BS: £800 fine for low school attendance

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:13 AM

MikeL2: no one is suggesting that schools are perfect; far from it, in fact. But what people find baffling is how yanking kids out of formal education and letting them run feral, to pick up whatever haphazard morsels of learning they might discover through searching the net (cause we all know how reliable so much of the information on the Internet is) constitutes a reasonable way of increasing the literacy, numeracy and other basic skills of young people. A structured, monitored home schooling environment is one thing; depriving kids of an education in some wifty-wafty, misguided notion of free learning is quite another. And it ain't going to make them more employable. This Luddite idea that kids never needed literacy or numeracy to be thatchers or builders or whatever is all very well, but we live in the 21st century. My mechanic yesterday checked what was wrong with my car, then went straight to his suppliers' handbook to find the parts, then on-line to order them through the firm's automated ordering system. My friends who are sheep farmers have a computer programe rhat allows them to monitor what goes on, predicts their yeilds and does financial projections, and let's them do their own accounts. They also have to fill in loads of government applications for grant schemes and the like. The horny-handed sons of the soil have come a long way. And the skills they need have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

Sorry Mike but headlines like 'School leavers cannot read and write' are both misleading and unhelpful in situations like this. I think I would realy like to see the facts behind that statement before commenting on it. The statement about grade c in maths and english etc. can be interpreted in so many ways I am not even sure what it signifies and finaly I would be a little reluctant to trust any survey commisioned by Tesco! Once more - don't ask a shopkeeper if you want to know about education:-)

I was aware of the OFSTED report, which Lizzie does not believe in any case. One thing that most reporters failed to mention ws that the incidence of schools in the 'lowest class' increased because many of the schools in the highest class were excluded during this inspection. Even with the skewed figures, one school in ten being in the 'lowest class' hardly amounts to the majority of schools or teachers being bad. If they bring the higher achieving schools back into the survey next time you will see a big performance increase.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM

Thanks Richard - Always happy to be corrected by someone who knows what they are talking about:-) I shall file that information away mentaly, forget it, dig it out in 2 years time and misquote it...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:39 AM

Ruth is (as usual) right, but trust me DeG I have during my last about 10 years lecturing come across far too many who have gained admission to higher or further education who for practical purposes cannot read write add subtract think or use language grammatically.

In most cases this is not because of poor teaching but of excessive class sizes and pressures not to compel children to work - the creation of hiding places and excuses for the feckless by the wifty-wafty.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:03 AM

come across far too many who have gained admission to higher or further education who for practical purposes cannot read write add subtract think or use language grammatically.

I am sure that is perfectly true, Richard. But does it equate to the 'School leavers cannot read and write' quoted in the survey? It is the use of these soundbites that politicians and the media so love that causes half these arguments in the first place.

One thing that I think everyone on here is in agreement with is that class sizes are too large in a lot of cases. This is not, as you point out, the fault of poor teaching. Quite the opposite. That teachers can continue to perform so well in such difficult circumstances amazes me.

The major bone of centention seems to be what you call 'the creation of hiding places and excuses for the feckless by the wifty-wafty. ' Very eloquent. Is that the legal term? :-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:14 AM

I think you'll find some USAian used it to describe democracy, or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:15 AM

PS, is "centention" arguing something a hundred times? This could be a useful word on here.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:21 AM

hi David

My post was tongue in cheek....I know ,especially in this time before the run up to the election many things are being slung around and hyped up or damped down to suit the need.

However I would like to say that Tesco in this instance was not trying to teach people anything. They were stating that as employers the school system, as far as they are concerned is not producing enough employable people.

As for class sizes, both myself and my son and everybody round us came through the systems that applied at those times and the class sizes were certainly larger than they are today. We did well enough and we were by no means top performers.

So something has changed!!!!

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:13 AM

Hi ruth

I agree with everything you say. I am certainly not a believer in home education but I think it can succeed in a very small number of special cases.

