BS: The Quakers

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:45 AM

Lorcan,

You are asking a hippo to do ballet dancing.

Take the Quakers for what they are - fundamentally good eggs, but incapable of changing their essential nature - which has its limitations. Less limited than some, but you seem to have located their boundaries - respect those boundaries and live with it.

For what its worth I have the same problem with the English folk scene, which seems to see the generality of the English population as infra dig.

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:00 AM

Dearly said, Al:

The problem is, that these issues over race, property and equality of opportunity rip our Meetings appart. The mean spirited evil things done, from censoring the 15 street google group to defamation of charactor, by people who have taken the power to lead in a faith where that is meant to be inpossible, our eldership committies are meant to guide towards unity, not be an eleat... well, these things cut at the very process by which we are meant to approach the lord together.

For years I simply advocated as a voice for those hurt by the Meetings, then there came a day that as an advocate for backbenchers and whistleblowers, I became treated as a threat to the comfort of the growing status quo, a meeting full of grumbling unhappy people who give up in the face of power.

We are to speak truth to power to everyone but the Quaker new age establishment.

It is a great loss. Our faith was once a great hope for sensibility and spirit.

All the best and my appologies for what others of my faith did to thee as a young person (we can add that to penitenturies and the temperance movement...)

Lorcan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM

The Pacifism aspect is something that I admired about the faith especially in a time when boys were conscripted into the forces to fight for King and Country in the last 2 World Wars. The treatment young pacifists received was appauling through lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM

Dear lorcan,

'My Father's house has many mansions.'

You obviously live in the west wing away from these other guys.

The whole point of Quakerism is that you don't stand in judgement of other mens souls and their testimony.

To be honest its why I just wandered off from Quakerism - judge not lest ye be judged is the toughest injunction to follow. it was totally beyond me.

Anyway its your call, but if I were you - I'd stop worrying about what other Quakers do. Do your own thing.

If it really offend you whats going on in your church - start another meeting. The Provisional Wing of the Quakers!

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:51 AM

Dear friends and Friends

Alan, thy immage of a hippo dancing is a wonderful opening. I have to run down and open the theater at 8 this morning, so I may not finish this in one go, as I also wish to comment on our process and varrious witnesses for peace... but, here goes.

Has thee ever seen a Hippo underwater? In the right place, in the Shaker sense (by turning we come 'round right) a Hippo can certainly dance. A Catholic friend once said to me that after she took her classes towards her communion, her mother said, "before you take communion and join the church, ask yourself is this where I hear God the loudest, don't feel you would disapoint me if you don't become Catholic, I want you to go where you hear God's voice the loudest."

Some one here asked what is Quakerism. I gave a short answer about empting the will to allow God in...

In silence, in waiting on the lord or for light in meetings for worship with an intent on business, we sit in silence to weigh our light, is it the corporate leading, or is it our ego.

Some in worship give self serving messages about their own goodness in varrious situations using themselves as examples. They speak week after week, and should be gently eldered, and sometimes are... it seldom works. The self osborbed are often a burden we must bear with love and tollerance.
On the other hand, in business meetings, there are those who bully and behind the scenes politic for the sake of pride and gain. Each member should have the power in a well disaplyned Quaker meeting to make the meeting pause and consider - as very often the minority view is proved by history to be the correct one, for example the underground railroad was always a minority undertaking in our faith, as was membership for Black Friends for some decades after slavery ended.

Without this loving restraint a few grow to lead backed by a good number in the meeting, a majority who, as Billy Bragg once said trade "anything for the quiet life) and a sad and tormented minority... (I'm sad, others are litterally tormented by what has been done to their children, their service to the meeting... and other things.)

When we abandon the method by which we approach God in seeking unity in the Meeting, for profit of the schools, so that we may use slave made goods - the product today of the unfree labor of our American neighbors now in prison... we cheepen the witness of those of us who refused to be sent to war. I cannot tell you how many in the Vietnam years looked at my status as a C.O. and said I was a coward.

If we do not courageously follow our faith, we can seem to avoid war for fear alone. Some of us then went to war as witnesses, not with guns, but with medical bags, with aid to the "enemy" in the form of food and medicine, or with a camera and note pad.

Yes, no human community is perfect - however, we Friends created a practice of disaplyn and eldership to make ours a corporate journey towards truth. When that is led without faith, well, we are damned.

Thine, Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:47 AM

PS... now down at work, on this silver brisk morning, I see Al, that thee has posted at the same time I have... we are on a common track.

I struggled against the schism in our faith between the Orthodoxy and the Hicksite tradition in which I grew up... which caused great pain for over one hundred years. Funny enough, it is the new age friends, to a great degree now at the root of the present schism which thee and I both descibe ... ging to where one hears God the loudest...

I say schism rather than new meetings, in that, in truth, I cannot see the objectification and polarisation of others as Quakerism... so it is not a simple hiving, which happens when meetings become too large, but rather, a split to return to that core of our faith. I find the abandonment of process reaches up into our yearly Meeting as well... and ... well, let me give thee an example.

