BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK

Subject: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:21 PM

I have just seen this on the BBC News, which if to be believed IMHO just beggars belief.

Childcare help 'could be illegal'

Parents can find it difficult to get childcare
Parents in England who regularly look after friends' children and receive a "reward" for doing so must register as childminders, regulator Ofsted says.

It said most parents would be exempted but those who babysit for more than two hours at a time, or more than 14 days per year, should be registered.

The "reward" could be money or free baby-sitting in return, it said.

It comes after Ofsted told two police women to end an arrangement to care for each other's children.

According to the Mail on Sunday, Ofsted told two detective constables, Leanne Shepherd, from Milton Keynes, and Lucy Jarrett, from Buckingham, to end their arrangement.

Ms Shepherd told the newspaper: "When the Ofsted inspector turned up, the first thing she said was: 'I have had a report that you're running an illegal childminding business'.

"I straightaway thought she must be mistaken, so invited her into my home to explain we were police officers and best friends helping each other out.

"But she told me I was breaking the law and must end the arrangement with Lucy immediately. I was stunned, completely devastated... I couldn't see how I could continue working."

Petition started

According to the article, the Thames Valley officer is believed to have been reported by a neighbour.

An Ofsted spokesman said it applies regulations found in the 2006 Childcare Act, but was currently discussing the interpretation of the word "reward" with the department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF).

"Reward is not just a case of money changing hands. The supply of services or goods and in some circumstances reciprocal arrangements can also constitute reward," he said.

"Generally" mothers who look after each other's children are not providing childminding for which registration is required because the care is for less than two hours or takes place on less than 14 days in a year, he said.

Close relatives of the child such as grandparents, siblings, aunts or uncles are exempt from the rules, he added.

A petition to scrap the rules governing reciprocal child care on the Number 10 website has gathered more than 2,000 signatures.

Anyone required to register to become a childminder would also have to undergo a criminal records check.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8277378.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:26 PM

My child's friends played at our house and he played at their houses. I suppose that may be considered "minding", but it was really just normal life of childhood playmates. What a stupid ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:29 PM

Jobsworth strikes again.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:36 PM

Pity with all their child friendly regulations that they can't stop the Baby P's, Victoria Kalimbié's, and all the other children who have come to grief through improper parenting.
They've been changing the rules since Maria Caldwell and earlier, but nothing really changes.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 01:24 PM

There are over 80,000 registered childminders in England alone.

A childminder is paid to look after a child in THEIR home - not yours.

what are the current regulations?

The 1989 Children's Act states that anyone who is paid to look after a child under eight for more than two hours a day in their home must be registered with the local authorities. (This does not include close relatives, aunts, grandparents etc.)

The Children's Act allows a childminder to look after no more than three children under five with only one of those children being under a year.
If the children are older a childminder can look after a total of six children under eight, as long as no more than three are under five years old. This figure includes the carer's own child or children. The local authority has a right to set a limit to the number of minded children over the age of eight.

Childminders do not have to be trained in childcare but all newly registered childminders have to have a First Aid qualification and to undergo a six week "Introducing Childminding Practice" course which they gain a certificate for.

Childminders are now inspected by Ofsted.
This happened on the 1st September 2001 when the Early Years Directorate of OFSTED, the Office for Standards in Education, took over responsibility for the registration and inspection of childminders in England.

Ofsted is now responsible for:

inspecting potential childminders
registering childminders
carrying out regular inspections after registration

The childminder has to be interviewed by social services to check their home is safe, secure, warm, clean and has suitable equipment such as fireguards and stair gates.
Anyone over the age of sixteen living with them will be interviewed with regards to health, and whether they have been involved with any form of violence, or child or drug abuse.

These regulations are designed to protect young children CARED FOR (this would not normally be seen as the usual playing at a friends house) by someone who is not a close relative away from their own home.
In the case in question it involved a regular 2 day 10 hour shift over a two-and-a-half year period

The difficulty in the case (as reported by The Mail) seems to revolve around the interpretation of what constitutes 'payment'
Apparently under existing legislation reward is not just a case of money changing hands. The supply of services or goods and in some circumstances reciprocal arrangements can also constitute reward.

Although it sounds as the initial visit may have been an over reaction, if a 'concerned' neighbour lodges a complaint and information of 'illegal' childminding (as reported happened in this case) it's hard to see how Ofsted had any other duty than to investigate.

