Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude

Subject: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 11:45 AM

My friends, changed a mike, working on balance and mike placement and recording levels for a new home made CD ... I need better ears than mine, can you have a listen and tell me what I need to change or tweek again. sorry to keep bothering you, recording is an art that I have far from mastered for sure and no one knows more about it then people here. This is one of my songs call what have i done right today ... don't care about the performance again, I just played it and sang it since I still do not know how to record separate tracks, what I am looking for is the balance and clarity , or any other suggestions to improved the recording from those who understand recording- any help much appreciated. Don't have the bucks to go into a studio

What have I done Right Today


thanks much
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM

I'll e-mail you, Dan.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

Hey 999 Thanks for the help my friend
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: JohnB
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:15 PM

Not that I know much.
I would personally like more "presence" in the vocals, I think that you can get that by being a bit closer to the mike. I think the balance could stand that too. Are you using just one mike?
It sounds a little thick too, drop the midrange tone control a bit a crank the high end a bit. See if it sounds any better.
That's what I would do (try anyhow).
Would sound nice with a fiddle backing too, if you have a friend who want's to play along and you can figure out how to lay down another track, what software are you using?
JohnB

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM

John
I am using Kristal and two phantom powered mikes, and a firewire recorder Yes I am a bit away from the voice mike I think also. I give the midrange a slide and kick up the highs a bit

Thanks
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Darowyn
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

Bearing in mind that I have only listened to your track on small headphones, I'd say at first hearing that you have a good song, a really crisp and good sounding guitar line, but if I were in the producer's chair I'd suggest that such a soul searching lyric would be better suited to a more intimate sound on the vocals. The guitar does sound warm and close, but the vocals are a bit different in ambience- a little distant and over-reverberant. Now a studio with top quality sound processing equipment could achive that from your vocal recording- if there was someone there that knew how to do it! If you want the low tech route to the same result, move closer to the mic. and rig up your room to cut down the natural reverb. You could make a sort of tent out of duvets (American Quilts will do!), or at the very least hang one on the wall which is behind you when you are recording. A Reflexion filter behind the mic and a pop shield in front of it will be all else you need make your room sound warm and peaceful.
You've done a lot right today. Your song and your recording are worth the trouble.
Cheers Dave|

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:09 PM

What have you done right today? More than I can say, I suspect. Good suggestions on here. Your earlier recordings had the guitar very much upfront, and the vocal almost an accompaniment to the guitar. The balance is much better on this one. I thnk you can do more to put the vocal up front and the suggestions on midrange and high are good, too. As you gain more confidence in your singing, Dan, You can bring more emotion to your vocals.

This is an important step forward for you.

Jerry (evenolderdude)

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:22 PM

Dave never thought of that wow, there is wooden closet door right behind the mike. thank you!!!!!! i am getting bounce for sure

Jerry thanks sooooo much for the help my friends

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM

I know very little about recording but it sounds like you need to be closer to the mike. Guitar was ok though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM

Thanks Captain !!

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

NEW test, is this any better just recorded it based on your suggestions, threw a blanket and pillows over the door

I am not much of a singer

test again

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:47 PM

Sounds OK to us, but we're not recording engineers....

~S~

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:58 PM

The second try was much stronger, Dan. The balance was much better on the vocal.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:59 PM

Thanks Susan, I replace the original version with this new one, the voice is pushed forward a bit more

thanks for you help
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:00 PM

Thanks Jerry, I replaced the original version now
appreciate the help so much ... can't do this alone at all

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Janie
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:07 PM

Great song, Dan. I also don't know anything about recording, but agree that the voice needs to be more upfront. In the second recording, you brought up the voice, but also brought up the guitar. To me the voice is more "present" in the first recording because the guitar was softer.

btw, you sing just fine.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:11 PM

Dan, I'd give the bushy hair off my ears and eyebrows if I could sing as well as you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:21 PM

Thank you my dear friends. This recording stuff is complex for sure. No wonder we have studios ... it is a science in itself and I am very dumb with it ... Thank you for making me smile

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:22 PM

Well I removed the second recording cause I made the first recording the second recording ... good grief I need a flow chart forgot where I was LOL

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:25 PM

My brother Bruce Murdoch is going to help me smooth out the lyrics. That makes me smile for sure.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 10:08 PM

One of Harry's, miss ya my friend
Any old Kinda day

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: JohnB
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

Please put back your deleted second recording, I would like to hear the improvements.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: deadfrett
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:25 PM

Dan- What I've done on my recording is to make "ghost" or scratch tracks. I'll do vocals with a guitar track that I erase later. This guitar could be electric guitar or acoustic. When I get the vocals fairly good, then I erase that track and can concentrate on the other tracks. The vocals being the most important will be done and you can add the rest as needed. Hope this is helpful, it seems to work for me. Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:32 PM

Thanks Dave, I will give that a try
DAn

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

Is the guitar 100% in tune? Just a thought...

