BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM

Is it my imagination, or is the Google logo displayed at the moment ( Xmas 2009) an anti-nuclear statement?

Just in case you are reading this thread after the Xmas hols and they have discarded the picture, , I have saved it here

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM

It ties in with the (political?) message of peace that is at the centre of christmas I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:21 AM

I was grew up believing that Jesus Christ was the Prince of Peace. What is "political" about peace?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:22 AM

Fine and fair. It's a message both sides should subscribe to.

Why stockpile A-bombs when everybody knows the first user is toast.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:22 AM

Pardon my awkward grammar. I grew up believing...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM

A)It's a message to which both sides should subscribe.

B) Why stockpile A-bombs when everybody knows THAT the first user WOULD BE toast ?

       QED

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:04 AM

Thanks for the grammar lesson rat, but I think they all understood my meaning, which is obviously more than you managed, since you were concentrating on something else at the time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:21 AM

Presumably, Google is made up of human beings who 'could' be concerned with the well-being of other human beings. I think a little holiday reminder of it is fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:30 AM

Is that a bomb? I thought it was a space ship, seeing that ours was a planet of peace (if only).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 11:01 AM

Of course, if you actually want the bomb, then I'm sure Google will apologise for offending you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 11:19 AM

Peace sign, space shuttle, fireworks...somehow I'm missing the objectionable symbolism. Explain, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:28 PM

I think a certain 'doth protest too much' disingenuousness is being manifested in these responses. The CND symbol [even if disguised under such a designation as 'Peace Sign'], however worthy in intention and sentiment, does represent one certain political view: one indeed, no doubt, to which most Mudcatters would probably subscribe; but still political nevertheless.

The OP's point was surely that if, as is presumably generally regarded as the case, Google offers itself as a disinterested medium for various opinions to be expressed, it would be seemly. would it not, for it to remain objective, rather than itself to come down on one side or another — as it would appear to be doing by offering this political symbol without comment in its "holiday" logo.

Whatever one's own views, this is surely the case, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

No, I don't think that it is. Having been reminded by another 'Catter via PM of the "original" meaning, I have to say that, as a USAian, I would never think of that symbol as indicating nuclear disarmament, and having some sort of direct association with left-wing politics, rather than peace in general. I'd really assume that the people who run Google, which is an American-centered company, think the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:31 PM

The symbol is based on the semaphore positions for the letters CND. Don't lecture me about it, please. I knew its designers and original users; I shared a Hampstead flat with the author of the movement's theme song 'The H-Bomb's Thunder'; he could not sing a note, so asked me after the first draft to sing it over to him to see how it sounded, so I can claim to have been the first ever to sing that song which became a protest anthem for millions! I am a veteran of the first CND London-Aldermaston CND march, on which I played guitar in Karl Dallas's skiffle group [there is a pic of me doing so on Folk Britannia], and marched alongside John Hasted, Pat Arrowsmith, Mike Randle — these may be names that mean little to you innocents over there who have stolen our sign as a vanilla 'Peace Symbol' — but, believe me, wherever Google may be based, its reach and aspirations are worldwide & I do not believe they don't know that that is a highly politicised symbol here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:33 PM

Good cripes. We object to peace now? Even if Google purposely used the nuclear disarmament to indicate a wish for universal peace, which I doubt, surely the sentiment is laudable. Not to mention I should think it would be less controversial than "Merry Christmas!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:39 PM

Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:51 PM

There are 'post cards' from different places. Google Holiday Logo There are palm trees in one and snowpersons in another, there's a cabin by a lake with a volcano in the background, then there is this one from outer space, with the sun, the space shuttle and 'peace on earth. Different holiday greetings from different places. I don't know the origins of the 'peace sign', but I'm pretty sure it is a fairly pleasant, mostly apolitical (different even from the 60s) symbol to most people now.

Perhaps it IS political, because the space shuttle certainly isn't from Zimbabwe or Mexico...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Ebbie — I think you cross-posted with mine. Read my last two posts, please. It is NOT just a matter of Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:56 PM

What artbrooks said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:31 PM

Mike the GM, when you query whether Google should remain objective "rather than coming down on one side or the other", are you saying that it is no more "seemly" for Google to promulgate "vanilla" peace as it would be if they displayed war! war! war! scenes? If that is your belief, I can understand why the no nukes/peace sign upsets you. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

Sorry. The above was I/me (depending upon how correct I am being) *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:52 PM

MtheGM, your posts on here (and on other threads) are shining beacons of dispassionate reasoning and fact in the midst of a sea of (mostly) fuzzy waffle.

Long may you contiunue to post on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:57 PM

I don't find your post very clearly expressed I fear, Ebbie. Could you perhaps clarify the point you are making?