I agree with your excellent point about homing the needs of employers and commerce and industry into the education of our future working force.

regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM

Thanks Mike - I wondered when I saw the Tesco name if it was too serious. Funnily enough a couple of us were discussing Tesco a few days back and the conclusion we came to was that their staff, although generaly very good and helpful, contained what seems to be a high proportion of people who should not be let loose on the public! Maybe their HR people are the ones at fault after all!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

I think that the supermarket demands for what they call "tidy" dress are unnecessary and oppressive, but they are nothing to do with the irresponsibility of encouraging the stupid to bunk off school because they can't be arsed.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM

Well, the BBC's timing is something else, lol.

It would have helped if the 3 politicians had spoken one at a time and not altogether; I think I missed a few points!

There were two things that this programme highlighted for me:

Our teachers today were described as extraordinary and that was supported by the quality of the teachers who were there. I think we can safely say that most teachers do NOT abuse children.

I said in a previous post that I had reservations about teaching to exams. I have worked in a school where that was the case and to be quite honest I felt that too much time was spent preparing pupils for SATs - it can narrow the teaching; it does of course help in league tables. That is something that needs addressing by government.

I have to comment on this idea that if you do not get a grade 'C' or above at GCSE then you are a failure. I have a lot of experience teaching children with low ability. No matter how high the quality of teaching some children will never achieve a grade 'C' in some subjects but that does not mean that they are failures. I have witnessed the distress caused to some children when they get their grades and those grades are not what everybody else would like them to be.

I have taken the following:

Lucy Neville-Rolfe, a £1million-ayear director of the supermarket giant, told a skills conference that many have basic literacy and numeracy fail-ings as well as an "attitude problem" and "don't seem to understand the importance of a tidy appearance and time-keeping".

She went on to criticise a 'complicated' education system for distracting teachers from their main duties in the classroom, saying: "I would guess that the paperwork mountain with which teachers have to struggle is even worse than the red tape we face in business." from here:

"attitude problem" and "don't seem to understand the importance of a tidy appearance and time-keeping" is often down to parenting and of course a lot of children these days keep being reminded by their parents about their rights. It's a shame that some of those same parents are very quick to disregard the right to an education when they are taking their child on a holiday during term time.

The paperwork mountain is something that should have been addressed years ago but appears to get worse not better!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:49 AM

I have witnessed the distress caused to some children when they get their grades and those grades are not what everybody else would like them to be.

I should also have pointed out there that even though those grades may not be what other people would like them to be, for that child they may be a major achievement and that should be acknowledged.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM

"A structured, monitored home schooling environment is one thing; depriving kids of an education in some wifty-wafty, misguided notion of free learning is quite another. And it ain't going to make them more employable."



What is this *obsession* with *monitoring* every single thing in life...testing, examining, workloads, achievements!

My daughter was school educated to the age of 15. She imploded during her GCSEs due to bullying, by pupils and teachers alike and because of the vast workload and constant testing that went on in her life.

She is now 23. She has two jobs at present, and has had others in the past. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HER EMPLOYERS HAVE WANTED TO KEEP HER ON, HAVE OFFERED HER A JOB WHENEVER SHE WANTS IT, IF THEY ARE ABLE TO PROVIDE ONE AT THAT TIME.

SHE HAS NO GCSE'S, NO A LEVELS (HER CHOICE)

She is studying for an Open University Degree.

She has paid for her own driving lessons, bought her own car.


WHICH PART OF THIS DO SO MANY OF YOU **refuse** TO UNDERSTAND????


Her employers didn't give a toss about the lack of school examinations! Why? Because in front of them stood a wonderful person, intelligent, erudite, well-spoken, confident, hard-working, trustworthy, interesting and very literate!

SHE DID NOT NEED ANY EXAMS TO GET INTO COLLEGE EITHER, HAD SHE CHOSEN TO GO, (SHE CHOSE NOT TO) BWCAUSE EXETER COLLEGE RECOGNISES THAT SO MANY HOME SCHOOLED CHILDREN ARE BLOODY MARVELLOUS AND **WANT** TO LEARN.


Thank you. And yes, I put that capitals on so that you could read it all more clearly, as perhaps some of you are struggling to read small print.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:56 AM

STOP trying to get ALL children to be monitored!

