BS: History of US radical religious right

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:58 PM

That is how serious researching SHOULD be done. On the internet, anyone can fabricate a story or repeat gossip as if it's true, and then anyone who reads it and wishes to believe it can copy and paste is as 'data' into discussions, reformulate it as part of new web pages, and allow Google to dispense it as 150 'hits', causing careless researchers to assume it's a widely known 'truth'.

It takes a little work to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I'm glad to see an example of doing it right.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

You certainly get credit for it, Sawzaw. That was a thoughtful post.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM

You do with me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:31 AM

I hope I get some credibility for trying to search out the truth and not just gleefully posting arbitrary things to stir up a controversy.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:52 AM

"Did Ward Connerly suggest the same thing you did, about providing affirmative action for economically disadvantaged people people regardless of race,..."


          Yes, that's exactly Ward Connerly's point. He says Affirmative Action should not be "Race Based." Otherwise, he says, it continues to force people into groups, to be seen as members of groups, and compels the groups to be antagonistic to one another.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:25 PM

Good work, Sawz.


A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM

I was wondering if MLK was a Republican so I started searching. I found a site that happily reported that the was. Then I saw on that site that the FBI had taped him having sex etc. How juicy. I was going to find the evidence and post a big expose featuring the indisputable words of Rev. Aberbnathy.

After reading and reading and reading I found out it is all horseshit propaganda. Abernathy never said it. He seems to be a good guy and King does too. He does cast aspersions on some others like Jesse Jackson.

J Edgar found there were some former Communists among MLKs associates so he requested permission from RFK for surveillance.

This caused friction between MLK and the Kennedys.

Whatever the FBI taped has been sealed in the National archives until 2027 and those reports of what was in the tapes seem to be pure speculation and rumors that got legs.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/mlking.asp

MLK was assassinated by a racist, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:36 PM

Did Ward Connerly suggest the same thing you did, about providing affirmative action for economically disadvantaged people people regardless of race, or did he just say that they should get rid of affirmative action all together?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:59 PM

If my representatives won't listen to Ward Connerly, why would they listen to me? But I'll try it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

That might be a good idea. Maybe you should write to your elected representatives about it.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:54 PM

Similar to the way it's structured now, only you deal with economically disadvantaged people instead of race and ethnicity. 90% of the time it would be the same people, but you wouldn't be punishing poor (meaning without resources) white males

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:25 PM

How would you structure that, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:07 PM

Use Affirmative Action, just don't make it "race based." The "old boys' network" you talk about keeps unconnected poor whites out of the system too. The way it is now they're the only ones kept out of the system.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

Until there was affirmative action, the old boy's network determined who would get contracts. The old boy's network is the product of institutionalized discrimination. It keeps all newcomers out, and fortified the entrenched power structure of white male dominance. Affirmative action helped people break through that entrenched power structure so they could start to correct that imbalance. How would you get rid of an entrenched power structure like that if you didn't use a tactic like affirmative action?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

"...how do you do that when the institutionalized discrimination goes underground and minorities can't get past the "old boys' networks"? How do you ensure that everyone gets the same breaks?"


             How is it done now? It's just too random. To be Hispanic, for instance, all you have to do is have a Spanish surname. Somebody from Spain or Portugal would qualify. They'd be just as Euorpean as a Swede.
             It depends on what the activity is. If it was an appliction to a university, bringing in a copy of your parents tax return might do it.
             How would some "old boys' network" have anything to say about it? And why wouldn't they anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

As stated earlier: all you have to do--if you have to do anything--is to give the same breaks to "Poor People" that you give to "Minority" people now, without dividing them into groups. You will essentially be helping the same people you help now, but it saves the government from acting as a racist organization.

This sounds good, but how do you do that when the institutionalized discrimination goes underground and minorities can't get past the "old boys' networks"? How do you ensure that everyone gets the same breaks?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM

"I'm just telling you what they think--or at least, what they say they think. "

And there's the key....of course folks who intend to discriminate and to violate the point of laws, if not the letter of the laws, will provide some self-serving rationale! They 'usually' (these days) don't just say "I hate all X & Y groups, and I intend to stop them any way I can."

There's always some indignant description of their 'enemies' as interfering with their 'rights' and blanket, unprovable accusations of 'secret controlling bankers' and 'tri-lateral commissions' and anything else they can dream up!
This in NO way shows that we should design programs to reflect inherently biased views.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

Rig:

I apologize--the context was unclear, and it sounded like you were saying those things as your own.


