BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz

Subject: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

I'm glad to hear the news that they've found the iron sign that was ripped off the other night. They have five young men in custody.

It will be interesting to see what develops. In the USA quite possibly it would turn out to have been a college prank-

Subject: RE: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 07:53 PM

But it's not the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: pdq
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 08:00 PM

Hard to get a 16 foot sign through the basement window of the fraternity house.

Subject: RE: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

True, on both counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 08:23 PM

I'm glad they found it and have gotten it back in one piece. My first reaction still stands:

"How DARE they??"

Subject: RE: BS: Arbeit Machts Frei
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM

The story is from http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5glrbC5NfuZseKLKokuu6uECSaTOg

Police recover stolen Auschwitz "Arbeit macht frei" sign
(AFP) – 1 hour ago
WARSAW — Polish police said early Monday they have recovered the Nazi German "Arbeit macht frei" sign stolen Friday from the site of the Auschwitz death camp in southern Poland.
"We have arrested five men aged from 20 to 39 in the north of Poland. The recovered sign has been cut up," Dariusz Nowak, spokesman for the police in southern Krakow, told AFP.
Polish police had earlier stepped up border checks as they intensified the hunt for thieves who stole the infamous sign from the Auschwitz death camp, now a museum.
Road blocks were in place across the southern Polish region, while around 40 officers and forensic experts were mobilised to gather evidence at the camp itself, said Nowak.
Poland had sought the help of the international policing bodies Interpol and Europol to try to track down the criminals, he said.
The sign, which means "Work Will Set You Free", came to symbolise the horror of the camp where 1.1 million mainly Jewish prisoners died during World War II, from overwork and starvation but mostly in the gas chambers.
Its theft Friday at dawn from the camp entrance sparked a chorus of outrage from world leaders, Jewish groups and Holocaust survivors.
Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:18 PM

Wow. I didn't see that the sign had been cut up. This is ugly.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:30 PM

Yes, I just found out as well. Apparently it was cut into three parts, one for each word.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:44 PM

Bastards

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM

There are theives for everything, from logs and other things of little financial value to cultural icons. While it should not be needed to lock everything up, there are people who would steal just for the sake of doing it.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:46 AM

Ditto what artbrooks said.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:10 AM

Some people steal. They steal things that have value. Habitually.

They steal lead from church roofs. They steal the electrical cables from railway signals and points (despite the obvious danger posed to life and limb of travellers). They steal from their work-colleagues. They steal from traders. They steal from peoples' houses and cars.

Why would this sign be any more sacred to that kind of person?

It has value. So they stole it.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:16 AM

They can't have stolen it for scrap - they took too much trouble to get round the security on the site. There are easier ways to steal scrap.

But why did they cut it up? that would vastly reduce its value, would've thought....

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM

The way the Polish police are loudly denying neo-Nazi connections is supicious- protesting too much. Poland is currently very sensitive about its image, and with good reason. It's highly ironic that the neo-Nazis in the UK tried to make Poles hate figures, since racism is rife there. If the thieves aren't neo-Nazi, they were stealing on behalf of someone who is. January 27th is the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the camp which some people still deny was built to kill men, women and children, mostly Jewish but many others besides.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:31 AM

At a guess they will have cut it up to be more easily transported. A skilled metal worker could reassemble it without it being apparent to most observers (though not entirely undetectable). I imagine it was originally assembled from pieces too.

I don't understand the desire to possess great cultural icons that cannot be shared with anyone else because they are stolen, but the market in such items is clear evidence that some folks have that desire.

The good thing here is that it has been recovered, and not disappeared into the shadowy world of stolen icons.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:07 AM

"If the thieves aren't neo-Nazi, they were stealing on behalf of someone who is."

Yes..

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:17 AM

There is a huge amount of anti-semitism in Poland - I have cousins there (by marriage) and have been there and seen and heard it for myself. Ironic that a country which suffered so much in general from the war should be so anti-semitic.

The Polish explanation, which I heard expressed when I was there, was that - in Poland - you're either 100% for the country and fellow Poles or you don't deserve to be there. The Jewish community was always treated with suspicion because they were seen as predominantly there for themselves, to the detriment of the community as a whole in a country which has always been intensely nationalistic.