The no nukes sign doesn't 'upset' me. I have expressed no opinion as to that. I was merely endeavouring to interpret the doubt expressed by the OP as to whether such a sign in Google's logo was appropriate in the case of what is supposed to be a forum open to opinions from all sides, which is surely what google purports to be. This seemed to me a point that many posters to the thread had failed to take on board. Of course evryone hopes for peace: but expressing this desire with a symbol which has always had a particular political axe to grind [even if some innocents over that side hadn't appreciated the fact] is perhaps not the eftest way to express this aspiration? That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:02 PM

ah, MtheGM.. symbols, like folk songs, get co-opted and transmogrified(To resort to technical terms).

Origins are important, and one of the blessings of Mudcat is that so many are here who DO know about various origins. I have been involved in several complex debates about various song origins, and learned much.

Because the symbol was so popular & easy to make, it has become, like it or not, part of the UNICODE set of symbols with 'peace symbol' as its name.

I am glad to know more of the origins, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle..(or some other muddled metaphor)

(I've been trying to make it by typing alt+262E, but I may have the wrong font enabled. .....Oh, so I see..."You need a font that supports this character to even have a hope of seeing it correctly in the browser.")

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM

Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM

☮ ! ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

I did it in Opera, using this little program

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

As the OP, I can assure everybody that I am not in the least "upset" by the appearance of the "no-nukes" symbol.

I do query the appropriateness of such a political statement on Google, just as I would query the appropriateness of such a statement on the home page of AOL or YouTube.

A dove carrying an olive branch flying in tandem with the space shuttle would not have been beyond the creative talents of the Google artists, surely ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM

☛clever, hmmm?>☚

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

Murray...since Google has many thousands of techs, it is anyone's guess exactly who designed and OR approved that particular little holiday logo. I'm sure they COULD have done any design,,, *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:52 PM

==Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people==

Define 'most people', Jeri. I don't want to stir things up, but the rest of the world sometimes gets not unirritated by the bland American assumption that what they might think on any topic has to be the opinion of 'most people'. We are a small island, but there are quite a lot of people here too, you know? Europe is a smallish continent, but...   

BillD - you can run a takeover of the symbol to irrelevant websites till you are blue in the face: the fact remains that it is based on the semaphore for the letters CND.

Artbrooks saw reason and copped out. [So did Jeri, but has copped back in again!]

Murray, many thanks for your kind comment of 2.52PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

"Artbrooks copped out"? Oh, not really. I am always interested in historical trivia. However, you are beating a dead horse of your own invention. This discussion is rather analogous of a person saying the ancient Indians (either kind) were really Nazis because they used swastikas in their religious art. What either symbol represented once upon a time to a specific group of people has nothing to do with what it means today. If you don't choose to accept that, it's your issue, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

From Wikipedia:

"The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) is an organization that advocates unilateral nuclear disarmament by Britain. It also campaigns for international nuclear disarmament and tighter international arms regulation through agreements such as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It opposes military action that may result in the use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons and the building of nuclear power stations in the UK.

"CND was formed in 1957 and since that time has periodically been at the forefront of the peace movement in the United Kingdom. It claims to be Europe's largest single-issue peace campaign. Since 1958, it has organised the Aldermaston March, which is held over the Easter weekend from Trafalgar Square, London, to the Atomic Weapons Establishment near Aldermaston."

Is this what is troublin' you, cousin? I don't know about other Americans but I had never heard of such an organization/project. And since I have no energy invested in the pros and cons of the issue I still don't see any inappropriateness of a private body advocating nuclear disarmament in the cause of peace. If Google were a government (The State of Google), perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

If nothing else, I hope that this discussion has proved educational to a few people.

I actually was unaware that the "no-nukes " symbol, which was such a powerful and iconic emblem when first minted , had become watered down across the Atlantic to become the "vanilla Peace Symbol" as MtheGM so aptly describes it. When I see the symbol, it still shouts CND to me. Obviously, that is no longer the case for a large number of people. More's the pity, IMHO.

Your swastika analogy is a red herring, Art, as there is nobody alive today who sees the swastika as anything other than a symbol of Nazism. There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.

"Two nations, separated by a common symbol" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Mmm, rather surprised that anyone misunderstands the classic CND anti-nuclear symbol!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Oh, I'm 30's & English - so I imagine most anyone of my generation would recognise the same image pretty clearly?

AND quickly, the CND marchers were anything but non-political!!! Yes the CND sign is very political - for good or ill depending on how you feel about it - but what it ain't is fluffy hippy bunny's for huggy peace 'n' stuff.

I expect you'll hear more from those who were in the thick of it all, after the hols!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

If you had never heard of the acronymn, CS, not surprising at all. Classic or not, it appears to be/have been a UK thing.

Does the heat stem from the suggestion that Britain disarm itself (Does the UK have a stockpile of nuclear weapons?) unilaterally?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM

""There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.""

And the removal of nuclear weapons from the world would not be a significant step toward the attainment of peace worldwide?

Is that your point, or do you have some logical reason for seeing a desire not to be blown to hell as a political stance?

