BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:57 PM

He's got nothing to do perhaps!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:20 AM

Does anyone else find it hilariously ironic that, nearly half a year after the last post, someone would write if you stop throwing stones based on old grudges others will stop responding

Probably just me!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 10 - 12:45 PM

That was last year, ollaimh.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:22 AM

the conviction of the british government for torture was published in the economist and many other mainstream journals. the thing that bothers me is the inherent ignorant racism spouted by so many english people on mud cat. we were talking about boy scouts then keith from hertforshire said basically that nay critic must be ira. what nonsense.

the boy scouts are a partially publica;;y created and fundied organization. the ira are underground and i doubt any member are on muscat. people whop vote for governments that support imperialist ventures do take personal responsibility for those ventures and the deaths and suffering caused. people who are gaels are not all responsible for the actions of an underground group. on that stamdard all englishpeople are responsible for the atrocities of the ulster paramilitary organizations.

if you stop throwing stones based on old grudges others will stop responding

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM

ollaimh any chance of putting that crap to music?

Then the world could have yet another Whinging Irish Ballad based on fairy tales.

Although quite frankly it needs another one of those like somebody needs another hole in the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

Have you ever visited part of the ex-empire/commonwealth/whatever, ollaimh. I found not a single person of middle-age or over in Sierra Leone where I spent some time 20 years ago who didn't long for the pre-"independence" days back. & that was just before the gr8 hands·cut·off civil-war which turned the country into the hell-on-earth of sub-Saharan Africa for all those years - probably to this day...

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:02 PM

baden powel started the scouts because they found that the young military recruits were not phuscially up to the traditional standards of fitness and health that had existed before the peak of the industrial revolution. powell wrote about this hinself as his reason.

it was a paramilitary organization to equip young men to participate in the empire. no one then much thought there w anything wrong about the empire except the oppressed people of the empire ad no one listened to them, and few do now . the old empire didn't keep records of the dead among the nations they were invading and the americans don't count iraqi dead, as they stopped counting vietnemese dead. the empie lives on.

the boyscouts ar an inherently far right organization. many have fun and learn skills as many did in the hitler youth and the red guards. they were to serve the objctives of empire when there was almost no effictive rsistance.

the accuse the pira of turture is the racism i have come to expect from scout defenders. there are no insicentd of the pira taking british soldiers prisoners and none of them torturing them. what he meant was the pira are meanies. well all armed men are meanies to someone.

whilest the uk government stands cobvicted of torture in the european human rights commission and the european high court of justice. and all the while the apologists for empire--and they are still many as the uk continues to try to piggy back on the american empire--continue to posture as self righteous because those pesky irish(and i'm notirish by the way) are so much worse.

the irish holocoust was a manufactured famines and mass deportation. all the time of the famine there was about three times the food needed to feed the people of ireland being exported to the continent by farm owner by the newcomer british. those farms were acquired by military force. the government refused to feed the people because of capitalist beliefs. so millons starved or were displaced.

no englishman should be posturing as morally superios over ireland. their army tortured and continues to torture there. the pira fight them00and i wouldn;t --but they are like any resistance movement and there is no proof of them torturing their enemies. they don't even take prisoners. they do kill their own traitors within. every army does. they may do it in an evil way but they are not an elected government doing it. the elected government of the uk participated in the holocoust and the continuous torture. i didn;t get off topic but the selfrighteus git who decide the pira is bad so all he says must be morally superior.

really grow up. the british empre was an evil force for most of those occupied by it and the clinging to the ideology that it was good and moral is the root of most english excusses for abuse now.the scouts werepart and parcel of the british imperial sustem

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:17 AM

And again, Baden Powell's own views changed over the years:

'A Scout/Guide should save animals as far as possible from pain, and should not kill any animal unnecessarily, not even the smallest of God's creatures.'

'By continually watching animals in their natural state one gets to like them too well to shoot them. The whole sport of hunting animals lies in the woodcraft of stalking them, not in the killing.'