I don't offer this as a true explanation, nor is it my personal view - it's what I heard expressed by Polish people in Poland. This was around 40 years ago, but I don't think there has been much change in attitude since then.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:24 AM

I was in Poland a few years ago, and a Pole started a conversation about how Poland needed to embrace mono-culturalism!

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:45 AM

I wonder what mono-culturalism in Poland would look like?

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 09:03 AM

My, wouldn't THAT be a bland society!

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Lox
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:10 AM

Are we to descend into pole bashing now or is this thread likely to remain on topic?

It would be sad if, in the name of outrage against hate ideology and scapegoating, we misdirected our anger towards citizens of Poland in general.

Polish culture is not bland - and besides, this assertion is not remotely useful in the context of the theft described.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:25 AM

The strangest thing is that we were watching a festival of traditional dancing in Krakow Cloth Hall Square at the time. A demonstration of the diversity of Polish culture, if there ever was.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: sapper82
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:25 PM

Being invloved in vintage machinery preservation, the scrap theory would not suprise me in the slightest!
I've seen many restoration projects having to be scrapped after the Metal Vultures have visited and stripped out the copper and other non-ferrous metals.
Tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage for a couple of hundred quids worht of scrap.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 03:30 PM

You don't travel 200 miles to pick up eighty pounds of mild steel protected by security cameras. It would make more sense to steal road signs locally.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 03:31 PM

Just a quick note to Lox:

No intention to indulge in Pole-bashing here. I'm married to one, know many Polish people well and have a huge respect for their culture and history.

Nevertheless, there is a large element in Polish society which is anti-semitic. My wife's father, a Pole who came here during the war, was horrified to hear some of his own relations express such sentiments. This not to damn a whole society and culture - just to acknowledge that the phenomenon exists.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 03:42 PM

Yes, to say there is much anti-semitism (historically too, as may be remembered from the 2ndWW) in Poland is simply to relate the fact of the matter.

Individuals however, Polish people are not identical to the prevailing politics of their nation - just as I am not a Neo-Nazi but recognise the Neo-Nazi's in Britain as a real presence.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 03:46 PM

Just like to add that I too, have close immigrant friends from various parts of Eastern Europe (not Poland however), where similar attitudes may be witnessed.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, the sign was found in Torun 500km away. That's 300 miles each way. In the UK scrap steel is about £75 a tonne, so 80kg is worth about £6. Even Polish Radio thinks it was stolen to order. And it's the 65th anniversary, not the 60th (of course).

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

While the place was in operation (I have read), there used to be a joke: It ought to say instead: "In the gate, out the chimney!"

One should also remember that many Jews were Communists (tho most Jews were not) & were made use of by the USSR while Poland was a satellite.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschw
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

I suppose that makes it OK then?

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:30 AM

"In the UK scrap steel is about £75 a tonne, so 80kg is worth about £6."

Paul, scrap metal that says 'Arbeit Machts Frei' and used to adorn the entrance to Auschwitz-Birkenau, isn't quite yer average bit o' scrap, and is probably worth a bit more than £75 a tonne to certain people, don'cha fink?

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM

Paul Burke: No, it doesn't make it O.K. It makes it complicated.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:58 PM

Joe F: I've run into many Poles (as in Poles from Poland) in the US and while I will not generalize, in a couple of cases what started as friendly informative conversations devolved into statements which were posed as explanatary but in my opinion verged on justification, and those comments were just like yours of 21 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM.

You might be stating a common perception, but I challenge it as justification.

Poland had the same proportion of Jews to population before the War as the United States has African Americans to population, about 10%. After the War, the percentage was about 0.1% and the persecutions went on.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 09:06 PM

Having said the above, I guess I should make it clear that I've met some wonderfully charismatic Poles, and experienced some terrific Polish American hospitality. The dichotomy between these experiences and my previous message means that talking history with intense Poles can really tweak my synapses.