Let go of being Proles, for just a short time in your lives, and think outside the box, go outside the herd...and stop doing what your government tells you!

Children have a right to an education. Yes.
Children also have a right to a childhood, where they are not constantly ground down by having to achieve 24/7.

Let them LIVE!!!

Shove your homework up your arse, because ANY teacher who has to give out homework is NOT doing their job properly!

Leave our kids alone.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:00 AM

The trouble is that not all parents think like that Lizzie. A lot of parents complain if homework is not set! It's difficult trying to please everybody!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:23 AM

Maybe I can try the same tack, Lizzie.

NO ONE IS DOUBTING THAT YOUR CHILDREN HAVE THRIVED ON THIS METHOD OF TEACHING.

FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE SENDING THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO

NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT SCHOOLS ARE PERFECT

TO SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN INTO STANDARD EDUCTAION ARE DEPRIVING THEIR CHILDREN OF A CHILDHOOD, THAT THEY ARE DOING SO OUT OF SOME HERD INSTINCT AND THAT YOUR CHILDREN ARE HAVE FARED BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSES IS HUGELY INSULTING TO EVERYONE THAT HAS CHOSEN THAT ROUTE.

Does using uppercase make it any clearer? One final point -

Leave our kids alone.

YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME. NO THAT DOES NOT MEAN I WANT GOVERNMENTAL CONTROL FOR MY KIDS. IT MEANS I DO NOT WANT LIZZIE CONTROL.

Understand?

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM

"Shove your homework up your arse, because ANY teacher who has to give out homework is NOT doing their job properly!"

Bullpucky.

What you're saying is that kids shouldn't have to learn to work on their own. No book reports, no term papers? All learning should take place in the school room from 8 to 3? Kids taught like that will never be employable.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

My daughter was school educated to the age of 15. She imploded during her GCSEs due to bullying, by pupils and teachers alike and because of the vast workload and constant testing that went on in her life.

Make up your mind! If she was home educated until 15 when did all this so called bullying take place??

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

Mrs D, Lizzie's daughter left school for home education at 15.


Wesley: they also won't understand the difference between superficial, sound-bite trivia (of the type you get very commonly on the internet, for example) and in-depth knowledge and research (which you only gain from a variety of sources and from exploring a topic more deeply).

Often, what can be achieved in an hour's lesson in the classroom (less by the time you factor in arrival, registers, and putting-away time at the end of the lesson) alongside 30 other people works in tandem with more in-depth study that takes place over time, at home, through reading books and completing longer-term projects. The classroom teaching leads and supports the in-depth learning.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

Y'know I'm seeing a physical therapist for my back pain. Why can't she fix me in the two 30 minute sessions I see her in every week? No - For some reason she wants me to do other exersizes ON MY OWN TIME!!!!

Pretty cheeky of her if you ask me.....

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:33 PM

A lot of schools have a homework policy and the teacher would be regarded as not doing their job if they didn't follow that policy and set homework. I'm sure there are plenty of teachers who would be delighted not to have to mark homework!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM

Throw the policies away.   :0)


It's simply not necessary for children to do homework.


And Dave, when I said 'Leave our kids alone" I meant home educated ones. I've no problems with children who go to school and love it.
But do NOT force all children to go to school or to abide by the Bloody Curriculum.


So, no-one's answered me yet...

IF schools are doing this wonderful job, why is the country so dumbed down? Why are employers always complaining that kids can't do this, can't do that..? Why are so many kids at University who er...aren't really bright enough to be there? Why has a degree now become almost meaningless, as in 'everybody's got one of those'?

Home Educated children are actually seen as different, in a very positive way, because they're outside The System and more often than not, think for themselves, think differently, don't run with the pack mentality.

Just another way of looking at things.......

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...

I feel I've suddenly started living inside HELLO magazine! It was spooky and depressing, because I remember those children when they were little..and they were very different back then..but then, that was before they were sent inside The System for near on 13 years.....

..,..then, when they came out...............

"There's a pink one, and a blue one and a green one and a yellow one....and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."


