Max is taking action

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:21 PM

The message that I left for Gargoyle was simply to have him call me to discuss the complaints and accusations that I personally recieved. His membership was not canceled, I did not ask or tell him to go away or even to tone down. I merely intercepted his account to get him my message, which he got at 8:48pm EST last night. If very clearly stated to simply call me, giving him the opportunity to explain to me what he thinks is going on. He chose not to do that and instead publicly ridicule me and the mudcat and dodge and deny the fact that he crossed the line, and says he'll just leave the mudcat, without calling me. What does that tell us?

My only regret in this situation is making it a public issue, but he still would not have called me, and he would have likely made it a public issue. In the 3+ years the Mudcat has been around, this is only the second situation like this (the first one I dealt with privately), and I think that is a pretty good record. I am sorry this has happened at all, I am sorry that I have to worry about this stuff, and I am sorry that I feel it necessary to act as a leader in probably the best example of a self governing body in history. I learned something here, and I will keep that with me should an issue like this ever arise again.

And gargoyle, the invitation is still open to call me, that's all I wanted all along.

And one more thing. This is the last message to this thread, issue dead. Any message posted to this thread after this one will be deleted by me. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:55 AM

Thank you Max....for the decision and the process.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Easy Rider
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:49 AM

Thank you, Max.

It's obvious that you have our overwhelming support for some control over people who would abuse this forum or its participants.

There are many kinds of violence and abuse, physical, verbal, emotional. All of them are abhorrent. Many people, usually the abusers, suffered some degree of abuse as children. One of you, I think Harpgirl?, is a psychologist, so you understand how damaging child abuse can be.

My late father taught me, when I was younger, that any time you resort to violence or abuse, in an argument, you have LOST the argument. Whatever right you may have had is GONE. This is primarily a forum for IDEAS. Personal attacks detract from the discussion and have no place in it. There ARE absolute standards, for how we can be expected to treat other people, and we CAN be required to adhere to them.

EZR

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:43 AM

Gargoyle,

Your free speech arguements are misplaced. This forum is equivalent to a newspaper, and Max as editor is excersizing his free press rights in making decisions about what to publish. As I said in a previous post there are two elements to freedom of speech and freedom of the press. The first is being able to say or publish what you want, but the second the right not to be forced to say or publish something just because some other individual or agency tells you to. So in this case, those who submit to the forum enjoy their full free speech rights by being able to write and say what they want and to freely ask Max to publish it, and Max and the Mudcat are fully excersizing thier free press rights by reserving the right to decide whether or not to agree to the request.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:23 AM

Occasionally, ROFLMAO (Rolling on the Floor Laughing My Ass Off).

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:10 AM

GD&WVVF... grinning, ducking and walking very, very fast.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:06 AM

FYI = for your information
AKA = also known as

W.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Margo
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 10:58 AM

Paul, I've been able to firure out the following:

IMHO= In my humble opinion IMO= in my opinion NOI= No offence intended LOL= laughing out lout LMAO= Laughing my ass off BTW= By th way

I know I've forgotten some, Please finish the list, someone.

Gargoyle, It seems to me that your whole complaint is that you think that we should talk strictly music. With you, I would, because that's what you want. But I like talking about life with everyone else here. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 10:00 AM

it's .Gargoyle now posting (don't know whether this actually did the trick). So one might say you're missing the point, Annap (GRIN)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:39 AM

Ummm..if Gargoyle is banned, how is he posting? Am I missing something?

annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:32 AM

WyoWoman, you said a mouthfull about the attention we pay to bullies. If memory serves me properly, Gibbon said the following in his book, Decline and fall of the Roman Empire:

So long as mankind shall continue to bestow more liberal applause upon their destroyers than upon their benefactors, the thirst for military glory shall forever be the vice of most exalted men.

Gibbon was referring to Roman emperors, but the main point is that the quickest way to "influence" people is by bullying them. It's usually the people who are the most frightened who do the most frightening of others. And even more so on the internet, where a weak little man can feel "strong" by hurting others behind his cloak of anonymity and an invented personna.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:17 AM

It's a shame, but I feel no different than I did with Shambles and Martin. When I am under fire, I feel the need to go to the hill, sit and ponder. When one is being attacked, it is important to realize what part of the attack is justified. Gargoyle never got this. But reflection also produces resolve as to what parts of ones philosophy one wishes to stand by. As much as I miss Martin and Shambles, their decision to leave instead of staying and contributing, disappoints me. But I wish them well, and believe it or not, I wish Garg well. I thought, for the most part, that he challenged us intellectually in a unique way. But his inability to see that he crossed the line, and that he attacked in personal ways made the outcome inevitable.