             Damned if you do - damned if you don't!

An Ofsted spokesman said it applied regulations found in the 2006 Childcare Act, but was currently discussing the interpretation of the word "reward" with the department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF) to see if a redefinition was possible to cover this reciprocal type of arrangement

Let's not lose sight of the word 'could' in the original title and away from emotive headlines like 'branded!'

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 01:52 PM

For a while, I was registered as a home day care provider, which required CPR and first aid training, home inspection, nutritional meal and snack guidelines, and being registered in my county. That was for taking care of strangers' kids for payment. This case as described is between two friends. Sounds like neighbors being busy-bodies to cause an inspection.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 02:30 PM

or maybe by a care provider!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 02:36 PM

I knew someone on Dartmoor who was a childminder...er...she used to beat her son with a belt...?

Still, she made lots of money from looking after other people's kids, and that's what it's all about, innit. (not)

WHY would you want a complete stranger to look after your child, all day long? It's always puzzled me.

Of course The State want ALL people who care for any other child, other than their own, to be registered, one day, of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

They're also making it more and more difficult to home-educate (no surprises there then)...and of course, every single child in the country is now on a registar from birth to 18, to which police, teachers, social workers and medical staff have instant access....PARENTS have no access to this at all. Any child considered 'at risk' has a flag by their name. My son does. Why? Because he's home-educated....and ALL home-educated children are now considered 'at risk'.

This register was brought in following Victoria Climbe's death, and very few people know of its existence.

We live in a State Controlled Society with a Minister for Children, and the sooner the British People wake up to this highly disturbing Orwellian Government, the better.

They have infiltrated into the lives of everyone, monitoring us at every opportunity.

Humans are the new Industry of this country. Monitoring them, bringing in new laws etc..creates loadsa jobs...to hell with our freedom, they don't give a sod about that part.

We all need to take to the streets with banners proclaiming, "Hey, New Labour, FUCK OFF out of our lives!" as soon as we can, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 03:27 PM

I can see why a government would try to ensure that all children being cared for by those-for-hire are safe.

In the US, there are laws regulating how many children per careminder in any given hour are legal. The number depends also on age and child's mobility- i.e. infants, requiring more care, must have a smaller ratio of childcare givers. Up to five preschool children per household is the usual standard, but if that number includes an infant, the number drops.

All of this I can see.

But regulations regarding reciprocal caring of a friend's children I don't see at all. True, if my friend had 8 children, including an infant and a toddler, I'd be most hesitant!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 04:19 PM

I'd have more respect for a Government that wanted to ensure that mothers didn't have to leave their children with complete strangers, purely so they can earn enough to feed their family and pay the bills.

I'd have more respect for a Government that brought back Motherhood, rather than State Controlled Parenting.

Children need Mothers and Fathers, not 'Minders' and until we wake up to that fact, as a species we are just going to continue to go down, down, deeper and down........

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:26 PM

Ofsted was simply following through the legislation as it is currently worded.
Apparently this informal arrangement has carried on without any problems for over 2 years but once reported (and it does beg the question why?) there seems no alternative reaction until such time as the legislation is revised to include such arrangements.

The petition seems a sensible response good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lox
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:50 PM

I've just seen this on the BBC site and my jaw hit the floor.

What a load of utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:06 PM

DCSF

Sounds about right for the Department of Cretins and Stupid Fucks

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:53 PM

We all need to take to the streets with banners proclaiming, "Hey, New Labour, FUCK OFF out of our lives!" as soon as we can, in my opinion.

Great idea Lizzie. What a bundle of energy you are.

A folk festival being organised here, a march and protest there, banner making here, local folk radio show there.

Or is that it? A message on a message board?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:43 PM

Lizzie, I presume you are referring to the Badman reoport which is, as it says, a report not legislation!

The Badman Report, published earlier this year, suggests the compulsory regulation of home-education — an area of life where, previously, there had been no regulation at all!

"In fact no one knows how many children are educated at home, though estimates suggest that there are 50,000-80,000 of them.
What is not in doubt is that home-educating parents know their rights and are determined to preserve them.