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

Guitar is in tune, the singer is not LOL

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:55 PM

I hear what you mean, it is capo'd 2nd fret but I hear a buzz at the end. I don't have the capo tight good catch

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM

Hi Dan - good to hear your playing and singing. The voice/guitar balance is always a matter of personal taste. Over the years I've preferred to have the vocal up front and, also over the years, I've come to prefer the voice in "close" mode - I think it comes across as more personal and intimate.

I don't do much singing on video, but you might care to look at:

Guilty

I'm not holding this up as an exemplar - it's a very average recording with a very average vocal - but I think you'll get a sense of the intimacy of the voice. I also got the balance slight guitar heavy in the original take - so added a 2nd vocal track to balance it up. This second track was recorded with the voice fairly close to the mic.

Plenty of experimentation is always a good idea but, on balance, if the words are worth listening to, then bring them right up - you can sing intimately without drowning out the guitar as well. :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Dan - forgot to say: I now nearly always use small earphones to monitor what I'm playing, so I can hear what the recorded sound is roughly going to be like. The mic is a Shure SM58 going into a Roland 8-track - no DI, just pure mic.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:21 PM

Outstanding Will, great job ... wow ...
I can hear what you are saying on recording ... thank you for sharing that video ... it is awesome

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

another good thread on a tricky subject.
will try listening again later me broadband dont like the snow I think.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Tweeked a few settings and tried "across the borderline"
something missin , LOL other than a good guitar player and singer that is

across the borderline

Hats off to you sound guys ... this is hard ... I am gonna stick to fishin

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

OK I promise my final sound tweek, this is one of mine called
Lazy Afternoon, wrote it when I didn't want to clean the gutters LOL
Now I reduced the reverb, lowered the geetar, push up the vocals ..
gotta quit now cause it is the best I can do at home I think

Lazy Afternoon

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

It's getting there, Dan! Nice song (Lazy Afternoon) by the way. I'd still get the vocals a little closer to the mic, personally - but I'm not you, and you must do it your way.

Using a mic is really using another instrument and you can get a range of sounds, without resorting to FX, by altering distance, projection, volume, intensity, attack, etc. That's where singing "live" to an audience with a mic is a really good experience - gives you the opportunity to try all these things out. :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

You had me confused there, old dude- and you know how hard to do that is (!); I listened to the "first" recording and my thought was "I don't see anything wrong with the balance" then I come back and read on and find that you had already replaced the first try with the second one.

To me, the balance sounds good. And also, to me, the guitar level sounds fine. If you were using a pick it might have been different because it would have been sharper but with your fingerpicking, the slightly melancholy eel comes through.

By the way, that is my impression from the first notes; you have a nice opening there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM

An eel coming through bears a somewhat different message than a 'feel' does.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:43 PM

I like the idea of a melancholy eel...

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:04 PM

Ebbie and Will
Thank you so much .... melancholy eel LOL ... love it ... thank you for making me smile.   I keep pulling away from the Mike Will ... gotta get out of that habit ... I don't know why I do that ... then again I don't know why I do a lot of things I do LOL

Thanks again
Love

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: blogward
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

Hi Dan

Your singing, picking and recording is very good: but you are singing in 'top gear' all the time, as though you're trying to reach the back of the room. This is fine for an audience, but the microphone ribbon is only a few inches away. You should match the feel of your voice to the sentiment of the song - 'lazy', for example. You're losing emotion in the struggle to project, and you don't need to when recording.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:09 PM

ahhhhh,   thank you very very much. Yes I am doing that and not even realizing it ... so many things I need to learn about recording blogward. Thanks again for the help my friend I will try to fix that

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Janie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:48 PM

Again, no technical advice to offer, but definitely getting there with making the voice more present, especially with that last tweak. Aside from whatever the ins and outs of recording may be, on Lazy Afternoon, as you get further into the song, your vocals become more present and evokative. Perhaps as you got further into the song, you became less self-conscious about your voice, and so it became more expressive and warm?