See you at the tavern, or around the campfire,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: WyoWoman
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 08:01 AM

In this, as in so much of life, I simply cannot believe the energy and attention devoted to bullies. The distinction, as I believe has been mentioned on this or another thread, is not just that someone disagrees, but that s/he feels the need to try and poison the one(s) with whom s/he disagrees.

We end up with laws and law enforcers not because of the majority, who are generally content to live and let live, but to manage the unruly minority who, in my experience, won't stop pushing until they've backed someone in the corner and forced him/her to exert over them sufficient power to control them. It's an infantile behavior, but one you can depend upon in just about any human community.

So why all the lamenting? Someone got out of control, refused to institute his own internal controls and forced a decent, kind-hearted person, in this case Max, into coming down on him with a hammer. We all make choices, and Gargoyle's choice was to be a brat. When he learns to play with others, the door, as I understand it, is open.

Leadership means stepping up to the plate and making those calls when the time comes. You've proved yourself to be a good leader, Max, and I respect it.

Now, let's lay on.

WW

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 07:40 AM

Harpgirl,

If Gargoyle was a trusted person here at the Mudcat, then they would no longer be trustworthy in my opinion and the fate would still be deserved.

Gargoyle, him or herself, was not a totally bad contributor to the Mudcat. There were many times when Gargoyle added information or opinions that added to the Mudcat. However, his or her unwillingness to alter behavior and the rather bizarre self-interpretation of his or her motives given in the posts on this thread indicate that Gargoyle's intent is more to destroy that with which she or he disagrees, rather than to just state his or her disagreement.

Do you know something we don't know? Weren't you the one who asked Gargoyle all those pointed questions about college in Orono? My memory sometimes falls short and I haven't time now at work to search.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 07:36 AM

...this discussion reminds me of a principle I mention in my practice which I know as "requisite variety". That is, the person with the most flexible response controls the outcome of the communication...but Damn, Max....this discussion is so fascinating I have been neglecting my work...I work for myself and my boss says I have not been getting enough work done! So I am not posting again until after 5pm!...harpgirl

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:45 AM

I'm sorry too, but it seemed as if G was deliberately provoking this for some reason. Max carries the can so he must have the right to act to preserve his creation and prevent respected contributors from being driven out.
Another site I look at says this
"The service is moderated and any correspondence published will be subject entirely to the whims and prejudices of the Webmaster. Material may be edited if, in the opinion of the Webmaster, it is turgid, overlong, ungrammatical or boring. Any hint of defamatory or untrue statements will result in instant consignment to the trash bin."
In an unmoderated service we all share responsibility for the tone. The guidelines above would have stifled much that is interesting on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:35 AM

Hi Roger
Serious question...How would you feel if you thought gargoyle was merely the invention of a trusted person here at the cat??????harp

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:29 AM

With regret, I must note that I am happy to see Gargoyle go. His behavior has been beyond the bounds and I will trust Max that he is not making up or exaggerating the other offenses. May Gargoyle create a site of his own choosing for I suspect that is the only site that will please him.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:45 AM

Max, you've done the right thing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: _gargoyle
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:32 AM

OK.OK.....

So long farewell, sich verabscheiden, goodbye,
I go, I leave, I swiftly flee, I fly

Goodbye
Goodbye
Goodbye

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: NSC
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:13 AM

Well done Max.

I have been visiting this site for over 12 months and have only just registered as a member.

Got the T shirt last week incidentally.

I was sick for a while and hadn't realised Martin had left us. He is a personal friend and I will advise him of your actions Max, when next we meet.

This is one magnificent forum. Do keep it going and I know that Frank McGrath joins me in these comments. You have our full support.

George Henderson

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 02:19 AM

Gargoyle..it is evident that you are an intelligent individual. You say that your agressive postings are intended to get The Mudcat back "on track",i.e. to folk and blues. But on the other hand I have seen you post to many BS threads, and I believe that despite yourself you find them, and the personal interactions on the forum, interesting. I realize that part of your problem with some Mudcatters is their liberal political beliefs and their willingness to voice them. These are probably not people you would encounter in the course of your everyday life. Me either.Politically, there are many here that I disagree with- but such a thing should be done with respect, as in any circle of friends. And that IS ultimately what the Mudcat has become, no matter what you or I or even Max might like it to be. There is certainly room for disagreement, and there will always be someone in any group that you will flat dislike, but you cross the line when you insult or demean them. And I think that you realize that you did that. If you are now sorry that you did that, then perhaps you should offer that/those persons a sincere apology. If you aren't sorry, then I believe you don't belong here.

