Rebel Flag meaning

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:58 AM

Sorry, Mom.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:19 AM

By the way, McGrath, is the use of the term scizophrenic more or less offensive than the display of the Confederate battle flag?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:18 AM

More so, in places where the Confederate flag is seen generally as no more offensive than any other American flag.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:05 PM

Ah but Kevin, as you've repeatedly stated, by your own reasoning and logic[sic], if I don't see "scizophrenic" as an offensive term, then it isn't one.

Also, can you tell me how the total number of scizophrenics in the world populattion who might take offense compares to the total number of persons of color?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:08 PM

Remember we are discussing the Rebel Flag (which is the Battle Flag, not the St. Andrew's Cross or the single white star with a blue field that was flown in South Carolina who first seceded from the Union.

The Battle Flag is offensive to many today unlike other variations of American flags.

McGrath, the ignorance of the Brits that fly this flag is appalling. They know nothing of American history and the role this flag played in the subjection of African-Americans.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Thomas Jefferson was a politician. He may have felt ambivalence about slavery but found it convenient not to rock the boat. He had a romantic affair with Sally Hemmings, a black woman and he provided for her children.

He was a product of his times. Even Abe Lincoln had his doubts about abolition.

Abolitionists were like atheists today. They were reviled and mistreated by many in the Northern States.

William Lloyd Garrison publicly burned a copy of the Constitution in 1844, declaring it "a Covenant with Death, an Agreement with Hell," referring to the compromise that had written slavery into the Constitution. You can see how popular that made him.

He was forcefully removed by violence for his abolitionist speech at Faneuil Halll in Boston.

The Quakers were also reviled by many for their abolitionist stands.

We forget just how hard it was to deal with Civil Rights in those times.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

People here perhaps know enough about American history to be aware that racism in America has not been confined to the South - which was why I wrote "the Confederate flag is seen generally as no more offensive than any other American flag." When people make use them, this is about recognition of the music rather than the racism.

(And no, that doesn't imply some suggestion that racism isn't part of British history and society, but it takes different forms and is represented by different symbols.)

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:35 PM

...racism in America has not been confined to the South...

No shit. Has not been and still isn't. Thanks for that startling bit of information.

But what the feck has that to do with the Confederate battle flag?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:17 PM

"the Greg F we know and love"...   

QED


You're absolutely right, Greg.    Please, accept my apology for having mistaken you for a reasonable, logical person. I assure you we won't make that mistake again.

I note you continue your winning ways of criticism without basis.   

If you don't think that fear of slave revolts and the economic argument I cited had a lot to do with the 1806 abolition of slavery in Britain--then and not earlier-- exactly why not?

I fervently hope the act of actually putting together a logical argument, with direct quotes,--as opposed to unsupported ex cathedra pronouncements and lists of books--will not prove too much of a strain for you.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:48 AM

"What has that got to do with the Confederate Battle flag"

The point was being made that which flags cause offense depends on who you are and where you are in the world. The world isn't attuned to the American mindset and the world isn't fully aware of American history and internal American affairs and most of the world will have no real interest in them anyway - hence it is absurd to expect everyone to react to symbols in the same way as the average American would. As others have said, in the UK the first thing most folk would think if they saw someone displaying the said flag is that the flag owner was a country music fan. Racism or right-wing politics would probably not cross their mind. That may be down to ignorance of American history etc, but never the less it is so.

In truth throughout most of the world there is probably more chance of offending someone if you flew the Stars and Stripes as that is the symbol America marches under. The same of course would be said for the Union Flag. Fly it outside Buckingham Palace or at the Proms and no-one would bat an eyelid. But take it to the Falls Road or fly it in various other parts of the world then you're maybe asking to be abused or worse.

So however dimly the said flag is viewed internally in the US the fact is that it hasn't got the more world-wide bad image that for instance the Swastika has developed.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

'hasn't got the more world-wide bad image that for instance the Swastika has developed. '

& even then not 'worldwide: as pointed out above, the swastika has been rehabilitated in India, the country of is origin as a mystic religious symbol. As I said before, I think it good that the symbol has survived its hijacking by the evil & ill-intentioned and been returned to its original status and purpose in the part of the world where it originated.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:48 AM

Re-post from MtheGM

Point taken! Thanks

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:52 AM

Before everyone rushes off to purchases a copy of Simple Seeker's bible

The Slave Trade: The Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade, 1440-1870. By Hugh Thomas. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997,

It would be well to read the reviews of this somewhat flawed work. A representative one is available Here and there are many others.