'An animal has been made by God just as you have been. He is therefore a fellowcreature. He has not the power of speaking our language, but can feel pleasure or pain just as we can, and he can feel grateful to anyone who is kind to him. A Scout is always helpful to people who are crippled or blind or deaf and dumb; so he is good also to these dumb fellow-creatures of ours.'

Quoted here:
Baden Powell Quotes

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:14 AM

I love the objectivity and impartiality that you get from the usual suspects here on Mudcat.

Ard provided us with a link the contents of which stated that papers were auctioned recently "that suggest that BP may have done something".

Ard immediately translates that to papers were auctioned recently that state BP definitely did murder a POW.

Now read one and then read the other if you come to the same conclusion as Ard without knowing the full facts of the case then you are obviously as bigotted as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

Not so, Keith!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM

Says it all?
Says what?
There were few (any?) oponents of hunting in those times.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM

This is the Baden Powell book
Pig-Sticking or Hog hunting

KP

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Yes, Willie Rushton did call his book "Pig Sticking - A Joy for Life."

Try reading it...

He stated in the introduction that he called the book by that name because Baden Powell called a book by similar...

Where the hell do you think I got that snippet in the first place???

(By studing the Baden Powell book?)

Rushton was a bit of a hero of mine. Even got pissed with him once, by way of name dropping

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM

William Rushton, Baden-Powell - these pedantic distinctions some people feel called on to make...

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:59 AM

Baden Powell wrote a book called "Pig sticking - A joy for life." Says it all really.....

"Pigsticking: A Joy for Life" was by William Rushton, and isn't the sort of book you think it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM

It would be great to have another chat about Irish history, but not in a thread about scouts!
Ard criticised an alleged action of BP, and I contrasted it with the actions of a group he has previously expressed sympathy with.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:55 AM

Poor Keith always gets it wrong, if the Irish were seeking revenge for past wrongs this would prove to be an impossible task. Even an inkling of Englands role in Ireland would convince the most pig-headed British Empire lover of the countless thousands that were murdered here over the centuries, making the task never-ending.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:51 PM

how many millions of irish died because of the british empire? get real

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

The history and heritage of scouting is not an issue here. My lads were both scouts and I used to help out. Not as a scout leader but helped out with camps, fund raising etc.

If I were to think this particular group had any religious connection, I would have dissuaded my boys from being members, but to my knowledge, none of the leaders had any religious motives and no prayers were said. In fact, the only link with the church was the remembrance Sunday parade.

This story is about a child who wanted to upset people. It is something kids do at a certain age. Some more than others... Error of ways dealt with and now sorted.

Regarding Baden Powell;

I was about to mention the story about executing a prisoner of war and it all being hushed up, but I have been beaten to it. Read the link if you haven't done so yet, it is rather disturbing but also normal for the time and age in question.

Baden Powell wrote a book called "Pig sticking - A joy for life." Says it all really.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM

Ard,
Baden-Powell's views and writings did, though, seem to change over the years:

These quotes are from 'Imperialism and Popular Culture' by John M MacKenzie which you can find on Google books

'Baden-Powell consistently preached in favour of social and racial harmony and inveighed against class and colour prejudice....As the Scout movement extended throughout the empire he found no difficulty in enlarging his fourth law for Scouts to: A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what country class or creed the other may belong'

'In the middle of the Great War Baden Powell declined to be associated with a pressure group led by the Dean of Lincoln and Lord Sydenham (the latter a keen supporter of military training for the young) in their attempts to encourage the teaching of patriotic values'

'By the time of Baden Powell's death in 1941 the imperial element within Scouting and Guiding had been totally transformed...the two movements saw themselves as helping the individual nations of the Commonwealth to achieve a domestic multi-racial coherence..'

This article is also interesting in that it dispels somewhat the image of Baden Powell as a Victorian reactionary. It has him quoting Montessori for example.