Sorry to preach, Garg, but you DID ask.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:44 AM

Gargoyle, I don't want you banned from the threads. I told Max that last night. But I do resent the nasty tone in which you have addressed me over the 14 months I have been here. You had toned it down (but still managed a certain amount of sarcasm when addressing me), but for the last few weeks you have become increasingly insulting. I suppose I brought it on myself with the "a real creep, a thread creep, the worst kind" in describing Fongoul in the True Detective Stories thread. I thought you'd see the humor in that, since that has always been your major complaint against me...in a way, I was making fun of myself, the original thread creep.

As for your recent assaults, they have rarely had anything at all to do with chastising thread creep as you seem to think. Look back at the things you have said to me and about me and the threads in which you said them. My postings had always been to the subject of the thread. I know you were bothered when I missed your first message in the converstional songs thread: I was thinking about posting that song and my eyes jumped past your naming it to your posting of the last verse. Mine was a simple mistake, perhaps of a kind of which I have been guilty too often, but certainly not intentional rudeness as you interpreted it.

When you attacked me in the Detective series and in the Aussie/US bands threads, I was posting to the subject. Same with the humor thread and the Police vs. Striking Workers thread. I think I have become very careful about sticking to the subject of the thread. I know you are bothered by so-called BS threads, but you're gonna have to live with them. They're here to stay. So why don't you mosey on over to the pub--I'll buy you whatever Gargoyles drink (other than blood--I don't think Leej has that on tap).

One more thing, if you want a poll, just check the responses to this thread (but don't go away: please, just get off my back and be nicer to a few others). BTW, nice trick to get past Max's ban on your cookie. --seed

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Craig
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:11 AM

Max. I applaud you for handleing this matter the way in a manner you see fit. We are but guests in your house. As such we should respect you and all others who enter into this domain. We can argue without being crass or rude. I thank you Max for what you have given us. May it last a good long while.

Craig

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: alison
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:05 AM

IMO = in my opinion
IMHO = in my honest(or humble) opinion

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Paul Jay
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:46 PM

Max and All

What does IMHO, IMO or whatever MEAN? I cannot for the life of me figure out what has caused all this fuss. I don't read every thread so maybe I missed something. Will someone PLEASE define (with examples of past threads) what your talking about? If this is about free speach remember the guy who said (more of less) "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with my life". Our constitution guarentees this. This does not mean he/she has the right to holler "FIRE" in a crowded building, but it does mean that he/she can say all the sexest, racest, hateful stuff they want and we can just ignore it. These people usally say the things they do in order to get attention. As I mentioned earlier I haven't a clue as to what was said,BUT they sure are getting the attention, and I'm sure they are loveing it.

I say IGNORE THEM AND THEY WILL GO AWAY.

Paul

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Mudjack
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:14 PM

I've never seen anyone 86'd that didn't have it coming. But usually tried to stay clear of those establishments. Our cleansing of the undesirable is sad and unfortunate to the Cafe. Lets get back to the business of having fun, and not at the expense of someone else.
Max, your actions were un-avoidable and Thank You for bringing it to a quick halt by what ever means it takes.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: .gargoyle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:14 PM

Oh harp!!!!....

I am VERY sure that the majority of my rebuffs have been directed towards the "testosteron filled" bombosities of a few males....and seldom (but on rare occasion) against those of the gentler-grace.

I have committed no felonious crime, current, or in the past.

However, if it must be.....I will GLADLY PERISH for the cause the of "free speech." (and return in another form)

If the Mud has fallen.....then surely, no place... in cyberspace... is safe haven for those of kindred spirit.

sincerly,

gargoyle (nope, sorry, I don't play polkas....but I do DANCE them.)

