Rebel Flag meaning

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:54 AM

Another story here http://www.allvoices.com/news/4583628-nazi-symbols-probe-wearing
of inappropriate symbolism

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

"Basing arguments on Thomas..."    Fascinating that after all this time, the poster has not come up with a counter-theory, though he was cordially asked to do so--with direct quotes, logic, sources, etc, of course..   If you think Thomas misquoted the PM, for instance, let's have the exact quote.

Otherwise the carping we've seen so far bears a distinct resemblance to:   shoot the messenger.

And yes, threads do drift--but sometimes other worthwhile topics come up.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM

"What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?"

Since the Confederacy was a system that relied on slavery to support it, the slave trade was essential to its survival. Since the Confederate flag was a symbol of the system, it had everything to do with it. Many of the descendants of the Confederacy still support the idea that slavery might have been justified because of their supposed notions of racial inferiority. The question posed suggests a complete ignorance of the feelings of contemporary African-Americans.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

Surely what was meant by "the slave trade" there was the international slave thread, outlawed in 1807 as a form of piracy, rather than the internal trading in slaves which continued in the States for the next 58 years, initially under the auspices of the (American) Union Flag, and, for the last couple of years of its existence, under the auspices of thew Confederate Flag.

Both flags symbolised a slave-owning country.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

Both flags symbolised a slave-owning country.

Sorry, no.

1. The Confederate States were not a country.

2. However they DID did declare war on the United States in order to perpetuate slavery.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

Actually, history may reveal that Lincoln declared war on the Confederacy to get them to become part of the Union. The evidence surrounding Fort Sumpter isn't in yet. Medical supplies were interpreted as weaponry and gave Lincoln a green light.

Still, Confederacy can't escape its association with the system of slavery. Lincoln didn't care about that in the beginning but he changed his mind in office.

The Confederacy wanted to declare themselves a country independent of the United States.
We should all be grateful that they never became one.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

As I understand it the Confederacy did declare themselves a country independent of the United States. The consequences at the time in the shape of war were appalling, and so was the aftermath of that war over a century and more, in the shape of continuing oppression of black Americans.

Perhaps it might have even been better if secession had been permitted. Perhaps slavery would have been ended in other ways, as happened over the following decades in other American countries such as Brazil. Nobody can ever know things like that.

The Confederate flag does of course have associations with slavery, and also with the oppression of black Americans over the years after slavery ended. But so does the flag of the United States. It's a guilt and a shame that has to be accepted and can be used positively, but only when it is accepted. And the same kind of thing is of course true of the flags of many, maybe most, countries.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM

"It's a guilt and a shame that has to be accepted and can be used positively,..."

                In any event, it's a development that can be used for positive purposes. It's hard to imagine an industrialized country today where slavery would even have a positive impact. One would have to educate the work force to a point where they would be able to function, and if that were done, it would be impossible to contain them as slaves.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:22 PM

The Confederacy could just as well have have declared itself a ham sandwich. It was never recognized by the U.S. OR the rest of the nations of the world as a separate country.

Sorry, String, but South Carolina attacked U.S. Government property, not 'tother way round. And the ships with Gustavus Fox carried provisions only- no way they could have been interpreted as anything else. The Sumpter episode has been explored & documented pretty thoroughly.

Lincoln was simply following his inagural pledge to hold properties belonging to the government, and that beyond that there would be no invasion of the South or use of military force.

But Confederate apologists have got some mileage out of the "Lincoln manuvered the South into starting the war" shibboleth.

McGrath: so the current flag of thre German Republic is equivalent to the Nazi flag?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:20 AM

'"My [Lincoln speaking] paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.'

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

So, Greg, still no counter-theory. Interesting.

It's very simple.   Either you can come up with a theory to rebut mine--with logic, facts, sources, and direct quotes--or you cannot.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

Well, Simple, hows about the theory that you're a pompous, self-important, anti-historical, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do arsehole?

You seem to think that a single quote from a single source somehow legitimizes and sanctifies whatever opinion you choose to expound upon.

