BS: A Change of View

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:53 AM

My friend in Sidmouth told me that one day she found the most vicious looking knife in her son's bag. It wasn't a penknife, heck, loads of lads carried those, but they were for practical purposes, not killing people. This was an evil looking thing...

He looked at her, her gentle, shy lad, told her all the boys had them, and he didn't feel safe without one, because sometimes they threatened each other. She was shocked to the core of her being. I wasn't. I just felt even sadder that so many young people are spending the majority of their young lives in schools where they feel threatened by their fellow pupils. This was Sidmouth College, not some run down, inner city school, but a beautiful looking school, with a fishpond in the front garden, koicarp swimming in it..and a feeling of 'all is well here'....but inside, it was the exact opposite for many children, not ALL, but many.

Frances Lawrence is an incredible woman, David...and one for whom I have much respect. It is so often the case in terrible tragedies that people seek to turn it around, make good come out of bad, and she's done that, and her children are now successful people in their chosen careers it seems, when they could have had a very different future. Well done to her.   

The fact still stands though that headmasters, teachers, didn't used to get murdered by pupils when we were young.


And sorry, my link above didn't go to the correct page.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:31 AM

This is not normal, Emma. It did not happen when I was young...and to accept it as normal is highly dangerous. Children did NOT carry weapons to school in my day. I am 55 years old this April, I lived through those school years, went to the worst one in my area, and it was not a place of violence.

I think this is more down to perception of knives as weapons. When I was in high school (65-73) I carried a knife most days, but it wasn't deemed to be a weapon, it was a tool to be used in various situations. I would never have considered using it as a weapon.
The fact that Lizzie never saw the knives does not mean they weren't being carried.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:48 AM

The Philip Lawrence Awards celebrating the good things young people do.

Quote from Frances Lawrence, Philip's widow - When Philip..." (there is a pause, as if it is just too hard, too direct a thing to say) "... died, I had politicians of all parties beating a path to the door." She was appalled that "Philip became the catalyst for all this negative press about young people. I found that really rather hurtful. I had four young children myself at the time." Her three daughters ranged from 19 down to 13 and her son, Lucien, was just eight years old. "I wanted to say there were young people who did wonderful things, and to try to inspire others to follow that path.

There are some people who do real work to change views.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:19 AM

April 20th 1999

Bowling For Columbine - The Film in 12 parts

"Yes, it was a typical day, in the United States of America..." Michael Moore..

We've not had it here yet, Emma, but it will happen..it's only a matter of time. That case above is not the only time that has happened.

The headmaster who was stabbed to death by one of his pupils, outside the gates of his school, as he tried to stop a fight..Philip Lawrence...

Philip Lawrence's widow speaks out about death threats


This is not normal, Emma. It did not happen when I was young...and to accept it as normal is highly dangerous. Children did NOT carry weapons to school in my day. I am 55 years old this April, I lived through those school years, went to the worst one in my area, and it was not a place of violence.

Michael Moore looks at the causes behind the Columbine High School Massacre...but he was shouted down for that by those who refuse to look deeper into how fucked up Western societies now are.

"It's ALWAYS been this way!" is one of the most dangerous views there has ever been!


Change it to "It is NEVER going to be THIS way AGAIN!" and you may just start to heal this world...

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM

What happened? Prior to Feb 7 there is no mention of violence in schools and the thread was discussing how to look at learning differences, well, differently. Then someone goes off on one about how shooting and stabbings appear to have become the norm in schools and all hell breaks loose. Why? Surely if we are looking at a change of view then people need to get to grips with why our children are viewed by some as knife-wielding, gun-toting thugs all on the verge of suicide due to pressure brought to bear by 'them', whoever 'they' are.

Another thread receives the kiss of death I'm afraid...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Although Merseyside, gun crime is reported down by 27% and nationally, firearms offences have fallen by 5%, nevertheless London figures remain high.