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: John Hindsill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:52 PM

Max, I am sorry you felt you needed to take tha action you did. I am very conservative on speech, almost absolutist, as my postings might indicate to those who read them. However, when someone makes threats, or the equivalent of obscene calls, that is the equivalent of yelling fire and should not be tolerated, so I concur in your action.---John

p.s. I guess I tuned out messages I didn't like so never knew such postings were here.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:50 PM

.gargoyle
....If you haven't cyber stalked anyone (on personal e-mail, with threats) I would vote to let you stay...although I resent your mysogynistic remarks....the cat is definitely back to more music though....harp

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:40 PM

I'm convinced now. This is a terrible joke gone terribly wrong. Now what?

Chet

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: .gargoyle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:23 PM

MAX

Before you judge, walk back five posts on every thread....most "attacks" were an attempt to "get the MUD back on topic."

So sorry you have been out touch. Every store needs a FULL-TIME manager...consider your priorities......you lost them when you "went commercial."

The honorable, and graciously humble Mr. B.Seed should NOT be barred from the forum even if I am.

Censorship is one of the signs of a totalatarian regime....be carefull, someone might think that "YOU" asked for the "Horst Wessel Song."

"Sige Hiel"
gargoyle

Put it to a VOTE (let's be "democratic".... if by midnight (MC-time) July 31st, 1999 more people have voted to RETAIN the "Hot-Vitrol-Cajun-Pepper of gargoyle in their chowder"....let "the gargoyle" stay ...under the current nomelculur.

I give a pledge to NOT interfer with the vote....and promise to abide by the vote.

AT LEAST GIVE IT TO THE "thumbs-up, thumbs-down" OF THE GLADITORIAL CONTESTS OF ANCIENT ROME.

[[Some nose's may have been "tweaked" in the past ten days... but notice....we ARE back on a more MUSICAL thread.]]

Oh Ceasar Maximus....set my fate before the citizens of the MudCat Forum.

Set up Two Threads "gargoyle goes" "gargoyle stays"

Heil Max,,,,,,Heil Max,,,,,,Heil Maximus Ceasar

sincerly,

gargoyle

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Banjoman_CO
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:23 PM

Bravo Max!!! I feel that being a member of Mudcat(although a relatively new one) is a great privilege. There are many wonderful people here and I value our short relationship. But as with any privilege there is also responsibility. It is tragic when someone continually abuses the privilege. I know that this was a hard decision for you, but I really admire you for taking that responsibility. Let this be a reminder to all of us to "think before we speak er... type. Again, thanks.

Fred

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:23 PM

...Max...I can't render an opinion without knowing who was restrained and what the reasons were...harpgirl

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:02 PM

Max,

It is your forum and I trust you and will respect what you are trying to accomplish. I am with Dick on this, but I don't put into it what you do. You have been amazing to my way of thinking and I hope you know how much affection that I hold you, Dick and Susan in. I will go on faith that this will work, but I am nervous about it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:59 PM

.......of course I need help spelling it........that'd be "POLICING"

catspaw

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:55 PM

Art.....the word finally came to me. We are discussing polcing a situation, not censoring.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From:
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:48 PM

Max, I just found this thread. Thanks for taking this obviously difficult step. I was trying to advocate what you are doing now in some posts that, I hope, were not overbearing or rude.

Onward.

Art

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Dani
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:36 PM

Ironically, my general paranoia has kept me from becoming a full-fledged member of the Mudcat, thought I've been reading and posting for a couple of years now.

Max, you have my heartfelt thanks and support for whatever you think is necessary to keep the Mudcat swimming.

I would liken the situation to any good neighborhood tap: a certain amount of bad behavior is tolerated in any community, usually pointed out up in a good-natured way. The well-loved regular who has a few too many one night is usually pretty quickly forgiven her or his transgressions. But any bartender worth her whiskey knows when a bad character has walked in the door, and watches with care. And when the opportunity presents itself, nobody in their right mind would hesitate to grab the scruff of the neck and shove out the door, with the other hand on the phone.

Let's not kid ourselves. Nothing's going to keep the wolf from the door, but you DON'T have to let him in and you DON'T have to walk home alone.

Dani

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Angus McSweeney
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:30 PM

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I just came back two weeks ago from a long hiatus. Trouble in Paradise! I'm hopeful that all's right with the world again. Thanks, Max.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:16 PM

There is no doubt in my mind that we'll know him if he comes back.

NOW, ENOUGH ABOUT THIS. BACK TO THE BEAUTY OF MUDCAT.

He is still being here. Time to let him/her/it go!!

Sorry. I have this mother thing...