Until this summer's government report by Graham Badman, this meant that they could educate at home with impunity, unhampered by officialdom.
They didn't need to tell anyone they were doing it, or how they were doing it.
When asked what they teach, the standard line is that this is dictated by the child and that being unconfined by a curriculum is both flexible and inspiring

Badman recommends compulsory registration for home educators with the local authority (about 20,000 children are registered at present) and that parents specify their educational plans for their child a year ahead.
Local authorities should provide access to the national examination system and sports facilities, and representatives who have been suitably trained should be able to visit homes where children are being educated."

From the Times earlier this month

The report's aim aim is to ensure the wellbeing of children and to protect the small number who have suffered harm by being under the radar of the front line of child services.

An article in the Guardian at the time the report was published

'Badman said: "I have sought in this report to balance the rights of children with the rights of parents" and "there needed to be a further review to determine the minimum standards of education that parents should provide"

In addition Graham Badman, the child protection expert who led the review, said they had found strong evidence that child protection concerns are more common among home-educating families.
A small number of serious case reviews, ordered in more extreme cases of child abuse, were where the children had been home-educated and 'out of sight'

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 01:35 AM

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/reciprocalcc/

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 01:47 AM

Big Brother never just watches you..... Big Brother controls!!!! Things are getting and will get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:05 AM

Absolutely, but Big Brother watches us too, to ensure that we live our lives in the way they have dictacted.

New Labour is about dictating to us how we live our lives. Never before, in the history of this country have we been so controlled. Never have we had a culture where people are encouraged to spy on each other, then to report to 'the powers that be'.

We have raised a whole generation, in fact two, I feel, that sees nothing wrong with this at all. And that scares the beejayzus out of me.

Yes, Emma. But if New Labour get in again (Heaven help us all!) then you watch that *become* legislation!

At present I do not have to teach to the f**king National Curriculum, thank God! And who the hell invented that anyway????? It started in the USA and over there the kids have now reached the point of killing each other, so controlled and stressed out are they! It's only a matter of time before the kids over here implode likewise...and let's face it, they're already carrying knives to school to protect themselves.

Going back to the dreaded Child Minders (what a chilling phrase that is!)...yes, you won't be able to even look after your friend's child for more than two hours, without being registered, especially if they dare to buy you a box of choccies or flowers for being so kind to do so, because then, you'll be getting 'paid'....

This Government is NOT a government at all, it's just a collection of raving lunatics who've somehow all managed to find each other at the same time!

'Blair's Babes' as the female politicians he chose, were called...are deteremined to make all other women become 'career women' like themselves...and to make them put their children into the state system, as I've no doubt most of Blair's Babes do too.

Well f*** that for a game of soldiers! I already HAVE a full time CAREER and it's called MOTHERHOOD...and if I want and choose to look after my friends children, for an hour, a day or a week, then it's nobody's business but mine and my friends.

These Control Freaks have used a sledgehammer to crack a nut in everything.

We are not ALL terrorists, all paedeophiles, all money launderers, all illegal immigrants...but because they can't, and won't, deal severely with those who are, because 'hey, they have their rights' we ALL have to suffer because of it.

We have become a country of weak, lily-livered, snivelling cowards, who back away from confrontation and who silence those who ARE confrontational. We have Given In!

The BBC told me that I was NOT to talk about social issues on their boards because...it upset people. ??????????????

Good!

Because...it's about time the whole bloody country got upset, BIGTIME!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:09 AM

Great.

When's the march with the banners? Where is it to take place? It really was your idea Lizzie and I am happy to support it. I bet I could get a minimum of a coach load of people from Shffield.

Let's get going - this is a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: sian, west wales
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:59 AM

The police check thing is quickly becoming a plague.

I agree that home schooling should be somehow registered and monitored but no way that should automatically require putting kids on the risk register.

I also agree that youth workers, paid or unpaid, should have some level of check, but that should not be draconian, difficult to undertake, or expensive.

My current problem is organizing a 3 day music 'camp'. I'd like it to be intergenerational. Heck - our National Assembly even has a 'policy' to encourage intergenerational, community activity. I can't offer it, though. Yes, I can check the tutors and workers BUT apparently the Powers That Be are also suggesting I have to check everyone on the course who is over 16 years old. Honest. They've also tried to take this line with the National Youth Choir, Orchestra, Brass Band, Wind Band, etc. When pushed by their organizers, the Children's Commissioner has gone quiet, but not withdrawn the opinion.

I really think we have to challenge this, sooner rather than later. What are we telling young people? That a) everyone over 16 is potentially a pervert so don't trust ANYONE and b) that when they turn 17 they too will be a potential pervert.

