Rebel Flag meaning

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

The Civil War (which it wasn't) was a major blemish on our history... Remembering it so that we don't repeat it is smart... Glorifying it is stupid... This spoken by a Virgininian where much of the war was fought...

As for the "rebel flags"... I have never met anyone who displayed it in public who wasn't a redneck... Yeah, okay, they have a right to fly the sumabich and the rest of us have the right to call them the racists and rednecks that they are... 1st Ammendment wasn't written exclusively for ignorant racists to prove their ignorance...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:37 PM

Sorry, "country and western music at the very least here" doesn't mean much..rather, for most people it is that form of association. One school I worked in..we had a big end of term music production. The head, non racist, but historian suggested we decorate the hall with flags, we had Texas flags, Mexican flags, Confederate flags,Stars and stripes all over the place. you could not acuse us of being racially motivated in flying the flag (Ignorant?...maybe in the light of some of the comments posted) but our kids researched and made the flags, then we got some cheap ones on e-bay as well for the backdrop. Bear in mind that over 50% of our school were asian, Indian sub continent, African-carribean, with a similar mix of staff.(By the way when they did ww2 we didn't hang swastikas, but the kids did draw german soldiers and swastikas on their models and paintings if they were depicting aspects of Nazi Germany).

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM

"But dont those same Historical Sites sell those very same flags in their souvenir shops?" A friend of mine has visited many USA civil war battle fields and bought flags and other souverniers back that were from both sides. Cos he bought a rebel flag doesn't make him racist (I'm not aware he is and I've know him for over 35 years..he's never even told a risque joke in all that time)
Over here in the UK the Confederate flag has just about the same significance as the Jolly Roger".

That is quite true. Disney makes a fortune out of the popularity of Pirates, completely ignoring most of the less nice traits they displayed and on the 'Cat, "Talk like a pirate days" and in lots of places it gets big support

There is an Alamo re-enactment in the USA....I don't suppose the Mexicans matter though?

I do agree re-enactment is to some extent playing "Cowboys and Indians"...When I was a kid in England it was Knights in armour, King Arthur, Battle of Hastings etc, then WW2, cowboys and indians etc, but I grown up now (almost, at 60 years) and have "played" steam railway preservation and musician

But the rebel flag in the UK is used for all sort of meanings...certainly "Rebel" (against what..you choose) It's worn by a lot of bikers..without racist connotations. To my own knowledge it was worn large on his back by a guy in our club (When I rode m/cycles big time) who was called Mo.

By the way, he was a practicing Muslim.

"Whenever I've seen it in the UK it's been associated with racists and NF/BNP types, to the extent that I would deliberately shun it, and regard anyone who displayed it as dubious.". Don't think that was true in Mo's case !!

Does this idea only hang true in the northern states?

What about singers who sing "Rebel songs" as part of a folk performance? Tom Petty (Not folk) nearly always had that flag as a backdrop and even a coat with it as a lining.

I would suggest MTed, that very few people in the UK would have any idea of that 1948 declaration and it is very well associated at McGrarth says, country and western music at the very least here.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

"...the American Civil War, it's still too close to now. ...I can just about stomach the Crimean Wars, but anything later smacks of Walter Mittyism and vicarious prejudice.

Crimean War 1853-1856
American Civil War 1860-1865.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM

"There's a reason the U.S. National Park Service doesn't allow these travesties on National Battlefield or National Historic Sites."

But dont those same Historical Sites sell those very same flags in their souvenir shops?
Over here in the UK the Confederate flag has just about the same significance as the Jolly Roger - so it probably just means that you are a rebel.
Against what? you may ask
What have you got? is the answer. :-)

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:02 PM

"Civil War Re-enactment" is a childish oxymoron. Unless you're going to issue live ammunition to both sides.

What you have is folks playing cowboys and Indians & trivializing the experience of warfare & the real participants therein.

There's a reason the U.S. National Park Service doesn't allow these travesties on National Battlefield or National Historic Sites.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM

Well, let's take a music break.

Si Kahn has a great song, "Gone, Gonna Rise Again." I never knew when I first heard it that this is ALSO a southern-longing for-old-times phrase and all that entails-- slavery, etc. But I think Kahn's song is NOT about that. Or is it? Or isn't it?

I think his song is about the complicated, messy part of loving one's homeland.