I love you all.

annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 07:57 PM

Max, you've done the right thing. This is a cyber community, and as such, most of us are really not able to deal with really hostile, harmful individuals the way we hope we would do if something like this happened at our church, folk club, or other face-to-face communities. Therefore we really do need you to make the judgement call and I thank you for doing it this time- I've been very distressed at the upheaval in this wonderful place!
Allison

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 06:42 PM

One comment and one prediction.

All social groups come down to this eventually. Sometimes it takes a long time, sometimes it happens right away. It usually needs a group to be large, but not always. Impasses are a naturally occuring feature of group behavior. You get enough people together and eventually some of them are going to fight, or misbehave, or challenge the generally accepted code of conduct. Eventually some of these situations will come to point where the group members will come to a choice between three options, put up with the irritation, quit the group, or designate a system to ajudicate the impasse.

Sometimes a group can resolve these conflicts, and avoid the impasses for a long enough time to believe that there's something special about the group that will prevent them from occuring. Its pretty to think so, but nobody's ever figured out a way to avoid this stuff forever. Eventually you'll come across a person or persons that just wont back down.

Its to Mudcats credit, (and Max's) that its gone so well for so long.

But all groups come to a point where they have to decide whether to let an intractable disruption persist, or to exclude it.

There's a gospel song, the sentiment's a little harsh for my theololgy, and its not what I call the appropriate first response, but it kind of fits the issue.

There's a brother in the church (there's a brother in the church)

An he won't do right (an he won't do right)

Tell me what you gonna do?

Take him to the door and take your foot and kick him out and let the church roll on.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 06:41 PM

Max, I think you have handled it is the best way it could have been done. I hope he calls you, agrees to curb his aggression, and comes back, for his positive contributions have been many. --seed

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 06:26 PM

Max, Thanks. Just that a few postings aroused my concerns along that line. I expect you spotted them. I don't really spend my time twitching.

Penny

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 06:20 PM

Penny, I should not divulge the secrets within, but there are many ways to track one's activity on the cat.

For the most part, the most effective techniques are a combination of my dandy technology and the observations of you catters. I think that may be enough to deter most.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:57 PM

Max, forgive me for raising a slightly paranoid point, but I have been dealing with a "nasty" in another situation entirely, which has warped my interpretations briefly. I can see that you may have ways of identifying a problem poster under an alternative name, but suppose the posting is made under the guise of a member in good odour? Can you tell when I post as a member, with the cookie operating from when I post from the other profile on this computer, without it? Or from the Internet cafe down the road? Or it isn't me at all, and from somewhere completely different?

Penny

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Sheye
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:48 PM

Thank you, Max, for your warm hospitality and graciously accepting me into your home. It has been time well spent (although my employer may have disagreed when I got carried away here).

I look forward to continued laughs and musical learning and am STILL waiting for Joe to drop by with those cookies. Double chocolate.

We are all guests at the 'Cat.

Sheye, who has been here WAY too much today

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:47 PM

Well, I feel much relieved. So I guess I can continue to act like my usual foolish self and not worry about being cast out into the cold. Whew.

How about a Mudcat-wide hug?

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:36 PM

Look everyone. You have to understand that I am talking about behavior that is carefully controlled borderline crime. Unless you are used to making threats and using the information and technology within the Mudcat to stalk, hurt or scare people you have no fear of crossing a line.

I have a certain liability publishing this Web site. And I am not really talking about a legal or civil liability, more a moral liability. If someone figured out someone elses address on the Mudcat, then went and killed them, I would be less worried about the civil/criminal implications of my site, but that sheer guilt and karma that would come down on me for this to happen because of me. Though, perhaps the dead person's family would sue me like they did to the Jenny Jones show.

Yes, in time this may have all blown over. But no less than 6 people personally contacted me about a problem, and I did not feel right telling them that I will not act on it because it will blow over.

Everyone relax, I am talking about much more serious stuff than heated debates or strong opinions and misconstrued wit. If you talk about bombs in an airport, your going to go to jail, simple. If on the Mudcat you say things like "I know where you live", or "I'm gonna get you" I have a moral and civil obligation to do something about it. If it's misunderstood wit, I am giving you the chance to call me and explaining that to me. Also, I must see a patern, not an isolated incident. Nobody worry, this in not censorship. I want to feel safe running this site, and I want you to feel safe being here.

dick: I did not kick anyone off, just asked them to call me to discuss the situation.