I think, notwithstanding the fact that the originators were left wing, that desire is shared by all shades of the political spectrum, making this a complete non argument to which I shall devote no more of my time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

The Eighties were the major era for CND work - the cruise missiles were the big issue then.

I've never really thought about it, but clearly different continents have different movements - which is why I think CND is 'classic' but folks your way might never have heard of them!

So, what's the US's equivalent of CND? There must be an organisation like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

Don, I fail to see what you are getting your knickers in a twist about.

Everybody would love to see a world free of nuclear weapons, but unilateral disarmament, which is what CND is all about, is a contentious platform, and whether you, I, or anybody else agree or disagree with that particular stance is irrelevant. The fact remains, it is a contentious viewpoint.

I drew attention to the fact that Google had, as I thought at the time, made just such a contentious political statement. If they had used a dove of peace symbol, I would have thought no more of it. I am now satisfied that they were in fact not making a political statement, they were simply the victims of their own lack of in-depth knowledge.

If you do not see that it might not be entirely appropriate for Google, Microsoft, AOL, YouTube, Sky TV, or any other globally accessed interface to openly advertise a contentious political stance, then I am afraid I cannot explain further.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:14 PM

Google is, above all things, commercial. Whatever they feel will advance their bottom line, that's what they will go with. If anyone thought otherwise, they just bought into the last "stance" Google portrayed.

Biz is biz is biz. It's as true of newer startups as it is true nowadays of older, "trusted" brands-- biz is biz is biz.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:17 PM

Unbelievable...........Is this a "fight" over a symbol of peace? LMAO.....Only at the 'Cat.

There is no doubt to the origin but maybe we all need to take a detour to the CND Website and note they use it on the cover of their "PEACE Education Pack" as you can see. Now read the paragraph at the top. The first sentence really........It says(emphasis mine):

"CND Peace Education aims to empower young people with knowledge on peace and nuclear issues and support them in making their own decisions. Activities are all based on co-operative and active learning."

To help you a bit more if you choose not to go deeper on their sight, it also says, regarding the symbol history:

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. Bayard Rustin, a close associate of Martin Luther King had come over from the US in order to take part in that first Aldermaston March. He took the symbol back to the United States where it was used on civil rights marches. Later it appeared on anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and was even seen daubed in protest on their helmets by American GIs. Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I have to believe, based on that and the season and the other postcards GOOGLE used as the days went along, that it was simply another way to say "Peace On Earth"..........perhaps to a passing alien spaceship or whatever. I can't see how that is too political or at least it isn't blatantly so to my limited mind. Now if they had said "Kill All the Fuckin' Jews" or "Hang the Niggers" I would definitely have a problem as I would hope to believe the rest of you would as well.

........geeziz..............

Murray old friend, I love ya' and may I wish you a Merry Christmas or a Happy Holiday or even a Sloppy Easter Egg? Whatever you want I also send my wishes for peace in wherever and whenever through whatever!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:41 AM

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. [..] Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol."

How interesting - I did not know that it had become adopted as a universal 'peace' symbol internationally!

When I was growing up CND (among middle-Englanders) was considered quite a radical and militant organisation. And my guess is that the overwhelming majority of members at that time were pretty left-wing.

Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM

For anyone interested, the major story of the time was the women's peace camp at Greenham Common

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

If it gets Brown out - good news!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

just type PEACE into google images

on that evidence alone there is no political intent - nor did they go down the rocky religious route

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

On what evidence? Expound your logic please, Rafflesbear. I don't follow. --

Intent is not all — there could well be political overtone without intent — indeed, does not this thread demonstrate such to be the case here?

I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.

Macaroni! - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM

"The symbol is based on the semaphore positions for the letters CND. Don't lecture me about it, please"

by the way - the semaphore position for C is a diagonal from middle to top left - notably absent

perhaps we can put this down to the old saying "if you can remember the sixties you weren't there" and therefore proof positive that MtheGM WAS there :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:06 AM

The upstroke is the C — do a semaphore C for yourself & you will find your left arm is vertical.

Oddly enough, I wasn't 'there' in the 60s - in the sense that, just married [Mar 59], establishing self in new career as teacher [Sep 58 ···], leaving London for Cambridge for my wife's 'mature scholar' education [62], I was inactive in folk & in the hippy thing [for which I was a bit old being by then in my 30s] & all the other manifestations of '60s culture': becoming a freelance critic — theatre {for The Guardian] and folk-music [for The Times] — as well as a teacher at end of 1969 [first reviews in both papers appeared in same week in Oct 69].

So forget the 60s — I can remember the 30s, Sonny-Jim: lived right thru WWii in 40s; National Service officer, University, & career-launch thru 50s — so as the [alas deceased] lady said to you: Dont·Come·The·Cowboy·With·Me...]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

am I missing something?

every point of reference I can find shows C as I described it

looking from the front

/   =A down and to the left
-   =B horizontal to the left
\   =C up and to the left
!   =D vertically up

all with left hand pointing to the floor = downstroke