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Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject

Stilly River Sage 26 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM
RTim 26 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM
Arkie 26 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM
mousethief 26 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,leeneia 26 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
Little Hawk 26 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Feb 10 - 06:00 PM
katlaughing 26 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM
catspaw49 26 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM
ClaireBear 26 Feb 10 - 06:15 PM
oldhippie 26 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,Gerry 26 Feb 10 - 10:25 PM
meself 27 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM
mkebenn 27 Feb 10 - 11:18 AM
Ron Davies 27 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM
mkebenn 27 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM
Ron Davies 27 Feb 10 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM
Ron Davies 27 Feb 10 - 12:46 PM
mkebenn 27 Feb 10 - 01:06 PM
Ron Davies 27 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM
Ron Davies 27 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM
pdq 27 Feb 10 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,jeff 27 Feb 10 - 03:41 PM
Joe Offer 27 Feb 10 - 03:51 PM
Arkie 27 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 10 - 07:02 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Feb 10 - 01:50 AM
GUEST,Gerry 28 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM
EBarnacle 28 Feb 10 - 10:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 28 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 12:25 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM
pdq 28 Feb 10 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Jeff 28 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM
RWilhelm 28 Feb 10 - 03:32 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM
Ron Davies 28 Feb 10 - 03:57 PM
RWilhelm 28 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM
Little Hawk 28 Feb 10 - 04:25 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Feb 10 - 08:35 PM
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pdq 28 Feb 10 - 08:57 PM
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Subject: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

There was a story on National Public Radio's All Things Considered this evening about the possible subject of Carly Simon's hit song "You're So Vain."

A new acoustic version of the song has revealed the name "David" mentioned in the very beginning.

Story here.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: RTim
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

Who Cares?


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Arkie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM

I can't say that I care, but do consider the songs one of the all time greats. And the mystery does not hurt.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

Warren Beatty. She's admitted it on multiple talk shows.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

I rhink the great mystery is why does the chorus go:

Cows in the country! Cows in the country!

or is it:

Clouds in the coffee! Clouds in the coffee!

A baffling feature of a truly irritating song.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

Good article. It's a very witty song lyric.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:00 PM

Some of us are old enough to have been very fond of that song when it was so popular. There always seems to be someone around who fits that description, doesn't there? At least, I thought so. And the "who" is likely also to be a musical answer. :)

It's a music thread, it's about popular culture. I suggest if someone doesn't like it, they move along. No need to post to it. Save the churlish behavior for someone else, eh?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

Like mousethief, I thought she'd already named who it was, but I don't remember who and I don't really care, but I do like the song!

I loved it and YES I've known several someones it describes perfectly esp. at the time it came out!

It was I had some dreams they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee...
as in he killed her dreams, nothing but gray skies, clouds and rain (tears) at least that's the way I always thought of it.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

I'm so damn vain I always thought it was about me, Guess not huh? Oh well..........***sigh***........................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: ClaireBear
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:15 PM

I see clouds in my coffee whenever I pour in the half-and-half. I always liked that line.

And, standing up to be counted, I too have known people just like the mystery subject.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: oldhippie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

I had read she was referring to Lance Reventlow, not Warren Beatty. Unffortunately, I don't remember where it was in print.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:25 PM

It's not about me - I drove to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the Sun (10 July 1972).


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: meself
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

FWIW: there was a thread on this subject about year or ten ago.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM

David Geffen.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:18 AM

Ruth's right. Mike


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM

What I find interesting here is the echo of "Amadeus"--with Carly as Salieri. But rather than trying to kill the rival (or her reputation) this Salieri just writes a cutting song about the king.   

Certainly not practical for Salieri--and after all Salieri did have quite a good career, though he seems to have realized--if anything in the play can be believed--that Mozart was the genius he'd never be.

And the subject of the song in question was in fact Geffen--and the reason was that Carly did in fact resent the attention lavished on Joni Mitchell--all it proves is that Geffen recognized genius when he saw it.

Consider the difference in the bodies of work of the two women. Who will be immortal? Not Carly--except for this one song.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

Anticipation made a great ketchup commercial..Mike


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:23 PM

You're right, Mike. Maybe Carly has two claims to fame--this song and ketchup.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Carly Simon wrote a whole lot of excellent songs, in my opinion, and she has performed them very well too.

No, I don't rate her collected body of work as highly as I do Joni Mitchell's...but I see no reason for her to feel unconfident about her own musical work which has always been very good, certainly better than most.

You can make a ketchup commercial out of any song. From any writer. One of Dylan's songs was used for a bank commercial. One of Donovan's was used to sell some kind of spread for putting on toast. Commerciality being what it is, it's probably inevitable that a great Joni Mitchell song will someday be used to sell spam or hair spray or something... If so, it will not be any reflection on Joni Mitchell. Neither is a ketchup commercial any reflection on Carly Simon.