Mathew B: The Line is very similar to the laws of most nations (ie, murder, harrasment, stalking). Something tells me you don;t have to worry.

annap: For the most part, yes, they can just log in under a new name, but you would be surprised at the various ways I have to detect and prevent such stuff. I can not make it impossible, but I can do a lot.

And one last thing, my official comment on the BS issue: I like it. Art=Music=Life=BS

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:29 PM

Forgot to say (another ms. know it all:-): there comes a time when one no longer wants to turn the other cheek, so to speak. A bully will continue until someone sticks up for themselves and they have to draw in their horns. To not respond, repeatedly, didn't seem to do any good. Still and all I think most of the Mudders kept their tempers very well.

I'm off to the Tavern, too. Those amarettos are tasting pretty good!

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM

But seriously, how could you stop Mr Viscious from continually re-entering as someone new and continuing his assault?

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:21 PM

Oh annap, I love you too.

So, how was your gathering?

- Matthew (tangent maker) B

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:18 PM

IMO (Ms now-it-all here again) censorship is far different than putting a halt to stalking. I was going to ask "what happens if I say something stupid in the heat of the moment?" Well, no matter how stupid I get, I'm never going to get so mad at someone I follow them around from thread to thread just to harass them - which is what I think happened here. There's no way in hell this could be considered censorship. Dick, what he was doing was not simply starting arguments or ruffling feathers - he was scaring people.

I honestly think the way the group as a whole reacted to the above person was more of a reason for Shambles' leaving than what that person did, but I could be wrong.

One guy stopped in and did the equivalent of thanking us for wasting his time. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't judge a forum's worth from the postings I read during one visit than I'd judge a conversation from hearing a couple of minutes of conversation.

Sheesh - am I grumpy, or what? I'm heading to the Tavern for a drink and a hug.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:16 PM

I applaud your decision, Max, and do think that something needs to be done. I should hope that the actions you described are effective. I too feel, as Catspaw says, that a free thinking individual has a hard time NOT throwing his opinion into a discusion, but I feel the majority of us know when and HOW to put in our two cents. Long live the Mudcat, and may all who take part in it feel at home and comfortable with what we do here!

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:15 PM

Dick, and others,

The problem I see with simply not posting after someone has laid out some bait is that such a person could effectively kill numerous threads that would have otherwise continued amicably. To continue to do that could have even more of a disruptive effect. So I see no better way to deal with such a situation than to nip it before it blossoms. The larger problem here was that this person didn't just stop at disrupting threads. There were many other nastinesses done by other means. For this reason, (and perhaps more for this than the other) I fully support Max's action and resultant policy. I have more to say but there's a thunderstorm brewing and I want to send this before it blows out the power.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:11 PM

Dear Max,

You have every right to do what you have done and I, for one, am glad of it. As a woman maybe I am more aware of the implications of such attacks as we've seen recently. I came to the conclusion that it would not be in my best interests to respond and I did remove my email address from the Mudcat, as a precaution only.

I like your criteria: that of everyone feeling safe and comfortable. Up until this last weekend, I did. I also felt very sad for the other people whom I knew were hurt or scared by the personal tone of the attacks.

For the critics who complain of not enough music threads, I would say I feel I am in good company, posting to the many with BS in their title: Art Thieme, Rick Fielding, Catspaw, Banjer, LEJ, Big Mick, .....all much more musicians than I'll ever dream of, yet enjoying the balance, as I do, of all of the discussions with music and without, although music does tend to get into any and all of the threads, which is as it should be, IMHO.

Free Forum does not have to include outright and vicious anarchy. Thank you Max, I am sorry I didn't contact you in a personal message before this.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:09 PM

To the above Mudcatters who said that maybe you crossed the line a time or two ... this is not about crossing lines ... this is about racism, anti-semitism, and theats. None of you have every cross THAT line ...

Max ... thank you and your volunteers ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:02 PM

I agree with Max. It makes me a little uncomfortable, and I wonder if maybe I have crossed the line a time or two myself, but I had no idea people were being threatened or stalked. We have to get Shambles and the other guys back. This thing is too good to lose.

