BS: The BNP conundrum

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:32 PM

"I see claims that over 9 million people living in the United Kingdom are foreign-born if you include the children they produced. That is 15%, not 5% as mentioned above. When they concentrate in their own neighborhoods and continue to speak their native languages, they are not really very "British"."

First - Where do you see these claims? can you provide a link or is this a figment of your imagination?

Second - "When they concentrate in their own neighborhoods and continue to speak their native languages, they are not really very "British""

As I have posted here before, I lived in the Indian/south Asian ghetto of highfields in Leicester for a year and a half.

The myths propagated about areas like this by people who never go into those areas except to pass through them have very little in common with the facts.

British youth of Asian origin in Leicester talk English with strong Leicester accents and participate fully with society as a whole.

There are many other assumptions in PDQ's generalization above that I would love to challenge but I am utterly exhausted at the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:35 PM

"Among major nations, England comes third in density after Bangla Desh and South Korea."

What????


On which planet?????


Such an absurd claim requires no repudiation.


You remind me of the Pirates in "Asterix" books - desperately scuttling your own ship.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:36 PM

The BNP is indeed clever in capitalizing on legitimate fears about immigration.

Those fears are NOT legitimate, and you repeating yourself doesn't make them so.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:36 PM

Lox try phoning the office of National Statidtic in the morning, they maybe able to enlighten you

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:36 PM

I live close to the N Wales border - just a few miles away whole communities continue to speak their native language :)

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:38 PM

Emma, Britain is full of surprises like that, it's what make us, us:)

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: pdq
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:39 PM

The United Kingdom has a population density roughly the same as Japan or South Korea. It ranks about 10th to 12th among countries with 10 million people or more.

If the people of the UK feel their lives are being adversly affected by the population exposion, they have every right to try to correct the problem and do it now.

Once all of your farmland is under houses it's too late.

Population density is correlated to crime and violence as well as general "quality of life" considerations.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:40 PM

Butter and cheese,

I grew up in Hong Kong.

I understand what the term "population density" really means.

Compared to HK, London feels positively rural.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:41 PM

Your source, pdq, is......

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Royston
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:47 PM

Butter and Cheese

I have quoted my source. The table is linked to UN data from here

http://esa.un.org/unpp

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Royston
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:51 PM

...Whereas Keith has nothing but his own imagination to back him up.

Keith hasn't quoted a source so how do you know where he gets his fantasies from? I keep asking him to enlighten us but rarely get any answers.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: pdq
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:54 PM

If you use the active link from a few posts back, you need only eliminate the countries under 10 million population. They may big large but not equal to the UK or Germany. To get the "52nd" rankig used by one poster, you would have to accept Monaco and Macau as major world powers.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:59 PM

"you would have to accept Monaco and Macau as major world powers."

I don't see the relevance of whether they are major powers or not?

Exactly how many qualifications and exceptions do we need to go through to whittle the list down so that we finally prove that the UK is the most densely populated place on the planet?

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:07 PM

On the subject of Jack Straw,

I am also disappointed at this.

I believe he is too aggressive a debater to deal properly with the BNP.

I believe the best way to show them up is to be patient, give them a big coil of rope and then gently encourage them to hang themselves with it.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:10 PM

Population density is population density, doesn't matter a fig if the country or what have you is a world power or no

The simple fact is, is the UK as a whole is way down on the list of population density. So this current level of immigration is unprecedented in our history line is to put it simply BS, a scremongering tactic exploited by the BNP and the like.

Royston I know you quoted your source, pdq didn't and still hasn't

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: pdq
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:42 PM

Mine is the same source, I just skipped countries with less than 10 million population. How many people are crowded into Andorra doesn't mean a fig to most UKers.

The point is simple: the decision as to how many people should be allowed it any country belongs to the people of that country. Same with a recent thread where the subject of Iceland's whaling came up. Basically, it is the business of that country's citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:55 PM

pdq while I don't want to stray too far from the subject of this thread I can't accept your last analogy.
The migratory endangered denizens of the oceans are not simply the 'property' of one single nation to slaughter at will not only in my opinion but in the opinion of many world organizations too.

now back to the thread......

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:00 PM

One problem is that the league tables on this kind of thing don't tend to include England, sionce it isn't an independent country.