And thank you Dan, for sharing all of this with us. What a talent you have!

Janie

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:26 AM

Hi olddude,

I've listened to the song, but I'm not sure if I was listening to the original version (i.e. pre-tweaking) or the later 'tweaked' version.
What I heard sounded a little 'bassy', particularly on the guitar, with the vocals slightly too low - only slightly, mind you, and not annoyingly so.
There's a bit of confusion with the site itself. I was taking the word 'original' to mean the original version of the recording (i.e. pre-tweak)but I think it actually refers to a song you've written, rather than a traditional one or one someone else wrote?
Anyway, quite apart from all that, it's a wonderful song, and you have a very good voice.
I'll take a listen to some of your other songs when time allows.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

Thanks Dave, yes "original" on that site meant ones that I wrote. And thank you so much for all of your help.

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM

Question?
Headphones or no headphones for determine balance. When I listen to Lazy Afternoon on the headphone, even after adjusting the volume I hear a loud thumping base on the guitar. On my CD player after burning it, the guitar sound perfect. Upon recording how does one judge, should I do it via headphones or burn and listen?

Help
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:39 AM

I do the final balanced output using a set of JBL speakers that look like aliens! Headphones are fine, but they give you a different sound and ambience to speakers. So, all my audio is played through these to get the final pan, EQ and volume levels.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

That recording sounds good to me.

But it's always hard to tell, listening to a single track in isolation.

that's why the best advice I have ever been given is: USE A REFERENCE TRACK.

No matter what software you're using (Cubase, Logic, Garageband, Reaper), you should be able to drag or import a WAV or MP3 (or aiff - format's not really important) of a song that you really like, with similar instrumentation, into your project.

Flick between it and your own song. It's amazing how often a mix that you thought was really bright and sparkly suddenly sounds really wimpy and trebly by comparison. Or how a mix you thought was really warm and beefy just sounds really muddy and dull.

I've been using some Jack Johnson songs as reference tracks. I hate Jack Johnson's music - I think it's really bland and smug-sounding. But the production on it is top-notch: very warm and analogue-sounding but with a crisp mid and top-end.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

Wow Matt, good good Idea ... excellent idea.
Will my friend, that is another great suggestion ... awesome. This thread has helped me so much my friends

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:01 PM

Tried to get more emotion in the voice as you kind folks suggested, so I redid Katie's song that I wrote for my daughters wedding ... hopefully this helps me not be so loud on the voice like I am performing live..

Katie's Song

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

Hey, Dan:
Being consistent is a habit that all of us have to work on. I used to go nuts trying to record the Gospel Messengers. Frankie has a problem remembering lyrics. When he was singing the lead, he'd belt out the lines he was sure of, and back off and sing softly. He'd do the same singing harmony lines. Even in songs with a simple chorus. his concentration would waver. When we are confident, with sing louder with assurance. If we are distracted, or our mind wanders, the volume goes down.

When I first started performing, I had to discipline myself to sing the chorus with the same phrasing each time through. I'd sung for my own enjoyment for so many years, and I've always loved being playful with phrasing that I had to remember that other people would be singing along, and I'd just mess everything up if I changed the phrasing from one chorus to the next.

All of us are guilty on occasion of fluctuating volume and attack when we sing. Last time I checked, we were all human. Recordings aren't human. There's the rub. You have to be completely consistent in your attack and phrasing for two and a half or three minutes. It's amazing how hard that can be sometimes. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:44 PM

I also find tracks from the Rick Rubin-produced Johnny Cash albums are useful (deep male vocal/strummed acoustic guitar) and I like how Chris Wood mixes things (lowish male vocal/fingerstyle guitar)

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:48 PM

Nuts is the right word Jerry, I am going to let it sit for a bit cause I am getting a headache trying to work out the details. I don't know why I am doing it actually since I give away any cd I do make and mainly they are for my kids. Your handful of songs really hit home to me. After I am gone I want my grand kids to know the songs of the family so I work at getting them right.