We're also always told that a high percentage of child abuse is inflicted by close family or friends so how does this legislation help? Other high profile cases would never have happened if the existing law had been properly applied; stacking up laws upon laws won't solve any problems if the real problem is resources to enforce the basics.

The government is moving us towards full-blown identity cards with every aspect of our lives needing specific approval. Possibly even full checks before you can even be parents? There was a time when ID cards didn't worry me too much, but I understand the protest now.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 06:13 AM

"I agree that home schooling should be somehow registered and monitored but no way that should automatically require putting kids on the risk register."

IT DOESN'T - a simple truth I'm afraid

even the staunchest advocates of home teaching remaining completely unmonitored do not promulgate this almost wiful misunderstanding!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 06:48 AM

Personally, I think this smacks of over-drafting from your friendly cabinet-office barristers.
The same firm that brought you the Licencing Act (which threatened to make Morris-Dancing illegal) and the Sexual Offences Act (which promised incarceration for fourteen year olds found snogging in the back row).
The real problem is that UK bills are now drafted to cover every eventuality, be totally waterproof and utterly unchallengeable. Sadly life doesn't fit easily with this approach.
Perhaps what we need is a law requiring the drafters to get out more. They could possibly take DCMS and OFSTED with them. How about an office outing to Whitby as a start?

Have to stop rambling and go now as am late for a meeting of the Paedophile Terrorist Association Money-Laundering Sub-Committee ....

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:47 AM

"I agree that home schooling should be somehow registered and monitored but no way that should automatically require putting kids on the risk register."

IT DOESN'T - a simple truth I'm afraid

even the staunchest advocates of home teaching remaining completely unmonitored do not promulgate this almost wiful misunderstanding! <<<


For your information, we Home Ed'ers are NOT child molestors! Unlike the headmaster of a SCHOOL in North Devon, who's still serving time for paedeophilia offences!

Yeesh!

How bloody patronising is that remark! There is NO reason why home-schooled kids need to be 'monitored'....other than they think OUTSIDE the box, and do NOT fit into the Conveyer Belt of Life and Loopy Thinking, where ALL parents are regarded as a danger to their children!

Double Yeesh!

My kids, unlike many these days, are polite, courteous, deeply intelligent, kind, welcoming, and will talk to all people of all ages from all backgrounds, with equal respect.

They could run rings around most bloody awful teachers, who do little for kids other than make them feel inferior and stupid...and I'm NOT talking about the few good teachers who are still in the system, determined not to give in to the appalling pressures they're under.

School is crap, for many, many children.

Tell you what, Emma...let's start monitoring ALL parents, shall we....because, hell, as a Home Educating Parent how the heck do I know if YOU are looking after YOUR children correctly?

Insulting, huh?

Yeah...well that's what you've just done to me, and to all other home educating parents.

For your information, we get *nothing*...our kids can't even get to take exams free of charge. It's hard, home-educating, because you're left alone, ENTIRELY alone, other than to be 'checked up on' once a year. The highest mark the Patronising Education Bastards will EVER give you, is 'satisfactory' because hey, we can't have the truth leaking out, that home ed kids are so often far more interesting, interested, free-thinking and free-spirited than the Factory Farm Kids at the local comp...

So yes, that's insulting too isn't it....but that's what WE have to put up with all the time...

"Oh, HOW do you *socialise* them?" the Crazy Ones say....backing away, keeping *their* kids far away, in case, God Forbid, little johnny 'catches' the Home Ed bug too, and they may actually HAVE to stay at home to look after their child.

Do NOT patronize us!

And, for you high fallutin' information, you'll now find employers who actually WANT home educated kids because often they can actually think straight, add 2 and 2 together, don't talk in text speak and have minds that are free to roam, filled with ideas....and they're courteous, hard working and polite too, knowing they have to get on and work hard to support themselves because absolutely no other b*gger's going to do it for them.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT! (as a very dear friend of mine would say)

And apologies for any mistakes here, but I don't have time to double check it all and besides, I am sooooo bloody mad that I think it's best to just post this, as is.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 11:21 AM

>>In addition Graham Badman, the child protection expert who led the review, said they had found strong evidence that child protection concerns are more common among home-educating families.
A small number of serious case reviews, ordered in more extreme cases of child abuse, were where the children had been home-educated and 'out of sight' <<

That is probably a very small % who spoil it for genuine parents who find that the school system is not able to provide the right form of education for their children. Very often special needs children suffer very badly from bullying whilst in mainstream schools and this leaves parents with no other choice but pull them away from such schools.