As thee might know, recently British Yearly Meeting was informed by the British government that they must appoint trustees. The reaction gave great hope to some Friends in New York labouring with the issues of property.

In the US the government insisted on Trustees to deal with the split of huge amount of property to be split. For decades, we did not need to spell out that these trustees had no power, other than to rubber stamp the decisions of our gathered meetings speaking in unity.

Then, as the schools in New York began to petition to become independant of our ownership and eldership, Trustees began a grab at real power, arguing (quite litterally) that the state held them responcible, and as such gave them power to decide against the expressed guidence of a gathered meeting for worship with a concern for business.

I suggest at the next quarterly Meeting - as we revised the book of disaplyn (now called the Quaker hand book - easier to spell but loosing an important point I am afraid... =)    ) That we should adopt the language of British Yearly Meeting on trustees, that they have no power to lead, only to be led by the Meeting and convey that unity to the Government.

This minute was passed, then slightly changed in transcription at some point, then abandoned entirely, in practive while still in the handbook. Trustees began an internal threshing to decide on their own what their powers are, and have done things like apointing their own property committee which now has direct authority over the property committees which are appointed through Quaker process.

While all this is happening, there have been issues of missapropriation of funds brought to me, on Ministry and Council - which, I can only describe as being covered up. Those who brought the concerns over this were then black listed from service in our Meetings.

Now, yes, I can stay silent and wait for things to grow towards God... but, after being litterally put on trial by other members of Pastoral Care in my home meeting (an entire Meeting of PC dedicated to me... where everytime I replied to quierries put to me, I was interupted a few words in... laughed at, and sighed at by a Friend who when I asked her to please let me reply from a place of worship, was told she could not control her reactions as she was an "actress"...) so there comes a point where one cannot stay in process with others, and so in silence promote the untruth that all is well.

Part of the problem is that there is a small handful of us who grew up in this meeting, at a time when, though there were grave concerns, the begining of the Vietnam war, and the healing of the great schism... we labored together lovingly. Issues of property did not pull us from the Quaker way of living in the world but not being of the world...

Today, there are worldly and violent trends in our Meeting, for example censorship, which I cannot see as the faith in which I grew up. I am not alone in this, and it looks like we might return to house meetings. I don't know, the idea of schism really does not sit well with me, so I bide on a witness of absence, which I find very painful.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

InOBU,
    Very sorry to hear of the difficulties you've been having with the worldly trends in your meeting. You seem to me the embodiment of the earlier Quakerism that my own ancestors practiced, idealistically embracing pacifism, tolerance and brotherhood. From reading your posts, I fear that this idealism may be slowly disappearing from Quakerism and from the world, and we are all the poorer for it.
    BTW, what you said twice now about emptying the will to let God in reminds me of the Zen parable where the master cannot give Zen to the student until presented with an empty vessel. Not surprising because I always thought that the old style meetings were more meditative than most forms of Western religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

Friend Lorcan,

I certainly am in unity with most of your comments. I still think most Quaker schools.... Both my sons went to Quaker schools. Westtown which is probably less Quakerly than you and I would like but did not take from him the values I had instilled. Argenta FS (now defunct) which was superb in most of the ways we might hope. Neither son is heavily involved in Friends now nor any mainstream religion. They still carry most of the values Mother strove for. They are people I can respect.

I do not have very good recall so I may post more another time after re-reading! We certainly have more in common, than not.

Dorothy

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:22 AM

Dear Friends:

I should say, after musing on this for a day, that it is not the schools alone that are the problem, they are the symptom. Rather it is the general dumbing down of the USA, due, in part to the efforts of one of the two Quaker presidents, Richard Nixon.

I hear tea cups clatter down, and coffee and tea sputter out soaking computer screens from Kansas to Kingussie. "What's he on about now?"

Well... Nixon blaimed the sixties on several things. One, the news media, the other, social studies in education. In forming the present culture of greed, in which Nixon was a pioneer and trail blazer, he worked to achieve and end to liberal news gathering and an end to social studies in grade school - break the teaching of a culture of liberty in America.

On the news front, CBS, in responce to the stated goal of Republicans taking over news corporations brought in Larry Tish, what passes for a liberal among the rich, to bolster up the corporation so that it would not be taken over by someone like Murdoch. Tish, not being a newsperson, invented the news magazine format, and in the nightly news brought the "if it bleeds it leads" reporting to TV. Violence was removed from context ( for an example compair US TV to Canadian TV news... CNN vs. CBS.) All this was a part of the dumbing down of the USA... the news bite culture.

So... how has this effected Quakerism. I remember as a young child in First Day School being taught things which adult Quakerism classes today never get to... we were enculturated in the process of our faith.

As a very young Friend, we were led to understand our faith by Anna L. Curtis, the Quaker writer and grandaughter of Underground Railroad conductors. At around 10, we began to think deeply about the delemmas of living in the world but not becomeing part of the world, with Peter Fingestine. I remember his reading with us, a New York Times artical on territorialism among humans and other primates and discussing with us, how, can we as Friends - work with these parts of us, dictated by nature ... by God, and still build the peaceable kingdom.