Joanne McCartney, Labour spokeswoman on policing on the London Assembly, said: "It is extremely concerning and what I'd like to see is some more information on the age of the young people involved"

The ease of availability of converted handguns is indeed a problem as is the fact that this makes them available to younger people

Police and community leaders in the capital say those discharging the firearms and those being shot at are young teenagers involved in "respect shootings" to settle petty disputes with little thought of the consequences although they also observe that more and more such shootings involve a gunshot to the leg, echoing the punishment attacks meted out in Northern Ireland. Detectives say that pointing a gun at the shin or knee is a deliberate tactic to avoid any chance the victim will die, risking a 30-year mandatory sentence.

However Lizzie, maybe you can provide the statistics for your shock/horror statement that youngsters are blowing each other to pieces with shotguns in schools!

In a recent BBC article about scanning school children for weapons their London correspondent points out that

"Schools are not known as hot beds of criminality. None of the reported deaths in London have taken place on school premises and the proposal is for roving arches to be placed in schools occasionally but unannounced."

Just north of Croydon at Merton Further Education College the Met Police and Merton rigged a roving arch up unannounced and monitored everyone coming into the college.
Only one person was stopped with a knife and that was not one deemed to be lethal.
As far as the authorities were concerned this vindicated their use of the arch and say it demonstrated to the student body that knife carrying was not at epidemic levels.

CONEL College in Tottenham, north London, piloted a knife arch experiment in 2006.

The Principal at CONEL College says one of the drawbacks was the perception created by local media that there must have been a problem in the first place.

He added that overcoming this negative PR impact is clearly going to be important.

It is a sad fact that the tiny minority of children who do bring knives into school often claim it is a 'defensive' measure encouraged by the kind of exaggerated headlines and scare stories designed to sell newspapers and grab attention on forums!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:37 PM

Well, I went to school.,..the worst in my area and nope, there was never ONE incident of a child or young person bringing a knife into school, Emma.   I had friends at other schools and the same thing there, nothing.

It hasn't always been like this....in schools.

Yes the mods and rockers, the skinheads, but no, not in schools...

So tell me, were they blowing each other to pieces with shotguns back in the 50s, in schools?   I don't think so...

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

Hi Emma B,

"While guidance by the Department for Children, Schools and Families lists the types of force teachers can use on children The Association of Teachers and Lecturers survey found that that new teachers are not clear on how to interpret it when faced with difficult situations when violence erupts speedily between pupils, what sort of steps they can take to try to stop the situation from escalating if they have to physically intervene, and how in fact they do that. "

Yes, that's the problem. A teacher can be faced with having to make a decision quickly, at the time, and then have their actions dissected by the courts in the calm cold light of day. A tricky and dangerous situation to be in. All we can do is our best.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM

'It never used to be this way'?

The BBC reporting back in 2008 pointed out that unfortunately,

"Knife-wielding gangs have a long history in the UK."

Doug Sharp, professor of criminal justice at Birmingham City University, was quoted as saying that knives had been a problem for many years, certainly before WW2, in cities such as Glasgow.

In the 1950s Teddy Boys, the original teen rebels, were notorious for their use of flick knives and switchblades.

Gangs of mods and rockers fighting in 1964 sparked a moral panic about British youths.

During the 1970s and 80s young 'football hooligans' engaged in running street battles and mass brawls on the terraces, often using weapons.

Professor Sharp concluded that it was hard to know if things really were worse today as news took longer to get into the public domain and tended to have different focus.

What the news actually reported about teachers and poor behaviour in the classroom was that -

"a survey of 1,001 student teachers, newly-qualified teachers and probationers in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, found 49% felt they had not had enough training to deal with challenging behaviour"

While guidance by the Department for Children, Schools and Families lists the types of force teachers can use on children The Association of Teachers and Lecturers survey found that that new teachers are not clear on how to interpret it when faced with difficult situations when violence erupts speedily between pupils, what sort of steps they can take to try to stop the situation from escalating if they have to physically intervene, and how in fact they do that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM

I agree, Lizzie. The difficulty is that there are so many causes. Schools are not generally the cause of violence, but they are the place where children spend a great deal of time , so it can happen in school.We do our best to keep our children safe, but we need the support of parents and society in general to do this - and I regret that this is quite often in short supply.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

Yes, children carrying knives...shooting each other...
It never used to be this way.