And still the Little Hitlers yelled....

"More Rules!"
"More Regulations!"
"More Checks!"
"More TESTS!"
"More EXAMS!"
"NO Home Education!"
"Stamp them all the same!"

..."there's a pink one and a blue one..and..........

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

WATCH THIS....You Might Learn Something!!

The Purpose and Origins of Public Education - John Taylor Gatto - Youtube


I'll be asking questions later...because this man is hugely important...and I'm stunned that NONE of you have even mentioned John Taylor Gatto, because he is a teacher of THIRTY years...an award winning New York teacher who has changed the way so many of us are now thinking...and who has blown the whistle on State Education......

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM

This is your Homework for tonight, children.

I want a 3,000 word essay on it by next Thursday afternoon. This will give you all time to order it, read it and write about it, in the way that I demand.

If you do NOT do your Homework, then I will give you detention, because you all have to learn that what *I* say is law. There are no excuses for disobedience, because you have to understand, that you are here only to obey...*me*...

So come along, stop talking in the back there, Dave. Order this and order your homework in a neat and tidy manner, in the way you have been taught.

'Weapons of Mass Instruction - John Taylor Gatto

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:05 PM

And I need to tell you this, children...

I know that you little beggars love to go to the internet to copy and paste your homework...but I'm one step ahead of you here. So, if ANY of you DARE to bring me in this, next Thursday.....

This book focuses on mechanisms of familiar schooling that cripple imagination, discourage critical thinking, and create a false view of learning as a by-product of rote-memorisation drills. Gatto's earlier book, "Dumbing Us Down", put that now-famous expression of the title into common use worldwide. This book promises to add another chilling metaphor to the brief against schooling. Here is a demonstration that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Fichte, Darwin, Wundt, and others, which contend the term 'education' is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable. Realising that goal demands that the young be conditioned to rely upon experts, remain divided from natural alliances, and accept disconnections from the experiences that create self-reliance and independence. Escaping this trap requires a different way of growing up, one Gatto calls 'open source learning'. In chapters such as 'A Letter to Kristina, my Granddaughter'; 'Fat Stanley'; and, 'Walkabout: London', this different reality is illustrated.


....you'll get a Dastardly Double Detention for C&P-ing from here:

Weapons of Mass Instruction - Amazon uk

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM

So, no-one's answered me yet...

Phew, Lizzie! Quite rightly so I expect. My children are now all grown up so I can be objective about kids in and just out of school. Looking at what you have just said though, if I had kids at school or just out, I would absolutely furious and incapable of answering with any modicum of retraint.

You say - IF schools are doing this wonderful job, why is the country so dumbed down? Why are employers always complaining that kids can't do this, can't do that..? Why are so many kids at University who er...aren't really bright enough to be there? Why has a degree now become almost meaningless, as in 'everybody's got one of those'?

What other way do we have of reading this apart from young people currently coming out of education, including higher education are not particularly bright. Please note that you have not qualified that with 'some' children or 'in my opinion'. You have just alienated evry single parent in the UK who sends their children to school. Can you not see that? Can you not see why people shout at you? Anyhow, pressing on...

Home Educated children are actually seen as different, in a very positive way, because they're outside The System and more often than not, think for themselves, think differently, don't run with the pack mentality.

Home educated children are better than school educated ones. Including yours I suppose. School educated ones cannot think for themselves and just 'run with the pack'. Not only have you put in the knife. You are now twisting it.

Just another way of looking at things.......

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...

I feel I've suddenly started living inside HELLO magazine! It was spooky and depressing, because I remember those children when they were little..and they were very different back then..but then, that was before they were sent inside The System for near on 13 years.....

..,..then, when they came out...............

"There's a pink one, and a blue one and a green one and a yellow one....and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."

The kids your daughter went to school with are off the rails. Note - Not some kids - just 'the kids'. They are 'all interchangeable'. They are all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same. It reads like every single kid out of the standard schooling system is to be tarred by your brush. Not only have you twisted the knife. You are now chopping up the livers.