Thanks so much my friends
DAn

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

"All of us are guilty on occasion of fluctuating volume and attack when we sing. Last time I checked, we were all human. Recordings aren't human. There's the rub. You have to be completely consistent in your attack and phrasing for two and a half or three minutes. It's amazing how hard that can be sometimes. :-)"

well, yes, but if you're playing solo you can afford to be a fair bit inconsistent. I mean, consistency of phrasing never bothered the majority of the great bluesmen. And of course there's always compression that can be used to iron out any wild leaps in volume.

It's definitely worth trying to be ultra-consistent if you're going to be overdubbing a harmony vocal. Or if other people are harmonizing with you.

Regarding the vocals generally, one thing you might like to try, Dan, is duplicating the vocal part in your software, and panning each vocal part hard left and right. Then try adding a very small delay (between 20 and 70ms, say) to one of them. The two duplicates have to be panned quite severely, or they will start to phase (being identical). But the ear should hear them as being in the centre.

On headphones, the effect might sound slightly artificial, but on speakers it may well make the vocals sound smooth and thick. You don't "need" to do this - I think the vocals sound good - but it's a trick worth knowing about.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

Holy Cow Matt never thought of that, ahhhhh great Idea thank you thank you ....

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 01:18 PM

I like your Katie's Song very much, old dude.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 01:28 PM

thank you Ebbie, now if I can balance it better ... trying to get a new CD for the kids. Wrote some new songs just trying to record better it is a very hard task to do for me ... When I get it done I will give everyone a copy like before, hopefully it will be a better sounding CD

I appreciate your kindness my dear friend

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM

Last one St. James Infirmary had the guitar blasting and the vocals low so I did this as a test, trying to balance the guitar and the voice without overdoing either ... I am no singer . I tried Matts suggestion with the panning ... cool idea Matt thank you

St. James Infirmary

thanks for all the kind help, you folks really put me on the right track, now I gotta work on my phrasing ... this dang Pittsburgh accent of mine gets in the way of lyrics all the time LOL

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: JohnB
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:03 PM

St James is definitely getting closer.
It still has a bit of a boomy sound to the guitar. If you can get hold of a dynamic instrument mike, a Shure SM57 would be great, anything half decent anyhow, aim it at the twelth fret, angled towards the top of the guitar (not at the soundhole) and move the condenser mike at least three feet away and use a blend of the two. Or just angle the condenser away from the soundhole as much as you can.
The vocals still need to be closer for me, place the mike no more than about 10 inches from your mouth with a pop screen about 2 inches away (someone mentioned this earlier) and stay right on it.
If you don't have a pop screen make one from an old pair of tights and a coat hanger, embroidery frame or such.
If you are bothered about change in vocal levels you need a "compressor" they ALL use one, just don't overdo it or you may end up sounding like Cher when you get into the vocoder and pitch correction machines/software.
Most of all keep it up it's well worth it.
Heck when we all get your CD sounding great, we may get the urge ourselves to do something half as good.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM

John
thank you my friend, great suggestions. i been placing the mike right over the hole, never thought about it, thank you i will give it a try what you suggested. i got the windscreen about 8 inches away and i am about a foot or more from the mike so this info is a big help

thank you
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:56 PM

John
changed the position of the guitar on the mike and moved close to the mike for voice

Jelly Jelly Jelly

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:19 PM

My friends is this one better balanced, still working on it, I think I tamed down the geetar. gotta smooth out the picking on this, Just testing my setting on the recorder

In the Jailhouse Now

Thanks much
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 09:59 AM

Now you are getting there, with the recording stuff that is.
The voice and guitar always had the potential, nice relaxed sound.
So now you have to get nit-picky.
Watch your endings on the recording, your guitar has a lovely looong decay that you don't want to clip the end off, count to 5 or even longer and then turn off the machine. If you still have lost a bit do a short fadeout over the last second or two.
IF you want more perfection, try working with a "click track" it's like a metronome and would keep you bang on the timing (that is unless you ignore it sometimes, which I know I do)
Keep it up, JohnB.

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM

THANK YOU JOHN!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:56 PM

My friends,
Maybe just maybe I finally figured it out, is this recording ok for the press yet? Is it in balance now my friends. Just re-recorded "Chasing the Wind"

Chasing the Wind

Subject: RE: Tech: Some recording help suggestion - olddude
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM

I pushed the vocals way ahead on "Gonna see my baby tonight" also

I am going to get this recording stuff down if it kills me ... probably will LOL

Gonna See my Baby Tonight