By 12, with Herb White we were talking about what sin is in Quakerism, separation rather than rule breaking... in short, in Frist Day School, we took serriously the last part of Hillel's instruction to the Roman soldier in the conversation with Shimai... "Do nothing to another which is abhorant to thyself, that is the Torrah and the rest is commentary, love God with all thy heart, now go and study." It is the now go and study part that has been lost.

First day school is taught in a way which is little more than baby sitting. Now I know a lot of very faithful R.E. folks will be hurt by this, and say, "NO! We did the peacefeather pagent last year!" But, unfortunatly, this generation teaching, grew up on Seasime street, and has no understanding of the difference between the sound bite culture and the last glimmerings of the enlightenment which gave us birth and died of a masive heart attack with the sudden apearence of the muppets as the mentors of their generation.

Many Quakers think, a) Quakerism is a set of liberal conclusions, B) it happens magically because God talks to thee and not you. So, I hear New Age Quakers go on about channeling God in Meetings and laying it on the rest of us... the listening to God in others seems to be a sort of ... oh... politeness which may be given a nod without a handshake... a bless you after a sneeze.

Well that is a good start from me, I will settle into silence for a bit and see if this plants seeds with any of you out there, either thorn bushes or corn.

Thine, dearly in the light
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:40 PM

Friend Lorcan,
Thou hast become too wordy for me to follow. Simplicity in speech would be helpful.

Ironic is it not that both "Quaker presidents" were not really very Quaker? Hence, imo, not worthy of comment.

You had a better FDS than I. I had to do my learning about Q tradition, thought, organization and procedure as an adult. I am currently involved in defining consideration, discernment, clearness and clerking.

Schools, generically, are, in general, a hazard to our young. The movie Waiting for Superman spoke to my condition. It seemed to be a follow up on the paper I wrote for Sociology of Education in 1971. Forty years later and....

The reason given for plain speech in my area was that "you" and the honorifics, short versions of Master and Mistress, were only given to equals and higher ups. The lower classes were thee and first names. In choosing to treat each person as an equal, the Quakers eliminated the honorifics and referred to all by thee. In French it is referred to as "tutoyer" and I had to explain to my French teacher why I would only tutoyer.

peacefully,
Friend Dorothy

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 08:55 AM

Ah simplicity in speach... I often try and find the least words for a message in worship, that inner core, once I delivered a message which was only 14 words long, I was latter told, by a Friend who often spoke for hours...

Writing is a bit different for me... how can I spare immages when our friend Alan conjures up a dancing Hippo? In the words of the old Quaker song... how can I keep from singing?

I think thee may be a bit hard on our Friend Herbert Hoover. I do often make a joke at his expence... We Quakers have given the world two American presidents, Richard Nixon who is an example of our testimony of peace and honesty, and Hoover who is an example of Quaker business sence.

But, in all seriousness... I don't think there is a comparison between Hoover and Nixon. Hoover went to Meeting, even in the White House when he could not go to other Meetings. I do think it is impossible in the world to be a president and a Quaker... I try not to use the terms, "our government" or "our president." I have no guide to my soul other than God. I try to live with out too much insult to the government, or be led into evil by the government.

I am in unity with thee on schools... this is why we built them in the first place, so our children would not be encultrated into a national identity from which we stand aside.

THee and thy is much simpler. You is a plural, which is why I use you and thee in the same sentence, depending on if the speach is directed at one or many... YOu Quakers... thee Dorothy...
Friends mind thy worldly leanings... Dorthy thy note is deep and weighty...

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 05:57 PM

Dear Lorcan. I am much moved by thy account of thy problems. They bring to mind the meeting of the minister and a few deacons of the Congregational Church in Dover which reduced my mother to tears and left her wandering the town rather than going home so that my father would not be moved to go and address them. The matter concerned something to do with the Junior Church which she had been asked to run, but she was never told exactly what, was prayed at and told not to be unpleasant when she attempted to answer. This is why we left that Church and I am now a Quaker. I have not met anything quite like that in the Friends over here. It is pretty disorientating when that which one belongs to and feels to be the pond in which one swims and which gives one life suddenly turns out to be completely different. Especially when it considers that it is oneself which is in error.

I trust that you do find a place where you can share the Light with others again.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM

They make little individual serving sachets now that take only a few minutes in the microwave. Very tasty. Great for tightening your insides if you were on the stout for a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:42 AM

Dear JTT: THee is right in the present day, about the rareity of voilence against children, as far as I have seen... but into the 1960's many Quaker families saw a difference between hitting a grownup and corporal punishment of children, oddly enough.

National statistics found, among Quaker families, back then, as much voilence, even violent abuse among Quakers as others. It is one of the positive changes... the spare the rod thing has been abandoned.

I also must say, I remember in the sixties my dad and the other niccotine addicted Quakers racing out the side door of the Meetinghouse to grab a smoke after having to go a whole hour without a ciggy.