Carly has another claim to fame too. Her lips. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:46 PM

LH--what are your favorite songs written by Carly?


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 01:06 PM

LH, I like her also, just a smart ass, plus I still dream about that " No Secrets" alblum cover. Mike


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM

The parallel with Salieri is amazingly close.    I've sung some Salieri--and it's not bad=--workmanlike stuff--good music. But Mozart it's not.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

Also, not all of Joni's music--and, believe it or not, not all of Mozart either--is sublime, But the best is.

YMMV


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: pdq
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:14 PM

Somehow, if you were to tell Carly Simon to "bite me!" it don't sound too bad.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:41 PM

She revealed that it's about David Geffen. Speculation is that it was written in regards to her being miffed that he spent more time/money promoting Joni Mitchell, her labelmate at the time. And if that's the case one could hardly blame him given the breadth and depth of their respective works. Carly's lyrics read like a functionally neurotic college co-ed w/father issues. Shallow, vapid and dare I say vain?


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:51 PM

I dunno, Jeff. carlysimon.com says she never has revealed who "You're So Vain" is about. Where do you get your information?
A Google Searcvh fails to provide proof that satisfies me - all I see is further speculation. Take a look at this Rolling Stone article.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Arkie
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

I would not consider Carly Simon a great song writer but she did produce "You're So Vain", a good song, good lines, and a mysterious theme that is still fun to hear after forty years and some other good songs including "I Haven't Got Time for the Pain".   She is also a good singer and making good music into the 21st century. Her Christmas CD of about seven or eight years back had some memorable tracks and her CDs still get into the rotation. But I love this one and would not care if she never wrote another song.

You're so Vain


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:02 PM

I find Carly's songs mostly quite enjoyable, although not all that deep. The primary concern of the vast majority of her songs is her emotional and love life with the various lovers she's had...I would assume, quite a few of them. Yeah, she's got emotinal issues that are obvious in her songs, and she has admitted to the same in interviews. I agree that it's pretty light stuff compared to the far more meaty and universally meaningful material put out by writers like Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, and Leonard Cohen, to name three who are really outstanding. Nevertheless, I like the way Carly Simon performs her songs in any case. If that bothers you, sue me. ;-D

If I was going to pick a female singer/songwriter who is absolutely brilliant, second to none in my opinion, that would be Mary Chapin Carpenter. You cannot write songs better than she does. I would say the same of Joni Mitchell. One thing that all great songwriters have in common...they have each come up with a few masterpieces that are so unique and distinctive that you can't imagine anyone else who could ever have written them.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:50 AM

I particularly liked the children's songs that Carly and James Taylor recorded together. I think it is a special stage that entertainment couples go through--like appearing on Sesame Street when they have small kids. And they're a great pleasure to listen to and sing along with.

I like her music, and am not ranking her against all of the other performers of her day. How does Linda Ronstadt measure up to Joni and Carly and Judy Collins and Joan Baez (well, okay, Joan is a goddess, but I like them all).

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM

Carly Simon did children's songs long before she met James Taylor. She started her career doing children's songs as half of the Simon Sisters.

Carly Simon went to my high school - but she was gone some years before I arrived.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:47 AM

One of the things which Lady Hillary and I do is extra and commercial work, as well as voice overs on my part. We and those we act with have come to the understanding that the best thing you can have is something which brings in residuals.

Some of the best commercial actors work two or three times per year and bring in millions of dollars from the residuals. They have become instantly recognizable. Are they great actors? Probably not. Are they well known? Yes. Are they living well? You bet.

Same goes for anyone who has had an evergreen hit. The definition of greatness is lasting ability. Carly Simon is best known for writing from her gut in a way that the public could appreciate.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM

Good answer.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 12:25 PM

"...public could appreciate".

Carly, I suspect, is well on the way to becoming a trivia question-- (Who wrote and sang "You're So Vain?") -- for all the generations but ours--since it's fairly obvious which generation comprises the majority of Mudcat members.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Carly's work "vapid"--just as Salieri is not "vapid".   Both did write for the commercial market--and reaped the rewards during their lifetimes.



Joni, through her work, will live forever--I expect that lots of people in all generations who sing her songs will definitely want to know who wrote them, and give her credit. Also, unlike Mozart during his life, I bet she's already fairly comfortable--some of her music has also sold quite well.

She basically has it all as far as music and acclaim is concerned --if she doesn't smoke herself to death.   I think she still smokes.

