BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

""Don, I'm sure that's the experience of many people. I have a friend who, having failed her 11-plus, went to a Sec Mod where she came across inspirational teachers. She is now a Judge.""

That's my point. This government regards that kind of education system as elitist, but the results do show that, with proper teachers the fact that they are not constantly chasing high fliers actually helps the Secondary Modern pupils to achieve their potential, rather than being left to quietly sink out of sight.

The biggest problem with education today is not elitism, nor discipline, nor absenteeism, nor ineffectual teaching.

It is GOVERNMENT!

Head teachers have been turned into bursars, and administrators, with no time to spare for managing educators. Teachers have been turned into bureaucratic slaves, and buried under an avalanche of government paperwork.

If they would only butt out and let educators educate as they once did, then Britain would again be able to supply the rest of the world with the finest scientists, engineers, inventors, and educators, just as we did in the fifties and sixties.

Remember the "Brain Drain"?.....All those guys were educated in the Grammar/Secondary Modern system, and many of the best of them came from the Secondary Modern part of the system.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM

I must step forward and defend Nottingham, the well known terror city where you WILL get your hair parted by a dum dum bullet twice a week (according to the redtops and certain TV programmes).

The city has always had its rough bits - for a pretty accurate flavour of the 1950s, read "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning" or watch the film. In the 60s I went to a very well regarded school which was unfortunately situated in one of the city's red light districts, and ladies touted for business at all hours. Then and later it was pretty easy to obtain purple hearts, black bombers, dexies, wacky baccy etc in very respectable cafes (remember the Kardomah anybody?) If you go back further to the early years of the 19th century you will find that there were 156 inns and beer houses in a very small area. "Nottingham Lambs" were then known as groups of chaps you didn't cross on a Saturday night!

Reference the current binge drinking issue, I don't actually believe the current "300 pubs in a square mile" canard, but certainly there are some truly horrible drinking factories now. But who closed down the 4 traditional Nottingham breweries which owned their pub estate and didn't hound managers to maximise drink sales? Big Business helped by politicians. Who aims their marketing they do, whatever they say) and powerful sickly sweet alcopops at kids who can't take their drink? Big Business again. Who owns half of Burton on Trent? Coors, a multi national. Who separated pubs from brewers and encouraged the advent of pile-em-in alcopop bars? Politicians. Who   
can get these places closed down? Police and the justices. Who don't? Police and the justices.

Nottingham's no different from anywhere else really - these days it's all about making a fast buck and keeping the shareholders happy. But there are plenty of places even in 2010 where you can enjoy a pleasant pint and, whisper it, go to a good gig - without danger to your life or sanity. Try the Maze, the Vic, Rock City (well maybe not!) and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:04 AM

Don, I'm sure that's the experience of many people. I have a friend who, having failed her 11-plus, went to a Sec Mod where she came across inspirational teachers. She is now a Judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:03 AM

BTW Lizzie, just for information, and without any implied criticism, the man you were quoting re giving the populace someone to fear, was not that amiable buffoon Hermann Goering.

It was the rather less personable, but cunning and manipulative Josef Goebbels.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 10:48 AM

""Elitism" lies not in enabling the able, but in devaluing those other than the elite. Subsidising the opera while doing nothing to aid (and indeed much to attack) folk music is elitist.""

No need to lecture me on the definition of elitism, which is of course, exactly as you state.

It is New Labour which needs educating, since the use the false spectre of "elitism" (their meaning of the word) to stifle the able and keep the young as uniformly dumb as is necessary to prevent their seeing the shortcomings of the party in government.

At the age of eleven, I was way ahead of my younger brother, who was not academically inclined, so I won a scholarship to a top school and he went to that old fashioned second choice, a Secondary modern. We both achieved the best we could and finished highly placed at "O" and "A" level GCE.

He is a very talented artist and teacher, who achieved a masters in fine arts working from home.

I, being low on ambition, eventually qualified as a Carpenter and Joiner.

My point is that he would have floundered at grammar school, and I did not, but neither of our careers were defined or confined by that difference.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 09:57 AM

And naturally as a Yorkshire person I would buy Dave a beer. We started off on a binge drinking session but after he bought me one we stopped.