And don't tell me that I am reading the wrong message from your words. It is plain for all to see. Children educated in schools = bad. Children educated at home = good. Never mind that you have previously said schools are good for some kids. This is NOT how this latest tirade reads.

It has been mentioned before that your posts do lean towards the outrageous. This one absolutley takes the biscuit but I will say one thing. If what you wanted was to keep me away from your postings you are well on the way. I am now not just worried, but but positively afraid. And not in a good way.

If you cannot see how offensive your post is toward a HUGE number of decent parents with decent kids in state education then I am afraid there is absolutely no hope of reasoning with you.


Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM

How about doing the arithmetic of success and failure?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:43 PM

Home Educated children may actually be seen as different by some, but unfortunately it isn't always in a very positive way.

Lizzie, you must realise that what has worked for your children won't necessarily work for every child. You must realise that the descriptions you give of school educated children are sweeping generalisations which for most children are incorrect and unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:46 PM

I think this thread should have a warning:

Do not open this thread if you are a teacher, a school educated child or the parent of a school educated child UNLESS you have absolutely no feelings at all.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:04 AM

"It's simply not necessary for children to do homework."

No, it's not but it reinforces classroom work and encourages children to read beyond the work done at school. Thinking back, there's a lot I know that I didn't learn at school but did learn as a result of school. My parents were intelligent and hard-working but they wouldn't have had the knowledge or backgound to be able to stretch my my mind in the way my teachers could.

Are you sure that this country is any more dumbed down that it ever was or do you just read about it more? We have a cult of celebrity at the moment and stupid people are all over the media but I don't think that means there are fewer knowledgable people, just that we don't hear so much about them. Another thing to bear in mind is that what you were taught in school is no longer so relevant - do we need to know about the classics and fine art to get on in the world? No, we don't. It's nice to know but not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

Eanjay advises people who are school educated not to read much of this thread if they are school educated and have any feelings

Gatto describes those of us who have been through state education -

"The products of schooling are, as I've said, irrelevant.
Well-schooled people are irrelevant.
They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves"

well thank you!

Dan Meyer, a teacher with the San Lorenzo Valley Unified School District, was honoured with a 2008 Cable's Leaders in Learning Award

He expresses a similar reaction to eanjay

'Try not to contract an acute case of self-loathing reading John Taylor Gatto's Why Schools Don't Educate, a speech in which we are all agents of a system which subjugates students emotionally, physically, and intellectually.'


Gatto's theories and political ideology are firmly based in American 'libertarianism'

This is supported by fellow libertarian ideologues like Neal Boortz, whose radio show is popular with conservative republicans and who routinely criticizes the homeless, public schools (which he calls 'government schools'), liberals, opponents of the Iraq war, teachers and welfare recipients …..
and has stated

"sending a child to a government school is tantamount to child abuse"

After reading Joe's informative post it's obvious that, in America, like the UK, there is room for education reform

The difference appears to be that in America the mantle of school reform has been appropriated by those from the libertarian brigade who oppose the whole idea of public schooling.

"Their aim is to paint themselves as bold challengers to the current system and to claim that defenders of public education lack the vision or courage to endorse meaningful change."

- Alfie Kohn an American author and teacher/lecturer who is actually a proponent of a constructivist account of learning and opposed to standardized tests etc

Kohn is also unimpressed by Gatto

" In a recent Harper's magazine essay entitled "Against School," he (Gatto) asserts that the goal of "mandatory public education in this country" is "a population deliberately dumbed down," with children turned "into servants."

In support of this sweeping charge, Gatto names some important men who managed to become well-educated without setting foot in a classroom.
(However, he fails to name any defenders of public education who have ever claimed that it's impossible for people to learn outside of school or to prosper without a degree.)

He also cites a few "school as factory" comments from long-dead policymakers, and observes that many of our educational practices originated in Prussia.
Here he's right. Our school system is indeed rooted in efforts to control. But the same indictment could be leveled, with equal justification, at other institutions. The history of newspapers, for example, and the intent of many powerful people associated with them, has much to do with manufacturing consent, marginalizing dissent, and distracting readers. But is that an argument for no newspapers or better newspapers?