But I would ask him before judging him. Just from that one song-- never mind what else I now know about him.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

In this case there surely must be a parallel with re-enactors who re-enact WW2 battles or similar
To be honest I've got a big problem with that. Like the American Civil War, it's still too close to now. Anyone who wants to dress up as a Panzergrenadier or whatever is deeply suspect in my eyes, just as anyone who waves the Confederate flag is suspect.
As far as re-eneactment goes, I can just about stomach the Crimean Wars, but anything later smacks of Walter Mittyism and vicarious prejudice.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:17 PM

Just a question, How do you view it when worn by re-enactors of the civil war period both in the USA and the states? Doesn't it take on a different perspective? If no-one represented the side of the confederacy then it wouldn't be much of a re-enactment. In this case there surely must be a parallel with re-enactors who re-enact WW2 battles or similar?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Well, I grew up and continue to live in the South and there ain't no such thing as "No Nate, Heritage"... It's hate... No two ways about it...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Whenever I've seen it in the UK it's been associated with racists and NF/BNP types, to the extent that I would deliberately shun it, and regard anyone who displayed it as dubious.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM

As a current official symbol, any national flag primarily "means" the nation it represents, with or without warts. (The warts are mainly visible beyond the nation's boundaries.) As a mute symbol, one can invest a flag with whatever deeper meaning history and society will support.

The Confederate States flag represents no current nation. As a result, it "means" on the one hand whatever those who fly it want it to mean. On the other hand it's going to mean something quite different - perhaps vastly different - to other people with different experiences.

The sign linked by McG of H is a great example of what I mean. In the American South the "rebel flag" is often taken as merely a regional symbol. Of course the "takers" are almost entirely white people who, at best, have a limited imagination and like the idea of being "rebels" of one sort or another. They like to think the War Between the States was fought not so much over slavery as it was to keep the Yankees out of their hair. During the War, most citizens of the white North were as racist as those of the white South. They just drew the line at owning slaves, partly because the North didn't have big plantations growing cotton, indigo, and tobacco, the crops that made slavery the most profitable.

I never assume that a Confederate flag must be a racist statement. Of course I never dismiss the possibility either.

For the sake of contrast, when I see the Union Jack flying in the U.S., I *never* assume it's a statement that the Queen wants the Colonies back. It could be - but that would be extremely weird. I think.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:09 PM

The thing is, most of the racist oppression that has happened in the USA has been under the flag of the United States. The same way that moist of the colonial oppression under the British Empire has been under the Union Flag.

Those are indeed reasons for a lot of people to feel uneasy about those flags - but it's wrong to assume that when people display them, that is what they are celebrating.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Thanks, Mick.

And I am not arguing with YOU, but not every situation is a fight. Sometimes it's an arm around a shoulder, a soft question, a quiet conversation... a long, hard cry.

One way oppression works is that it inflames people past the moment to think about what is the actual, immediate opportunity at hand, to seek peace. Sometimes that means that the apologist propaganda you describe so well-- which is deliberate and intentional-- has bamboozled a recipient.

And most folks are somewhere in that continuum. Not here, but "out there" in the 3D world, that's where they are.

To ask a person, "What does that flag mean to you?" as an actual, interested (neutral) question creates a completely different response than the reaction created by an accusatory tone.


Case in point-- the interesting mindset-breaking chat I had once with a rigid, religious-right pastor out on his sidewalk one day, about abortion. (Via pre-birth memories.) The mindset-breaking chats I've had with/from gay friends at different times in my own life. The life-changing orientation-correction about an apect I'd not known, about racism.... this is one way people do grow and do change.


If people are ever going to learn, first they have to be reached. Sometimes reaching someone works better without the fight.

I'm glad for your ability to fight the fight, Mick, and I think about that often-- the need for different gifts among a people. But there is also a place for the softer approach, and in MOST people's daily lives it's seldom an either/or proposition.

~S~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM

The Confederate Army flag was the familiar blue X on a red field but was, for some reason, square rather than rectangular.   The flag of the political entity which attempted to withdraw from the United States, over the issue of slavery among other things, was very different in appearance.   However, when the Ku Klux Klan was founded by Confederate military veterans in 1865, they adopted the military flag rather than the actual flag of the Confederacy. (The first Klan formed in Tennessee, so it would have been reasonable for them to have used the state militia version of it.) Thus the irrevocable association of what we now (erroneously) call the Confederate flag with racism, bigotry and hate rather than with the very real heroism of many men who fought for the South.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Here's a picture where maybe it means something slightly different...

