BS: £800 fine for low school attendance

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:53 PM

Thank you, DeG. I walked right into that one>

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

'John Taylor Gatto reveals many fascinating, and frightening, things'
and some frankly incredible IMO!

Maybe some American catter can provide the evidence that literacy amongst ALL groups in America went down in the US after the advent of compulsory schooling - until then I remain a sceptic

The view that public education contributes to rising literacy levels is shared by the majority of historians.

The ability to read did not necessarily imply the ability to write

'For example 'The 1686 church law (kyrkolagen) of the Kingdom of Sweden (which at the time included all of modern Sweden, Finland, and Estonia) enforced literacy on the population and by the end of the 18th century, the ability to read was close to 100 percent.
But as late as the 19th century, many Swedes, especially women, could not write'

According to wiki -
By the mid-18th century, the ability to read and comprehend translated scripture led to Wales having one of the highest literacy rates. This was the result of a Griffith Jones's system of circulating schools, which aimed to enable everyone to read the Bible in Welsh
Similarly, at least half the population of 18th century New England was literate, perhaps as a consequence of the Puritan belief in the importance of Bible reading.
By the time of the American Revolution, literacy (as defined above) in New England is SUGGESTED to have been around 90 percent.

The situation in England was very different; as late as 1841, 33% of all Englishmen and 44% of Englishwomen signed marriage certificates with their mark as they were unable to write; public education only became available in England in 1870, and even then on a limited basis

I think the testimonials of young illiterate children employed in the mines and 'satanic' mills alongside their parents I posted earlier in the thread speak for themselves

'Schools purposefully distort the learning process and intentionally slow down the students' learning so as to justify robbing them of 12 years of their lives'

Well again I can't speak for the US but maybe we have some educators from America in here that could verify this?

'But Gatto doesn't stop there. He also holds compulsory schooling accountable for the breakdown of the family

I noticed that! - BUT, he states, together with 55 hours of TV viewing a week
However he doesn't seem to be advocating switching off the set just closing down schools!

'Allow them to interact only with those of the same age and social class'

Well this was the opposite of my own experience of schooling where I mixed with children from very different classes from my own impoverished working class in a school of children from 11- 18 years of age.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM

If one wishes to evaluate the importance of education in American capitalism one might look at the proportion of US presidents, members of the senate, and members of the congress, who had degrees. And at how many were home (or not at all, which is much the same thing on some theses of "of look at the pretty trees and foxes" views about home education) educated and bereft of high school or college diplomas. My null hypothesis is that Gatto talks shit on this measure. And if you don't know what a null hypothesis is, then you should have gone to school.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:44 PM

From a purely academic standpoint, Gatto's 'research' is risible. He uses the classic approach of the demagogue with a point to prove; using statistics from different samples and time frames, generalising from specific studies (even when the authors have specifically stated that this should not happen)and inferring simple, linear causal relationships where many uncontrolled factors are in play. I'd expect (and get) better from one of my undergrad students.
I'm lucky, I have access to libraries and databases where I can chase down the sources of Gatto's ideas. I did so after reading his two latest books. He's about as credible as Goleman on Emotional Intelligence, i.e. not credible at all, really.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:39 PM

Yes, more people could read and write before schooling was mandatory.

Absolute, utter, and complete bullshit. The facts simply DO NOT bear this out.


If you believe Gatto's bullshit- all offered without ANY sort of proof- you'll believe anything.

One more nutter with an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:45 AM

Back to the title of the thread...

I don't see anything wrong with kids being kept off schools for educational trips or anything which will enhance their school work.

But many parents keep their kids off school for no valid educational reason. Sometimes they just can't be bothered to get them out of bed and send them to school.

I think there is a need to differentiate.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

I never wanted to get out of bed to go to school. I WANTED to get up as early as possible on Saturdays and Sundays, though, because...there was NO school.

Depends on the children, I guess.




