BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 08:40 PM

Melissa, thanks for your response. Just a clarification that I'm asking because of my curiosity and not in any way to be argumentative-are you saying that there are re-creation"/re-inactment camps/groups in the United States and in England that focus on the cultures of American Indians?

If so, do any or all of those camps in the USA and/or in England model themselves after Karl May fictionalized version/s of American Indian cultures?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 08:46 PM

I never heard of May until this thread.

The groups I've encountered and/or shared camp with (US) vary in their portrayal of accurate history..with the heavy end leaning toward accuracy and respectful approach.
The pictures and emailed conversation with a lady in England looked/seemed like they were making an effort at continual learning and authenticity.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 08:58 PM

I'm glad to hear that Melissa.

However, I'm still not clear whether those camps you are speaking about are Indian re-creation camps.

If not, which cultures are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:04 PM

There are multicultural PowWows here where Senecas and other nations still live, that they lead and that are open to anyone. It's my understading that people of all sorts do go to them and are welcome to do whatever they wish, purty much, to join in/contribute. (They are participatory as opposed to performance-oriented.)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:06 PM

there are different eras chosen by different groups.
I do not know anybody who would consider themselves "Indian Re-enactors"..or who would allow themselves to be called that on a flyer or anything.

I think you're picturing the whole thing a lot nastier than it truly is.
I do Fur Trade Era and I do not pretend to be an 'indian' even though our equipment and skills are Plains based (because that's what is appropriate for this area)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:15 PM

Azizi, at the risk of telling you what you may already know, there is a large "re-enactors" group or rather groups out there. I stumbled upon a mass meeting of them once at a celebration of Richmond's 350th anniversary. There were several Civil War contingents, including a group of African Americans in Union Garb with a cannon who had driven down from Massachusetts. I didn't have any kind of authentic garb, so I could only join as a Confederate.

There were also groups who called themselves "Mountain Men" who were out of a slightly earlier era.

Back in Massachusetts there are many re-enactors of the Colonial/ Revolutionary period. I've seen redcoats marching in tight drill with regimental bagpipes.

I have not seen Native American re-enactors, but it would not surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:24 PM

I appreciate your response Melissa.

Yes, I'm aware of the Civil War re-inactment groups. And I'm aware that there are Elizabethan (I think that's the period) re-enactment groups in my (adopted) state of Pennsylvania and elsewhere, I'm sure.


But I didn't know about the other groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:41 PM

By the way, some years ago I happened to see a photograph in USA Today newspaper of the minister of my mother's church (in New Jersey) dressed in a Confederate uniform to mark his participation in a Civil War re-enactment.

Now that is really fictionalized. Yes, I'm aware that there were Black men with the Confederate army in one role or another. But I'm sure that those Black men didn't wear Confederate uniforms.

Heck, probably most of the Confederate and Union soldiers didn't wear uniforms.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:52 PM

Sorry, Susan I just saw your post. Thanks for that information. And, thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I have found the discussion interesting.

Melissa, you wrote that you think that I'm "picturing the whole thing a lot nastier than it truly is".

By "nasty", I think you mean "bad"[?].

For what it's worth (and I recognize that it's not worth anything more than one person's opinion, I continue to have concerns about groups who act like the people described in Rumncoke (Anne's) post of 05 Sep 09 - 07:12 PM.

And I also wish that those associations which focus on past Indian cultures would provide some advocacy that would help to improve the current conditions of Indians.

And I don't like the idea of people performing sacred traditions and acting like they know more than those people whose traditions they are.

But beyond that, I'm cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 10:00 PM

Right, Azizi, I meant Bad.

What do you consider appropriate 'advocacy'?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Monique
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 05:27 AM

Azizi, there are such groups in France, they're called "Indianistes" but I couldn't find any info in English. According to this article there are also in Belgium. There's a link to a 11 page pdf document, it's from a University Degree from 1995. If you google "indianistes" you'll find stuff about these groups but also about scholars studying India. Here is another another document from McGill University, and here is a newspaper article -I don't know how long it'll be available. But guys, all this stuff is written in French, you need to you put it in an online translator, I can't translate so long documents
The way I feel it is that they're more or less playing "Cowboys and Indians" taking their role seriously though they don't believe/feel to be Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 05:46 AM

I've seen redcoats marching in tight drill with regimental bagpipes.