Such generosity between folk normally separated by the Pennines is not seen as normal. United by a common foe.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:58 AM

Glad to see I am back on track with my victimisation prediction though:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:55 AM

I suggest you read the thread and follow the conversation properly

Following one of your conversations is beyond me I'm afraid, Liz. I would rather stick pins in my eyes. Probably as a result of being a product of the education system...

Thank you.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

"I think Folkiedave is wonderful (he bought me a pint once) so please do not criticise him. Thank you."

No surprises there, then.



And if you want to see why Patch Adams was mentioned, I suggest you read the thread and follow the conversation properly, rather than nipping in and out of it simply to 'Lizziebash'.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

So we are now on Patch Adams? how did that happen?

I gather we are not allowed to criticise anyone that Lizzie considers to be wonderful? Can I make that same request please? I think Folkiedave is wonderful (he bought me a pint once) so please do not criticise him. Thank you.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:58 AM

In making this post I am probably leaving meself wide open for a pasting ; but

In the days when I could take alcohol (many moons ago, now, the gods be praised) I never seat out to get deliberately pissed, nor did anyone I was at Folk Club with. Oh, it happened - with bells on.

Which is why I am at a loss to understand the young'uns of today.

Pissed at 10 p.m

Legless by 11p.m.

Fighting at midnight.

Carried home on a door at 1 a.m. via A & E, having set out to get deliberately pissed.

When I was serving my apprenticeship to a pisshead, if I or any youngster went out of order, we were liable not only to get barred out, but also to get battered by older men who were put out by such conduct.

I still do go to a pub, for live music and/or a meal, but what I would consider conduct out of order is no longer the subject of sanctions (consequences, as Richard said - nice to see you are back), but seems to be

positively encouraged.

I think I have become my parents :-).

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:14 PM

What the binge drinkers need is a little self discipline. They get that by learning that if they step outside bounds it is unacceptable - and has adverse consequences. Consistently.

Women are human beings too and entitled to make their own choices. They are not rentawombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:53 PM

Spot on, leveller. Even if flexible working isn't available and a *gasp* childminder is used, you're usually talking about a 1 - 2 hour window in between a child getting home and a parent doing the same. Not exactly running feral, are they?

But Lizzie, your quickness to make value and moral judgements about the way that many of us raise our children does raise certain questions in itself. After all, you've made a choice to keep your children out of school (I won't say "home educate" them, because to me that implies giving lessons, monitoring progress and having some kind of teaching structure, none of which you agree with), so you are presumably at home with your kids all day and are responsible for supervising and spending time with them 24/7. But between your numerous fan pages, your huge Myspace, and all the thousands of words you have written about bands, not to mention the many, many lengthy diatribes and skirmishes on various websites, you must have spent absolutely thousands of hours on line in recent years.

So instead of worrying about who is raising our kids, I'm just wondering, Lizzie: who's raising yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

And somewhere in here is a thread I started about Patch, but I don't know how to find it...GRRRR....lot of info in there though..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:06 PM

"A question for Lizzie: is the 'Patch Adams' that you have quoted, attacking the 'fame industry', the same one who let his life story be made into a Hollywood film starring Robin Williams ? "

Yes, that's the man. I believe the money went to help the building of Patch's hospital...which he has given his life to raising funds for.

Patch Adams is NOT a superstar. He does not seek publicity.

How do I know?

Because I spoke to those in his office a while back now, about making a Myspace page, in his name. I wanted to try to get Patch's message out as far as I could...and, having noticed there was no page for either Patch or his Geshundheit Institute I thought I'd see if I could help.

They told me they hadn't seen him for ages, because he just 'takes off' and does his own thing. They too were desperate for him to promote himself more on the internet, but Patch doesn't like computers, won't ever deal with them and doesn't carry a phone either.

In short, when Patch is out, he's OUT..and that's that.

What is he out doing?

He's out visiting patients, making the laugh, caring for them. He's out spreading his message, about changing the way we think of medicine and caring for the sick and dying. He's out trying to recruit more and more doctors to think as he does, and this isn't difficult for him to do.   He travels around the world doing this, on his own, with no camera crew, no TV crew, occasionally phoning into his office to see how things are going.

Read his book, Smedley.

And please, don't criticise Patch Adams, because he's a wonderful man!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:54 PM

But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?

And if there is only one parent around for whatever reason, and there is no grandparent around, who earns the money?