'But Gatto doesn't stop there. He also holds compulsory schooling accountable for the breakdown of the family

I noticed that! - BUT, he states, together with 55 hours of TV viewing a week
However he doesn't seem to be advocating switching off the set just closing down schools!<<<<


Schooling, and the terrible pressures of exams ARE, imo, responsible for many breakdowns in family life. My own friend, who has 2 children, one taking A Levels, one taking GCSEs, is at her wit's end at the moment. Her children are both so terribly stressed out, her daughter (the older one) in particular, has been almost suicidal at times, not wanting to go on with life, with learning, 'if this is all there is'....

Her mother is very intelligent, loves learning, loves life, has always loved schools and indeed, frowned upon me for taking my own children out of the Schooling Stres Cesspit...She now understands, COMPLETELY why I did it. It has taken her marriage to the brink, where at present, it's still teetering on the edge, because the house is one huge cave of anxiety and resentment, instead of a warm, fun, loving, stress free home.

They don't watch 55 hours of TV, by the way.   And I've never read EVERY single word of John Taylor Gatto, but I'm sure he has something to say about switching off TV.

Good to see that a few of you are starting to read his words....

Ponder on this though...

John Taylor Gatto is 'one of your own'....an award winning teacher from New York State who is turning the wholel concept of education, and what it actually does, on its head..

Of course, there are many teachers 'out there' who may be shitscared of reading his thoughts, because their jobs are in the very institution he is blaming for so much harm being done to so many children, and to society in general...

Hardly surprising that some teachers loathe every word he says, for he is seen as a big threat to their careers, I'd imagine.




'Allow them to interact only with those of the same age and social class'

Well this was the opposite of my own experience of schooling where I mixed with children from very different classes from my own impoverished working class in a school of children from 11- 18 years of age.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM

"..However he doesn't seem to be advocating switching off the set just closing down schools!.."<<<<



OOH! :0)

"In 1997, he was given the Alexis de Tocqueville Award for his contributions to the cause of liberty, and was named to the Board of Advisors of the National TV-Turnoff Week."

Taken from here:


>>'Allow them to interact only with those of the same age and social class'

Well this was the opposite of my own experience of schooling where I mixed with children from very different classes from my own impoverished working class in a school of children from 11- 18 years of age. <<


You obvsiously went to a very progressive school then, because both my schools kept us in our age groups all the time. We simply did NOT mix with older or younger children, or any adults save those few who were in the classroom, and they were teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:43 AM

And of course, if you'd like to help John make his film about the Education System, then you can contribute here..

The Fourth Purpose - John Taylor Gatto's new film (still in the making)


:0)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:56 AM

Sorry, that links to a dead website.

I'll start a new thread with a link to John's film 'The Fourth Way'

Subject: BS: John Taylor Gatto's - 'The Fourth Way'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:02 AM

Brilliant new documentary in the making...

The Promo film for -The Fourth Purpose


John Taylor Gatto


One video of many:
John - Youtube - State Controlled Consciousness

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

Ooooooh, Ralphie! You have been and gone and done it now;-)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:38 AM

The Fourth PURPOSE
The Fourth PURPOSE
The Fourth PURPOSE

Arrrrghhhhhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:49 AM

Serious researchers don't generally make 'promo films'. Unless they're just trying to make a fast buck, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:47 AM

[Gatto]is turning the wholel concept of education, and what it actually does, on its head...

Of course he is - by turning facts and common sense on their heads as well.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

For an interesting view of responsible parenting in the UK. Can I reccomend the Jeremy Kyle show on ITV 1, every weekday morning.
Haven't aeen any teachers on there though.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:52 PM

No Ralphie we're all at work sorting out the products of the Kylees :)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:13 AM

May I reccomend this for an alternative view on education and creativity Sir Ken Robinson

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

I'm not a teacher but I'm fairly sure that, while some nice, sensitive children would benefit from being taught at home, the majority would just be thrown out of their homes by their parents for the day and wander around the streets in packs. They do that now on the estate where I live in school holidays.

Statistics have proved that about 90% of children would rather go to school. They're not so bothered about getting an education but what they do want to do is socialise with their friends.

MInd you, either Mark Twain or Disraeli or someone else once said that there are 3 sorts of lies - "Lies, damn lies and statistics".