Robo, who knows that singing Red Chorus songs won't necessarily help the issue.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 03:33 AM

Backwoodsman: yes, that's what I said.

Joe F: There were (and are) also Communist Poles, including very many active and passive supporters of the Soviet- dominated governments from 1945 to 1990. So logically polophobia should be as strong in Poland as antisemitism. Burritaint, somehow.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

I was not trying to justify anything, least of all antisemitism. But "common perception" is often important in politics.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:45 AM

Sorry Paul, my poor English-Comprehension skills! Upon re-reading, I see that we do, in fact, concur! Mea Culpa!

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:08 PM

A million people were murdered in that nazi death camp.... there are neo nazis here in Britain who want to play that down or even dismiss it as a 'Holohoax' as Nick Griffin the BNP leader tried to do some years ago.

ifor

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:19 AM

Where I live has always been a "home -from-home" to many Polish people ; an early girlfriend,whilst I was still at school,was Sue Burzinksi, my second,after school, was Carol Ziolkowski ! Later,having joined the Navy, I rather fancied a Glaswegian blonde called Bozena Radomski ! But I never detected any feelings of anti-semitism in any of them ; in fact,I had never even considered,even remotely,that ,given their shared sufferings under the Nazi occupation,there could possibly be any animosity between Poles and Jews. Still, one lives and learns, I suppose.Sad world,isn't it ??
          As for the people who stole the sign.....Lock 'em up in one of the surviving buildings at Auschwitz (preferably an oven) for 6 months,with no contact with the outside world-----that ought to do the trick. I guess that they might need some counselling afterwards !

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

An encouraging story: A few years ago, I received an email from someone in my father's parents' home town in Poland, asking, solely on the basis of my name, whether I was related to Irving Fineman, the novelist (who was indeed my father). Some people there had gotten hold of a novel he had published in 1933, a fictionalized account of his parents' lives up to their escape from the Russian empire in the early 1890s, shortly before he was born. They wanted to have the book translated into Polish as a contribution to Polish-Jewish relations. I was able to send the man some pictures & documents (and he sent me some), and I managed to find out that there would be no difficulty with the copyright, but the people there have had trouble finding a good translator. I hope it happens.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM

I hope it happens too Joe. Last year I could have offered you a translator, sadly too late now. Poles who move abroad (in my experience at least) seem to be the ones with broader horizons- the ones remaining often seem to use religion to foster a victim culture in which all outside Holy Church are the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:24 AM

We have had a lot of Polish people here in Lincolnshire, UK for many years - a lot of Polish aircrew flew from our airfields in WW2, and some married British girls, stayed and had their families here - so we're well used to them, and there's been a new influx in the past few years since they joined the EC.

They seem to be very well-mannered and extremely hard-working. Those who settled here after WW2 integrated very well indeed and worked predominantly in our engineering factories and on the land. I've never seen or heard any evidence of Polish anti-semitism, although, in fairness, I don't go looking for it (nor do I go looking for anti-anything-else, for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:49 PM

I did not mean to pick on the Poles in particular. There are antisemites everywhere, but I think it is fair to say that central & eastern Europe, historically, have been worse infected than western Europe & America. Few people, tho, were as obsessed with Jew-hating as Hitler was; it tended to simmer along, coming to a boil mainly when some wicked politician found it convenient as a distraction.

In that connection (obSongs) it is instructive to read F. J. Child's notes on the blood-libel song "Hugh of Lincoln", in which he does a thoro job of tracing that myth across Europe (while not concealing his disgust). Britain, it seems, had only the one song, and in America Child happened on a version (coming from Ireland) in which all mention of Jews is missing! There was an actual trial based on the blood libel in Russia so late as 1911 (the Beilis case). Somewhat earlier (1895) there was a notorious antisemitic frame-up in France (the Dreyfus case), but it was not nearly as blatant and nasty as that.

Subject: RE: BS:'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign stolen from Auschwitz
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:46 PM

I think Malamud's book "The Fixer" is a fictionalization of the Beilis case.

And while the pogroms and the accusations known as the Blood Libel were all too frequent in old Russia, things weren't always peaches and cream in the United States.