Or is the state (the nanny state you constantly denigrate) supposed to provide the money for food, rent, clothing whilst the lone parent stays at home looking after the children?

Parents do split up, people fall in love with other people, families break up etc. What happens then?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:07 AM

"But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?"

People don't work 24 hour a day, 7 days a week. By 5 children are at school for most of the day and flexible working hours mean one or other parent is on hand when the kids come home. All my kids have gone to nursery from an early age and they have all loved it - making friends who they have kept throughout school and beyond. A big advantage is that when they do start school they are with children they have grown up with and feel very secure so it isn't a trauma. Many teachers will tell you that these children often do better, especially in the early years, as they have greater independence and social skills, are better at sharing and work much better in groups than those who have spent all their time at home. I can vouch for all of that.

The other benefit is that time then spent with parents is real 'quality' time and the kids experience a greater variety of activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:02 AM

Oh - one final thing

Please, don't be a hypocrite, there's a good lad.

Tell you what, Liz my dear girl, you treat everyone else with the respect you seem to expect and I will see what I can do:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:02 AM

A question for Lizzie: is the 'Patch Adams' that you have quoted, attacking the 'fame industry', the same one who let his life story be made into a Hollywood film starring Robin Williams ?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

I have no problem at all with conversation wandering anywhere it wants, either in or out of the pub, but anyone who wants a sensible debate should stick within reasonable bounds. If you want a conversation, feel free to wander but don't then complain at the bullshit that gets spouted by everyone.

As to -

Threads are no different, they merely become woven into a tapestry of thoughts.

It doesn't bother me one bit.

If it bothers you, then please don't read the thread, it truly is that easy.

Well, saying your threads are a tapestry of thoughts is certainly one way of putting it...

It doesn't bother me in the slightest but where there is incorrect statements, flawed logic and total rubbish I cannot help but point it out. You have asked, often enough, for consideration of how your brain works. Well that is how mine works - I see bollocks, I say bollocks. Surely that doesn't bother you does it? If so, I suppose you need not read my posts. It truly is that easy.

Oh, and I don't recall ever changing the subject to try and steer people away from the crap I have spouted earlier. Not that you would do such a thing of course...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:36 AM

David, it's called....'conversation'.

Now this is a strange one, of course, because tell me this, why is it OK for you to go completely off tangent in a thread, but never for me?

And my posts are all connected up.

Please, don't be a hypocrite, there's a good lad.

Leveller...If you decide to have children and a career, that's fine, but, imo, the children are by far and a way the more important of the two. I have a right to feel that way, just as other women don't. It's my freedom of choice too ya'know...

What bugs me, and upsets me, is children who don't get their parents time, and this is sometimes not the parents fault because there is no option but for both parents to work, in order to pay the bills, these days more than ever before.   

But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?

It's just my opinion...and I did put that bit in, that women who CHOOSE to have a full time career, even when they don't need the money, and who have children as well, are depriving their children of something very special, that's all, particularly in the early years before school starts.....and I'm talking about mothers who love their children in the 'special' bit there, not ones who treat them as if they're dirt, hit them, abuse them etc.


And David, again...tell me this, if you're having a conversation in a pub, or wherever, do you stipulate, before you start, that NO-ONE is allowed to take your conversation off-topic? No, of course you don't...it's where conversations lead, down many paths...

Threads are no different, they merely become woven into a tapestry of thoughts.

It doesn't bother me one bit.

If it bothers you, then please don't read the thread, it truly is that easy.

There are a helluva lot of kids out there who don't have the love from their parents that they should, so they seek it out in 'gangs' and get led down many wrong paths....It happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM

Agreed, Leveller. My daughter is thriving and happy. She would not have many of the advantages and opportunities she has if I did not do the job I do - she has been to events and festivals where I was working, and taken friends along - she loves it. She has a standard of living that is possible because I work. For example, we went to Venice last year, just the two of us. It was an incredibly bonding experience and one both of us will treasure in the years to come.