A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

"So it's ok to cause the same problems for dark skinned people but not white skinned people?"

         As stated earlier: all you have to do--if you have to do anything--is to give the same breaks to "Poor People" that you give to "Minority" people now, without dividing them into groups. You will essentially be helping the same people you help now, but it saves the government from acting as a racist organization.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM

Not really, Amos. If you sit through one of the neoNazi programs on the History Channel, or go to the National Alliance or a neoNazi web-site, you will see that those are the points that are made by the extreme-right-wing followers.

          I'm just telling you what they think--or at least, what they say they think.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

Jewish politicians and media outlets support increased immigration, affirmative action, and they act accordingly.

Rig:

I am sorry but you have just revealed yourself to be seriously aberrated and small-minded in this one post. Your conflation of policies and religious classifications is, to put it simply, bigoted.

A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

So it's ok to cause the same problems for dark skinned people but not white skinned people?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM

"So in your book, it's ok to allow dark skinned people to continue to be discriminated against and disadvantaged if correcting the problem could cause any inconvenience for the white skinned people?"


          The larger problem for me is it only caused an inconvenience--or drove to bankruptcy--POOR white skinned people. It didn't have any affect on well-to-do white skinned people.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:45 PM

Rig...that convoluted bit of rhetoric makes me gasp in frustration that anyone can suggest such twisted causality!

So now, the only way to object to racism and stupidity is to do it ANONYMOUSLY?

People like neo-nazis don't NEED an excuse to organize for nefarious purposes!

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Certainly not by simply shifting the same discrimination to another helpless group.

So in your book, it's ok to allow dark skinned people to continue to be discriminated against and disadvantaged if correcting the problem could cause any inconvenience for the white skinned people? Or do you have any better ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:30 PM

"Riginslinger, how would you propose that a society in which the government, private industry, and educational institutions had been practicing institutional racism and discrimination for many decades, might help to correct the inevitable results of such discrimination?"

         Certainly not by simply shifting the same discrimination to another helpless group.





    "What is your impression of the social prpocess by which affirmative action produces neoNazis?"

       When the government discriminates against a group of people, that group of people will certainly want to retaliate. When they do, the often band into groups to do it. They look for those individuals who are the cause of their misery, and, like we see in published reports, they discover that Jewish politicians and media outlets support increased immigration, affirmative action, and they act accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

" I guess that makes me Native American."

Well gee, if you have been discriminated against, I guess you could Sioux someone!

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:41 PM

Rig:

What is your impression of the social prpocess by which affirmative action produces neoNazis? I just have no idea how that assertion is even imagined to work, let alone any evidence it does.


A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:11 PM

Riginslinger, how would you propose that a society in which the government, private industry, and educational institutions had been practicing institutional racism and discrimination for many decades, might help to correct the inevitable results of such discrimination? It's not possible for that kind of broad institutional racism and discrimination to not have a debilitating effect on the discriminated population. And such institutional racism and discrimination doesn't just disappear the moment it is made illegal. It lingers for a very long time in ways that may not be easy to detect, but that continue to have a negative impact on the ability of the target group to have a level playing field with those who are not discriminated against. What remedies would you suggest for correcting this?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:25 AM

Well, I'm not Protestant, so I guess that makes me Native American.

          But aside from that, if there was a way to track it, I'll bet Affirmative Action has produced more NeoNazi's, Skinheads, and National Alliance members than the numbers of minorities it helped.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:30 PM

*shrug*...I dunno, Rig... are you Native American or something?...or are youjust a disgruntled WASP?

You can try to hire a lobbyist, but some of them would just laugh at some complaints...

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

"Unfortunately, some inequities need to BE adjusted, and I can't see anyone other than the government to do it..."

    More unfortunate than that, if the adustments aren't made in your working lifetime, you just simply get fucked. I wonder if they'll work out an Affirmative Action program for my children and grandchildren to make up for what they did to me in mine.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

Evangelism with all the trimmings, like the rapture, started with a pracher in the UK. Funny that it took root in America but withered in England. I suppose that whacky new ideas regarding religion is best exported to America for fun and prophet.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

No... it IS workable, it's just not perfect.... like judging the skating performances at the Olympics.
   You can't have perfect when trying to adjust inequities.

Unfortunately, some inequities need to BE adjusted, and I can't see anyone other than the government to do it. You want to 'suggest' to employers that they 'be nice & fair', and leave them to it?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:50 AM

"'In the case of veterans, it was something they earned.'"
    "Which I already said I understood.... but which does NOT answer why the bonuses were set so high. I was not against vets getting the benefit of close scores over me, I just thought that 10 points (why not 4...or 6?)"

