BS: Film : Avatar

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

My favorite movie of all time. And that's really saying something.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 08:03 AM

The weird effect that I noticed with the 'glasses' was that I was reminded of those little screens in the 50/60s that had grooves in the plastic and a few pictures that appeared to move when you moved your head... the '3D' effect reminded me of old style manual multi layer cell animation - several different layers of in focus images at different distances away.

Never DID adjust to that completely, but I kept the headaches at bay, once I realised that effect....

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:07 AM

Loved it...one of the best films I've seen...

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:34 PM

For Ellison fans, this is on Netflix.


Harlan Ellison: Dreams with Sharp Teeth(2008) NR

Directed by Erik Nelson, this absorbing documentary delves into the life of sci-fi scribe Harlan Ellison, known as much for his contentious demeanor and abrasive personality as he is for his award-winning literature. The venerated writer -- one of the genre's most prolific and influential storytellers -- is profiled through accounts of critics, friends and associates, candid interviews with the outspoken author and readings from his works.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

It is now number one all time worldwide!

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/camerons-avatar-becomes-top-movie-attraction-all-time-117534

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

The body she was seeing for the first time--Sully's Terran body--she somehow knew was the one. She revived it. She did so to save the one she had known through his Avatar, but the remarkable dual-identity issue was a really dramatic factor at that crucial moment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 02:52 PM

a crucial moment, for example, in which the heroine confronts saving the life of her lover and bringing him back to life, excerpt in a different body than she has known him in.

I didn't read it that way. Keeping him alive as a human being wasn't really an option (wrong atmosphere, aside from other incompatibilities), and surely the blue body involved was the same one she'd always known him wearing?

The narrative cliches didn't really matter too much. All westerns are full of cliches, even the off-beat ones like this), it's part of their appeal.

Pity about the boring battles, but presumably they've decided that that appeals to more people than it puts off. I'd like to think they are wrong, or at least that that stuff is a temporary phase that will pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

and it's about set to sink 'Titanic ' as the top money maker...

Those Ontario lads know how to do it !

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:50 AM

I just saw the IMAX 3d version here in San Diego. I am blown away by the artistry of this film. I wouldn't bother submitting it to the toxic scrutiny of those who have to reduce everything to Comp Lit. Cameron has accomplished a pinnacle in the art.

The plot is a lot less cheesy than some of its stereotypical elements. There is a crucial moment, for example, in which the heroine confronts saving the life of her lover and bringing him back to life, excerpt in a different body than she has known him in. Now that's a crux worth pausing on; it is about as far from a cliche as you can get.

I found it excellently paced and timed, intellectually and emotionally touching, and absolutely worth the time and treasure to go see it. The 3D technology alone, perfected as I have never seen it before, is worth it. I feel like a farmer who just saw a Tin Lizzie go by for the first time.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

Jack-

I don't think I suggested "stealing" but why not suggest better literary sources? It's also true that good stories that have been transformed into film seldom survive the process. Even with MASTER AND COMMANDER, one of the best nautical films of the Napoleonic Period, the director hardly deserved more than a B- but some of it he got right.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:38 PM

Harlin Ellison sued Cameron for Terminator. You think he should steal from better authors?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:20 PM

McGrath-

I basically agree with you. It's a lovely picture to look at until it reeves up to the battle scenes. And things didn't look good for the planet's residents until the Planet decided enough was enough.

But at the Golden Globe awards the other night:

"It's déjà vu for director James Cameron, who bagged the trophy for Best Director at the 67th Golden Globes for his sci-fi comeback film, "Avatar," which also won for "Best Motion Picture – Drama."

Cameron took home the same honors 12 years ago for the highest-grossing movie of all time, "Titanic." "Avatar" now trails behind the ship-set romance film, and is only $287 million short to beat "Titanic"'s $1.8 billion world record."

Now if he would use a script based on the writing of Ursula LeGuin, Cameron might come up with a more intriguing story and characters.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

Here is what I mean - especially the last two minutes or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:00 PM

Just seen it. Beautiful to look at during the travelogue bits. The plot and all the knockabout fighting got in the way - not just because of it being violent as because it messed up the illusion.

The point of special effects or whatever you call it when it gets to this level, is that you forget them and experience them as real. When it comes to nine-foot high blue people and weird and wonderful creatures and even flying mountains, no problem - they look real, I can believe in them at the time. But computer game style battles, and contrived and unbelievable victories for the goodies - even though I do like that to happen - just serves to shatter the illusion.

Still it was amazing to watch.

Downpoint was when it came to the end credits, and there was that absolutely terrible song by an appalling screechy singer. No doubt intended to drive us from the theatre...

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 09:07 AM

The visual experience, up in the trees and in the sky, reminded me of my first experience snorkeling on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. There was this window opening up onto an entirely alien world.

It won't be long before someone pulls together an Avatar theme park, I suppose, but I'm a little too old to go scrambling through the tree tops, unless they can transport my mind to a younger and limber blue bode. Hmmmm?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:20 AM

I had a lot of trouble with the glasses. I had to hold them on over my prescription glasses for most of the movie. They kept wanting to slide off my nose. Maybe I had more trouble than JtS did because he has more room for two pairs of glasses on his nose than I do.