One can cherry-pick quotes from a source or sources to support damn near any preposterous theory. But that's how cranks, not historians, operate.
Hence my mention of numerous works on topic which provide a more comprehensive, if more complicated, analysis & explanations - which you chose to ignore.

So fine - I'm tired of playing "Simple Seeker Says" with you - enjoy playing with yourself.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

I don't think it's offensive. I saw a documentary which included
people who fly the Confederate flag, and they said that it's a symbol
of the Southern U.S. Their intent was not to offend anyone.
That's how I feel about the Confederate flag, it represents the South.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

"...so the current flag of the German Republic is equivalent to the Nazi flag?"

A case of Godwin's Law...

My point was that the sharp distinction between the Confederate Flag and other American flags is open to question. They have a shared history involving a tolerance of slavery and oppression of black Americans.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

Here's a piece I found which puts a different angle on all this.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

Nice link, McGrath. As I've suggested, the flag's "meaning" is not fixed.

In terms of international recognition, of course the Confederacy was not a nation. In terms of its everyday functioning, of course it was.

Besides a flag recognized by the majority of the population, the CSA had a fully functioning government, a loyal populace, a known boundary, a national currency, a postal service, organized and uniformed armed services, a national constitution, and so forth.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

McGrath, are you being intentionally thick? Enough of the white supremecist, "Loyal Slaves", war was not about slavery, Sons of the Confederacy bullshit, please. The "Black Confederates" card has been played before;it was crap then, and its crap now. What's next, a screed on "Jewish Nazis?"

This nonsense has been categorically debunked over and over despite what a handful of deluded or psychotic individuals may contend.

The American National Flag - stars and stripes, whatever you want to call it- in its many incarnations (hint: the design of the flag at the time of the Civil War is not identical to the current flag) has flown in its 200 year plus year history over a nation that tolerated any number of anachronisms and atrocities to today's way of thinking. However, the Confederate Flag was created and used by those who went to war specifically to perpetuate the system of race-based chattel slavery that supported the social system and economy of the south. It does not "share a history" with other U.S. flags in any way, shape or form.

As for "I saw a documentary which included people who fly the Confederate flag, and they said that it's a symbol
of the Southern U.S. Their intent was not to offend anyone." I can direct you to any number of documentaries and websites of white supremecist, skinhead, neo-Nazi groups that say precisely the same things about their display of the Nazi flag.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

This man is deeply deluded. His personal experience belies the hangings, beatings, killings and mistreatment of slaves in the South. He says:

"The war was not about slavery. The South had the constitutional right to secede. Confederate soldiers were battling for their homes and their families. President Lincoln was a despot. Most importantly, the victors write the history."

The idea that there was a Constitutional right to secede is bogus. It was a basic flaw in the Constitution that the Founders were aware of and predicted the eventual Civil War. This was in no way a war between the States. It was a war by the South against the United States. Confederate soldiers would never have allowed this man to become a doctor.
He had to opt for physical education because that was what was available to him and yet
he is in denial about that.

Lincoln was many things but not a despot. Bush was a despot. Lincoln had compassion
for the soldiers in the South and took great pains to see that the breach was healed after the conflict. Unfortunately as we find today, with delusions by this man, the healing has been replaced by a pseudo Southern defense of their misbegotten heritage.

It it tragic that we hear a point-of-view by this poor man who attempts to salvage his
family's history as an enabler of Southern slavery.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

While it may be true that the precipitating reason for the Confederate States to secede from the Union was slavery, the war aim of Washington initially, and for several years after the war had started, was not to end slavery, it was to "preserve the union". That was specifically stated by Lincoln.

And yet it is by no means clear that there is not an implicit right of secession in any federation. Thomas Jefferson seems to have believed there was: "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"

Loading all the guilt for slavery and racism symbolically on the Confederate flag, and implying that the Union flag (in its various adjustments over the years) does not share that symbolic guilt, is to distort history and involves a failure in some ways to face up to that history, which is a "shared history". Both flags have been flown at lynchings.

