BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows

Subject: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:15 PM

I notice that a Woman is now a member of the Red Arrows Jet acrobatic Team. This was made possible when the reverse facility on the planes were removed!!
Only joking Ladies
Al :)

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

It has often puzzled me as to why there are not more women in such activities. Aerobatics is maybe but a small part - but what about, for instance F1 or Indie racing? Surely the controls are the same for men or women and can be used equaly well by either sex. How come there are not more women in these fields? Is it male exclusivity or the fact that women are not as daft as us blokes? Just a thought - Not wanting to be contaversial or anything...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:06 PM

I think it still comes down to physical strength.
Jockeys always used to be men, but there are some very successful female jockeys now.
I have often wondered why females are not better musicians than men I know some are, but I mean in general.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:34 PM

Why? Because we were traditionally raised by society that says "no, you can't do that". Takes generations to overcome.

Even when I was in college, "girls" were told not to apply for the jobs for the men. The job board at the university financial aid had a line drawn down the center of it. I remember looking at that board for a job... on the left top was the label GIRLS, on the right, MEN. The jobs on the left were about $1.60/hr. The jobs on the right were $3 to $4/hr. The descriptions were things like, "looking for the right man as assistant manger". I bucked the trend by applying for a groundscrew job outside for the horticulture department. I was paid $1.68/hr. I found out at the end of the summer that the boys I worked with were paid more.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

LOL that should be "manager" and "grounds crew"

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:41 PM

This will add a whole new meaning to flying the slot position........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

She has red hair too...very fitting for the Red Arrows. I think the boys should dye their hair to match hers. :0)

Still, at least The Red Arrows will now be able to find their correct destination, instead of having to fly round in those constant circles, because Kirsty will simply get them all to pull over whilst she asks someone for directions.

Much simpler!

;0)

The Red Headed Red Arrow

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:36 PM

'LOL that should be "manager" and "grounds crew" '

I think 'ground screw' sounds much nicer, Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:25 AM

One slight mystery — the Times report [see clicky on Lizzie's post above] calls her Flight-Lt Kirsty Moore - yet in the pic she is distinctly wearing a Squadron-Leader's insignia. What is the truth of the matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:29 AM

BTW Lizzie - loved your post. Reminded me of a gr8 story by James Thurber called The Kerb In The Sky. Do you know it?

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:42 AM

I read somewhere that the female form can take more 'Gs' than the male before passing out.

D el G, a possible consideration why more girls don't apply themselves to dangerous occupations and hobbies is that they have more common sense! Generally.

The fact that they might have a break in their service for child-bearing wouldn't help much either, I imagine. Like everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:24 AM

Somebody in the RAF said there was a delay in selecting a woman for the Red Arrows because of the design of the existing G-suits!

Ace comment Lizzie by the way, describes my destination-finding habits to a tee.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM

Well done Lizzie, That's one each.
G-suits ? Wrong colour, non in size 12, It would look nice with a big wide belt,Too long, Too short, It would make me look fat, costs too much,wouldn't go with my new boots. !!
Guess who's just got back from shopping?
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:13 AM

For many years it was thought that excessive G would damage internal structures more on women pilots. General sexism was rife and women were considered unsuitable pilots because they menstruated and could have children. I remember seing comments about breasts weighing excessivley on the chest in high-G environments. No extra G was experienced between men;s legs!

The research was not known because they would not allow women to fly front-line fast jets. BUT some women were flying aerobatics in competition on prop, high performance aircraft and, as more women managed to get into the cockpit of commercial airlines (where they faced terrible sexism early on and conditions), attitudes changed. Women had bee in space and had strted getting accepted on Astronaut training. It became recognised that many female pilots were better than male counterparts as, not only had they had to deal with all the extra sexism and pressures that brought about, but they were almost tested to destruction when being checked out. Thankfully, while some sexism still exists, women are now treated far more favourably in the aviation industry generally. They are still vastly under represented in some areas though.