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:23 PM

Jesus H.---

On the website cited by the disingenuous Mr Ted (wch, by the by, is a Sons Of Confederate Veterans site), please note the upper-left quadrant of the "Stainless Banner", "2nd National Flag" and others etc, etc, etc. of which the symbol in question is a constituent part.

ALSO note the following on the Confederate Battle Flag from the same site (emphasis mine):

Quote: " After several incidents of battlefield confusion at Manassas, the staffs of Generals Joseph Johnston and Pierre Beauregard submitted designs for a distinctive banner to fly over the Confederate Army in Northern Virginia to set it distinctly apart from the U.S. Stars and Stripes. The design submitted by General Beauregard's staff was selected as the official banner, due mainly to its simpler design. Conceived on the field of battle for the noblest of reasons, to save the lives of their comrades, the Confederate Battle Flag flew proudly over every battlefield for the next four years, until being furled finally at Appomatox in April 1865."

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Horse puckey! There is no discussion as to what the flag represents. There are those apologists (I am not including you in this, Susan) who attempt to rewrite the definition to suit there own prejudices. It was a symbol of segregationists, and it has become the flag of the bigots and racists. We must never, IMO, allow anyone to lend any legitimacy to this type of thought and apologism, or we open the door to rationalizing racist actions.

Mick

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

... yes.... but no one can assume that every person waving it knows their history, and more than one can assume any person of color knows slavery history. These cultural icons, no matter how painful in their origin, are getting watered down thru time.

Seriously-- I have several times had the deeply odd experience of explaining some of these historical facts and symbols to people of color whose upbringing purposely did not include them.

~S~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM

The flag that Flags of the Confederacy

The flag that is being discussed here was never the official flag of the Confederate States--it was used as a battle flag used by the Tennessee Militia, and it was used as a naval jack--in reality, it has become famous because it was adapted as the official insignia of the States Rights Democratic Party in 1948. They broke away from the Democratic Party on the issue of racial segregation, which they spelled out in the Platform of the States Rights Democratic Party , as follows:

4. We stand for the segregation of the races and the racial integrity of each race; the constitutional right to choose one's associates; to accept private employment without governmental interference, and to learn one's living in any lawful way. We oppose the elimination of segregation, the repeal of miscegenation statutes, the control of private employment by Federal bureaucrats called for by the misnamed civil rights program. We favor home-rule, local self-government and a minimum interference with individual rights.

5. We oppose and condemn the action of the Democratic Convention in sponsoring a civil rights program calling for the elimination of segregation, social equality by Federal fiat, regulations of private employment practices, voting, and local law enforcement.

6. We affirm that the effective enforcement of such a program would be utterly destructive of the social, economic and political life of the Southern people, and of other localities in which there may be differences in race, creed or national origin in appreciable numbers.



It was nothing less than the official symbol of segregation--

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Very popular with Cork GAA fans, as you know, McG of H!

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM

In England, when you see it on a market stall, or a T-shirt it seems to mean a preference for American Country Music, without any racist implications.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

It brings images of the KKK and modern Nazis and skin heads to my mind...

As it should.

Is it a harmless symbol of rebelion?

Hardly. Although some will employ this lame excuse.

Is it a racist symbol?

Without a doubt..

Its also the symbol of those who took up arms against the government of the United States in 1861. Look up the definition of "treason".

Its also the symbol of those who perpetrated the 'War Against The Blacks' from 1865 thru the eras of Black Codes & lynchings & thru the Civil Rights Movenment of the 60's & down to the present day. Also of the Sons of the Confederacy, the KKK and other such hate groups.

It should have been consigned to history's scrap heap long ago, and those who display and defend it in this day and age should be ashamed.
Assuming they have any shame.



Those who display it

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

The meaning varies with the person waving it. No short answer.

~S~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM

It's the same reason that the fleur de lis is plastered all over Quebec. Sentimental hangovers from history.
Stew

Subject: Rebel Flag meaning
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

Today I passed a picket line in Port Hope, Ontario and was surprised to see a Confederate flag being carried by one of the picketers. What is the meaning of the Confederate flag these days? It brings images of the KKK and modern Nazis and skin heads to my mind, since it is often seen in photos of their rallies and meetings. It also brings to mind the Dukes Of Hazard and "good ole boys".
What does it mean to you? Is it a harmless symbol of rebelion? Is it a racist symbol? Is it just a fad?