Ideally, public schools can enrich lives, nourish curiosity, introduce students to new ways of formulating questions and finding answers.

Their existence also has the power to strengthen a democratic society, in part by extending those benefits to vast numbers of people who didn't fare nearly as well before the great experiment of free public education began"

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:36 AM

Home tutoring is just another name for good parenting.
My schooling back in 50s'60's and early 70's, was by and large great. (apart from one sadistic maths teacher...Steel ruler edge on across the knuckles anyone?!).
Couple that with wonderful parents, who were strict, but fair, I got a proper education.
But without the school part, I would never have learnt how to play French Horn, Tympani (Played in the London Schools Symphony Orchestra for one season). I would never have found out what goes on behind the scenes in a theatrical production. And, as I was pretty much a failure academically, (6 O levels No A levels), I still managed to impress the BBC enough to get a decent job/career. I was later told that it was the activities I had been engaged in at school was the factor that swayed it in my favour.
And Home parenting alone can open up all these possibly life changing opportunities? I dont think so.
I wasn't particulary sporty, but for those that enjoyed that, the facilities were available.
Don't blame the teachers Lizzie. They are making the best of what they've got.
But, also, how can you even begin to think that H.E. will solve all the problems?
For instance, If one of your children wanted to learn to play the piano? Do you have a piano? Do you play the piano? Think not.
You would have to resort to private tuition. Most schools have a music dept (just). For free!
But enough. I realise that I'm just wasting time, and await the inevitable backlash with bemused resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

"Their aim is to paint themselves as bold challengers to the current system and to claim that defenders of public education lack the vision or courage to endorse meaningful change."

I cannot, for the life of me, think who that sounds like. I do not blame anyone for taking that attitude though. It is the easy one to take. People disagree with your ideas therefore they must be the product of a represive system, following the herd, boring or just plain stupid. It is much easier to believe that than to accept that your ideas may not be as good as you thought.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Derecq
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...
=====================================================================
Actually a lot of Facebook pictures are like that. It's the sort of pictures people of that age take. They don't take pictures of themselves doing their homework sitting quietly at home or studying, or helping old ladies to put up bath handles.

People might ask WHY you were looking at photographs of people your daughter went to school with for 30 minutes..........Looking to see if they posted pictures of themselves drinking and partying by any chance? Personally I think a responsible adult would tell them to make sure their pictures can't be seen by every Tom, Dick and Harriet.

Anyway I note from earlier posts - far from being home educated as you have constantly told us - your daughter spent all but one of her compulsory school years in school. I have to tell you that is not the normal definition of home education.

Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM

The two sons of a friend of mine went to a Steiner school. (A very liberal take on how children should be treated)
I went along to a couple of Open days, Christmas fairs etc. All very nice. They had an organic veggie farm, a few animals hanging about. (Nowt wrong with that, obviously). Sadly, idyllic though it looked. The kids, bye and large, were taking the piss, and running amok.
I'm sorry, Lifelong socialist I may be, but children need boundaries, set, both by parents and teachers.
Wifty wafty Hello Flowers, hello trees attitudes do not work.
The very fact that children have to be at school at a certain time, wearing the correct uniform etc. is a good thing!.
Of course I'm not advocating regular beatings. (although I went through that regime too). but "loving" dicipline for children has to be the way forward in terms of parenting.
We, as a family, try to share a communal meal around the table at least 3 or 4 times a week.
Last Sunday, the youngest (12) was out playing with his mates. I was doing a roast dinner. He wanted to stay out. No, I told him. this is family time. you will be back at 5, or your dinner is going in the bin. Harsh? Maybe?....but, he turned up at 5 to 5!!!
Enough already.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM

Oh and another advantage of schooling? Your child gets to mix with other kids. In these days when it's not so easy for them to play in the street this is very important. I've known a couple of home educators who've realised this lack and have made sure their children have mixed with others by taking them to play groups etc but I don't think it will beat the experience of learning together and hearing other children's views on a subject. In addition to controlling your child's education you now have to control their social life (or is it have control of their social life?).