However, anyone whomever gets out of the major cities will have to admit that England has a lot of countryside without that many people living there.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: GUEST,Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:00 PM

Member Keith seems to be the only one making any sense on this thread. Because the guy spoke the truth the pack here turned on him. Well done Joe. Please hit these Bnp threads on the head. Big big turn off.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:26 PM

Thanks Emma...oh and GUEST,Roger in Sheffield , please don't dictate what we should or should not be talking about. I merely verified the sources that Kieth was using for his figures

and pdq let me extend that to most UKers don't give a fig what goes on outside their own towns never mind outside the country, which is rather sad...so very blinkered and parochial

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: GUEST,Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:44 PM

BaC, Most BNP voters are working class city dwellers.
Far from being fascists, their background is the labour movement.
Their problem is that the current, unprecedented influx of immigrants are here in Britain to cream off Social Security hand-outs.
Basic services have not been provided for this flood of people.
The existing population find fewer job opportunities, and wages driven down.
TRUE British people have lost a sense of belonging in the places they grew up in.
Their is no social housing availble for them and rents are driven up.
Medical services are overwhelmed and the schools grossly overcrowded with English a minority language.
They are not fascist thugs, THEY ARE BRITISH.
The major parties just call their legitimate concerns "racism."

When the issue of the great BNP successes was debated on Question Time, immigration was the elephant in the room.
The only panallist who tried to raise the issue was an economist.
The three politicians and the trade unionist just changed the subject and carried on talking about electoral reform, vile fascists etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:48 PM

Thanks roger,

We've actually had that exact cut and paste job already on a different thread.

I guesss it isn't your turn with the brain cell tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:50 PM

Roger is a 'new' guest whose attitudes and speech patterns are strangely familiar from previous incarnations.

I had hoped that discussion amongst members, however diverse and conflicting our opinions, might have continued a little longer without mudcat's resident 'troll'

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:55 PM

Oh and by the way Roger (sam ... helen ... whatever ...),

if you do intend to try and pass yourself off as a new guest, at least try to disguise your writing style a little.

Though I will say thanks for making me laugh.

This is why the BNP has spent the previous 30 years as a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:26 PM

Guest Roger, I'm new to this, but even I found the original of that post while looking for something else.....I found the original to be pathetic and a bit sad, your's doesn't change my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:33 PM

thanks for the link em, i understand that we have deportations now, but what i would like to know is if and when a migrant or assylum seeker breaks are laws, some of which even i have distain for, why do we still pay for their prison stay?
i mean if we want to save money why not just deport them straight after trial? of course this might lead to failiures to ensure justice.

i can see why alot of people speaking a foriegn langauge would want to live close to each other, saftey in numbers, easy communication, shared values.
however what does annoy me is when someone (any nationality) lives in a country long enough to have brought up kids still cannot understand the native langauge of that country, or at least not seem to be making an effort.


i am really sad to see yet another thread be brought down by people who do not wish to disscuss things but want to argue that they know best.
come on, isn't this what we are trying to get past?
should we be trying to out the 'facts' as everyone knows them and to actually expand on knowledge and truth?

i don't mind starting by saying that i thought i was very open minded...until i came on here and discovered alot of the things i thought i knew about immigration and facism, were completely false.
i have learnt alot by reading informative posts that have been written with as little emotion as possible.
i have discovered things about myself that i am unhappy with.

when unsecure people discover this, they stick their heads in the sand and will argue until the ending of the world.
being secure enough to say, i was wrong, you have changed my mind..thankyou, is much more freeing.

so, i cannot name you all, but thanks for educating me in a way that i don't find boring or patronising.


take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: GUEST,Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:34 PM

I quoted the words of a member who can tie any of you lot in bloody knots, and he's British !

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:57 PM

no, Roger the Dodger, you cut and pasted your own words from on thread to another, showing a complete lack of originality, which is the hallmark of the BNP....and British? a traitor to Britain is more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 09:06 PM

remember

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 09:08 PM

Just putting him in his place, the little snot...now he is forgotten

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 10:32 PM

I've heard racism describe as America's "original sin," and I think there's truth in that. Once upon a time, I thought that America was racist, and the rest of the world not so much so.

Then I lived in Berlin in 1972-73, and I found that Berliners hated the southern Europeans they called "Turks" (no matter what country they came from), and they worried about the "Turks" taking jobs from taxpaying Germans - although the southern Europeans did jobs that native Berliners didn't want to do, I guess I could understand German workers worrying about losing jobs in a recession while "Turks" were still employed. Much of the attitude about "Turks" was racism, but part was a legitimate worry about instability of employment that may (or may not) have been caused by immigrants.