But what got to me on that news programme was all the adults discussing how teachers should be trained better, whilst not ONE person asked why teachers and children are now in constantly violent situations in the first place, what the reasons behind this are...

We so need to deal with the causes, not just the consequences, because if you heal the cause then the consequence never gets to be there in the first place..

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM

What about the child who is happily violent though?

I'm not really having a go (I've got my tongue firmly in my cheek). However, not all violent behaviour stems from a child being unhappy at school.I've had to deal with more than one incident of a teenager being extremely violent, or threatening extreme violence, and that originated outside school and was brought in. We are not always to blame for everything. I can assure you that it is terrifying to be faced by a very large teenage boy armed with a knife, who wants to "cut up" three boys because his family has fallen out with theirs.

I am not sure that there is a safe way to "restrain" someone like that - no matter what it is proposed young teachers should learn. Would anyone else attempt to restrain a violent teenager out in the street? What consequences could there be? What is minimum force? Any decision to restrain a violent child or remove them from a dangerous or disruptive situation is fraught with worry and complications. I know because I've been there.It is not a decision to be taken lightly, no matter how well trained you are.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 03:03 PM

"Why do our children think "fast" is an adverb, rather than an adjective (or noun)? Maybe that's also because of the poor example the adults are setting. "


No, it's part of the reason the kids are imploding, because they're living in a world with crap jobs, crap outlook, starting their lives with mass debts, and have no hope of ever owning a house, or even renting one....

...and meanwhile, all the bloody adults do is tell them off for getting their nouns muddled with their f'ing adjectives..!


"Immigration is way too high!"

...becomes....
"Way past time we brought the Third World into One World and shared it all around, equally."

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

"Why the fuck are our children SO unhappy that they're resorting to violence in our schools? We need to work this one out, FAST!"
And why do our children seem to swear so much? Is it because adults are unable to express themselves without adding in swear words where there is no justifiable reason?
Why do our children think "fast" is an adverb, rather than an adjective (or noun)? Maybe that's also because of the poor example the adults are setting.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

"New teachers demand training in how to handle violence in our schools"

...could become...

"Why the fuck are our children SO unhappy that they're resorting to violence in our schools? We need to work this one out, FAST!"


See....if you just alter the position from where you view the view, you really do get a very different scene in front of your eyes..

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:11 PM

Oh dear oh dear oh dear! Dear thread, I grew up in the country, schooling was secondary to getting the harvest in, or going to evensong. Despite all this, myself and a few of my chums, rose above the ghashtly socialist comprehensive system, and managed to rise above it!!
If i had gone to a private school like my father I would have risen out of the mire far more quickly!! Being brigh,t in a comprenhensive school class where the average IQ doesn't reach that of a chicken simply drags you all down!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:34 PM

I remember in grade school (60's) somebody came up with the idea of putting the "slower learners" in one class and the "excelled learners" in another. To me at the time it meant the people most likely to beat you up after school in one class and all the pretty girls in the other.

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:29 PM

Whats the difference, its still difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Don't go off on one Lizzie. Whether you agree with Paco or not is irrelevant. He thinks differently to you. Why have a go at him for it? Just because labels matter to you don't expect everyone to think the same. He is no better or worse than you. Just differently minded.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

"It really doesn't matter what terminology you use, it's what you do about the problem!
   In my day it was accepted that the slower members of the class were properly prepared for a life involving tools."


It matters a great deal, actually.

First of all, to be referred to as having a learning 'difficulty' when in reality your brain functions probably far more intelligently than those who are sticking 'stoopid' labels on you, goes deep into your psyche.

