BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Mick, my friend, I am afraid that you are totally and completely mistaken when you say

"First, any soul, on any continent, that was alive and old enough to care about the news during the Vietnam/birth of the Hippies/Age of Aquarius, knows damn full well that the it became the universal "peace" sign. Any attempt, IMO, to act otherwise is disengenuous

I, personally, me, myself, was totally unaware that the CND logo had metamorphed into the universal Peace logo, and I do and did try to keep abreast of the news. It may seem incredible to you that there are people unaware of the more universal current symbolism, but that is in fact the case.

After this thread, however, that is probably no longer the case !

Thank you Ted, for acknowledging that the OP was an honest enquiry.

When I looked at the Google logo on Xmas Day, I thought "Whaaaat ?? Shit, that's a bit controversial", hence my starting this thread.

I now realise that, as I said on an earlier post, it was just a case of two nations separated by a common symbol, and that the matter has now been cleared up.

I did however and still do take grave exception to the thread being described as a "load of crap" and "this shit".

My opening post, from my perspective, and from the perspective of many UK members of a certain vintage , was a perfectly valid observation.

One wishes that clarification could have been achieved with less rancour, or indeed rancor, but there you go ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

Donuel, those last two posts by you are outstanding; some of your best ever.

Murray, the "fucking crap" was specifically about what MtheGM used to refer to Americans and I am sure you know that. No peace signs in Florida? That surprises me, really, not trying to take the piss outta ya, just surprised you never ran into it whilst living here. (Or, have I got my wires crossed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:05 PM

Kat, I swear I have no recollection of coming across any "peace signs" in Florida.

Mind you, I was surrounded almost totally by Cubans on the one hand and rednecks on the other, so maybe that explains it.

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:10 PM

Tsk, tsk, Murray...did ya ever go into a Hallmark card store or anywhere with greeting cards? And, usually there is some indication, i.e. text along with it which says "Peace." **bg** Maybe you need to move back for a refresher course.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:16 PM

Kat, I don't think the peace sign symbol has been consistently present through the years. It seemed to be all over the place in the 60's, then mostly disappeared for a long time. When I started seeing it again (this century?), it had a retro-hippie feel to it. I think Murray might have missed the periods when it was plastered all over in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:23 PM

I would like nothing better than to move back for a refresher course, believe me. Anything to get out of this snow and ice ...

Actually, thinking about it, there was one guy who used to play our open mike in Homestead, who either had the sign on his guitar or on the case, I can't remember which.

At no point however did he ever jab his finger in my chest and say "hey limey, I know what you are thinking, like this is an anti-nuclear logo, but let me tell you , this ain't no anti-nuclear logo, this is a totally universal peace sign".

Nope, I just went on thinking he was anti-nuclear (which of course he probably was) .

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM

^ in addition to being pro-peace, naturally

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: jeddy
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM

hey crow sister, have you given up checking your inbox???? LOL

love
j x x x x x x xx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:03 PM

This thread has actually brought to the forefront what is rather an interesting subject, namely the different visceral, gut-reaction response which different cultures experience when confronted with different stimuli.

The particular example I have in mind, which is probably of some relevance (or maybe not) to this thread, is the fairly common practice in the US of draping the Stars and Stripes in front of one's house, or flying it from a flagpole in the front lawn.

I found this weird at first, although I bet not one American Mudcatter would find it weird, having been accustomed to it from birth.

After a while, (it took a long while actually) I began to realise that this display of patriotism was actually something quite admirable, and of worth, and had none of the negative connotations which would have been implicit in the flying of the Union Flag in such a manner in a private house in Britain.

However, just try explaining the difference to any Brit who hasn't lived in the States, and you will get all the standard knee jerk responses about gung-ho Yankee imperialism etc etc, they will equate the flying of the Stars and Stripes with the flying of the Union Flag.

What I wonder is, can Americans see why the two situations are different, and if so can they appreciate it on the visceral level as opposed to the intellectual level ?