Did they paint their faces blue as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:07 AM

(1) Reenactments are a hobby for some Germans: Vikings, Indians, famous battles, old Germans (at Roman times), Celts, medieval Germany, and many more. I see no harm in them (ah well, lately there did some blood flow in a Viking battle)
(2) In German, there are two different words for "Indians": "Inder" (Asian) and "Indianer" (American)
(3) I only once was in a "German Restaurant" (in Canada) and it was a lousy reenactment with lots of factual errors.
(4) Karl May is really not read anymore among young Germans. His nationalist tone and his bad stereotyping of the persons (Germans = very good, French = very bad, English = good, Yankee = bad, Negroes = good natured but more than a bit dumb, racial mixtures = the worst of all) make him unacceptable today which is a good thing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:28 AM

Melissa, I prefer not to go into detail on this thread about your question to me about what I consider to be appropriate advocacy. However, as a partial answer, see the reader's comment that I quoted in my 03 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM post.

**

Again, thanks to all who have posted to this thread. Special thanks to Monique for sharing information about the French articles, and Wolfgang for giving us his perspective on this subject as a German citizen.

For what it's worth (and, again, I recognize that it's worth nothing more than anyone else's choice), I choose not to post to this thread again.


Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:07 AM

A last comment from me-- probably--


"Sample size" and "sample quality" matter.

I've been thinking about the difference between re-enactors and the people paid to "act" the part of people of various periods at hoistoric settlements (or in documentaries). There's a term for that (I can't recall it), and a Mudcatter we don't see much of these days has done this and done it well (KimC). And then there's the MUSIC side of that, such as Jed Marum's projects which include songwriting, where the characters speak and convey things of a historical nature.

Advocacy is another thing entirely.

ALL these approaches to dealing with the past, I find valuable, when I encounter them. They can make up part of a "good" sample. But they are different things and I don't think it makes sense to judge anyone for wherever their activities fall in the spectrum. Because we do not know enough (numbers) of the individuals involved well enough (in sufficient depth) to understand it from their viewpoint.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:01 PM

So, Robomatic, old man: were you in the service? And were you ever under fire?

If so, please inform how dressing up and playing Union/Confederate 'Cowboys and Indians' has anything whatsoever to do with actual combat experience or accurately portrays that experience for the viewing public.

Thanks.

PS: The U.S. National Park Service rightly forbids "battle reinactments" [sic] on national Civil War historic sites precisely because they are bogus BS & disrespectful to the memories of those who actually served & died in that conflict. It would be appropriate if the several States would enact the same prohibition.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:11 PM

I personally don't care for CivWar, Wild West Shows, skirmishes or the thing where they set up a false-front town and do a gunslingery skit. I also don't enjoy watching boy scout dancers.
If there was a suffragette group nearby, I'd be interested in finding out whether I'd like to run with them.

There's likely to be a surge in CivWar for a few years because of sesquicentennial coming up.

Azizi, I thought your questions were part of a conversation and it seemed reasonable (to me) for me to ask clarification on the term as you mean/use it so I could answer.
It has been nice to see you posting in a thread with your own words instead of pastes.
****

When my group does public events, we probably average between 2,000-5,000 'tourists' in a weekend. Each one of them has their own ideas, interests and way of visiting with us because each one of them is an individual..and some of them are jackasses, just like everywhere else.
During a weekend, we probably average around a half-dozen folks who come quietly to one of us and say something like "my grandparents used to talk about tipis..and I've never seen one"
Is it advocacy when we take them in, tell them about it, answer whatever they ask and let them feel welcome/comfortable in our camp? Is it advocacy when they come back next day with family/friends and can confidently share the stuff they learned day before..and also be comfortable enough with us to ask more questions as they come up?

Is it advocacy when we take a break from camp to go look at the museum and can sometimes help the staff by explaining what the things in some of their displays were used for..or when we see something that should not be in a museum--and can plant the idea that they really ought to think about returning it to where it belongs?

How about the part where by being easily accessible and friendly, we do a little bit of service toward ending the nonsense about 'savage heathens' by giving folks a chance to see for themselves that it's a twisted, unbalanced viewpoint.

If you want to be disgusted and horrified, that's fine with me.
I refuse to be ashamed or apologetic for participating because I believe some of us Give more than we Take and the folks who come through our camp seem to agree.

Through a standard weekend, probably at least half of the folks that come through stay with us for over an hour and a hundred or so spend several hours hanging out with us and being delighted when they have a chance to pick up a camp chore.

I don't think we're BadGuys and I doubt that the Germans are either. Interviewers who are looking for a story about strangeness usually have a talent for finding a way to make anything look strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 05:04 PM

Damn, Azizi, now that Malcom Douglas is gone you are as much the voice of quality control here as anyone (but I wish I could get you intereste in the blues, which, although I am English and therefore no longer do it for reasons similar to those you so clearly set out above) so may I say I agree with what you have said above and wish you would not go.