I have raised a happy child who is thriving at school, who is not off her face on drink and drugs or shagging round the town. Do not undermine my choices because they are not the same ones you have made, Lizzie. I think stay-at-home mums are perfectly entitled to their choice, and I think I am equally entitled to mine. And having a bit more money around the place isn't just about being able to buy your kids possessions; it's about giving them experiences. If kids want to do out-of school activities and clubs, it's nice as a parent to be able to facilitate that. My daughter has the opportunity to do an exchange to Japan this year with her school - I will pay part of the cost, her dad will pay part, and she has to earn the rest herself. But if I was not working I couldn't afford to even think about giving her this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go and stay with a Japanese family and see the country from the inside. I firmly believe that travel broadens the mind, and that you get a much more balanced perspective on your own culture by going and experiencing others, so this is a priceless life experience, in my opinion, and I'm glad I can give it to her.

Some of my daughter's friends have mums who have stayed home, and some have gone out to work. Can I categorically say that the ones with full-time mothers are markedly more stable and happier? Absolutely not. One of them, in fact, is round here constantly because she and her mum don't get on. In her case, her mum re-married and has two small boys, who take up a lot of her time. Their dad has also insisted that his children are privately educated, so the boys are at the local prep while the two older girls, from the first marriage, are at a state school (they can't afford for all of them to go private). Their mum is a full-time parent, but not all her children are getting the same level of parenting. So it isn't down to "working mums bad, stay-at-home mums good" - it's about individual situations, some of which work and some don't.

So, happily, for those of us in the real world (and not the one that exists inside Lizzie's head) it's not such a nightmare dystopia: it's not perfect, but for the most part our kids are okay and we're reasonably happy. As someone who stayed at home for a few years, and has variously worked part-time, full-time, in an office and at home, there is only one thing I've learned: there is no perfect solution. All you are ever doing is trading one set of compromises for another, and you have to try and choose the permutation that works best for you as a family.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:04 AM

I admit I was wrong and apologise to Lizzie.

My prediction, some time back...
We are now at change of topic number 1 and just one cry of victimisation. I predict at least two of the former, half a dozen of the latter and at least one threat to leave altogther before the thread reaches it's inevitable closure:-)

There have been far more than three changes of topic, or tactic at least. Just off the top of my head -
Binge Drinking
The Education System
Working Mothers
Government control
Rally cry to rebel against 'them'
Comparison to Russia
(I find the last two interesting - We are to rebel against the state and yet the country that did that is castigated. Ah well...)
I am sure there are more but I gave up.

BUT - and here is the thing I apologise for - There has been only one allusion to being victimised or stalked and no call at all for the thread to be closed! My hat is off to you Lizzie. Now, if we can just work on those tangents...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:40 AM

"Children, imo, should come first, not 'Careers'..."


What I believe should come first is the freedom of women (and men) the have a personal choice in how they run their lives. Working parents do not have a detrimental effect on the lives of their children so long as their needs are also catered for and the work/home balance is adjusted accordingly. Most employers recognise this these days and offer the flexibility in working hours that allow it. My wife and I both work and our two children are happy, well-adjusted kids who are doing well at school/uni and have lively and busy social lives and a wide range of interests. Far better to have parents who are happy and fulfilled and enjoying their careers as well as their home lives than to have fretting, bored, resentful parents whose only role is to pander to their children's whims. Parents are people, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:10 AM

>>>>>Here's Lizzie on women earlier this year:

Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

Women should be free to be who they want to be..

And note Lizzie - not a personal attack - simply noting what you wrote and how it contradicts what you currently write!<<<<<


Where have I stated in this thread that women do not have the right to be what they want to be????? I have stated that Motherhood should be regarded as far more important than it is these days, as once it used to be...And I have stated that if you choose to have children then you have a duty and responsibility to those children, and that they should come first.

If a woman chooses to be a mother, first and foremost, and wants to remain a stay at home Mum, then that is her freedom, Dave. She should be given absolute support and respect for that fact, not sniffed at for 'not having a job'...because she has one and it's the most important jobs in the world, because you are raising the next generation of humans.

On many forms you are either considered to be a Career Woman or nowt. It's crap. So many times I've heard "Oh, I'm sorry, I don't have a 'box' for 'Mother'. I need to know what job you do."

If the women of the Middle East want to be company executives, ice-cream sales folks or anything else, then good for them. If they want to be Mothers, then good for them also. It's their choice, or it SHOULD be.

But for most women to have a full time job and children, creates problems of time, love and tolerance...Many women now are saying they realise that the dream of 'You Can Have It All' is exactly that, a dream, because somewhere, something has to give under all that pressure and so often, it's the children.