How do we get them back, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:56 PM

As I stated with Art somewhere or another, I'd prefer to have some of Mudcat then none. Please understand folks that I'm a card carrying ACLU member, but that's another topic. Dick and many others have repeatedly, ad infinitum, ad nauseum (go ahead, add it up) said "Don't Post!!!" Problem being: This is such a verbal and opinionated bunch, it's almost a Catch-22. I debated all day about posting to Sham's thread even because I don't want to dignify the situation with any response...but if I don't, I let it go without saying what I should, but I don't want..................geez, whatajoke! Even Dick's posting above shows the irony of the situation. By posting he continues to do what he doesn't want and by my commenting I continue to do what neither of us wants and on and on.....................................Yeah, I know it's different, responding to a bully, but this whole situation still involves a response to ONE person.

Mudcat has for better or worse become more than music and I can but second Rick's opinions and feelings above. You know if any of you get a chance, you need to dig up one of Lenny's old routines about how we first got police. Do what you have to do Max, it's your site, your rules.....you're handling it well and if I don't trust your judgement, I'll go elsewhere. Hope to see you at the Tavern later......it's been a rough day with the "boys.".....But that too is another story. You can buy me a triple club soda and a WHOLE lime.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:52 PM

Matthew B,

We have all 'put our foot in it' at times. I don't see that anyone else need be concerned.

The 'line' is that which exists in ALL societies. 'We have to get along with one another'. We can and do forgive and accept quite a lot of mistakes, outbursts and differences of opinions, but if one is CONSISTENTLY NASTY, or percieved to be dangerous, then they will be ostracised.

This is Max's machine and he has the final say in whatever goes on here. It is up to us to make sure that Mudcat is something he want's to keep supporting (and paying for).

Bert.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:44 PM

Matthew, you would never be vindictive or mean. You can disagree without calling names or insulting personally. This person couldn't and refused all steps toward reconciliation from the injured party.

Dick, I don't think it's actually censorship. We couldn't have a discussion without an evil influence imposing itself in the conversation. It wasn't what was said, it was how it was said. The ideas this person had would have been accepted, if disagreed with, if not for the hate and evil behind it. That's not censorship, that's removing an an nonproductive influence.

There was no love or respect there or even simple human dignity. I hate censorship as much as you, (read my post in the censorship thread) but enough is enough!

He's even making YOU think of leaving us. That's not a good thing.

Love (but not for that party), annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:44 PM

dear Max, as I said to shambles I do not know what all this is about, why are they leaving mudcat???????

Hope they stay, all the best from me In Iceland. skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:25 PM

Max- I wish you'd reconsider. I divorced myself from the Irish Traditional Music List because they couldn't find any way of dealing with an annoying poster other than kicking him off; I think that free discussion means just that. Nobody's sadder to see people like Shambles and Martin leave than I am; I wish they'd reconsider. But the real problem is, IMO, all those people that rise to the bait and keep posting and posting and posting on threads that would die of their own accord if left alone. To my thinking, a little censorship is like a little pregnancy.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:15 PM

Well, Max, I see your point, but I wonder if I really know what you mean by "crossing the line" when I'm not really sure of where that "line" is.

Do you think you could draw us a map? Or more precisely, could you put together a "general guidelines for Mudcat behavior" thingie -- as is already common in many of the professional (e.g. computer programming) forums I belong to? 'Cause I'd hate to get thrown off the 'cat for trying to be witty (or at least half-witty).

While I must admit that I have put my foot in my mouth enough times to have a permanent footprint on my tongue, my intentions are never malicious, so I'd hate to be misunderstood.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:47 PM

Wow Max! Tough decision. Gosh I hope the only thing that ever inspires one of us to call you is "totally blatant single-entendre, nastiness".(and repeatedly, at that)
I love to talk, suggest, argue, and make jokes about folk music and folk singers (been doin' it for many years) but the enjoyment I've gotten from the "talkin', arguin', and especially the jokin" about current events, politics, sex, religion, and personal philosophies, is what makes Mudcat so special and ABSOLUTELY unique to me. People leave in the heat of passion...but they often come back (even if they do it anonymously for a while...it's a pride thing, I guess) 'cause this is Special. I'm sure the "Catters" you spoke privately to (whoever they are) realize this even more than I do, and felt that it was the only possible option. (I agree, for what it's worth) I just hope that it's a long time before another "blip" like this happens, and that anyone who's got a complaint will share it openly with the rest of us. That's worked in the year that I've been here, and from digging back a couple of years seems to be the way to go.
Appreciate all you've done.
Rick Fielding

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Melodeon
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:46 PM

forgot to add that the Mudcat tavern has restored all my faith in the forum it is great to feel so much friendship

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Margo
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:43 PM

