What is the future of folk music?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 03:19 PM

Jim, I think that's exactly the sort of thing that it would be nice to see more of. In Essex we have the villages of RVW's early collections to possibly work thematically with. I'm not experienced enough to try to organise such a thing, though I'd certainly be willing to help out someone that was.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM

I know I gripe a lot on this forum - it's not because I'm a crabby old git, I'm not, but out of love for the music and the sheer frustration in seeing it work so well here in Ireland and not in my native UK.
So - a modest proposal - as the man from Christchurch once wrote.
In 1973 a local piper, Willie Clancy from here in Miltown Malbay died at quite an early age. Instead of putting up a statue or a plaque and then forgetting him, a handful of locals got together and organised a school, mainly for pipers, but other instruments included.
This year, on the first Monday in July the 38th annual week-long Willie Clancy Summer School will take place; thousands of people from all over the world will converge on this one-street town to play music, to sing, to attend lectures, recitals and the giant concert on the Saturday. Over a thousand of them will attend classes in all the traditional istruments given by some of the finest musicians in Ireland. In the early days it was possible to get a seat in the handful of bars where the action took place - nowadays you have to queue up to get into town and all the bars are packed solid. The Willie Clancy Summer School not only provides a wonderful week of music and song, but has been a major influence in the upturn in the fortunes of traditional music in Ireland (and of the town - whenever we are away and tell people where we live they invariably say "Oh yes, the home of traditional Irish music") It has also inspired several dozens of similar events throughout Ireland, some dedicated to local musicians and singers (Joe Heaney, The Russell family, Joe Cooley, Mrs Crotty, Mrs Galvin....)
It strikes me that it is not beyond the bounds of possibilty to organise similar events in the UK located in the home place of say Sam Larner (Winterton), Harry Cox, (Catfield/Potter Heigham), Walter Pardon (Knapton), Charlie Wills (Ryall, Dorset), Phil Tanner, (Llangennith), George Maynard, (Copthorn), Ned Adams/Johnny Doughty (Brighton and Hastings).... dozens of them well worth honouring for their contribution to folk song. It doesn't have to be a specific singer - a Brigg Fair festival/weekend, whatever sounds good to me; something that a town or village could identify with.
It doesn't have to be ambitious, just a handful of enthusiasts for a start would do it. Involve the locals, family members if possible ( a must in my opinion), try for some local sponsorship - give it some academic cred. with a couple of talks (nothing heavy) and you might even attract some arts council money.
I wouldn't dream of speaking for them but I'm sure that some of the national figures in folk music would donate their time to getting such a project started - the people I worked with in the UK would and often did for similar causes.
The main thing, I think would be not to try to please all of the people all of the time - specialise, if possible around the singer's repertoire.
The success of The Willie Clancy Summer School has been that in spite of pressures from all sides it has never compromised - result - 38 wonderful schools and wall-to-wall music in this area throughout the year (including a huge bunch of youngsters, many of whom were taught by pupils of the early Clancy Schools) and a knock-on effect throughout Ireland.
Worth considering I wonder? The very least you could acheive is a pleasant week-end in the company of fellow enthusiasts; in my experience, most folkies are social animals and make pleasant companions - even the ones with smelly feet and halitosis.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Callitfolk
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 11:12 AM

Hi Everyone, I'm new here but I had to chime in on this thread. I have a folk music audio blog, called Call it Folk (Music). The purpose of my blog is to introduce older fans, of which I certainly am, to the younger performers, and to expose the younger singer-songwriters to the folks who have laid the way for them.

After 40 years of knowing, listening, and performing in the folk medium, I'm now discovering a world of music out there, from the "kids", that I think will carry the torch. Sure, many of them have lousy voices, they can't write topical or accessible songs, and they can't play their instrument well enough to hold the audience solo....but...there are some real gems out there, too, and they are still in their 20s. A big change already taking place, is that solo performers are using monikers,,,,so it seems as if they are a band. And so many of them get lost on the older crowd, as we are prone to identify "folk-singers" as individuals with names, and we often disregard oddly named "bands".