Yes, there ARE Dad's who stay at home and raise their children whilst their partners work, and I'm sure many of them do a bloody wonderful job, but they are still in the minority, and like it or not, Mother Nature, for whatever reason, designed the female of the species to have the children, and in nearly all species that's so, along with the females raising the children...unless you're a Seahorse or a few others, before everyone points this out.

Children, imo, should come first, not 'Careers'...


I still remember a woman in the bed next to me, when my daughter was born...staring at her new baby, saying anxiously, that she was really worried that her social life was going to be comprimised by 'this'...and how she loved sports, going out, her career...etc..and I felt so bloody sorry for that child. Basically, it had just hit her...

John, I've very often stood up for men in here, and I feel that they've been pushed to the sidelines terribly by the feminists, as have women who want to be full time mothers.

My Dad gave me a very different kind of love to my mum....so I know only too well how important men are..but I'm merely saying that children are bloody important too and putting them into the care of the State, as we are being brainwashed to do more and more these days, is sooooooooooooo damn wrong.

We have created many parents who don't know how to be parents and the effects of that can be seen out on our streets, as so many unhappy young people seek to find the meaning of life from the bottom of a lager can..

(And for the record, I regard people in the 20s and 30s as 'young' people...because I am 346 years old these days, so this is not *just* aimed at teenagers, but there IS a huge teenage drinking problem in this country, as well as in the other age groups)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 10:23 PM

Mike, there is a big difference between a basic philosophy of Kinder Kuche Kirche as it was once known and a simple aphorism (whether whisky or gin).===

I know, Dave. My point was that one can agree with the aphorism [whichever - 'To me way-hey-hey & we'll all all drink whisky AND gin'] without buying into the whole gestalt. All you are doing is repeating the point I make in simpler words for the thickos out there who couldn't geddit without having you interpret for them. Just a leetle patronising of you mebbe?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM

Mike, there is a big difference between a basic philosophy of Kinder Kuche Kirche as it was once known and a simple aphorism (whether whisky or gin).

Here's Lizzie on women earlier this year:

Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

Women should be free to be who they want to be..

And note Lizzie - not a personal attack - simply noting what you wrote and how it contradicts what you currently write!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 07:09 PM

M the GM - surely it was whisky.

John - compare my family.   Doing OK. I was at work so clearly I was not necessary (save biologically).

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

Lizzie - Fatherhood is just as important in a family scenario. My daughters of 31 and 30 and my wife of 32 years may agree or disagree of course, but I believe that fathers are just as important in their own way, and there are far too many fathers letting there children down. Far too many mothers too for that matter. Due to cheap booze - that's such an easy a target to blame. Poverty in our society is rife, and that is often the start of many a breakdown of family values.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

Thank you, M....

I despair of folks who now think that wanting Motherhood to be given back its significance, is akin to being in the BNP.

YEESH....

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM
"For a woman to consider a job or career more important than having children is, quite literally, unnatural."
"Instead of complaining that nature prevents women from having successful careers women should embrace the career nature has ascribed to them - motherhood."
London BNP organiser Nick Eriksen
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So far as I understand the point of above post, GUEST seems to think that, because something was said by someone with whose overall weltanschauung we nearly all disagree, it can't be right. This is a naive view. Even members of the BNP may occasionally be right about matters neutral to their main platforms. Or, in this instance, the fact that Lizzie might hold the same opinion on one particular issue as a BNP spokesperson doesn't, ipso facto, make her wrong about everything — nor even about that one particular view. — This is not one I happen to agree with, but it strikes me as perfectly tenable, and not to be dismissed out of hand just because someone in the BNP happens to agree with it. You will have to find a better argument than that if you intend to shoot it down, Guest.

(Slight drift - but perhaps valid as an example of what I mean — even Hitler once said something which I regard as the most perfect summation of a view with which I strongly concur, when he said that "Cigarettes are the red man's revenge on the white man for gin." The fact that I would probably not agree with a single other opinion he ever expressed doesn't invalidate my agreement with [& incidental admiration for the brilliant expression of] that particular one.)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST,Jane Mellor
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

I am 19 years of age. I think Lizzie watches too much television. A lot of people who get drunk in towns are over 30. It is really hard to get served in supermarkets and even with ID some pubs won't serve you.