However, even with the glasses trouble, it was still definitely worth seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:42 PM

where I was mac, it was a pair of horn rimmed style glasses about an inch wider than mine. They worked and fit fine over my specs.

I guess if the technology becomes popular a range of different lenses will be offered.


Do you think that Cameron has polarized contacts?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: reggie miles
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:02 PM

I spent a couple of extra dollars to see this at our largest IMAX theater. The Boeing IMAX, at the Seattle Center grounds, has a six story tall screen. It really helped to immerse me in the plot.

I'm far less critical of any similarities to the plots of other movies or stories. I'm almost always willing to give any show a fair viewing. Everyone has their own way of expressing a tale and making a tale interesting. I'm always interested in how a particular production handles the details.

As far as I'm concerned, they did a most admirable job with this telling. I loved the 3D effects, the intensity of the color, the sweeping aerial action scenes. It was very innovative. I enjoyed the mixture of outer space and the fantasy elements of the inhabitants of Pandora.

I could have easily watched another couple of hours worth or more. I'm glad to know that they're considering more of this kind of movie making. I'm also glad that it has sold so well. That success will certainly fund more of the same. I think that the ideas represented in it have the potential to further entertain and this kind of entertainment is right up my alley.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM

Either you wear very different glasse from me, or your cinema supplies very different goggles.   I can just about balance them on, and if I hold my head steady, they don't fall off, but it's never comfortable. Something like this would be simple enough, work a lot better, and shouldn't be any more expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Same here.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:02 AM

I wear glasses. I had no trouble putting their glasses over my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

I wish these 3D movie moguls would come to terms with the fact that lots of us wear glasses, and started to provide goggles that clip on, rather than expecting people to wear two pairs of conventional frames at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

A sequel or two is in the works.

http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/movie-talk-avatar-trilogy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:01 PM

I'm definitely only critical in retrospect; came out saying "Wow!"

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:07 PM

I just came back from the film and I'm glad I went. The production is quite spectacular, and the alien world quite attractive and interesting. The evil military and aggressive entrepreneurial types do dominate the story line, but they get what they deserve.

I suppose that the fact that millions of young people will actually view this moral drama may have some pay-off. It's doubtful if there are many other opportunities in our culture where such lessons might be learned.

I would have preferred a stronger script, maybe something based on Ursula Leguin's work but I'll settle for this.

I'm glad I wasn't totally discouraged by the initial reviews and comments.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: fretless
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:02 PM

Oh good grief! I'd stayed off this thread until I got around to seeing the movie, which I finally did last night. Of course the plot was White messiah nonsense. The point of this cartoon of a movie was the special effects, which were superb (and yes, worth the extra bucks to see it in 3D). As soon as the sexy alien chick leads our crippled-in-real-life but agile-in-alien-avatar-form hero into the native conclave and introduces him to the clan leader, announcing that the leader is also her father, I turned to my companion and said: "Oh, now I get it -- it's Disney's Pocahontas." Every plot turn from then on was entirely predictable: the bad and greedy indusrialists, getting to fly the big bird, the two-dimensional psycho military leader, the final transformation via the tree of life.

But who cares. The visuals were great. Doesn't make it less entertaining as a movie, unless you thought you were paying for an intellectual plot instead of a visual experience.

Same thing when Star Wars came out in the 1970s -- insultingly stupid dialogue ("After you, flyboy," or something like that, as they dive into the garbage disposal) with, for its time, awesome special effects.

As for the 3D technology, my eyes are not compatible with the old red-green versions of 3D. This new format, polarized or whatever, works fine. Worth a try even if you have had difficulty with the older formats.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:12 PM

The rationality of what I have said speaks for its self.

If you don't want your BullShip pointed out why do you continue to dispense it?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

I'll just skip down here and say that I'm not going to discuss this any more with you Jack, because you've now reached the point where you will say "No" any time I say "yes," just for the sake of arguing. And I don't find that kind of irrational argument a productive form of discourse.

Like I said, it was a nice thread while it lasted.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Mais oui!

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

Weren't the Anglo-Saxons whiter than the Normans? Wouldn't that be the French messiah complex?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

In all seriousness, while I think there is relevancy to the 'white messiah complex' as a major and repeated thematic element, it also occurs in other contexts, such as the Normans/ over Anglo-Saxon theme in the play/ movie Becket and other such contexts. I think we could go post-post-modern and extrapolate it out to a left brain/ right brain context, and the super organizing theme is not so much racial or tribal or cultural as a logical/ existential kind of mutual need.

It all comes down to Ying and Yang, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:37 AM

More "Post Modernism?" It is wrong to compare movies to movies, but relevant to bring other, unrelated fields into play? You certainly seem to have an amusing and creative way of looking at things.

I'm pretty sure that Cameron's research was to find a plausible and amusing story in which he could show off this world he created. Characters were chosen to be as accessible and familiar as possible to a broad audience. As someone else on this thread has pointed out, it probably owes more to the writers of "Dances with Wolves" or Disney's "Pocahontas" than to any of the anthropologists you have mentioned.