Flags are strange and dangerous cultural artefacts. If it is possible to retrieve them from those who would use them to propagate hate and prejudice, is that such a bad idea? In the UK the Confederate Flag is generally seen essentially as the regional flag of the South, in the context of music. I'd see that as positive.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM

In the UK the Confederate Flag is generally seen essentially as the regional flag of the South, in the context of music. I'd see that as positive.

Its far from positive. Its ignorant and offensive. Its DOUBLY offensive when folks who have been exposed to the real history of this flag chose to ignore that history in favor of some fantasy.

McGrath, you cannot take a single statement by Lincoln the consumate politician and apply it unilaterally. You need to read the REST of his works including those from before the war.

Suggest you read Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" to get a better understanding of the Lincoln administration.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:42 PM

And Mcgrath, the only one who is "Loading all the guilt for slavery and racism symbolically on the Confederate flag" is YOURSELF.

What is being placed "on the flag" is only the justly deserved portion of the the ACTUAL - not symbolic - slavery, racism, and white supremacy the Confederate Battle Flag represented AS WAS INTENDED AND ADMITTED and evidenced by its creators.

The distortion of history is attempting to erase or whitewash (no pun intended) what the flag represented then as well as now.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:21 PM

Thomas Jefferson said a lot of things. He, like so many politicians, was not consistent.
He emended his famous speech about "watering the tree of liberty".

The difference in flying the American flag at lynchings and the Confederate flag has more to do with the intention of the lynchers. The Confederate flag being flown has a specific intention and that is to support a system of slavery and the inferiority of a race. The American flag has historically symbolized the opposite.

I think Jefferson would have understood Lincoln in the context of the Civil War and emended his statement.

I don't think that the UK in its entirety would consider the proposition that flying this battle flag would be a positive in light of the sociology of the US regarding its position on slavery.
In short, not one person can speak for an entire UK.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

The American flag has historically symbolized both. Which is true of the British flag as well.

When South Africa changed, and repudiated the nightmare apartheid era, it would have been very understandable if the new South Africa had abandoned all the symbols of that time. But it didn't. The flag was changed, true enough, but when it came to the new national anthem, that incorporated the both the African anthem "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" , and the Afrikaans anthem, "Die Stem". Changing a symbol to mean something new can be a better way of robbing it of its power to do damage.

Here's a reworking of the Confederate Flag incorporating the colours of African Liberation that make up the Southern African flag which was put together a few years ago that might bear considering using. (And here's an article about it.)

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:32 PM

OK, McGrath, I give up- you ARE being wilfully thick & obtuse. Believe whatever fairytale you want. Perhaps you think you're being amusing or cute.

As far as "re-working" the flag, I seem to recall something about lipstick on a pig.

There are, however, quite a few in the UK who do see the Confederate Flag for what it actually is. Since you won't inform yourself by means of the published history works & the non-fiction sources pick up a copy of Ian Rankin's "Mortal Causes" some time. Or if that's too much trouble, watch that episode of the television series.

Of course, Rankin is a Scot...

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM

Ya know... I was thinkin' about this will in North Carolina last week... Passions run very deep in the South and seems the further Sotuh you get the higher they run... There is a resentment that has been passed down... Some of it somewhat rational and some completely off the wall...

The Rational: Yeah, the Union made for some piss-poor victors... The war had allready turned when Sherman burned a 60 mile wide swath thru the South... What was that about??? And then after Appomatox the Union felt it needed to occupy the South until 1876 and would have stayed longer had a deal not been struck in the Hayes-Tilden election... Yeah, those sins are not easlyy disregarded...

The unRational: The "rebel flag" represents heritage, not hate??? Hey, here's what I'd like to see... Test all the folks who think that on their knowledge of history... I think that would put an end to this argument... Most of these folks think the 3 branches of government are: Anhauser-Busch, NASCAR and Walmart...

Nuff said...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

while others say don't hate nothing at all except hatred