She doesn't know what she is talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

Well I just drove past a pub in my own town at 3:30pm today and saw this bloke of at least 50+, stagger out of the pub and then have great difficulty keeping within the boundaries of the wall and the kerb. He was rat arsed. What an example to set young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Something else just struck me when I saw the list of threads. The Watneys Party 7 was a product of our youth. It had one sole purpose as far as anyone who was 16 and going to a party in 1969 will tell you. To get you pissed without the hastle of having to open seven separate pint cans. I could never manage the full 7 but there were plenty who did. One of which could even drink. one handed, directly from said receptacle! They have no such equivalent today I am glad to say:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Ah, yes - the 'Old Ways'. I can only conjecture why Lizzie Cornish 1 did not qualify 'Old Ways' with 'good'.

When I was at secondary school - 1956 - 1961 - there was no chance of being eddimacated. The "teachers" were too busy battering ten bells of shite out of us with cane, pressure tubing, size 14 gym slipper and the tawse.

I had my first dose of the tawse at six years old.

Is the foregoing one of the 'Old Ways' Lizzie would like to see the return of ?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM

Lizzie, much of what you write implies that the majority of people in this country are stupid, unthinking and incapable of making up their own minds. In fact, that anyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot or a dupe who is constantly and unthinkingly manipulated by politicians, teachers, the media or some other sinister force who is in control of our lives. This is not only obviously untrue, it is grossly insulting, demeaning and belittling to the vast majority of people in this country who are perfectly capable of ordering and controlling their lives and adapting to circumstances as they arise.

In your philosophy, the idea of personal freedom (except for you and those who agree with you) doesn't exist. This is the philosophy of totalitarianism.

Most people do not walk around in a state of despair and disillusionment – they get on with their lives and live them, as far as possible, how THEY WANT TO, usually within the law. The reality is that people get pissed because THEY WANT TO. Most parents support the education system because it's what THEY WANT. Children go to out-of-school clubs because THEY WANT TO. People vote into power the politicians THEY WANT TO. People read the newspapers THEY WANT TO. People accept the opinions THEY WANT TO and reject those they don't. Disagree, by all means, but don't imply that you are the only one who has made a conscious and informed decision about what is right and don't imply that your beliefs should be imposed on everyone 'for their own good'.

Many years ago, David Ogilvy, a very successful advertising man, told his staff, "The consumer is not an idiot – she's your wife." Give people some credit - we are not the mindless morons you portray us as and most of us simply don't want to live in Lizzieworld.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:41 AM

People don't drink alcohol in pubs as they once used to, so all soft drinks, including water, have rocketed in price.

False logic yet again. Soft drinks have ALWAYS been expensive in pubs. Well, around us anyway. In 1969 when I shouldn't have really been drinking anyway a pint of bitter was 1/10 - They charged more if you had a pint of shandy because the lemonade was dearer than the beer. Shortly after, when I started to take girls in pubs, I used to dislike buying a larger and lime - because they charged for a shot of lime! And once they introduced the draught soda machines (1980's?) they knew they could charge whatever they wanted - and did! Pubs and breweries have always known that soft drinks are, if you will excuse the pun, a soft touch.

One thing I will wholeheartedly agree with is the fact that clubs are an issue - Not even necessarily the tradition image of a club. A lot of city centre pubs have become the same. They should take some responsibility for assisting people into the states they get in. Extra legislation is not the answer though, There are already laws governing the situation that are not enforced. Did you know, by the way, that drunkenness is still an arrestable offence under the 1872 licensing act? When did you last hear of it being used? And the 1964 act establishes the responsibility and authority of your local pub landlord. By law, the licensee is not permitted to serve a drunken customer, or permit them on the premises.

How will extra legislation help? Once again, political smoke and mirrors. Scapegoats for bad management and media hype. Sorry, Lizzie - they have fooled you yet again.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:33 AM

The repeated warnings from health professionals, the statistics on alcohol-related ill health and hospital treatment, and the calculations of cost to the NHS tell a very different story........As shocking, though less documented, is the two-thirds increase in cases involving pensioners.

So there is a huge increase in pensioners drinking too much.

Aren't these the ones who had the enjoyment of the life that you want to get back to Lizzie?