         Yes, government intervention upsets the apple cart--as it does with Affirmative Action.

         You should have been a contractor in California, where everything under 10 million dollars was set-aside for minoritys, and you couldn't bond 10 million. Again, the rich guys didn't pay.

         Affirmative Action, the way it's currently practiced, is just simply not workable.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 12:35 AM

Interesting questions. How do the killings of JFK, and RFK relate to racism.

Personally, I'm willing to consider the possibility that Johnson was involved in all of that (although it was Uncle Jedgar who put King under surveillance and I don't know if he actually took his orders from anyone else... he probably had Johnson under surveillance, too). However, I said now, which is almost a half century after those events.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:13 PM

JFK, RFK and MLK Assassinated by Whom?

Who ordered MLK under surveillance?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM

"In the case of veterans, it was something they earned.

Which I already said I understood.... but which does NOT answer why the bonuses were set so high. I was not against vets getting the benefit of close scores over me, I just thought that 10 points (why not 4...or 6?) was defeating a lot of the reasons for having an exam and thus, watering down the talent pool.
I gather that this is one of the standard complaints about affirmative action.
I am not complaining...just noting what the issues are.

Sadly, most of the details of such decisions are political and voted on by legislators pressed by lobbyists, rather than being designed by experts in several fields.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:16 PM

Sawzaw, there's no denying that there were a lot of racist Democrats in the past. Nobody is even trying to deny that. But you can't use what happened in the past to define what is happening now, and you also can't do that with regard to the Republican party, either, which these days is the more racist of the two parties overall.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

"Reacting to news that Booker T. Washington had dined at the White House, Senator Benjamin Tillman of South Carolina predicted, "The action of President Roosevelt in entertaining that ni**er will necessitate our killing a thousand ni**ers in the South before they will learn their place again."

Randall Kenedy

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:44 AM

In the case of veterans, it was something they earned.

    Affirmative Action is ridiculous the way it is now. Tiger Woods' children would qualify for special consideration. It would be better to do away with it all together. But if it has to be there, it would make more sense to simply apply it to "poor people" without consideration of ethnic background.

    Ward Connerly is right on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:40 PM

*sigh*..Ok, mea culpa..thread started last Oct., and I didn't post in it for 9 days....and then I opened it with the 50 at a time column and saw no references. Old brain loses track of the details.

I WILL add my voice to those who agree that affirmative action is, regrettably, necessary. It certainly is NOT "government sponsored racism". There IS no precise formula for correcting injustice and bias. ALL attempts will be met with complaints that 'it goes too far' or 'it doesn't deal with every case equally'. Right.... it just simply must be attempted and tweaked to make it better.

(I never understood why the FSEE (Federal Service Entrance Exam), which I took several times in the 70s, needed to have the Veterans preference scores give 'exactly' 5 & 10 point bonuses. I got a pure score of 96.5 on one, and STILL could not get a job when some veterans with scores of 88 were beating me. But that's the way it was, and I understood why there was a bonus being given.)

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:45 PM

"The notion that affirmative action--intended to be a corrective to decades of covert and overt abuse--could be construed as government racism is --I think--delusory."

         I can sympathize with the intentions that generated Affirmative Action, but a number of things went wrong. First of all, it only punished poor white males. Bill Gates never suffered from Affirmative Action. And then it was expanded to cover everyone but white males: women, Hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and on and on. So the people who paid the price became a small minority group in themselves.
         And then, to go back to the first point, rich white males didn't pay, so the group became even smaller still.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:20 PM

Read the thread, Bill. In particular, I would suggest reading the opening post.

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

?? This is getting confusing... who mentioned Blumenthal? And WHICH Blumenthal? Can't tell the hatemongers without a scorecard....

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

Just what we need, a hatemonger on the Left to offset the hatemongers on the Right. This Blumenthal should be stuck in a room with Ann Coulter and they can hate each other to death. Ugh, what a filthy man. I'll be back after I take a mind-shower.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

The notion that affirmative action--intended to be a corrective to decades of covert and overt abuse--could be construed as government racism is --I think--delusory.

It is not the ideal scene of all men being color blind but for crying out loud, mon, recognize the context!


A

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

what percentage of racist southern Whites switched their party affiliation from Democrat to Republican?

AH! Ya mean the infamous Republican "Southern Strategy" that they're so proud of?

Subject: RE: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

Some of my posts were in response to posts that have been deleted.