Like I say, it's all about gut response, and how people transfer their instinctive (or rather culturally induced) reactions to similar although not identical situations, and it takes time to change.

Having grown up with the CND logo, it will always trigger the "no-nukes" reaction in my brain, just as it will for Crow Sister, MtheGM, Howard Jones, and countless others of our generation in the UK.

We can't help it, it's hard wired.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:08 PM

memo to self: eliminate the word "actually " from vocabulary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM

A year or two ago, the" powers that be" in the fashion world decided it was time to introduce "60's retro" apparel--mostly, but not exclusively, for women, an mostly, but not exclusively, for young women, meaning teenagers.

Now there are any number of ways to evoke the ambience of the 60's, but by far the easiest and and cheapest way is to simply slap a "Peace Sign" on everything--given that in America, nothing has been done unless it is has been done to excess, this (which I actually found today in the Exxon convenience store) is the ultimate marketing exploitation of the "Peace Sign"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:01 PM

=== Second, MtheGM's comment:
-I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-
demonstrates, once again, how some folks over there really just love trying to lord it over us "colonials" as to their feelings of some sort of intellectual superiority===

Thus Big Mick, cited few posts later by MTed.

May I please draw attention to small word 'if' — a tiny word, but surely makes all difference to what I said: without it I accept that the post might well have been, what Katlaughing now claims she was solely attacking in her fragrant formulation 'a load of fucking crap'. But I did use it, didn't I!

So, please, my American friends [& I have visited US many times and have much family living there, in Chicago, LA {my initials are not entirely adventitious - Louis B Mayer was my 1st cousin 2ce removed, i.e. my grandfather's 1st cousin, tho the Cal branch spell surname slightly differently}, NY, Va ...; & I have always been made to feel at home & welcome in USA] —— let me just ask you all: which part of if, as they say, do you not understand?

Love - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:37 PM

Ahh... but at least you weren't related to Sam Goldwyn!

Love & best wishes for the New Year right back at you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

I honestly have to admit that the no nuke peace sign always had equal meaning to me. In the states it was mothers who first marched in great numbers and used the peace sign to advocate no nukes.
Anti war groups used the no nuke symbol as the peace sign.
same coin, two sides.

But if all you can muster is the ambition to argue more taste over cries of less filling, well, this phoney bologny controversy over peace signs was made for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ? Murray McLeod

Can you not turn that around and realize that it is EXACTLY the response we felt? You say that to your knowledge you had never run into the Peace symbol; we are equally adamant that we hadn't run into the CND symbol.

MtheGM says: "...if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-

Do you mean that you don't see that you had made the leap to saying that that was what we were doing. that in fact, we were persisting in protesting that it was just a peace symbol?

I think this is a dead issue, except for those who are reluctant to stow their cudgels.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 PM

Thank you Bill; & the like to you.

No, indeed — as to Goldwyn, include me out. But I revel in relationship to Cousin Louis B, as it makes, by my reckoning, the exquisite Judy Garland - whom I always loved, the only straight Friend·Of·Dorothy in captivity, that's me - my sort-of-Mistress-In-Law. There's glory for you! I have a Cousin Danny Mayer, nephew of Louis B tho I can't work out exact relationship to me, who always used to come over on her annual visits to London, on last of which she died, to dance in her company; so we all knew him. Next time you see Guys&Dolls movie, look out for the crapshooter in the sewer in the big green fedora hat — that's my Cousin Danny...

End of thread-drift. Back to the fucking crap, Kat & Jeri & Ebbie & all... & Love & HNY to all u-guize also!

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:59 PM

I heartily join in the Happy New Year sentiment. My favorite time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM

I LOVE Guys & Dolls! I'll watch out for your cousin next time it is playing.

Maybe we could all meet up at the International Peace Garden, some day. (I don't see any "peace" signs on that site!)