Please also note that this is a work on the slave TRADE, not the institution of slavery or the abolition movement.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:56 AM

Apologies; technical error. This quote from the review cited above was meant to be included in my last post:

This brings us to the fourth problem: the issue of research. Lord Thomas chose to work with two kinds of literature, narrative primary sources and older scholarly literature, ignoring almost entirely the huge body of research and interpretive works of the last thirty years.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:22 AM

There's a reason why Jefferson suggested that every now and then the country might have to revisit the experiement that he and his FFF'a (Fellow Founding Fathers) set in motion... And that is precisely why there is an ammeding clause in the Constitution...

Times change...

There wasn't a confederate flag around during Jefferson's time...
There wasn't a Civil (which it wasn't0 War around... Jim Crow hadn't even been bron yet... Lots of things changed...

So to argue the merits (or lack thereof) of the Conferate flag using 1800 logic is like debating how many angels can stand on the end of a pin...

Meanwhile, millions of Americans, who BTW disporportinately built the infastructure of this nation, have to wake every day knowing that a large number of their fellow citizens hate them because of their skin color... And what makes this even more painfull is that the rest of the country has been so conditioned by generations of right wing propaganda into thinking that these borish rednecks have the right to propagate their hate??? The only "heritage" aspect of the confederate flag is it represents hate that has been passed down from one redneck generation to the next...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:57 AM

That may be down to ignorance of American history etc

Precisely my point. But the ignorance of the person displaying the item doesn't make it any less offensive to the viewer.

Before shoving something in peoples' faces, one ought to know what it is & what it represents.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

"Before shoving it in people's faces etc"

Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this as you are missing the point that in general 'in the UK' the displaying of the said flag (when it does happen) isn't particularly controversial to either the displayer or the viewer - so it isn't generally being shoved in the faces of people who are offended. If it was offending people then more people would know about it being offensive and then it would no doubt become an issue! As various people have said it is generally simply a sign that someone likes country music and doesn't have the connotations you suggest.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: billhudson
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM

As to the Sons Of Confederate Veteran I have met these guys and it was very strange. At the time I was with some friends whom I met on the film set of the film, The Patriot. They were having a western day with cowboys and cowgirls and the kids seem to like it. But there was this guy on a horse ridding around with posters that said, wanted for treason-Abe Lincoln and said a few other things. We all took it as a joke in a way but I looked at them and was thinking…Klan.
Well this guy on the horse had a cap and ball revolver and let it go off right near this one cowboy's face. The cowboy had power burns all over one side of his face. From then on we keep our distance with those folks. And we have not seen them sense then.
This was in Floyd , Va. and not too far from downtown Floyd (not big).

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

Allan, if I take your meaning, then it is OK for Irish Americans to wear IRA symbols, because it means something different to us than to English folks. And English folks should just get over our preoccupation with the IRA because to us it is a symbol of our heritage and these folks, to us, are freedom fighters. This is being used as an analogy and not a completely accurate representation of my views, but is my analogy flawed? If so, how?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:38 PM

PHJim

I'm from Canada, I move to the US in 1998 and have been here since. I've lived in Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, Michigan and now North Carolina. I've talked to people I got to know in each state about the symbolism of that flag and was actually living in Georgia when the debate about removing it from the state flag was quite fresh.


My current neighbors, almost all black, almost all descended from slaves, are not particularly offended by that flag. But they do see it as an indication of the content of a man's character. It is an indication to them that the person is either supporting racism of is too lazy or ignorant to consider the implications of the symbol. So I would say to the folks in Briton who consider it a symbol of American music, that it is certainly not such a symbol for the most of American music. It certainly was not a symbol of Elvis, who was publicly anti-racist.

It is a symbol of so called "southern rock" and of what I would call "the South's gonna rise again" movement from the 70's. "Dukes of Hazard" was a part of that as well and an effort to rehabilitate the confederate flag as a symbol of a resurgent South stemmed from all of that. But the more attention that movement got the more protests came to remove the symbol from state flags and other official symbols of southern states.

