other in Spanish and Basque or she'd start in German.

We have interesting Board Meetings. We even get work done.

By the way, Andy is of darker skin that Dave. Nobody gives a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:30 PM

My friend Fran proudly calls herself "Hispanic". If you ask her which Spanish speaking country her ancestors come from, she says, "Spain". Her family has been living in New Mexico for more than four hundred years. Or maybe five hundred. I can never remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:41 PM

As I've said before, I prefer what Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law center does: refers to American (first) then any designation, i.e. of African, Native, Chinese, etc. descent. Which makes us all Americans first AND then honours our heritage.

Like Rapaire, I count among my friends Shoshone, Arapaho, and Lakota who call themselves "Indian" and, some, like Keith Secola (don't know him personally but would like to!) who penned what is called the "Unofficial Native American Anthem:" NDN Cars. Several of my friends have told me I have a "red" heart and remind me we are all related which is why I sometimes sign off with "Mitakuye Oyasin" (we are all related.)

As to the Germans...I have mixed feelings about it. Definitely do not think they should do any rituals without true Native American/First Nation guidance, if at all.

"The human race, is the face of all people, different tongues, one heart."--KEITH SECOLA

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 11:15 PM

When I started this thread, I didn't expect the conversation would focus on racial referents.

I brought up the topic of the changes in acceptable referents for Black Americans as a way of making this point: "And it seems to me that the same confusion about group referents tha people in the USA went through regarding African Americans, and we appear to be going through regarding American Indians, we are also going through with regard to Latinos/Hispanics."

Given that no people are homogeneous, even when the majority of people in a particular population begin using a particular referent for themselves and insist that this referent is the most appropriate one for others to use for them, there will be some people in that group who disagree and who still favor and still use another referent.

And that is all that I care to say on this thread about Black racial referents since that is not the focus of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 08:17 AM

Americans do the same thing with their "Highland games" and Irish culture events. The difference is that these Americans actually claim to *be* Scottish or Irish.

The "Scottish" Americans have gone one better than the German re-enactors by inventing their own religious ritual out of thin air: Kirking of the Tartan

I suspect most Scottish Christians would regard that as tackiness to the point of obscenity. (It was apparently invented by Peter Marshall during WW2 as something to help boost US support for Britain in the war. Got out of hand only long after his death, and the biography "A Man Called Peter" by his wife doesn't even mention it).

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: pdq
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 08:20 AM

Perhaps the PC crowd will demand a ban on toga parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 12:33 PM

When I started this thread, I didn't expect the conversation would focus on racial referents.

And my comments about referents were in illustration of a larger point (you'd have to read the whole post in light of my previous post), not an effort to "beat up" on Azizi, who reminds us often that hers is one voice she wishes were joined by other voices of people of color-- and I share that desire very much.

===

Most of the African Americans I know are very tired of their experience being used as if it can be a relevant starting point for other prejudicial aspects of society... as if they actually have much in common except the repeated experience of being shafted, but in ways that are so different that it's hard to make change unless one looks to what IS actually happening instead of getting comfy with the idea that we don't need to think about it because we think we already understand it. Reactive thinking will do that for ya. ;~)

===

First and foremost I want human beans to THINK about things, as clearly and as accurately as we can. And in that vein, I think we need to START thinking about these strange-to-us German events FROM the German point of view.

Anybody around here think they can speak to that?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: bankley
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM

5 years ago after 2 German friends told me about Karl May, I wrote a song called 'Llano Estacado'... I also have a few of the movies that were popular in the 60's... kind of funny hearing the characters speaking German... I think they were filmed in Yugoslavia..

'Singed by the sun, stung by the night,
Stunned by the brilliance of the Southwestern sights
Scarred in the battle's rattle of the righteous fight,
We rode as brothers while others sold their souls
To the blind ambition of bullet-ridden goals
Truth and justice, the trail we chose,
rose to meet us in the desert light

Old Shatterhand said to Winnetou "We lost some but we win a few,
back to back, I covered you as you watched over me,
Veteran amigos of a noble breed against bad hombres
who thieve more than they need
but we wouldn't concede to a stampede of greed
that would have us bleed into history"

that's an excerpt there 3 more verses, a chorus, plus a bit of German and Spanish mixed in at one point... very dusty,dry feeling

pm me your email Azzizi, and I'll send you an mp3 of it..


yeah it's easy to tell the real Natives at the re-enactments cuz they're usually wearing t-shirts and baseball caps... heh, heh

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

I'm a bit in awe of the amount of clashing concepts here. So I go back to first principles.