To be a Red Arrow you have had to be a fast jet pilot and served a couple of tours on a front line Squadron, so that was not possible at one point. Many have been instructors on various aircraft too. When women were first allowed into flight training in the RAF I think they were only allowed to fly low performance type aircraft, transports and helicopters. There are still not that many front line fast jet female pilots so getting to be one in the Rec Arrows really is a pinacle of achievement not just for the male pilots but certainly any female.

It's fantastic in reality. I wish this lady well but, not only that, I think it will be excellent as a recruitment tool for the RAF to show that women are appreciated and can have a career with them. They have for some time but this is 'in your face' proof. I cannot wait for next season and, for the future, maybe she will be able to be a Red Arrows leader!

Reds are Go!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dead Horse
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:13 AM

Is there any truth to the rumour that she flies the "pink one" with the teddy bear logo on it?

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

Isn't that what I said, Gurney?

Is it male exclusivity or the fact that women are not as daft as us blokes?

Confused of Salford...


D

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:27 PM

Looks like two bars on her epaulettes to me mate. It may be that the join between the two single bar flashes, looks like a third bar, which may confuse matters

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

Thanks John — think you are right looking again - but it does look a bit like that narrow middle bar that a Sq-Ldr would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

"It has often puzzled me as to why there are not more women in such activities...How come there are not more women in these fields? Is it male exclusivity..."

Well, after this
case you do have to think that maybe some jobs are exclusively male preserves because men don't want women there...

Fair play to Moira Cameron - she's a strong woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:21 PM

A Raven haired beauty.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:10 AM

I would have put being a beefeater high up the list of jobs that wimmin don't want to do as well. Wearing daft clothes. Being asked stupid questions by American and Japanese tourists all day long. Having to put up with that bloody Anne Boleyn weeping and wailing all night long...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:03 AM

She loves her job, daft clothes and all. And she has some great ghost stories!

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:40 AM

What's 'daft' about Yeomen Warder uniforms? I think they are smart and attractive and altogether beautiful. This is a folk site, FFS, & they are a fine part of our tradition. & don't knock our tourist industry either - you [whoever in GB is reading this] would be a lot worse off without it. & above all, a bit of sympathy & respect for that most oppressed & unfortunate woman Anne Boleyn, please — one of history's real unfortunates, the thought of whose fate at the hands of probably the greatest, most brutal, disgrace to our commonweal ever can still bring tears to my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

I love the kit personally. And Moira's best ghost stories are more to do with the two Princes murdered by Richard III than Anne Boleyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:01 PM

Just wondering why there are not more women in formula one... I was just thinking how you could persuade a woman that it is a good idea to sit in an uncomfortable, stinking and near unbearably loud machine, pinned back by G-force for nearly two hours and then after travelling at dangerous speeds for that time, you do not end up more than ten metres from where you started... Maybe women have just got more sense!

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:44 AM

MtheGM - I do hope you were being as flippant as I was.

alanabit - for the second time on this thread I point out that was exactly what I said. Does anyone actualy read these posts? :-P

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:07 AM

David eG - In what particular? I do genuinely like & admire the Yeomen's appearance; I do sympathise with Anne Boleyn; I do think Henry VIII was not - ah - altogether the most worthy individual in our history. Wherein is my 'flippancy' supposed to have manifested itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:12 AM

MtheGM. My post I said I hope you were being as flippant as I was - not that you were being flippant. You see my post was flippant and, oh, on second thoughts, never mind...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:37 AM

Yes, OK Dave - I do see where you are coming from. Just that the Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm thread, re the terrible taste of a music-hall song about Anne Boleyn's execution, which nobody else but the OP & I seemed to recognise, is still a bit fresh in mind. One thing that has always exercised me is, how long after something terrible in its time is it OK to poke fun at it — I have always hated comic films about eg The Reign Of Terror {"Don't Lose Your Head" by the CarryOn people}, Christians To Lions, &c. When will the Auschwitz hahaha come along then? {"Springtime for Hitler" is on the verge}. Maybe this might form the topic of a separate thread... In fact I am about to start it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:49 AM

Strange I am just writing a song about someone visiting a country that was once their enemy and overcoming old hatred.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 10:16 AM

Apparently the anti-G suits were not made in women's sizes - or maybe that was a euphemism for shape. The same is said about astronauts suits and women's sizes.