As to the deeper, individual, meanings among those who use the flag, I have a well educated friend in the IT industry who supports the flag. Experience has shown me that he may be fairly typical of supporters of the Confederate Flag. He also calls "The Civil War" "The War of Northern Aggression" and he says that it was not about slavery. It was about "States Rights" and over "economic factors." He also uses the word "nigger", not in front of black people of course, but says that for him it does not apply to all black people, just the lazy no accounts who collect and support welfare.

Certainly most who display the flag realize that they will not be respected by black people, and by as Mick stated, supporters of civil rights, and they have no problem with that.

In fact I think that, at the very least, it is quite rude and inconsiderate to display that flag. Anyone who chooses to do so, in the South, is a betrayer of that revered Southern value of good manners.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:46 PM

Well said, jts.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:51 PM

He also uses the word "nigger", not in front of black people of course, but says that for him it does not apply to all black people, just the lazy no accounts who collect and support welfare

This attitude is really repulsive. I have worked with several closet racists who feel the same way. The conversation usually progresses in the same way. A vague remark is made by them about black people in general, or a specific black person in particular, and you can feel that this person is gauging your reaction to see if it will be ok to trot out the N word. The sense of "we're all white here so lets just tell it like it is" is extremely disturbing. "Let's define the word to only apply to the stereotype, and then we can freely use it. I'm not talking about the President...unless you think that's alright."
The effect sought is that the speaker is intelligent, open-minded, and yet sensible enough to call it as he sees it. To me, way uglier than the Klansman in his hood, or a Nazi wearing a Confederate Flag arm band.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM

I don't think there'd be any reason Irish Americans shouldn't feel free to wear a Sinn Fein symbol like this , or display a poster like this.

The analogy isn't too close actually - after all, IRA veterans are part of the government in Northern Ireland these days.

Around the same time as the Confederacy came into being, Bruitish forces were engaged in the Second Opium War in China, aimed at reying to protect teh right of British merchants to carry on an producing and sellimg opium inm China. They were fighting under the smam Union Jack that is still used today.

Why should one flag associated with slavery be seen by people in the rest of the world as significantly more shameful than another flag associated with enforcing the drug trade - or, for that matter, other flags associated with slavery, such as all American national flags up until the Civil War?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:02 PM

Yeah, jts, exactly... Part of the South's problem is that it has never recovered from having it's educated class wiped out in the unCivil War... These people would have been the first to get it... But those that didn't get killed became imbittered by the loss of their wealth, their status and a dozen years on Union occupation... Didn't leave much in the way of folks with Southern manners which are, for the most part, a myth...

Southerners propagate lots of myths when it comes to race... I've heard the myth that Southern whote folks "get along" better with black folks because whites in the South have lived with black people longer... That is a big dumbass myth... Just as this "Heritage, not hate" myth... And even those white kids who go to Southern colleges ain't comin' out with any degree of enlightenment... Just degrees... I know, I got a couple of them (degrees from Southern universities, that is)...

So, bottom line, Southern manners ain't all they are cracked up to be unless it's whites with whites...

"We say grace and we say mam
If you ain't into that
we don't give a damned..."

Yeah, that's purdy much it for Southern manners... Hank hit the nail right on the head there in that they "don't give a damned"... Great manners, huh???

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:02 PM

Big Mick..I think your analogy is wrong...I think it is more like should we be denied festooning ourselves with shamrocks because it is linked in people's minds with IRA support..which it may or may not be. I don't think people who don't have family memories of the Civil War should display the flag..like you going down there and doing it...so basically I think no C flag except in the few circumstances I listed before. mg

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: billhudson
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:03 PM

Point made Lonesome..you know when I was young and was always out numbered when that kind of talk would happen. I would not say a word. But now, I am still out numbered but I do not care and speak up. I think it begins right then and there.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

I've experienced that as well "EJ" another friend from Alabama was a perfect example of that. But the one to whom I referred was not. I think it was more a case of compartmentalization and rationalization. The word was from his home and heritage. He did not want to reject his grandparents values, so he internalized a different meaning. He pretty much admitted that when I pointed out how, I as and outsider felt about the word and how a person he might consider a "non-nigger" black might feel.