Obviously it is still just speculation that "You're So Vain" was about David Geffen.   But if it was, the theory of resentment by Carly at attention given to Joni fits quite well. And as I said, the Salieri parallel also fits--up to a point, of course.

As everybody knows by now, Salieri did not in fact try to poison Mozart.   Why should he? After all, during his lifetime he was much more of a "commercial hit" than Mozart--he (Salieri) appealed to the right people. Mozart did not always try to do so--his time in Salzburg, for instance, appears to have been somewhat rocky. He and the Archbishop did not always see eye to eye--to say the least.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM

LH--you still haven't told us which are your favorite Carly Simon songs--written by her.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

Carly's certainly done well commercially--but, according to Wikipedia, which is probably reliable on this issue, Joni as well has had quite a bunch of gold and platinum records.   And probably reaped rewards also.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Temple Grandin has been a guest on Terry Gross' Fresh Air several times, and is a very smart woman who is high-functioning autistic. There is a TED talk by her making the rounds that has the introductory remark that "Einstein and Mozart and Tesla would all probably be diagnosed as autistic spectrum today." Here's the link.

His social skills (or lack of them) were highlighted in the movie but yes, the rivalry in the film between Mozart and Salieri was manufactured. Too bad, because that is the "version" people will remember.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

And of course there actually was no "commercial market" during Mozart's time.   That appears to have changed with Beethoven--when a sizable middle-class market did in fact start to arise, especially with more pianos in homes.   A fascinating examination of this in Paul Johnson, The Birth of the Modern, an excellent--and very lively-- book on the period circa 1815-1830 in all its aspects.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

You mean it's not Warren Beaty?


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

No, and not Mick Jagger either. I remember hearing interviews when she said it wasn't them.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:48 PM

"I like her music, and am not ranking her against all of the other performers of her day. How does Linda Ronstadt measure up to Joni and Carly and Judy Collins and Joan Baez..."

Perhaps one could add Emmylou Harris and Dolly Parton to that select group.

Of the seven, Linda Ronstadt is the best singer but has virtually no songwriting abiliy. Neither does Emmylou Harris.

Joan Baez and Judy Collins have some fine songs to their credit, "Diamonds and Rust" and "Sweet Sir Galadhad" by Baez are gems. Still, rather few in number.

Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon and Dolly Parton are prolific writers and would be famous for their writing skills, even if they did had never sang.

Joni is the most enigmatic of the bunch, and "Big Yellow Taxi" is simply awful poetry, even if you like the song.

Dolly Parton and Carly Simon must be taken seriously in modern music. Simon's obcession with writing only about "relationships" makes her a bit tedious, but it is a tendancy she shares with most of modern Country Music.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM

MSN.Com


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: RWilhelm
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:32 PM

This is all, of course, just hype for her new CD with a re-recording of that song. I'm sure Geffen is neither surprised nor annoyed.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM

Warren Beatty may be a bit baffled--or maybe he knows she's just trying to get a higher profile for her current product.

He says she has admitted a few years ago that he was the subject of the song.

I suspect a fair number of guys could live with the terrible burden of being the subject of the song.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM

Warren Beatty may be a bit baffled--or maybe he knows she's just trying to get a higher profile for her current product.

He says she has admitted a few years ago that he was the subject of the song.

I suspect a fair number of guys could live with the terrible burden of being the subject of the song.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:57 PM

Note to self: only hit "send" once.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: RWilhelm
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM

A related bit of trivia: Many years ago I heard that Joni Mitchel's "Free Man in Paris" was about David Geffen.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:25 PM

"Simon's obcession with writing only about "relationships" makes her a bit tedious"

Yes, I would agree with that. It is the most notable shortcoming in her considerable talent for songwriting. I like her melodies, I usually like her singing and instrumental arrangements, she's written some fine pop tunes that any card-carrying "true folkie" would no doubt turn up his nose at in utter disdain (like the one for the James Bond movie)...

On the whole, a pretty good singer and songwriter, and a prolific one, as you said.

But it would be nice if she wrote about something besides personal relationships.


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:35 PM

I hadn't thought about Dolly, but you're right, she's a talented and prolific songwriter.

Of the singers of that age and era, another one, Barbra Streisand, doesn't write very often either but did get an Oscar for "Evergreen" in her remake of A Star is Born. (They should have stopped after Judy Garland's version.)

I guess we could keep dropping a lot of names in this thread. I think the mystery is as solved as it will ever be. ;-D

SRS


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:47 PM

Man, that was one LOUSY movie. I have never seen a couple with worse onscreen chemistry than Barbra Streisand and Kris Kristofferson.

At least, I don't think so... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Music Mystery - 'You're so Vain' subject
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:57 PM

Watching Kristofferson trying to play Billy the Kid was painful to some of us too.


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