And you missed out apple pie. We need apple pie as well as motherhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

And...they need to reform Motherhood, making it the most important job in the world, because....it is! If you have the state rearing the next generation, then you are in big shite.

We do.
We are.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:01 AM

"In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know."

It has to do with greed, or perhaps 'survival', as so many pubs now suffer from the 'drink-driving' laws. People don't drink alcohol in pubs as they once used to, so all soft drinks, including water, have rocketed in price.   

Do I agree with the reforms?

I agree that *something* has to be done, and that has to be something DRASTIC.

I think hitting pubs is wrong, although I do agree that all landlords should be responsible and if anyone is driving, then they should ask for their keys before giving them alcohol.

The clubs are the main enemy though. They have destroyed our city centres and the lives of so many young people. They are run by leeches who couldn't give a damn about the people who fall over senseless outside their premises, neither do they care about the impact and cost of it all on the rest of us.

I think that if you deliberately choose to drink yourself senseless every night, and end up getting hurt because of that, then you should pay for any medical treatment incurred, together with police time and ambulances being called out.

I think we should go back to Off Licences and take the booze out of the supermarkets.

I think the Government should stop thinking of the revenue they'll lose if they bring in drastic measures to curb alcohol excess and start thinking about their bloody country and her people instead!

I have no time for people who drink and drive....and there should be an absolute 100% ban on ANY alcohol being in your body in you are driving. That goes for mind-bending drugs too...and they've not even touched that part....

I also think they need to start a massive campaign to change the whole drinking culture in this country, not with the daft adverts they've got at present, which actually send shivers down me, but with teaching children self-respect, teaching them to respect others, teaching them about greedy corporate bastards who want nothing but their money and couldn't give a toss how their lives end up.

And I think they need to do the biggest survey ever as to why people are drinking themselves senseless like this in the first place...then act upon it by making people's lives far less stressful.
They need to stop testing children. They need to remove the pressure on schools to 'achieve'. They need to get rid of ALL 'tick boxes' and 'targets'...they need to make Univeristy free again. They need to make housing cheaper somehow. They need to get rid of VAT completely, because we're all taxed to the hilt as it is. They need to start being bloody honest, with themselves, and with us.

In short, they need to Reform Themselves, and then Reform this country...and like a potter, they need to take what is now a lump of clay without roots, without culture, without history, and turn it into the most shining, sparkling statue that will illuminate its' beauty around the world.

I LOVE this country.
I LOVE her people...
I HATE what we have allowed to happen to it.


My dear friends, Gloria and Charlie, lost their only child, Peter, their 22 year old son, to a drunk driver, and it destroyed their lives. No-one has the right to do that to any other person, purely through alcohol...and any government that refuses to acknowledge what is happening purely because they don't want to lose the revenue, should hang its' head in absolute shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Richard, from my Myspace page...

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!" - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams

"...OUR MEDIA AND THE PEOPLE IN POWER HAVE MANIPULATED OUR ADULT POPULATION TO STOP THINKING. THEY MANIPULATE THEM TO BE A CONSUMERIST SOCIETY. 'BE INTERESTED IN A MERCEDES! BE INTERESTED IN SPORTS! BE INTERESTED IN BRITNEY SPEARS! WE WILL TAKE CARE OF THE BUSINESS!' AND THEY LEARN FROM HITLER'S FRIEND HERMANN GOERING THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE THE POPULATION FRIGHTENED YOU CAN GET THEM TO AGREE TO ALMOST ANYTHING..." - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams


....even drinking themselves senseless....

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Oh - sorry - going right back to the begining, and the thread title, do you think the proposed reforms are a good thing or not?

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:45 AM

Sorry, Liz, but it is NOT unprecedented. Just think about it - everytime the amount of alcohol abuse increases it is 'the worst ever' so it constantly happens and as the population increase it will continue to do so. The government and NHS management are simply providing the smoke and mirrors to mask the mis-management of funds.

That aside the article you refer us to makes no mention of whether this has happened before or not. Show us hard evidence that alcohol abuse is worse now than during the days of the Victorian Gin Palace and you may gain some credibility.

And alcohol has been cheaper than water since the introduction of designer waters. Not just in clubs but in ordinary pubs. In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know. Apart from it is change of tactic number 5 or 6...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:39 AM

"AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before."