The issue is very complicated. But I think that education and integration is slowly winning over. Maybe in another generation or two that war will truly be over in the hearts and minds of the white South. But I don't think that Canadians and Brits using that flag are doing anything to help. Frankly, they should also have better manners then that.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:25 PM

...from long articles about the Civil War:

"The 1860 census counted 240,747 "free Negroes" in the slave states, 15,000 more than lived in the free states to the north."

There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves.

"...black Americans marched to war with the Southern armies from the very beginning in early 1861. In contrast, the Federal government refused to allow black men to serve in its ranks until well into the conflict. It was 1863 before the North began using black troops in any large number, and only then after considerable opposition."

{for what that's worth}

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

Bobert,

For what it is worth, I have observed blacks and whites getting along much better in Phenix City, Alabama, Columbus, Georgia and Wilmington, North Carolina than I did in southern and central Ohio.

In the past I have attributed that to the fact that the races had been together longer in the South. I am not so sure of that now. For one thing, the specific histories of the southern towns I have lived in give more compelling reasons, for another, it is too small a sample to generalize. On the other hand, I have seen enough of the North and the South to firmly believe that manners are generally better, in public at least, in the stores, restaurants, high tech workplaces and hotels, in the South.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

No harm in a bit of thread drift - I wonder if there's been any research into how different societies rate when it comes to good manners and general friendliness. Lots of anecdotal stuff and subject impressions, but I've never come across any evidence-based studies.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:58 PM

There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves.
I don't buy this. Unless Cherokee slave owners in Oklahoma were counted as black.

"...black Americans marched to war with the Southern armies from the very beginning in early 1861. In contrast, the Federal government refused to allow black men to serve in its ranks until well into the conflict. It was 1863 before the North began using black troops in any large number, and only then after considerable opposition." Another specious or at least misleading statement. The Confederacy was extremely nervous about arming slaves, as you can imagine. The black Americans who "marched to war with the Southern armies" were primarily slaves, retainers, cooks,farriers, and washer women. It was not until January of 1864 that the attrition to the Confederate Armies compelled the CSA leadership to study organizing black troops. This notion was never brought to fruition, although it was considered several times in 1864.
On the other hand, it's true the Union did not pursue organizing Black military units until after the Emancipation Proclamation in summer 1862 for fear of alienating the border states, but after the proclamation, the enlistment of black soldiers was pursued in earnest. By the end of the war, 180,000 black troopers were serving, about 10% of the Union force.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

"I don't buy this. Unless Cherokee slave owners in Oklahoma were counted as black."

I hope you don't believe that Oklahoma was a state in 1865 or before, much less that it was a slave state. Perhaps you also believe that the state of Oklahoma was part of the Confederacy.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

Oklahoma was a territory where slavery was legal. The tribes in Oklahoma fought on both sides of the conflict.
Your information seems to support somebody's agenda about blacks in the Civil War, and to be slanted, subjective, and inaccurate. I suggest that, instead of siting "a long article about the Civil War" and concluding with "for what it's worth", that you be specific about your source, and honest about your intent. If you are suggesting something along the old line of "blacks in the South were happy with their system and willing to go to war to preserve it" be honest about it. If you are suggesting that "black" families had and held black slaves and thus had an interest in supporting the Confederacy, you definitely need more specific and accurate information to support such a claim.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

You must not even read what your posts, much less what I posted.

Facts don't have a agenda.

Please support your statement that the Cherokee had enough black slaves to be worthy of mention.

One side of my family is Okie and part is Cherokee. The blacks who came west in President Jackson's relocation program were mostly escaped slaves who took refuge on Cherokee lands where they were treated as equals. The fact that state and federal troops could not touch them while they were on Indian lands (early 1830s) was one of the reasons for the relocation of most Indians to the territory west of the Mississippi River.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

Too bad that there ain't a large number of black Mudcatters 'er this discussion would have ended a long time ago...

As for Southerners having better manners??? Nah!!! Just different... Same "Ahhhh shucks, mam" Southerners use the word "nigger" freely when they are with their buddies... That ain't good manners... That's what the bluesman Son House referred to as folks "smiling in your face" and it is phony as a 3 dollar bill...