Likewise schools are so hell bent on results, they very often forget that special needs children also need to learn basic skills to ensure they can survive in life as and when they have to face the big cruel world on their own.

I have often thought of pulling my special needs daughter out of mainstream school and educating at home, because all they are really interested is teaching her weird and wonderful information that may or may not get her through the exams and will make the school look good if she passes, but will fail in society becuase she hasn't got the street cred basic skills to survive in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM

Lizzie do you ever actually bother to read the content of other people's posts or are you too far up in the clouds on your high horse?

What I posted that you find so patronizing was a quote from another member although, in fact, I would agree with her that all home educators should be registered and the education their children received monitored.

However the purpose of my post was to point out that this registration process has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'at risk' register.

Whatever fallacies you seek to print, the simple fact remains that home educators are not now, or under any proposals of the Badman report - should they pass into legislation - routinely placed on an 'at risk' register any more than UK teachers are instructed to educate shildren in anal sex as a form of birth control - an allegation you stated as 'fact' on the forum some time ago.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt to suggest that this was merely a misunderstanding on your part.

Whatever you think of teachers, and I think you have made your very strong and insulting views evident many times, nevertheless they are accountable and subject to rigorous inspection.
I would not expect any less accountability of edcational standards from home teaching.

May I suggest before you make any further inaccurate statements you read the report
Review of Elective Home Education in England

You may note that the report concludes that 'The diverse characteristics of home educated children make it difficult to generalize about their academic performance'
and
'Evidence offered to the enquiry on the propoertion od home educated young people who are not in education, employment or training was inconclusive'

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: sian, west wales
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 12:14 PM

Um - I feel I should offer my own neck up here, as Emma seems to have been named by Lizzie by something I said ... although I put my point badly.

My personal (personal) opinion is that, if kids are educated at home, that should be noted down somewhere. Call that a 'register' if you want. I don't have kids myself and have always assumed that there would be some sort of 'learning landmarks' for kids educated outside the state school system. And that about all I'm saying. I certainly don't want to cause any major thread drift into a debate on home schooling.

My badly made point is, indeed, that parents who home educate should in no way be marked down as potential problems.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 12:40 PM

Thank you Sian, and my point was that they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: GUEST,Bella Brosnan
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:48 PM

What a waste of time and utter nonsense. How can a responsible arrangement between two people regarding childcare be breaking the law? Surely there are far more important and urgent issues regarding lack of child care that should be investigated?

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:07 PM

>>>I gave you the benefit of the doubt to suggest that this was merely a misunderstanding on your part.

How kind of you.

>>>Whatever you think of teachers, and I think you have made your very strong and insulting views evident many times, nevertheless they are accountable and subject to rigorous inspection.<<<<

If you have ever really bothered to read my posts, Emma, you will find, that I have said, over and over again, that I have the utmost respect for BRILLIANT teachers! Ones who inspire their children, who make them feel precious, wanted, needed, intelligent and that they can achieve so very much, if they try hard enough. Ones who do not criticise or belittle, but who know instinctively a child's strong points, their skills....and do all they can to encourage that child.

I have no time for spiteful prats though, who...because they hide behind the title of 'teacher' think they have the God Given Right to humiliate, wound and verbally abuse......


<<
Home Educators are checked one, or twice a year. Once if they're labelled 'satisfactory'....twice if not, more if the EWOs are worried.
Unless your child goes to private school and is withdrawn, in which case, they're not checked up on at all..Hey ho.

My kids, and many other home educated children, usually end up talking the socks of their EWOs..who often delight in coming to see kids who *haven't* been switched off from learning, because they're not *forced* to learn things they have no interest in. What the hell is that all about, forcing kids to learn something they hate? Haven't teachers worked out yet that kids won't learn something they don't want to learn? It's hardly rocket science.

Take up the Home Educators children being marked down as 'at risk' with 'Education Otherwise', Emma. I'm sure they'll be able to help you.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:18 PM

Lizzie "Calm down dear", you will have a heart attack at this rate.