Really?

You mean we've had Happy Hours before,' 'Drink as Much as You Can for as little as possible Hours', 300 clubs and pubs within ONE square mile, 30 in a 600 yard stretch in Barnsley, women so drunk, en masse, that they can be raped and not even remember it, children have their own lemonadyalcohol, exams throughout our lives, control, dictate, control, celebrity this and that, dumbing down, doctors and nurses being physically abused by drunks, security guards in hospitals to deal with this problem....etc..etc..etc.......?

Well, silly me, I just never realised.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM

AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before.

And as I patiently explained whilst the drinking was not like this when I was young there were all sorts of other things that were not like this either.

As I patiently explained this is a phenomenon in other parts of Europe too. I remember being in Portugal in 1994 or thereabouts and they were complaining about it there and at that time.

There has been a huge increase in booze sold through supermarkets. But it is virtually impossible to purchase booze in a supermarket if you look and/or are under 21. Indeed a friend who was buying a bottle for herself was accompanied by her son and they refused to sell her the alcohol on the grounds it might be for him. He is 22 but had no ID. They would not take her word for it.

Most of the people who binge drink are not young children or even teenagers - they are over 18 and mostly over 21.

There never was a golden age to go back to. Except in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:01 AM

"Elitism" lies not in enabling the able, but in devaluing those other than the elite. Subsidising the opera while doing nothing to aid (and indeed much to attack) folk music is elitist.

Aspiration is admirable (so long as the aspirer uses legitimate means) yet, for example, the underclass and their young denigrate those who speak or aspire to speak better - for example the morons who scoff at Joanna Lumley's achievements by calling her Joanna "Plumley" - simple abuse for her better speech habits.

Binge drinking relies upon those indulging (and their peers) seeing nothing wrong in two things - first the drunkenness (and lets face it we see plenty of that in folk and folk-alike music - but usually without offensive behaviour) and second the offensive behaviour.   This is part of the rejection or ignorance of standards (another example, the inability or disinclination of even the BBC to use correct English) that mars Britain.

So there is a combination of three forces for drunkenness - first the history of civilisation reveals the pleasures and addictiveness of alcohol, second the creation of an underclass of society's discards creates the need (like de Quincey) for oblivion, and third afordability.

Then there is the absence of forces against it - the acceptance both of both drunkenness and of boorish behaviour.

Letting children play truant or run riot against their teachers is in no way a proposal likely to reduce drunkenness.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM

Save the NHS from Alcohol Abuse - Article from The Guardian - 8th January 2010

You know, Dave, *you* are the one who is sounding like a politician here, because you are refusing to acknowledge the unprecendented situation that is happening here in the UK.

At present, it is cheaper to buy alcohol in some clubs than it is to buy water...and the estimated rise in numbers of people now being admitted each year to the NHS, because of alcohol abuse is 80,000.

Sorry, but never before has this happened....and it was NOT like this when we were young. To state otherwise is a downright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 03:57 AM

The media will latch on to anything untowards which is why they report on the bad behavior of the few. The NHS are struggling under the strain of lack of funding and poor management which is why the government is happy to use whatever it can as a scapegoat for their mis-management. I am not saying there is no alcohol abuse problem. There is, always has been, always will be. But the problem is no worse today than it has been and people running round like headless chickens, telling us how bad things are, are playing right into the hands of the cynical political spin doctors and their lapdogs, the press.

Out of interest, and linking to another thread close to the heart of the opening poster... One of ths reasons that Cadbury formed their company was to provide an alternative to alcohol. John Cadbury was so horrified by the gin drinking depravity of the Victorian era he decided to do something about it. Full story here. It seems, in some ways, the binge drinking of today is a return to those old fasioned values so vaunted by some:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 02:32 AM

Dave and Lizzie, stop your squabbling and stick to the topic of discussion. If Lizzie wants to use juvenile language, that's her right....I guess. But her choice of language is not the topic of this thread.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM

""But in stead "intellectual" is a term of abuse in England.""

Of course it is, and will be so until we rid ourselves of a government which relies, for its survival, on dumbing down the population so they will be thick enough to vote for it.

Why else do you suppose they are so violently opposed to what they call "Elitism", when what they are describing is the achievement of full potential by the most able.

Don T.