As for blacks fightin' in tyhe unCivil War??? Well, yeah... The only home they ever knew was the South and it was being invaded... That is a purdy lame arguemnt for rednecks flyin' the Confederate flag these days...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

Don't waste your time EJ- we've been thru this whole "Black Confederates" "Loyal Slaves" "slaves had it better than free workers in the North" Neo-Cofederate bullshit with PeeDee & others before, and for them no facts need apply. I'll see if I can dig up the earlier thread & post a 'clickie' to it.

If they didn't "get it" then, they ain't gonna now.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:03 PM

From Slavery in America Tony Siebert...
The harsher treatment of blacks by the Five Civilized Tribes, including the Seminoles, possibly stemmed in part from the larger number of enslaved blacks held by Indians after the removal(to Oklahoma). The number of enslaved blacks among the Creeks increased from 502 to 1,532; among the Cherokees, the number grew from 1,592, to 2,511; among the Choctaw, from 512 to 2.349; and among the Chickasaw, the number climbed from several hundred to around 1,000. For the Seminole, the number increased from 500 to less than 1,000, although most scholars dispute this figure as too high in view of the many who are known to have been stolen and sold by slavers or else who had run off to Mexico.

There you go. Whether you think 2511 slaves is worthy of mention I leave to your disgression.

Facts don't have an agenda? I didn't see many facts in your "from long articles about the civil war" post, so I suppose that statement is correct. The general and nebulous "There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves" might qulaify as a fact in your eyes, but it sounds like horsedroppings to me, and I'd like to know your source, if you have one.

As you requested, I have sited support for my statement.
Your turn.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

OK, then, ONE MORE TIME!:

Here's One
and
Here's Another
and
Yet Another
and
And Yet Another


There are at least two or three more related threads, but I can't find 'em quickly.

Something of an eye-opener how ingrained institutional racism is and how little people really know about slavery, the abolition movement, the ante-bellum South, the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:50 PM

Bobert,

I don't know what Southern manners are like when they talk
"with their buddies". I do know how they are when they interact with me and I have seen plenty of interaction between blacks and whites and I am quite willing to stand by what I have said. In general, southerners, both black and white in the few dozen cities I have visited, seem to have better manners.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

Don't come to Page County, Va., jts... It's so bad here that there is a gas station/ general store that employs a black man so the "boys" take their "nigger jokes" outside... But, yeah, Southern man be perfectly willing and able to "smile in your face"... That's what the older bluesmen called it and, like I said, it is phony... Manners is manners and if someone is smiling in yer face and then callin' you a nigger behind yer back that person ain't all that mannerly... Least that's the way it is in rural South... City folks is prolly better behaved, I donno???

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:19 PM

Thank you, Lonesome EJ.

You are a gentleman and a scholar, and there are too few of us left.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

I once read that a White Northerner doesn't care how 'high' a Black man rises, as long as he doesn't get too close; a White Southerner doesn't care how close a Black man gets as long as he doen't get too high.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:02 PM

The dynamics of racism is different in the South and North. The so-called "Southern Hospitality" is just a matter of dealing with societal problems differently. Remember that Nazi Germany also maintained a kind of superficial "civility" while committing atrocities.

There are parts of the South that eschew any kind of civil decorum. There are parts of the North that are polite and civil. These generalizations shed no light on the rampant racism found in every part of the country.

I have encountered both civility and open blatant racist hostility in both Northern and Southern cities. Yes, Virginia, there is North Hospitality as well.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:14 PM

Can't get further North than Canada can you?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

"Re-Mick's question about Americans wearing IRA symbols"

I honestly think that in Britain there has never been an aversion to people displaying their political feelings and Irish Republicanism was viewed as a valid cause so I don't think republicanism itself would cause any offence to the vast majority of people. Yes the symbols of terrorist organisations (both republican and loyalist) are viewed in a different light though I suspect Scots are more attuned and sensitive to them because of the measure of sectarianism within Scottish society itself. I remember my English wife seeing the Red Flag of Ulster symbol and not knowing what it was. Personally I think most English people are pretty relaxed to the subject and sectarianism is just about history in England. As to Americans displaying IRA symbols. I suspect that most folk would simply have dismissed them as misty eyed romantasists who didn't realise that the Prov IRA were a proscribed orgainsation not only in the UK but in Ireland itself. So I don't really think that too many people would lose sleep over the symbolism. There was perhaps a bit of an anti-American mood, especially in Northern Ireland itself, because of the allegations that the terrorist campaign was at least partly funded by Irish-Americans in Boston and New York etc. However that is a different matter.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:52 PM

I've been a bit busy--a bit too busy to monitor Mudcat below the line.