Secondly, those who you refer to as 'the slower members of the class' are the very people that you cannot live without; the builders, the plumbers, the electricians....and it's way past time that you stopped being so damned smug, considering yourself to be more intelligent than they are, and realised that they are the people who you need in dire emergencies, because YOUR brain isn't able to work out what the hell to do....even though you may be quite good at computing skills or filing papers in a cabinet..

Don't patronise people purely because their brains work and think differently to yours. You do NOT have 'the superior brain' you just have one that is more common and for way too long has belonged to a group of people who have dared to label themselves as 'normal' and everyone else as 'slow'.

It stinks.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Can anybody think of a more insultively stupid 'improved label' than "handicapable"?

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:45 PM

In England at least, I don't know about the Colonies, but twelve years of Socialist government have bowlderised our dictionary to the point where you might as well throw away any edition written before 1997. They would be considered offence to modern sensibilities.
   It really doesn't matter what terminology you use, it's what you do about the problem!
   In my day it was accepted that the slower members of the class were properly prepared for a life involving tools. In Blair's Britain it appears that everyone simply must go to University.
   The wrong approach methinks!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:24 PM

I think Lizzie makes a fair point though.

Same with "Special Needs", a particular one that I detest, as I believe we all have some special needs at various times in our life. I am not sure what else we could put in it's place but a removal of some labels would not be a bad start.

Labels help stereotyping survive

mp

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

When I was at school 30years ago there was a 'special' class known as the ESN class. This stood for 'Educationally sub normal' How very different to the life of our own dear Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM

I think a little bit of possitive discrimination can help to redress a previous imbalance at times, but the first question you mention does seem very strange. I am not sure about the second. Sounds reasonable to me but maybe I misunderstood.

One thing is certain though. Someone in the media will have already picked it up as 'PC gone mad'. Sad really.

Going back to the point of learning differences I do consider myself to be somewhat lateral in thought at times. If I ever get the chance I am going to describe myself as an anorexic lesbian. I fancy women and when I look in the mirror I see a fat person. Think it will help?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

A questionnaire provided for parts of the UK 'civil service' which looks at the proportion of workers with varied disabilities gives, as the default option, "Not disabled".
It seems strange to descrbe those who are, in the general view, able bodied by the use of a 'double negative'
A similar questionnaire on sexual orientation gives the default option (most likely response) as "Heterosexual/straight". Now I know that some in the gay community may choose to describe hetero's as straight (or straights) but to use the reverse to describe gay persons might not be considered PC!
It seems the language is being skewed in favour of supporting minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:42 AM

BTW, Lizzie - Honestly not wanting to be confrontational or contraversial but have you ever considered that when people cannot understand some of your points - As happens with me quite often - It could indicate that we have a different way of learning ourselves? I, for one, cannot get through long passionate arguments that have no structure. It is just my way. To be labeled cold, indifferent or worse because I think differently is no different to being thought of as 'a bit thick really' for the same thing. In my opinion anyway.

Maybe we ALL need to change our views - Not just 'them'?

Cheers

D

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

How did I know this would be you, Lizzie? I must be learning...:-)

I think it is already in hand. If you look up learning differences you will find dozens of references. Here's one at random. I, for one, always try to use the term 'differently abled' rather than disabled as well. Makes more sense to me anyway.

I don't tend to think in terms of 'us and them' either. I hope there is far more common ground between all people that there are differences so the gap between 'us and them', whoever we are talking about, can really be a lot smaller than you think.

Hope this helps.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:16 PM

Some people are 'a bit thick, really'.

Subject: RE: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM

Oops... BS please, Kindly Mudelf..

Thank you. x

Subject: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM

Wouldn't it be wonderful if 'Learning Difficulties' became 'Learning Differences'.

Then, it would actually mean something true.

Learing 'difficulties' implies that people are 'a bit thick really' as 'they' cannot think like 'us', but with a bit of help, they'll eventually 'pick it up'   'Us', of ccurse, being those folks who so often are convinced that everyone thinks only in one way.

Learning 'differences' however, implies that we, as a species, have finally started to understand that we all think in different ways, learn in different ways, hear, see, speak and communicate in different ways...