Baden Powell as an Educational Innovator
cheers
KP

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:41 AM

It does seem likely that the boy was just repeating Ahmed's catch phrase.
The answer to how many POWs PIRA murdered is, I think, all of them, usually after the most horrific, medieval torture.
That did not stop PIRA starting Republican youth movements, or a senior officer becoming Minister of Education.
No posts from Ard Mhacha about any of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Further to Hugh Muir's suggested explanation, as pointed to by Paul Burke: "Achmed The Dead terrorist"

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

How many POWs did PIRA illegally execute Ard?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

As Corporal Jones in DaDs Army would have said," Lord Kitchener gave the fuzzy wuzzys a fair trail and then he executed them", looks like old Baden had the same idea.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8403956.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM

Perehaps an explanation, almost innocent? The perpetrator may have been innocent if stupid:

The excellent Hugh Muir in the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:29 AM

"This is worse than normal teenage stupidity, because the boys will have been taught about what Hitler's Germany did in school. It was not done in ignorance."

Precisely the point Penny, knowledge that it's wrong is what makes the act of stupidity so attractive to those who behave that way. I remember very clearly how, in my very early teens in the early '60s, and as one of a gang of school-mates, I used to shout about how wonderful the Gestapo were, and what a fine chap Adolf Hitler had been. All this whilst surrounded by people who had only a few years earlier gone through the six horrendous years of WW2. I knew it was bollocks and I knew I was behaving like an arsehole, but it felt so.....clever.......edgy.....dangerous.

Thankfully, I grew up.

I'm sure those scouts have realised it was an arsehole thing to do and, like I did, they probably feel pretty crappy about it now. I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM

Action has been taken by the local Scout hierarchy.
It was one scout who caused the incident and he will be apologizing to the Rabbi in question.

See discussion (and the action taken) on this thread:

Escouts forum

KP
(Folkie and UK Cub Leader)

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:24 AM

This is worse than normal teenage stupidity, because the boys will have been taught about what Hitler's Germany did in school. It was not done in ignorance.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:43 AM

Hands up those who never did anything stupid when they were teenagers.......................

Mmmmm, thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:04 AM

I was registered with the Boy Scouts USA for about thirty years, including ten years as a Cubmster, leader of a Cub Scout pack. I dropped my membership in about 1992, partly because the US Scouts seemed too closely allied with conservative issues - chiefly their opposition to homosexuality and atheism, but also the general atmosphere seemed to favor the military and guns and such. I also thought they were influenced too strongly by the Mormons, at least in the Western US. I think the Girl Scouts in the US have done a far better job of keeping out of political alliances.

On the other hand, I had lots of good experiences with the Scouts, and found it to be one of the few places where American boys can sing without embarrassment. And I was pleased to find out that the Chief Executive of the Boy Scouts in the US is a man I once knew quite well.

But no, I can't believe the Boy Scout organization in the US or the UK, would have anything to do with supporting antisemitism. The incident reported is clearly an aberration, and the organization should not be condemned for the actions of a few of its teenage members.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:18 AM

No 'game' — you miss my point; but let it pass, it's honestly not worth getting agitated about.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM

I don't know what your game is, but I'm not interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

"there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!"

And this is something I have done? -- [Meself]·····
·····
.....
You know best, Meself — but you must admit your last self-exculpatory 'only-kidding' tailpiece to your last post suggested you to be aware of something of the sort, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

A photo of Polish boy scouts fighting in the Warsaw Uprising

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

"there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!"

And this is something I have done?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

With regard to the Scouts who were shouting at Jews, I note that the one thing nobody does is ask them 'What was that all about?'

Maybe they thought they were being funny. Maybe somebody has been feeding them lies. Maybe something else.

I'll tell you one thing - if it were my son, I'd be checking his room, etc, for drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Well OK, Meself - but ya-no there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:23 PM

I always knew Hitler wasn't all bad.




(Just kidding, folks, just kidding - lighten up, wouldja!)