Everyone concerned in this fracas is human. Every human is born with an ethnicity: Theyhave no control over it. I believe people have no cause to be ashamed of what they have no control over. Should they then be proud?

We have no control over the past, either, it is perception and propaganda about the past that we can control.

In the United States I've seen plenty of ethnic caracatures during my youth and adolescence, many of them were in service of popularization and commercialization completely unrelated to the stereotypes: Cleveland Indians, Aunt Jemima pancake syrup. Was harm being done to anyone by these stereotypes? If so, was ONLY harm being done by them. There are those who argue that publicity of any kind is good.

I was aware of German interest in "The Wild West" and I was under the impression there is a subculture that is well read on the subject, therefore more knowledgeable on details and events than the average American. On to the topic of Germans playing Indians. I'd never heard of the works of May. I wonder if there is an English version of same, also how they would read to modern sensibility. At some level it is amusing to reflect that the theme of 'cowboys and Indians' has a universality to it, and to wonder if somewhere in Bombay some kid is sitting on a lawn reading a Hindi version of Battle at the O K Corral. I don't think that's a stretch.

I think when someone is introduced to another culture it goes through a filter. What emerges may very well be entirely different from what one expects, and it is fascinating to make a study of same.

The story of the United States is pretty much a tale of culture clashes withing a larger culture, and if the larger (maybe philosophically we'd call it a META-) culture can survive. (As usual, Lincoln said it best: "Whether a nation so constituted can long endure." The reason it has endured is for the most part the culture clashes of America have been productive and creative more than they have been destructive and diminishing, though that is certainly a vital part of it.

Now, maybe due to my imagination and my own German name, I'm assuming the Teutonic brain has taken a philosophic attitude toward this survival in the wild. But maybe it'a a bunch of krauts in the kountry wearing funny hats. I dunno.

I don't see why this should be a big downer from a Native point of view (In Alaska we are already Americans, so we use the term "Native" also because we have two main branches: Indians and Eskimos and it is considered impolite to mistake one for other). I find most Natives to be informed and aware enough to have a sense of proportion. I think knowing that large numbers of Germans are even aware of Native Americans can be a positive thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 02:38 PM

Sounds to me as if these German "hobbyist" get-togethers are to true Native American nations' ceremonies as the Society for Creative Anachronism's events are to Gregorian chant.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 03:15 PM

Good point, Sharon A. SCA events - and mindsets - are interesting and fun. Same as with re-enacting the days of Robin Hood. Or the days of Pioneer America. Hmmmm. That puts a different spin on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 03:20 PM

I made a little bet with myself that if I opened this thread the name "Karl May" would jump out at me. Sure 'nuff, there it was. He was a source of many conversations in my American Indian Literature courses in graduate school, and the topic of many papers at scholarly conferences. And he's still a bit of a head-scratcher, even after all of that analysis.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 06:45 PM

The people doing Civil War battles and US Revolutionary War battles are simply top notch.

Best thing these time-transvestites could do for the spectators and for themselves would be to use live ammunition instead of blanks.

"Battle re-enactments" my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Rumncoke
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:12 PM

Only a few hours ago I was reading on another forum concerned with kilts, that there was a group who reenacted in great kilts, claiming to be depicting the time of Robert the Bruce.

Now the first written, or any, evidence of the great kilt is the late 16th century, long after The Bruce.

One of the forum members enquired if they had documentation for the earlier date - and was told that a certain museum curator had told them it was correct.

He wrote an email back explaining that he WAS that museum curator, and that as far as he knew there was no evidence to support their wearing the great kilt.

They sent a very nasty reply - well I supose they would do -

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 08:30 PM

Anne, after reading your post, I was curious what a "great kilt" was. In less than five minutes, via Google, I found this website http://www.kilts-n-stuff.com/Celtic_History/great_kilt.html.

Here's an excerpt from that site:

Great Kilt History & Info

The Great Kilt is also known as the "breacan an fheilidh" or "feile mor". The first known reference to this mode of dress was made in 1594 in The Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell in a description of a corps of Hebrideans who had come to The O'Donnell's assistance: "They were recognised among the Irish soldiers by the distinction of their arms and clothing, their habits and language, for their exterior dress was mottled cloaks of many colours with a fringe to their shins and calves, their belts were over their loins outside their cloaks."

-snip-


It seems to me that at least some re-enactment groups don't want to "re-enact" the past, the want to "re-interprete" or "invent" the past with regard to their areas of interest.

And yes I think such careless research or no research at all can be harmful, particularly when ethnocentrism and racism are part of the mix. I'm referring to those re-inactors who believe that they know more about a particular culture than people from that culture or other people who have studied the history of that culture. And I'm referring to those re-inactors who have little or no respect for the sacred traditions of the people whose culture they are re-inacting.