Here here, Max. As I stated before, Government is a necessary evil. (Not that YOU're evil, dear Max!) I think you are acting appropriately.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Melodeon
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Max, As a relative newcomer to the forum I have been wondering recently what I have joined but the musical threads have kept me here, however some of the non musical threads are so interesting that I read those as well but I have been increasingly uncomfortable with them. I don't know Shambles but having read many of his postings he is obviously a person to be respected, I also do not have any idea who the person is that has been suspended but I trust your judgement on that score. I really hope that this is the first and only time that you have to make such a decision.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:36 PM

Gee, Max,

My first impression is that I am sorry it had to come to this. As I have mentioned before, I am adverse to rules as a solution to a human problem. I am not, however, an anarchist. I think there are many rules that exist to keep the ruled community in existance. I realize that the world is a far from perfect place. When the arms of the 'Cat are thrown wide open it is bound to get some of the flotsam and jetsam of humanity.

If you pulled who I think you pulled, I don't have any strong qualms about it. The person I have in mind still seemed to be trying to "pluck everyone's last nerve" (as they say here in Baltimore).

I imagine they will not call you. If they do, it should be quite an interesting call. Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that conversation (you don't really have flies on the wall, though, do you?).

My bottom line, Max, is that this site owes everything to you and I think that gives you the right to do as you see fit. I haven't met you in person (though I hope you're coming to the October Getaway), but you have struck me through your postings as a right decent chap. You have left a path back in for those who choose to take it.

I sure hope this works.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:30 PM

Max,

Can't the person you eliminated just come in and sign in as someone else?

I'm sorry you had to, but glad you did, take these steps.

Love,annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:21 PM

Do not put away your soap boxes. These efforts are to allow us to share our thoughts and feelings and opinions, not to diminish them. I am more interested in people feeling safe, and am most concerned with stalking behavior. I want people to feel safe using their names and talking about their families, etc. I am after those who make us feel unsafe and uncomfortable. I would never try to control the very strong opinions of you Catters. Don't worry, this is a subtle action that 99.9% will never have to worry about. I just thought I would share with you my thinking and efforts to keep this place fun and safe. So pull your soap boxes out and keep on preachin.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Den
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:17 PM

Sometimes somebody has got to say enough.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Tiger
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:13 PM

Geez, Max, I'm sorry you had to do that.

I'd hoped it would run it's course and just fizzle out, like a bad cold. I've been uncomfortable with a number of the forum posters lately, but I think tolerance for other's opinions (or ravings) is just one of the membership requirements in this electronic ether world.

Still, many of us can't resist rising for the bait when some wacko trolls his treble-hooked political lure past our noses. I guess there are still too many chips on too many shoulders, but I think it's getting better, overall.

Here's hoping we can come to our collective senses and muddle along without supervision.

.....Tiger (stealthily returning inflatable soapbox to desk drawer)

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:01 PM

Thanks, Dad. Sorry you have to take time off from work to look after the kids. But I guess it comes with being a parent.

Subject: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 02:55 PM

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the tone of the Mudcat lately. The Shambles leaving finally allowed me to come to some kind of conclusion about how to handle it from a Mudcat Administrator point of view. For one thing, I have marveled at the comradery and love and knowledge and friendship that the Mudcat has been. I have felt safe in meeting new people here and inviting them into my home. But something is changing.

To get to the point, I have decided to watch the threads with the help of some of the volunteers and communication with all Mudcat members to identify people who "cross the line". Obviously there is a lot of interpretation and gray area in determining this, but I am going to make it black and white. It's real simple. If I FEEL that you are not a positive factor in this community and/or said things to drive folks away or scare anybody, etc., your membership will be deactivated until you call me on the telephone to personally discuss the situation. I cannot let another fine person leave, and I cannot support a community where people are not comfortable sharing who they are and what the love, and I will not continue publishing the Mudcat if we cannot find a way to control it.

Last night, after discussing the situation with a few fellow catters, I have suspended a member's account. We will see where my theory leads us soon.

Just remember. Membership and even participation to this site is a privilege. I cannot control everything (believe it or not) but I can make it very difficult for people to use this site if I do not want them to.

Anyhow, I love all of you and am trying my best to maintain what I think was a miracle the first place. Please feel free to send me a Personal Message any time you think someone has crossed the line (please be thoughtful and tolerant though), for I cannot read every thread. Also, feel free to share with me any ideas you have to keep the peace. That's all for now.