I went to England in 2002, and I always had thought that England was the home of noble, liberal thinking. My preconceptions were shattered from the moment I arrived at Heathrow and found that a good number of the immigration and customs officials were foreign-born, just like in the United States. I found that London was the most ethnically diverse city I have ever encountered. But all was not well - I found working-class, UK-born Londoners who were resentful of the presence of foreigners. Part of their response was indeed racist, and part was legitimate worry about the threat to their employment in hard times.

So, the BNP has capitalized on these legitimate fears (which are admittedly laced with racism). The talk show hosts in the US capitalize on the same fears (which are also laced with racism). Because the BNP and the US talk show hosts are fascist, we liberals tend to discount the fears (and the racism) of the masses, and that's a dangerous thing. Like it or not, we liberals are guilty of elitism, because we have failed to listen to the concerns of the working people. As a result, the fascists have found our Achilles heel.

We'd better take heed.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 11:32 PM

Ignorance is voluntary, not in any way admirable or to be pandered to.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 11:32 PM

i couldn't agree with you more joe. we have forgotten how to listen to each other, no matter what class we are in.

we think of ourselves in catagories, us and them.
us, we think and feel one way, them don't think or feel anything about us at all.
so many issues affect us all, no matter what we have or what we were born into.
why is it so hard to imagine that others have the same needs and wants as we do?
joe i am sorry if you had a hard time in the UK, i assume you came as a tourist? why should any person visitor or migrant, feel unwanted unless they have behaved in a way that caused offence?

i hated it when we felt like that and we were only in wales. let alone if i had spent a huge amount of money and travelling time getting to somewhere that i thought would be great fun and welcoming.

onto the subject of people feeling threatened by migrant workers, are they being paid less? so the bosses want to employ them first to save on costs?

i can't rememebr who and i am too damn lazy to find out, made a good point about the worlds companies can relocate to any country where the overheads are cheaper, and people complain when they cannot follow the work.
i have said it before but it is not the workers fault that they are working (if this is true) for less than the locals would, because i assume that even though it is less to us, it is obviously more money to them.
why blame them? it is easier to blame and intimidate them than it is to tackle the real culprits.. the bosses... the government.. the EU.

so maybe before we shout about the wages or that we think migrants are nicking the jobs and undercutting the local workforce, maybe we should try to see the bigger picture?
they are simply people trying to improve their lot in life.

how many of us when buying a new car go for one step up from what we had?
it is the same thing just a bigger scale.
i understand the fear, especially when you live in one of the high immigrant areas, that this country is being taken over, and that you are slowly being pushed out, again you have to look at the bigger picture.

ok i am giong before i reapeat myself too much and end up confusing my poor tiny brain.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 11:49 PM

People are afraid of losing their jobs and homes and personal safety, Richard. Those fears may be irrational and unfounded, but they need to be answered nonetheless. If you are unwilling to give a sympathetic answer, don't blame the "unwashed masses" for listening to the BNP.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:05 AM

Royston, can you not challenge me without being abusive?
Am I not always polite to you?
You describe me as "talking shit" and my posts as "fantasies" from my "imagination."
This response is what I said at the start would keep me and others away.
Foolishly, I thought it safe to make simple statements of fact, but no.

You challenged me on two statements.
One was that current levels of immigration are unprecedented in our country's history.
I note that you have dropped that challenge.
I was right and you wrong.
An acknowledgement would be nice.
(I would say that your ignorance of such a fundamental fact undermines your credibility on this subject)

The second was that England is about (meaning near to being) the most densely populated nation on Earth.
This (impeccable) source gives the density for England as 398 per square km last year, and increasing.http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090720/text/90720w0078.htm

Unless you can list a large number of comparable countries ahead of us,(I have already given Bangla Desh and S.Korea), then my statement stands as a reasonable description of the hard evidence.
No shit.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:30 AM

'Sam Hudson' seems to have reappeared on Facebook, posting more abusive and threatening messages. I've reported and blocked him/her there, but it's a shame the same can't be done here - if there is anything posted on livejournal about Keith I very much doubt that it comes from the people SamH claims.
Personally I think immigration is a legitimate concern for anyone, but because of the way it has been hijacked by neo-Nazi parties, the facts are crucial. People vote BNP because of a perception rather than any hard evidence or tested policy, and they need to be swayed by irrefutable evidence.
As Joe says, people are afraid for their jobs and their physical safety. Yes, we know those fears are misplaced, but it does the voice of reason no favours if anyone merely mentioning them is met with abuse and allegations of dishonesty. Keith is not a racist or a fascist - he is merely articulating what I imagine a huge number of people in Britain feel. If that is simply shouted down and written off as racism or ignorance then the battle against the BNP is probably lost.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:36 AM

And those will of course be a fake Royston and a fake ButterandCheese on LiveJournal - just as SamH (then a member, but who now appears to have dropped his cookie) threatened to me by PM.