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:25 AM

Another advantage of a school system is that it reduces the risk of children being indoctrinated by insane parents.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Davetnova
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/intelligence%11boosting-drugs-make-children-question-point-of-exams-201003102547/

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:56 AM

That is VERY funny Davetnova:-D

I am a bit worried that some may take it seriously though...

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:57 AM

"Anyway I note from earlier posts - far from being home educated as you have constantly told us - your daughter spent all but one of her compulsory school years in school. I have to tell you that is not the normal definition of home education.

Thanks for that."

I've always stated that fact, folkiedave. You're slipping.

My son was home-educated from the age of 7. Do you have a problem with that too?

I have experienced BOTH sides of the coin...and I know which suits/suited my children best. This is due to being their mother and knowing both of them far better than any teacher will ever come to know them.

My daughter came OUT of school, INTO home education because she could no longer cope with the appalling pressure of examinations, of stressed out teachers, putting their stress on to the pupils...and because of bullying, from both pupils and some teachers. She also gave up her art for two years, because her art 'teacher' told her that her work was "crap"...the exact word she used.

The damage that stupid, ignorant woman did, remains, even to this day.

NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does. But I damn well expect teachers, above all others, to ONLY show kindness, support, inspiration and guidance to children. THAT is their job, that is what they are therefore...and ANY teacher who feels it is their 'right' to belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly any child, should not be in the profession.

It is one thing to be firm. It is quite another to see yourself as being in a position of power, to look down and talk down to young people and children, merely because you have 'teacher' branded on your forehead.

Actually, I think that every single term, teachers should be tested, by their pupils. They should see what their children think of them, and why.

They may be quite surprised...for better or for worse.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM

A very bad experience indeed, Lizzie. Much like to ones I had when I decided it was time to change my daughters school. But it has not set me so much against teachers that I believe the bad ones to be in the majority, It did not make me believe for one moment that all the other children coming out the original school were drunken savages. And it certainly did noy give me the right to belittle every other parent who kept their children in that school.

Do you not think it is about time you stopped implying that everyone but you has made the wrong decision? We know that you made the right decision but the way you constantly try to justify it I wonder whether you have doubts? Why else keep harping on about how good an education your children got and how bad everyone elses is. Surely they are out of it now and it is time to let it go. Find a different hobby horse. Preferably one that does not involve rubbing people up the wrong way. You may be pleasantly surprised at how well people start to respond. Well, once they get over your excesses...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:25 AM

It isn't just teachers who should not belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

I strongly suspect that the vast majority of problems that children have at school are caused by parents.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:26 PM

"NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does. But I damn well expect teachers, above all others, to ONLY show kindness, support, inspiration and guidance to children. THAT is their job, that is what they are therefore...and ANY teacher who feels it is their 'right' to belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly any child, should not be in the profession."
Bloody good job you didn't go to school in South Shields in the fifties and early sixites then - and they were the enlightened days!!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

'NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does'

so how about.......

"The products of schooling are, as I've said, irrelevant.
Well-schooled people are irrelevant.
They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves" ?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck - PM
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

My daughter was school educated to the age of 15. She imploded during her GCSEs due to bullying, by pupils and teachers alike and because of the vast workload and constant testing that went on in her life.

Make up your mind! If she was home educated until 15 when did all this so called bullying take place??

Obviously a mental blip for which I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

"I strongly suspect that the vast majority of problems that children have at school are caused by parents."

In my experience that's substantially true, Richard. In the cases of the most damaged and neglected kids, the schools spend years trying to undo a lot of utterly piss-poor parenting. However, in the schools where the damaged and nearly feral kids are in the great majority, teachers are fighting a losing battle. And the heartbreaking thing is that they really do care, and are doing their best in the most demoralising situations.

Before we get a chorus of "Well well well well well well well well...." I am not suggesting that the tough schools nor the really damaged kids are in the majority. They do exist, and no one has ever denied this. The point is, the teachers who are trying to be part of the solution to these problems created by our society deserve our support, not our criticism and derision.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:13 PM

I got 200 - do you think I should claim 300 as well?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM

300