So Greg, you don't like The Slave Trade.   That's peachy.   Anybody who cares to read the criticism of Thomas' book will find that probably the top problem is that he does not consider the problem from the slave's point of view. However this has nothing to do with why British participation in the slave trade ended . So your criticism is a red herring in the issue of exactly why British participation in the slave trade was banned in 1807--and not earlier.

It's also interesting that somehow you have neglected to actually come up with a a logical countertheory to the one I have put forward--with direct quotes of course, as mine had.
One might be possibly tempted to hazard a guess that you have no argument to counter mine--- and that your criticism is so much hot air.   I'm sure you wouldn't want anybody to think that, of course.

I'll break my theory down so you can tell us exactly which part you don't understand.

1) West Indian interests had huge clout in Parliament.   According to Birth of the Modern (p 321), by another British historian, Paul Johnson: "Of incomes derived overseas including Ireland, William Pitt told the House of Commons in 1798, about 80% came from the
West Indies. The richest men in Britain were those with successful West Indian estates."

2) Saint Domingue provided a clear object lesson of a successful slave rebellion.

3) From the French Revolution up to 1802, the anti-slave trade movement had to contend with the suspicion of links to Jacobinism, since during that time France banned French participation in the trade.    In 1802, Napoleon re-instituted it, which removed that argument from the arsenal of the anti-abolitionists.


3) There were however still powerful interests in favor of the slave trade.   The British Navy looked on slave ships to some extent as the "nursery of the Navy".   The validity of this can be seen in the fact that not just Britons learned seacraft on board slavers-- e.g. John Paul Jones, a Briton originally of course, started his career aboard a slave ship.   Certain cities, especially Liverpool, were heavily dependent on the slave trade--not just shipowners, but rope makers, shipbuilders, and even bakers.

Wellington was at one point quoted as saying: Thomas p 546, that he was "bred in the good old school and taught to appreciate the value of our "West Indian possessions and neither in the field not the Senate shall their just rights be infringed, while I have an arm to fight in their defense, or a tongue to launch my voice against the damnable doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies".




However, as I noted, in 1806 the West Indies were in debt, there was a large sugar surplus and the "old colonies" did not want any more slaves. Prime Minister Grenville, in January 1807, made exactly this point:   Thomas, p 555:   "Grenville argued that abolition was necessary to ensure the survival of the older Caribbean colonies: 'Are they not now distressed by the accumulation of produce on their hands, for which they cannot find a market?   And will it not be adding to their distress...if you suffer the continuation of further importations?"

This was the sea change. The West Indian interests, powerful as they were, did not themselves want any more slaves.   So they withdrew their opposition to ending the slave trade--and made this plain to their representatives--as reflected in the PM's quote above.
So the moral push to end the slave trade, a movement which had been for decades unsuccessfully trying to get such a bill through Parliament, was able to seize the moment.
It was the economics which changed--and dramatically tipped the balance in favor of abolition.

If you have a countertheory, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.   Logic and direct quotes, of course, would be considered necessary, as I'm sure you're aware.

Thanks so much.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:35 AM

Well, Simple Seeker, I don't think there's anyone likes the slave trade much these days tho its still going on.

But if you're referring to the The Slave Trade... by Thomas, its not that I personally "don't like it" but that most reviewers panned it, and NOT because he doesn't adopt the slaves point of view, as the reviews make clear. I realize that ignoring 30 years of scholarship may not be a problem for you, but it is for others.

Basing arguments on Thomas makes you very much like Major General Stanley: your knowledge has only been brought down to the beginning of the century.

If you care to rectify that and read a study or two from the last fifty years or so, then get back to me & we'll talk about it.

Til then, have impressing yourself woth your supposed erudition. I ain't gonna play.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: John P
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM

What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

Drift, my boy, drift...

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM

What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?

You'd have to ask the Simple Seeker After Truth and Fount of All Knowledge, LLC. He brought it up, and at great length.