The best of these younger performers, somehow, are able to write and deliver very good songs, in many cases, without the knowledge of 90% of the performers who've gone before them. They've never heard of Nic Jones, Gordon Bok, Stan Rogers, or the thousand other writers and singers we are familiar with. But for these younger performers, it's intuitive, to write with a strong voice, and to make their lyrics dynamic. Sometimes, the songs come across as a blend of folk and pop, yet compelling and evocative. There are examples of younger performers using nylon strung guitars (think Laura Gibson), or acoustics that are mic'd, without the twangy soundhole pickups, etc.

The best of these performers, having gained some notoriety with there own (good) songs, go on to "discover" the music that preceeded them, and, in turn, produce more great songs. I suspect Folk Music, both trad and contemporary, will outlive us and survive in about the same form as we know it today. But of course, it will be just as underappreciated and obscure as well. If you've read this far, I apologize for the rant. I love reading these posts. You folks know from where you speak! John O'Hara

Call it Folk Blog

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 10:57 AM

Richard M: Presuming that "we" means young men, then those of us who aren't young men can't apply it to ourselves.

That was my point! The now vanished Suibhne pointed out a few times that he found he was still the 'baby' of most song sessions, despite being born in 1961. I'm suggesting gently that it ill becomes gents of mature years like me (born 1960) to lay down the law to people young enough to be our children.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

"the future of folk music hopefully will be this;
people making and singing tunes and songs for their own enjoyment,not solely for commercial gain,and on instruments that are available at very little money[the unaccompanied human voice].
this is where unaccompanied singing comes in to its own,it is truly the music of the people,it can be done by anyone [regardless of income] anywhere any time."

Nice post there GSS.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

And congratuatons on the 200 you just didn't claim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:02 AM

PS Cheers to you too Ralphie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM

"State sponsorship, as in Ireland, would be wonderful if done right, but heaven help us from the Red Army Choir approach."
Agreed absolutely Richard - but it really doesn't have to be like that.
Up to the present financial debacle performers and researchers have called the tune completely with no state interference (apart from having to be nice to the relevant minister on occasion).
We were told 18 months ago that to ask for money for legitimate projects was pushing at an open door - we pushed, the result being that we now have the groundwork for several publishing projects completed.
We are reaping the benefit of the hard work put in by Nicholas Carolan, Tom Munnelly, Paddy Glackin and all those dedicated enough to slog their way uphill while the music was still being referred to as "that diddley-di shit" by politicians and art aficionados alike.
And no Ralphie – it needs much more than to be archived and preserved. If it is to be treated as the performed art it is it needs to be more than an appendage to an unimaginative pop music industry and to be performed and seen at its best in all its manifestations. The breakthrough here was brought about by researchers, academics and performers who took the music deadly seriously while still enjoying it to the full – and they didn't go in for definition-bending in order to incorporate Daniel O'Donnell and Jedward into their terms of reference.
"I'd love to comeback in 200 years....."
Me too - hopefully they will find it as beautiful an inspiring as we did and not in too much need of 'improvement'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:56 AM

Jim.
Fair enough old fruit! (ripening gently!!)
You are obviously luckier in Eire, when it comes to funding (although with Greece going down the pan, and the Euro looking dodgy, that might change!)
We may disagree on a few points, but, I would happily raise a glass or two with you, if we ever had the chance to meet.
I think that on many subjects we agree.
The tradition, needs to be archived and preserved.
But, whatever we may think. The next generation will pick it up and run with it. There is nothing we can do about that,
We may not like it, but, that changes nothing.
I don't know how old you are (I'm 56), but in 20 years time, neither of us will be here....(OK lets hope for 30!)
Can we change the future?
Nope.
All we can do is leave our interpretations of "our" collective pasts, and cast them forward.
I'd love to comeback in 200 years (assuming that the bloody political powers haven't blown us all to bits!), and see what the musicians and singers of the future have made of all of this.
Seeing as how the internet is everlasting, and all this bollocks is still in existence, and is being read by someone in 2210.....What would they make of it all??
(Would probably think that their ancestors were mad!)

HELLO FUTURE....NOW ARE YOU DOING?
GREAT GRANDAD CALLING!!! Lol!