I haven't seen any hint of racism in any of Cameron's films before this. I have no doubt that none was intended in Avatar. Why isn't this film instead being praised for featuring a disabled character?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:18 AM

Of course it is relevant! It's allowing the viewer to articulate what it is they bring (in their experience and understanding and belief system and whatever else) to the film. It's why the movie isn't quite the same for any two people who see it. The film maker releases his creation into the world and then the world responds to it, one viewer at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:58 PM

Ezili Danto does make some interesting points. But it is probably prudent to keep in mind that it IS just a movie and that Cameron is making no attempt at historical scholarship. On the other hand One of his characters mentioning "vudon" in this movie will probably do more for the Haitian cause than any number of Op-eds or protests.

Keeping in mind that Cameron is free to do what he wants in a made up world and to base it on any number of sources. The cavalry charge near the end of the movie reminded me of the Poles on horseback fighting the NAZIs at the start of WWII. Unless Cameron says he used it, I don't think any outside scholarship is relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:55 PM

I suspect there is another group that will need to weigh in for an interesting answer regarding race in this film: mixedblood members of any culture have a foot in at least two camps, though complete exposure to both doesn't always happen. Since the comparison has been made so often to American Indian culture, looking at the scholarship of such individuals as Gerald Vizenor, Louise Erdrich, Michael Dorris, Louis Owens, Linda Hogan, Leslie Marmon Silko, Wendy Rose and the scholars who know them so well might shed some light. I expect those responses either aren't out there yet, or haven't been repeated (or retweeted) as widely.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:44 PM

An alternative take on the White messiah thing... in the case of Avatar, and I imagine some of the other films with this theme, the White person is saving the "natives" from other White people, which isn't really the same as rescuing them because of their own lack of ability. In this kind of situation, the indigenous people are unfamiliar with the methods used by the aggressors, and having someone from aggressor culture, who knows and understands their ways, to help them defend themselves makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:29 PM

Jack - In the case of the glorified native paradigm, illiteracy is a good thing -- the mind is pure of western thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:04 AM

Here it is...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Avatar-Movie-from-a-Bl-by-Ezili-Danto-100104-843.html

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:59 PM

I read an article about the White messiah complex aspect of the movie from the perspective of people who are not White. They said the movie is definitely worth watching for a number of reasons, but they did criticize that aspect of it. I'll see if I can find the article and post it.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:56 PM

>>It rests on the assumption that illiteracy is the path to grace.

There seems to be a typo here.

surely "literacy" is what is meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:55 PM

I think that young, disabled marine in charge of the crusade so that his audience would identify with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:05 PM

"There was a movie I seen one time, I think I sat through it twice.
I don't remember who I was or where I was bound.
All I remember about it was it starred Gregory Peck, he wore a gun and he was shot in the back.
Seems like a long time ago, long before the stars were torn down."

... excerpt from Brownsville Girl, lyrics by B. Dylan and S. Shepard

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:30 PM

David Brooks in the NY Times has a pretty good column about what he calls the "White Messiah Complex" in Avatar, as well as "A Man Called Horse," "At Play in the Fields of the Lord," "Dances With Wolves" or "The Last Samurai." He says, 'kids have been given their own pure versions of the fable, like "Pocahontas" and "FernGully."'

He says:

Still, would it be totally annoying to point out that the whole White Messiah fable, especially as Cameron applies it, is kind of offensive?

It rests on the stereotype that white people are rationalist and technocratic while colonial victims are spiritual and athletic. It rests on the assumption that nonwhites need the White Messiah to lead their crusades. It rests on the assumption that illiteracy is the path to grace. It also creates a sort of two-edged cultural imperialism. Natives can either have their history shaped by cruel imperialists or benevolent ones, but either way, they are going to be supporting actors in our journey to self-admiration.

It's just escapism, obviously, but benevolent romanticism can be just as condescending as the malevolent kind — even when you surround it with pop-up ferns and floating mountains.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:39 PM

I read in a screenwriting book that there are only 27 different plots in movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:40 PM

Here is a sample of the original screenplay

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: GUEST,banclari
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:16 AM

I got my money's worth... Pandora's box is wide open,
"I See You', ICU or,Icy Ewe....

but what are those white dots,,, Na-vi acne ?

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:40 AM

According to the likes of Derrida and Foucault, bus tickets have as much cultural relevance and say as much about the world - given the context - as Shakespeare. However, if you don't believe in postmodern theory - and I never have - then comparisons in terms of art, technique, expression, philosophy, etc., still do mean something.

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:53 AM

I didn't call anybody irrational, I wasn't speaking to you, and I won't again, because I know where this is going. Goodbye, it was a good thread while it lasted.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:50 AM

I don't need to make it personal????

I was one of the people "comparing them or ranking them, film to film" You called me irrational and say don't make it personal. LOL!!!
________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Film : Avatar
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:42 PM

I articulated a postmodern response. You don't need to make it personal.