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Hitler didn't like the Scouts. In fact he outlawed the German Scouting Movement, and set up the Hitler Youth along rather different lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

Another story here http://www.allvoices.com/news/4583628-nazi-symbols-probe-wearing



of inappropriate symbolism

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:59 PM

IMO, very well said, Royston.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

""Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.""

While I agreee that an isolated incident is NOT indicative of the quality and morality of the Scout movement, I find myself wondering....

Wondering why you have such a poor opinion of the Mudcat community, and given that opinion, WHY are you here?

Mind you, that is a question that has been puzzling me for some time, considering your totally negative attitude to your fellow members.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Old Vermin
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM

Scouts are drawn from and mostly reflect the local community. We were lucky. Our boys joined what was probably the best local troop in our bit of Surrey and then Venture unit. Run by people who were thoughtful and kind - mostly - and with a fairly strong sense of humour. The boys and girls were mostly of the same type. Meeting some of the other local troops, it was evident that they were not all that nice or that bright.

Such is life. And I shudder to think of the consternation at Baden-Powell House. The Romford behaviour showed an attitude well outside the Scout's ethos, never mind the behaviour.

"A Scout is kind to all in thought, word and deed" If I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Royston
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

This incident tells us nothing about the Scouting Movement; an institution that formed my socialist outlook on life.

It tells us a lot about the consequences - expected or unexpected - about giving publicity to Nick Griffin and the BNP, about normalising fascism, about hyping immigration and the dangers of immigration.

It shows us how giving an inch of ground to these evil and poisonous people and their vicious and poisonous views, perpetuates a cycle of evil and prejudice that starts with abusive boy scouts and ends in gas chambers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

It wasn't an implication I intended, McGrath; it's my understanding of how the Hitler Youth were regarded, in their early days, by society at large. The various cross-cultural understandings of single and double quotation marks led me astray; I should have used singles for both.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM

"more or less acceptable" The implication of that quote is that it was Baden-Powell saying that. Is that correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!

I'm sure you're aware, Keith, that one of the consequences of a movement as successful as Scouts (under their various nomenclatures) is that the movement affects and is affected by the whole gamut of what goes on in the world.

His southern African experiences formed his view that Britain's youth was not up to maintaining the expectations that came with British notions that their people (and, specifically, the English) were the pinnacle of human development and abilities. So he started the Scouts along paramilitary lines for essentially paramilitary purposes. At the time (and for the next 30 years or so) this was par for the course; because it was (initially) English this was seen as "good" and even when Hitler used the same ideas and practices for the same purposes it was seen as "more or less acceptable".

Baden-Powell was an exceptional product of his time as was the Scouting movement; times have changed, we've changed and Scouting has changed. We hope that all three have changed for the better, because we can all identify faults in all three as we go back into history. The behaviour of the scouts described in the OP is appalling and unacceptable, even though it might have been the consequence of something as minor as a misconstrued sense of humour. The fact that it is unusual should be a comfort to you (and us as well?) and is almost certainly the reason it got onto Mudcat.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM

Many say that schools have been infiltrated by paedophiles.
Nearly every week I read about a teacher who has been sacked for inappropriate sexual behaviour.
So schools are a bad thing.

There is no evidence at all that BP was a paedophle, but who knows what he got up to in his concentration camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM

This isn't the only bad news story about the Scouts, unfortunately. Sentencing for scout master paedophiles . If you check Baden-Powell in google, there are a number of articles alleging that he was a paedophile, and many say the Scouts have been infiltrated by paedopphiles over the years.

Today, an Australian politician, Family First senator Steve Fielding told how he was sexually abused as a child, for some years by a scoutmaster. He said his heart went out to anyone with a similar experience. I have a friend (also working in politics, different party) who was also sexually abused by a scoutmaster.

I know the scouts have done many good things, and those who didn't experience abuse are lucky. But not all scouts were lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM

There are 30 million scouts, mainly teenagers, and yet how often do you hear of any problems?
This is the only bad news story about scouts I have EVER come across.
Scouting has been only a force for good in the world.
This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!
Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.