Have a good Sunday Jim.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

to continue,why are ukeleles now popular in schools? becuase they are relatively cheap, and fun to play,and have the potential to make intersting music.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM

the future of fok music hopefully will be this;
people making and singing tunes and songs for their own enjoyment,not solely for commercial gain,and on instruments that are available at very little money[the unaccompanied human voice].
this is where unaccompanied singing comes in to its own,it is truly the music of the people,it can be done by anyone [regardless of income] anywhere any time.
of course folk music can still be played on expensive instruments and can be used solely as a way of making money,but[imo]it will b emusic that can be sung unaccompanied ,whistled lilted etc that will survive because it is not exclusive,it can be done by anyone regardless of income.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:42 AM

Pip said
> As far as I'm concerned, the songs don't need new arrangements - the plain, spare, unadorned readings of artists like Nic Jones, June Tabor and Tony Rose are all the adornment they need (and some would say we should eschew even that level of frippery and stick to the source singers). <

I'll go along with that. I would add that some of the recordings of source singers are pretty rough in one way or another, whether or not due to their ages at the times when they were recorded, so sometimes I think I prefer some measure of polish. Anyway that's a matter of taste. As Pip, Jim and others have said, it's the songs that matter. The more people who perform them, in styles close to or not so close to the tradition, the better the chance that future generations will acquire the taste.

State sponsorship, as in Ireland, would be wonderful if done right, but heaven help us from the Red Army Choir approach.

Pip also quoted Jim Moray's
"Young men are false and we seldom do prove true".
and asked
> Anyone else want to volunteer to sing that version? <

Presuming that "we" means young men, then those of us who aren't young men can't apply it to ourselves. And those of us (if any here) who are young men probably would claim that they will prove true.

Or does it mean that the human race in general seldom do prove true? That would be too cynical for me.

Richard

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM

Ralphie
"So, I doff my cap to you,"
Thank you for your good wishes, but just a reminder that we are not archeologists or museum curators - we've all got a great deal out of singing and listening to the songs as well as collecting and archiving them - (Mike Yates plays a mean banjo and Reg Hall has been known to knock out a few notes here and there in his time).
I have no doubt that the old songs will still be sung and played more or less in the way they came into this world all those centuries ago, long after Jim M and his friends have become bored and moved on to something else, pretty much in the way Steeleye, Pentangle, Mr Fox and The Bothy Band has, (I'll be seeing Paddy Keenan play in his old breathtaking style next month, and Tommy Peoples can still knock your eye out with his old Donegal fiddle style).
Regarding the Radio Ballads, old and new, despite having enjoyed some of them and finding all of them interesting and relevant in their way, it's The Travelling People, Singing the Fishing and The Big Hewer that spring to mind whenever they come up in conversation, despite them being 'museum pieces'. The Travelling People did much to help change Travellers lives for the better, or at least to make the rest of us aware of the criminal way they are treated by us 'buffers'. From a musical point of view, the songs that passed into the general conciousness were Freeborn Man, Shoals of Herring and The Moving On Song - they almost certainly would have become 'traditional' if we'd still had a tradition for them to take root in. As much as the new Radio Ballads did a job, I can't honestly think of a song from any of them that I would want to sing or that will be around in the forseeable future - maybe you can.
I think and hope that the old songs are resiliant enough to survive, no matter what is done to them. Last year the theme of our local West Clare Traditional Singing Festival was 'Families' and some of Ireland's best Sean Nós (Old Style) singers brought their children along to perform, and we watched as a bunch of yougsters brought the house down by singing beautifully - like vererans who sounded as if they had been doing it for centuries; "the plain, spare, unadorned readings" shone through like headlights on main beam thoughout the weekend (nicely put Pip).
The UK really could learn from what has happend during the last few years over here; it's the Irish Government that has been 'throwing money' at folk music to make sure it will be preserved and still be sung and played generations from now - all done through undertanding, respect, hard work and concentration by a bunch of people who realise what our music is and what it means to the Irish people rather than what can be done with it to make it 'modern'. It was modern when it came out of the womb and remains so centuries later without needing to be 'blinged up' and dressed up in the latest fashions.
Anyway, here's to the songs - that's what we're all here for as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

In the U.S. kids are popping up all over the place. Many play bluegrass, blues and old-time.
They are not all trying to be pop stars or the next Dylan. Where I live, near Atlanta, there are some wonderful young fiddlers. Just because it's not on the radio much doesn't mean that
it's not happening. It is!