Although I am short of respect form alny religion, I think it is impolite to misrepresent the religious rituals of another. (Well, unless maybe in a Hell-fire club, where the important thing is sexual stimulation)(Joke!)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:12 PM

Greg ol' feller:

you done writ:
So, Robomatic, old man: were you in the service? And were you ever under fire?
I don't understand the relevance of the question to what is to follow, therefore I'm not answering until you either establish a pertinency or choose to divulge information your ownself.

If so, please inform how dressing up and playing Union/Confederate 'Cowboys and Indians' has anything whatsoever to do with actual combat experience or accurately portrays that experience for the viewing public.

I'm not making any such claims. I think it was considered valuable experience more for the participants than the viewing public. We did march in front of the viewing public as part of a multi-hued parade to honor the city of Richmond. I recall waiting in a city cul-de-sac for the proper assembly point where we would be inserted into the proper 'slot', a few high school bands were nearby and we popped some John Travolta attitudes in a stance that could only be termed "disco-rebel" but again, I would not venture to say this was for the learning experience of the viewing public.

Other things I learned. Re-enactment officers can behave as a**holes analogous to genuine officers. (I was reminded of the Stanford Prison Experiment).

PS: The U.S. National Park Service rightly forbids "battle reinactments" [sic] on national Civil War historic sites precisely because they are bogus BS & disrespectful to the memories of those who actually served & died in that conflict. It would be appropriate if the several States would enact the same prohibition.

I think that's a good idea along the principle if you allow one in, where does one stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: meself
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:48 PM

Unfortunately, this audio show does not seem to be on-line, but it is all about the issues we've been discussing. The precis is worth reading, and there is a reading list as well as links to relevant sites: http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/playing_indian/index.html.

It was on this show, incidentally, that I heard about the Native Canadian who makes his living as a "professional Indian" in Germany, and who had made a film about a Native who embarks on a spiritual quest that involves transforming himself into a liederhausen-clad German polka-accordionist. The title is, "A Man Called Horst".

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:27 PM

Don't worry, Robo.    Greg is just being his normal charming self. He's just the soul of tolerance, good feeling, and good taste--he can't help it.   Just call him our resident secular Torquemada. It fits--perfectly. Anything he doesn't believe in must be stamped out. And I'm sure he'll be glad to list the fields in which he is the ultimate authority--you may not even have to ask.   It seems to be a long list.



Re: topic:   I had occasion to see a cowboys and Indians show in Germany several eons ago. It was hilarious.   I can't remember what "Head'em off at the pass" was in German. But it sure was obvious that's what they were saying.

And I would suspect--no, I have no proof whatsosever, in case that's an issue--- that some of the non-Americans who are fascinated by American Indian culture--or whatever the current ultimate authorities decree is the acceptable term--actually do give some financial support to real causes.

It seems to be in large part nothing more threatening than the fascination with the exotic.
And it seems reasonable to guess that they would therefore be in favor of trying to maintain this culture.   Would Mudcatters be happier if these hobbyists instead wanted to push hard for immediate total assimilation of American Indians into the broader culture?

I'm not a huge fan of cliches, but this one is unavoidable:   C'mon people, lighten up.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:48 PM

This thread put me in mind of the ultimate "playing Cowboys and Indians" show, one of the great acting troupes of history, which employed to play Cowboys and Indians: Cowboys and Indians. Of course I'm referring to Buffalo Bill Cody and his traveling Wild West Show which brought the (then dying or newly dead) old wild west to New York and even London. I don't know if they made it to Germany. And I recently rented a movie which tried to make a point: From 1976: "Buffalo Bill And The Indians: Or Sitting Bull's History Lesson" with Paul Newman in the title role: For me the movie got over-pedantic in spots, but it had some good scenes and was clearly involved in the fictionalization of the Wild West even as the Wild West was fresh in the memories of the real participants. There's a cute scene early in the movie where Sitting Bull is being brought to the show to maybe sign on. Buffalo Bill has a prepared reception committee and a prepared speech all 'prepared' and he waits for a cavalry escort with some attached Indians ride into his camp, then he appears in clean riding kit and addresses the largest, noblest appearing Native American ahorse, and is a few lines into his welcoming self-aggrandizing speech when Annie Oakley yells "High Chief!" at a smaller, younger, less noble looking 'savage' who smiles back at her and Bill has to make shift to save his shallow image. Cute scene. There is also Burt Lancaster as the yellow paper journalist and dime novelist who generated the Buffalo Bill image.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: meself
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 11:07 PM

Whoops! Forgot to do the blue clicky.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Monique
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 03:38 AM

The Wild West Show toured in Europe many times, some photos here. The first site I linked to in my previous post says "Its seems that the first 'Indianistes' appeared in France after Buffalo Bill's circus came and aroused a lively interest. Then a new literature about the Indians and the Far West spread and sprang up" -I suppose it's "spread" first because what already existed was first spread before some people began to write about the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 09:48 AM

I don't understand the relevance of the question to what is to follow, therefore I'm not answering until you either establish a pertinency or choose to divulge information your ownself.