Say what you want about opportunity there is plenty of research that supports some gender differences that are poo-pooed by the PC brigade. Aggresion is less common in the female demographic, IMHO and I suspect it is a generally percieved wisdom. Preferrence for pink is said to be allied to the fruit gatherers, near ripe fruits are good, unripe and rotten are not. We have been hunter gatherers longer than farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:01 AM

"Say what you want about opportunity there is plenty of research that supports some gender differences that are poo-pooed by the PC brigade. Aggresion is less common in the female demographic, IMHO and I suspect it is a generally percieved wisdom."

Well, in the case of Moira Cameron, before she was eligible for her job as a Beefeater she "must have been a warrant officer or senior noncommissioned officer, have served at least 22 years in the army, Royal Air Force or Royal Marines, and hold the medal for long service and good conduct."

Now I wouldn't like to characterise Moira as "aggressive" si mply because she served out a distingushed career in the army, but as an officer who spent her entire career in a man's world, she was more than qualifierd to fulfill her role - it's a pity a couple of her male colleagues decided that her gender made her unfit for the job, and tried to bully her out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM

The only thing that worries me about the girl flying in the Red Arrows and what Lizzie mentioned about asking for directions,(which as a salesman I used to do regularly), few women seem to know their left from their right, but some do. So when you reach a T junction it makes you wonder "Did she really mean Right or did she actually mean LEFT or was she right and it is Right"?
LEFT LEFT LEFT no sorry I meant RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:28 PM

Ruth---it was her SEX,dear, not her gender (a term used mainly in the field of English grammar,I believe).Anyway, well done to the lady who has now joined the Red Arrows,and I am sure that she will make a great success of her appointment.She is certainly dedicated to flying,having already served one if not two tours as a fast-jet,frontline (Tornados, I believe) pilot,and is married to a Royal Navy aviator currently serving at RAF Valley in Anglesey.
             Despite what the press said to the contrary,there were,in fact,many,many female pilots employed ,during WW2----admittedly not in combat situations,but certainly flying every type of fighter and bomber then used,but in the ferry / delivery role. I have always had the greatest of admiration for them.
    A recent Board of Enquiry has recently ascertained that a Royal Air Force "Puma" helicopter that crashed,causing multiple fatalities,was the direct result of the childishly stupid actions of the pilot and his accompanying Flight Sergeant,who were "buzzing" a cab-driver at low altitude,whilst playing loud music a la "Apocalypse Now" and yelling " YEEEEEHaaa" . I really can't imagine a female pilot doing THAT !

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:32 PM

"Say what you want about opportunity there is plenty of research that supports some gender differences that are poo-pooed by the PC brigade. Aggresion is less common in the female demographic, IMHO and I suspect it is a generally percieved wisdom."

.... putting us back into air superiority

But there are some situations where pure aggression leads to risk-taking behaviours too, 'red mist syndrome', etc. I am not saying that women cannot be aggressive, or get the 'red mist', but sometimes being less prone to adrenaline rushes and aggression can lead to much clearer and simple solutions, that appear aggressive. Aggression alone seldom solves anything and a great deal of training to men in aerial combat is about tempering their aggression and seeking 'calmer' solutions clearly and more quickly. I am not suggesting you are saying that aggression is a male only trait, but I would consider that lack of aggression can be very positive even on a battlefield if clearer thinking leads to quicker wins. An apparent aggressive result/outcome could come from a clear thinking mind not clouded by aggressive impulse.

Some Chess moves can be very aggressive but they are often more the result of clear, thinking ahead, strategies than knee jerk aggression. When a combat pilot can be ahead of the game and react in an almost intuitive/second nature/instinctive way, is when they are at their deadliest but maybe not their most aggressive.

Red Arrow pilots do all that and more, with no display ever the same, having honed their skills as front line fast jet pilots mostly. An aggressive, too competative, pilot would not get there.

Not sure if I have said that clear enough but I know what I mean ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Woman joins The Red Arrows
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

bubblyrat, "dear", gender politics and gender studies are well established and have been for decades. It is perfectly acceptable to refer to a woman's gender as opposed to her sex.