The future looks brighter and brighter as more history and materials become available.
When I was younger you really had to search for authentic folk music. Now, a lot of what we tried to find is readily available. YouTube is amazing.

I don't really know the Brit folkmusic scene but here in the States you can find it without the radio.

I need to remind the posters here that folkmusic and songs are not confined to the U.S.
or Great Britain. Sweden is finding a renaissance. Africa is. Slavic countries.

Folk music continues in spite of it's Mark Twain demise. (Greatly exaggerated).

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:31 PM

Howard said everything I wanted to say (irritatingly enough) in this comment. I think the point I'd want to stress is that things are being treated as if they're mutually exclusive, when they're actually complementary. To be more specific, I don't actually like Jim Moray's version of Lord Bateman, but I'm immeasurably grateful to him for not only recording it but doing something sonically interesting with it - because it was through his recording that I discovered that song, & it was through his interpretation* of it that I became fascinated with it. Having listened to the track repeatedly & listened to other versions of the song, I find it's the other versions that I prefer - but if it wasn't for Jim M's version I would never have had any interest in seeking out those other versions.

A couple of people have said that versions of folk songs in 'contemporary' styles will date, just as 'modern' versions from the 1960s and 1970s have dated; and other people have said that, although those versions have dated, the songs have survived. What I want to say is that that's actually *how* the songs have survived - and how they will survive. As far as I'm concerned, the songs don't need new arrangements - the plain, spare, unadorned readings of artists like Nic Jones, June Tabor and Tony Rose are all the adornment they need (and some would say we should eschew even that level of frippery and stick to the source singers). But I'm speaking (now) as someone who already loves the songs. To anyone who hasn't already acquired the taste, new arrangements are exactly what the songs need, and will continue to need. (Sweet England is the only folk CD I've dared to play in the car with my family - in that context there's something very satisfying about the bit where the beats drop in on Early One Morning...)

I also just wanted to say that Jim Moray won my eternal respect and gratitude by making one small modification to On One April Morning -

Young men are false and we seldom do prove true

Anyone else want to volunteer to sing that version?

*Textually, it has to be said, Jim M's Bateman is very orthodox - Child 53L word for word.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Whovian
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM

The future of Folk Music is countless millions of years beyond the end of time,
many star systems away at the edge of our dimensional universe.

If it turns out the most dominant Folk singers in that distant future are Daleks,
then as interesting as the prospect might be,
I don't think many of us would want to listen to an entire CD*

[* or whatever the playback medium might be.;
of course, if we all had the good luck to be The Dr's travelling companion
and were trusted to use the sonic screwdriver .....]

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM

Jom Carroll.
Thankyou...I think we are just arguing semantics here. And I certainly think that if one was to pick a year, 1830, is vastly preferable to 1954!!
Of course the work that you, and many others do is absolutely vital.
In my own way, I'm an archivist too. Not in the way that you see it, but in the audio field, as and when I can.
I'm glad that you've heard the new "Folk Ballads". For myself they have more relevance than the Parker ones, because they refer to subjects that are of the "now". When Parker/McColl did the originals, I was only 6 or 7 years old. But I certainly remember the dismembering of the shipyards, the steelworks, etc,etc.
as I've said before, You research the old, combine it with the new, and end up with the future. That's the way it is. People can rage against it, but, that's what will happen.
I, for one, trust that people in the future will, whilst on the one hand, take the music in their own direction, many of them will respect where it came from.
So, I doff my cap to you, and John Howson, Reg Hall, and many others for the work you do.
If there was any justice, then the EFDSS would get shit loads of lottery funding, and a central archive could be funded...(could even include Doc Rowes stuff too)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:16 AM

Hiya Ralphie, I've been advised by someone who knows, that I should definitely take you up on your offer. To quote: "He's an incredibly experienced and skilled sound engineer - who is a proper folk musician yet has wonderfully broad & eclectic musical taste..."
Sounds good to me! I can't log in, and I don't want to put my email up on the board in case of spam & other unwanted rubbish. So if you're genuinely happy to work with me, please get in touch with Irene. I'll let her know on my side too & remind her of my email address so she can pass it on to you. Now I'm just toddling off & won't be back on here for a while, so have a good day & hopefully chat more laters? Cheers! :-) x