Relevence is I wouldn't expect anyone who couldn't answer the first two questions in the affirmative to be able to accurately supply the information requested.

But you cleared that up - thanks.

I think it was considered valuable experience more for the participants...

How so? I'd be interested in what the Participants got out of it.

Aside:

Now why, I wonder, does Ron - our in-house "simple seeker after truth"- feel compelled to explain things for you? I'd have thought you perectly capable of comprehending things without his "help" and capable of speaking for yourself as well.

Guess some folks simply need to stick their noses in where not needed or wanted.

But I digress...

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 10:35 PM

Greg:

I confess I did not participate in the actual Civil War. You will have to be more specific as to your preferences/ requirements to be a re-enactor.

The groups I stumbled upon were very interesting and led to a great experience I would cheerfully repeat, from sleeping in a canvas tent on hay to loading and firing a weapon of the period.

I also got some nifty color photos of the Civil War period to amuse and amaze my friends with.

It all happened in the midst of a motorcycle trip I was taking specifically to visit Civil War battlefields and parks, so from my point of view it was a lovely blended experience, mixed in with motorcycle maintenance, and just enough zen.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 10:52 PM

....your preferences/ requirements to be a re-enactor...

Hunh? My what?? Where did THIS come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:00 PM

Monique,
That's a kind of neat link. There were quite a few pictures I've never seen before..and interesting to read.
Looking at it drove me to see what wiki says about Buffalo Bill where I found much more information than I expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Monique
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:52 AM

There are some more photos here. You can see three videos of that time (they're bad quality but they're more than 100 years old!). In Disney village (Paris) they still perform a Wild West Show.
Here is a blog post where the guy talks about his passion about Indian culture in which he says "Kid's dream? Exotic nostalgia of a lost paradise? Influence from Hollywood movies?"... "We're not and will never be Indians, we just try to approach, to understand their traditional culture, we try to pass down the love for the Amerindian culture by telling tales to the children... and to the adults."
I feel there's something of "Paradise Lost" in these people's minds -whether it actually was Paradise or not is quite another story. Btw, in France "Indien" is just like "French" or "English" or "German" and if we say "Amérindien" it's not to mistake them for India Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Melissa
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 05:46 AM

Whether it was intentional or not, I think the Wild West show helped make sure there was a greater interest in "Indian" stuff, which resulted in more archives and general knowledge being preserved (albeit inappropriately by white hands)..which probably meant the Natives were able to sort of reconstruct more of their dignity, history, stories and such--a lot of which would have been lost to them during the generations when their children were being taken away for 'white schooling' and everything that seemed like the people were resisting being 'civilized' was either forbidden or strongly discouraged.

As re-enactment, I don't see any way of doing a Wild West show that wouldn't be potentially embarrassing or humiliating to any Native Americans in the audience and would leave an inaccurate impression of the era in most minds. That's why I don't care for that type of show now.
When it was really going on, I'm not convinced it was an entirely bad thing..but time and distance change things and I'm not sure our modern eyes could stretch our minds into seeing it any differently than we see a joust at a renfest.
We see Entertainment now..not Experiences.

I'm surprised that I'm ending up learning about Cody's shows. I like the pictures and finding out more about the historic era--whether it's objectionable or not.
I am looking forward to taking the time to watch the film clips.

Is (Paris) Disney Village as plastic-creepy as (US) Disney World?
(unrelated to the main topic, but a tidbit..Walt Disney is from my home state)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: bankley
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:11 AM

Canada's greatest 'Indian' impersonator was Grey Owl aka Archibald Belany from England..... he was a skilled woodsman and trapper, became a famous author and environmental champion during the 1930s..It was only after he died that his real identity became public knowledge.. he was the most 'popular' Indian in the world for a couple of years during the great depression....

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:10 AM

Big Chief I-Spy & Hawkeye here http://www.twoatlarge.com/ralph/rmisc/spy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:46 AM

Stamp collecting is a hobby. A race of people are not, and making them one is condescending, paternalistic & - you should excuse the word- racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:50 AM

There's only one race - the human race!!

Subject: RE: BS: Indian Re-Creation Camps in Germany
From: meself
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:58 AM

What's the Indy 500 - a walk in the park?