Is it any wonder that people cannot and will not take the BNP and its supporters seriously when that is the way they conduct themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:36 AM

I've just heard on the news today that Fuehrer Griffin had admitted that his loathsome little party's future is in jeopardy as a result of the opposition that has been generated following their EU election wins. So well done everyone - looks like we're winning the battle against these fasists.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:50 AM

Keith: even if immigration were a net disbenefit to the UK (which I would deny) the BNP's policies on it are based on racial discrimination, pure and simple.

Look at the list of places from which Griffin proposed to ban all future immigration. Have any of them got a substantial white population (other than an invading oppressor order)?

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:59 AM

The good news - even from the far-right "Times"

Although to be fair I suppose the Times would oppose the BNP since the BNP if elected and if doing as promised would impose "British values" on the Times against its foreign owner, and since the dirigiste economic proposals of the BNP would be contrary to Murdoch's wholly laissez-faire wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:03 AM

"Sam H" - you are not welcome to post at Mudcat because you have posted under a number of identities. If you can't be honest about who you are, we don't want to hear from you at all.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:04 AM

Richard, why on earth do you assume that I am in any way supporting BNP policies???????????

Re Sam, I ignored his shit for the shit it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:05 AM

Blimey Joe, you are up early today!

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:34 AM

For the most part this is an excellent thread - thank you, Emma.

I posted in a previous BNP thread that I was thinking of discarding my Croes Celtaidd, as these are advertised for sale on the BNP marketing site. (I haven't - just got a shorter chain so the Croes Celtaidd is more evident than previously).

To hear that statues of Owain Glyn Dwr are being dished out defies belief.

I am glad that the BNP is to appear on the gawping-box. Perhaps the oxygen of publicity will be another nail in its coffin.

I too read in today's "Times" that the BNP is on the bones of its arse. Long may this continue.

Love to all from Erica and Bryn

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Royston
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:36 AM

Keith,

I haven't dropped the challenge on "unprecedented". You are ignoring it. I have asked you to provide evidence that supports your "unprecedented" statement. I can find no evidence. You need to prove your statements, not me.

I actually over-estimated you, believe it or not. I thought that you had the sense to compare like with like figures but I was even wrong about that.

You take the density for England, which is not a "state" or politically organised "country" and you start to compare it with other whole countries. And you wonder why you piss me off?

England, as a region of the UK, contains some major conurbations - London, Midlands, Manchester/Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford - think of them as the "greater" areas of those cities. FFS, over 10% of the UK population lives in Greater London alone. I have to go to work now but for starters I went HERE and found that about 11,000,000 live in the conurbations. That's a heck of a lot of people and it makes the rest of the land-mass pretty bloody empty, you fool.

If you want to look at regions then, taking your fatuous French comparison, you should compare the "England" figure with, say, five French arondissements that include the cities Paris, Marseille, Lyons, Toulouse and Nice.

Your claims are unproven. Your use of figures amounts to lying.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:44 AM

The reason, Keith, is that I have not yet seen any significant distinction between your views on immigration and those of the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:55 AM

Richard, that is an outrageous slur.
I challenge and defy you to find any post of mine to justify that insult.

Royston, you have now called me fool and liar.
I posted about England. My post was accurate.Your reply is digusting.

And you still deny that current immigration levels are unprecedented?
That IS foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:08 AM

Royston, this article gives all the ONS statistics to support the headline "Record Immigration sees UK poulation soar."
"Record" in this context means unprecedented.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567068/Record-immigration-sees-UK-population-soar.html

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:25 AM

Royston, I thought you might be interested in this headline.
England is most crowded country in Europe
England has become the most crowded major nation in Europe, official figures have revealed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

Subject: RE: BS: The BNP conundrum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:26 AM

Guest Sam H - go back and read my post and you will see how. Perhaps I should copy your PMs (if you are the same Sam H) over here. I had done you the courtesy of treating your PMs as not for entire copying, but I am content to abandon that (and reserve the right to do so if necessary).