How much misinformation is going to be passed on because of these types of re-inactors? Hopefully, there are other groups of re-inactors who are more conscientous and are more considerate of the cultural traditions of the people they want to pretend to be for a small period of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 08:39 PM

On the subject of pre-1840, I suspect you'd find that much of the information you'd be given in camp would tend to be less inaccurate than the info in standard History Books.

Whether you find it offensive or not, you might be surprised to learn that most of the time, the folks who are interested enough in the subject to acquire and use equipment/skills are usually interested enough to put an effort into digging into history a little bit deeper than you might expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Maryrrf
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 09:23 PM

Years ago when I lived in Germany I visited a friend of a friend who was into this "Wild West" reenacting. He had become a very skilled leatherworker, making pouches, leggings, moccasins, and even saddles and bridles. I thought it was kind of silly but I think in the grand scheme of things it's harmless. It's too bad they're not interested in getting involved in present day social action groups for Native Americans, but really this is a kind of play acting/dress up game. I view it as similar to the SCA groups. They're just in it for fun, and if they romanticize the past - well so what? It's just a hobby. If I got some people together to play "Robin Hood" and wore a Maid Marian costume and got the menfolk outfitted in lincoln green tights and tunics, and we ran around in the Virginia woods pretending we were in Sherwood Forest hiding from the Sheriff of Nottingham I might be viewed as eccentric, but I wouldn't be doing any harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 10:22 PM

My first hero was Robin Hood. Not because of who he was (or was not) but a largeish group living undetected in the forest was the stuff of fantasy for me. I spent years of my childhood dreaming about it.

Still haven't figured out how one would do it - smoking fires, smells of cooking, sounds of voices, footprints pounded into the dirt, rain storms, sleeping arrangements - everyone curled up in coats and cloaks at the foot of trees? - hauling groceries in- the difficulties are endless.

So, I loved fantasy, but reality kept intruding...

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 11:21 PM

How much misinformation is going to be passed on because of these types of re-inactors?

Whoa, they are not doing it to educate others, but to entertain themselves and maybe learn a bit themselves.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 02:36 AM

The biggest problem in playing Robin Hood nowadays would probably be finding a large enough surviving part of Sherwood Forest!
I used to pass one of those "Indian" camps in summer on the train when I taught at Siegen. Like some other posters here, I never regarded those Germans as anything other than harmless eccentrics. The "Indian" life, which they play at, was really just a fantasy created by a penny dreadful author. I think that the Cherokee and part Cherokee people whom I know, would be more inclined to just smile at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Rumncoke
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:56 AM

I am sure tht my eyes go a bit glazed when someone corrects my North of England dialect, because they have heard someone on a record (sorry - cd) singing it differently.

The best one is the mondegreen 'tyummun' for empty tubs in a colliery. It is actually t' empty 'uns, that is, the empty ones.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 02:56 PM

The only people who get offended really are the pc brigade who are in short - complete nutters. What's wrong with dressing up as injuns? We have working class oiks dressing up as nice middle class professionals in England but who cares? Ah, but they do give themselves away when they open their mouths!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:20 PM

Greg F: writted:
Best thing these time-transvestites could do for the spectators and for themselves would be to use live ammunition instead of blanks.


Then my writing here would be eclipsed by a too-brief life!

Robo, who fell in a nameless re-enactor battle in Virginia having never fired a shot, being standard bearer for the 2nd Texas. As proof of my dedication to the authenticity of the Confederate lifestyle, I went without pastrami for an entire weekend.

"Battle re-enactments" my arse.
relevant Simpsons quote here:
*Bart: No offense, Homer, but your half-assed underparenting was a lot more fun than your half-assed overparenting.
Homer: But I'm using my whole ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: meself
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:10 PM

There is a great documentary about two Aboriginal-Canadian medicine-persons visiting a Czechaslovakian (darn! can't spell it anymore) "Indian tribe". Don't know the name of it, unfortunately. The two Aboriginals go through a process of bafflement, disorientation, repugnance, admiration, consternation, eventually arriving at a kind of sympathetic understanding, and a guarded fellow-feeling. If I get time, I'll try to find a title.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:39 PM

meself, when a country disbands you forget with a vengeance, huh! It used to be 'CzechO',etc, by the way. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 08:17 PM

Azizi..from OP:
"Has anyone on Mudcat ever heard of these Indian re-creation camps? Are there any camps like this in other European countries and/or in the USA, Canada, or Australia? (nations where most Mudcatters live)."

I'm not sure anybody answered that question.
There are active groups in the US and England.