Little bit more history then I will stop. It's just interesting to me to find these things:

Women Strike for Peace (USA) A US organization of women, mainly housewives, who, initially defining themselves as apolitical and domestic, campaigned against the nuclear arms race and the Cold War. The organization was founded on 1 November 1961, in the form of a one-day national peace protest led by Dagmar Wilson and others. An estimated 50,000 women stopped their work in the home for a day to demand that President John F. Kennedy 'End the Arms Race—Not the Human Race'. Bella Abzug led the organization into the domain of overt politics in the WSP's campaign against the draft for the Vietnam War.
JAN PALMOWSKI. "Women Strike for Peace." A Dictionary of Contemporary World History. 2004. Encyclopedia.com. 29 Dec. 2009 .

A lot to explore in links at Swarthmore, too. They ask people to write to them to have their organisation added. I think someone should tell them about the CND. I didn't see it listed.

Jeri, that might be it, I forget how long Murray's been back in Scotland. Sorry, Murray!:-)

Happy New Year, MtheGM...glad to see you have a sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:40 PM

Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is--

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:36 AM

Well, just to make the discussion even more complicated, let me throw this bit in: to many of us who served in Vietnam, and were treated as subhuman scum upon our return by people wearing the "peace sign", that symbol represents, and always will represent, unreasoning hatred for people in the military and the equating of soldiers with the wars in which they are involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 02:54 AM

M TED writes =Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is-- ==

But the word 'if' surely qualifies or moderates the offending phrase — i.e. it shows the phrase would only be applicable in certain circumstances: i.e. in this case, persisting in the view that the previous history of the sign, tho previously unknown to its users, may still be safely ignored now that it is known. My point was that, surely now that they knew the facts of the previous history, they would cease to persist in such an ignoral, & so would demonstrate that they were not, in fact, such 'noodles' as to whom the phrase might be applied.

I trust that this will have clarified the matter to your satisfaction, and remain, my Dear Sir,

(with all best wishes for a very Happy New Year)

Your obedient servant
- Michael Grosvenor Myer MA FRSA MJI

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

I'm really not clear why we are still arguing about this.

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

For we Brits, the symbol has always represented a political movement and so far as I can see all of us contributing to this discussion were unaware that it had taken on this wider meaning. I don't think any of us has been offended by its use by Google, simply surprised, but that has now been cleared up.

We are now all better informed. To restate what I said in my earlier post, we should all be aware that it does have more than one meaning, and be prepared to make a mental translation to recognise the alternative/alternate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:26 AM

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

Howard, once again I say that you have it right. This thread is now almost 5 days old and in the first five hours that was already becoming apparent from the posts of artbrooks, Jeri, and Bill D. Within the first 50 posts a number of other Americans including Ebbie and myself had chimed in with something pretty similar.

In my first post on this thread I quoted from and then linked to the CND website which stated that the symbol had gone around the world and the meaning had expanded:

Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I think if you were to take a survey, intelligence of 'Catters is above any averages. Dumbfucks like myself may draw it down a lot but the it would still be well above the norms. Most American 'Catters would probably agree with the CND statement and your summation as well. On the other hand, I think it also probable that the average American would simply say, "Huh? I thought it was a peace sign thing.....One of those Hippie things from the 60's."

Either way, the folks at Google fell into one of those two categories and thinking they were sending a message of love and peace, used their little Christmas card drawing without any more thought than that! Obviously a mistake on their part.............

What set most Americans off, including me, was MGM's "if" comment. "If" MGM says so then I take his word he meant it so...........But "if" you use a phrase like that it generally implies the attitude that "Americans are ignorant, resource wasting, obnoxious, greedy, motherfuckers." We hear that a lot. Like most generalizations, it is based in truth but it paints a wide stroke.........one of which many are not a part.

Kinda' like "Yankee Doodle."   As Robert Wuhl once said, "We may not have been aware of the insult it was or aware of the Macaroni Club but we knew a good tune when we heard it!"

Happy New Year.....and be sure to try and post to the Worldwide Mudcat New Year thread.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:59 AM

I do understand your point, dear Michael--and we will leave it there. Happy New Year as well!