This thread is about childminders not home teaching

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:38 PM

One loophole in the legislation would have been for each mum to move into the other's home for the duration of the shift - it would be perfectly 'legal' to care for a child in their own home.

This law certainly does need revision - thanks for the link to the petition

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 06:50 PM

What I want to know is this.

Which congenital imbecile was given the job of drafting this crap, and how does he/she/it come to the conclusion that, if a colleague and myself decide to swap shifts, take turns in using our cars to get to work, or look after each other's kids for identical periods, either or both of us are somehow reaping a reward.

Case 1. Swapping shifts....I take his eight hour stint today, and he takes mine tomorrow. No cash payment, equal hours worked. No reward
Perfectly legal.

Case 2. Car sharing....His car today, and mine tomorrow. No fuel payments. No reward. Perfectly legal, in fact in some cities special lanes for cars in rush hour carrying more than one person.

Case 3. Child care..... today I look after your kid for eight hours, and tomorrow you look after mine. Same scenario. No reward? Perfectly legal? Well, NO!

Please explain to me WHO GETS A REWARD?

All that changes hands is two kids.

Somebody is overusing the Whacky Weed, and it's time they were stopped.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:05 PM

I sometimes wonder if there isn't a single dopey government policy in the UK that Emma won't rush to defend. Does she work for Labour?

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:19 PM

I'm not defending this legislation, just the opposite.
My personal belief is that this piece of law was every bit as badly drafted as the PEL by legislators out of touch with ordinary life.

However, it IS the law of the country and once a complaint was officially lodged that someone was operating as an illegal child minder under the definition (however flawed) of the act Ofsted had no option other than to act on that complaint.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:46 PM

Lizzie, you are clearly an expert on teaching.

My kids, unlike many these days, are polite, courteous, deeply intelligent, kind, welcoming, and will talk to all people of all ages from all backgrounds, with equal respect. ......They could run rings around most bloody awful teachers, who do little for kids other than make them feel inferior and stupid...and I'm NOT talking about the few good teachers who are still in the system,.......

I wished I could say that about all the people I have taught. I have taught at primary, secondary, tertiary and university level and I have to confess that some of them are criminals and not to mince words some of my students have become guests of Her Majesty.

Incidentally, it may help you to know that professionals say "pupils" and "students" rather than "kids". As a parent you might consider saying "children" rather than "kids".

But as always I bow to your greater knowledge. Young people,(another way of referring to them)at least the hundreds I have taught seem to think "kids" as a bit of a demeaning term. But when it comes to teaching maybe you are right and my 25 years of experience count for nothing compared to your instinct as to how things should be done.

Given your expertise in this area at what age do you think home educators should give up? For instance should home educators should give up educating at home at 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20? And if you feel it should be when the young people themselves are ready - what would you consider indicating factors?

Again, since you have great expertise in this area would you be kind enough to tell us when you stopped home education of your own children and what they did next - college, university, accountancy, McDonalds? No need to go into details but from what you tell us you have clearly had great success in the area of teaching, and it seems to me to be only fair that you share the secrets of your success with the rest of us and enable the res of us to evaluate it what you say.

Perhaps you could get someone you know to give a second opinion? I worked for Birmingham University as a consultant after I retired and they have excellent experts in this area. Do you know any Brummies that might give you a reference? If not I can suggest some people I know who mght be useful who could evaluate your work and spread the word about your success.

Incidentally - I have a number of people wanting to know when the march is taking place We all need to take to the streets with banners proclaiming, "Hey, New Labour, FUCK OFF out of our lives!" as soon as we can, in my opinion and are wondering what has happened?

Shall we cancel the bus?

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:53 PM

The legislation, is certainly complicated.

It says mothers who look after each other's children are generally exempt from the requirement to register as childminders if they provide the service for less than two hours a day or 14 days a year.

If one mother, Mrs A, goes to the house of another, Mrs B, to look after Mrs B's child, she is also exempt because it is considered home care. But if Mrs A took Mrs B's child to her own home, it would be deemed to be offering a childcare service.

The rules also seek to exempt babysitters from having to register by stating that registration is not necessary if the service is provided between the hours of 6pm and 2am.

Sleepovers would be exempt, provided they did not happen at the same address more than 14 times in a year.

If parents take their children to another location for four hours and stay in the vicinity, there is no need for registration. This is designed to protect creches at places such as shopping malls and sports centres.

The Independent outlined some of these complications today

"For instance, if you, as a working mother, ask a friend to look after your child in your own home, she is exempt from having to register as a childminder, according to Ofsted.

If you are working part-time and leave your child for fewer than four hours and "stay in the immediate vicinity", you are also exempt.

The message appears to be: find someone near your place of work to look after your child.

Finally, the legislation appears to protect babysitters by saying they are exempt from registering if they provide a service |between 6pm and 2am. What happens, though, if the parents return from a party at 4am?"


Fortunately as a result of this A spokeswoman for Ofsted said of the situation:
"Ofsted applies the regulations for the registration of childcare as found in the 2006 Childcare Act. We are currently discussing the interpretation of the word 'reward' in the legislation to establish if we might be able to make a change."

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:59 AM

Folkiedave, could I ask you kindly to start a new thread on Home Teaching and have your argument with Lizzie on there please. Same goes to Lizzie. I will join you on there.

This thread is about childcare and the rights or wrongs of the laws etc.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:03 AM

Quite right Les. Apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:22 AM

Re the complications in this legislation.

I gather another area that is a great source of confusion is the idea that families are exempt. Unfortunately, what constitutes a family is not defined. For example, if two people who already have infants begin to co-habit, but separate amicably after five years never having legally married, it is by no means clear whether they would need CRB checks to allow the others' child to stay with them more than a few hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:22 AM

More "liberal" fascism!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:24 AM

No problem Dave :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:35 AM

"Folkiedave, could I ask you kindly to start a new thread on Home Teaching and have your argument with Lizzie on there please. Same goes to Lizzie. I will join you on there.

This thread is about childcare and the rights or wrongs of the laws etc.
"


Er...I just need to point out, Les, that I've not once responded to the goading from Dave, so I'm therefore er...not arguing.

School is also about childcare, as is the link between how this government is controlling the parents and the children of this country in almost every conceivable way.

They are totally Nuts, but....Dangerously so.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:42 AM

Not if you are going to act in the way you are. Stop swearing and stop flaming.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:32 AM

Not flaming, just getting flaming annoyed with some of the somewhat patronising comments in here.

And by the way, I've a right to my feelings, even if they are passionate...same as you are, Villan...and I'd never tell you to stop talking in a thread, no matter what you're saying.

And now...back to free speech and free thinking, in this anything BUT 'free' society we now are all living in.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:55 AM

Just asking you to be polite Lizzie and keep calm and stop acting as though the world is against you. We all have a cross to bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:00 AM

It's called 'passion'....not acting as if the world is against me...sigh...

The trouble is, we've all be so busy being too damn 'polite' for way too long and LOOK what's happened!

Had we taken to the streets, as the French do, a very long time ago, and told them all to F*** off, rather than 'Oh dear me, tish, tish, what a palava, eh?" we might not even be having this conversation!

Who the heck do these people think they are, DARING to dictate to us, as a nation, that we can no longer look after each other's children without being registered.

F*ck 'em all!

And yes, 'Insubordination' is my middle name...and it became my middle name after useless teachers did so much damage to my two kids...as in children..as in kids...as in I'll call my two beautiful kids whatever I so wish....

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:08 AM

Ther you go again. Can't you just put things down in writing without resorting to the f word all the time. Yes you are passionate, but you need to calm down and reflect.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:17 AM

Oh, Poo!

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:50 AM

You don't help yourself Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:07 PM

Childcare Help could be illegal in Michigan, too according to this article.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:22 PM

'The Department of Human Services received a complaint that Snyder was operating an illegal child care home
A DHS spokesperson would not comment on the specifics of the case but says they have no choice but to comply with state law'

Sounds like you have the same kind of neighbours too MM

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:46 PM

Except that I don't live in Michigan. In this case, I wonder if it wasn't a personal vendetta against the woman in question. 'Anonymous' tips lend themselves to this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

Yes considering the two police women in the UK had been operating their mutual child care arrangements with no official 'interference' for two and a half years I wondered the same too :(

I have worked in child protection and we were required by law to investigate every 'complaint' whatever its 'origins' anonymous or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:57 PM

I think they should ban grandparents too, or at the very least make them take a course, 'cos after all, you can't trust 'em either! ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Childcare Help could be illegal UK
From: Lox
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

Well it looks like petitions do work.

I got this in my inbox today.

       CLICKY