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:19 AM

"dont go dissing those people who want to choose that path",Ralph Jordan.
Sorry,Ralph but you cannot shut me up,I reserve the right to say I dont like something,All perfromers have to put up with that.
I did/do not like particularly some things that you have been involved in,that doesnt alter the fact that I recognise you are a good concertina player,I do not like Peter Pears treatment of WALY WALY,however he is a good competent light opera singer,I have a right the same as any critic to air my opinion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc
I do not see that as the future of folk music either,because it has no connection stylistically with the roots of uk traditional music, neither [imo]does Jim morays inclusion of rap in lucy wan,just an opinion.
performers have to live with opinions and criticism.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

"If you don't like it, don't bloody listen to it then."
Meant to add - this in not about taste - hopefully we all listen to (or don't) whatever we like, no matter how it is defined.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:50 AM

The new radio ballads took as their inspiration the old radio ballads which, at the admittance of their makers, were revival based, which in those days, took their inspiration from the handful of remaining 'song carriers' many of which, even then, had never been involved in an active thriving folk tradition. Which makes the radio ballads - how many times rmoved from a living song tradition - I've lost count.
Got them and listened to them all with great interest - thanks all the same.
By the way, it is not my, nor MaColl's, nor your Uncle's definition - the one that's been kicking round since the 1830s, that provided us with our first contact to folk song via the revival, the one that all our research, literature and published and archived collections are based on and the one that still remains valid until it's replaced - care to have go?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM

Message to Jim Carroll.
Quote
"Apart from a tiny handful of 'custom songs' and those sung at sporting gatherings or in the schoolyard, the singing traditions of these islands are as dead as Monty Python's Norwegian Blue. They died when people stopped making songs that reflected their lives and events of their communities and passing them on to enable others to adapt them to serve the same purpose; they died when they/we sat back and let others make their/our culture for them/us, becoming passive recipients of a manufactured 'product' culture rather than relying on the innate talents we all posess."

I refer the Honourable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Jim, just go and find the John Tams hommage to MacColls original Radio Ballads.

1 The Song Of The Steel.
2 The Enemy that lies within (Hiv/Aids)
3 The Horn of the Hunter.
4 Swings and Roundabouts. (Circus life).
5 Songs Of Conflict. (Northern Ireland)
6 Shipyards.

And the new one about the the anniversary of the Miners Strike.

If you want, I'll send you them. But, don't tell me that the folk process is dead.
It's just insulting to the many fine songwriters who are providing songs for future generations.
Maybe with guitars, synthesisers whatever.
People are angry, and angry people write angry songs. every day. It'll never stop.
Long may it continue.
If you want to bury your head in the past, please, carry on.
Me? I'll hold my head up high, and embrace the music and talent that I see around me now.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM

Hi Jack Campin and Crowsister.
Also worth checking out the John Tams revisit of the Radio Ballads from a couple of years ago. (available to buy).
In one episode called "Song of Steel" (iirc), the rhythm of the song is a steam hammer in a Sheffeld foundery. Must have been an archive recording, as Thatcher closed them down years ago.
A really fine example of "Musique Concrete"
The singers and musicians on that series of programmes (6 hours plus one about the Miners strike broadcast last month). made a completely valid input to what is happening to modern day ballads.
I'll let you go and find them.
As for Mr Miles comment about "going back to your routes, and listening to traditional singers and musicians"....OK...Have done that..For many many years. Jolly good too. and I have assimilated all that I have learnt, and allied that to what I am hearing today in 2010....It's called the Folk Process.
Learn from the past and added to the present. Nowt wrong with that.
If people choose to use electronica, rap, grunge, death metal, or anything else, what is your problem? No one is dragging you in chains and sticking your head in an enourmous speaker stack, are they?
If you don't like it, don't listen to it, very simple.
But, don't go dissing those people that want to take that path. Some of it, doesn't float my boat. I admit. But having spent 30 odd years recording John Peel sessions for a living, I've learnt to remove the blinkers. Every artist who came through Maida Vale was / still is treated with the greatest respect, whether it be the Copper Family or Oasis.
I don't "Have" to absorb anything...because I do it constantly, without thinking. And then I mould my music (Whether tunes or accompaniments) as I see fit, in a way that I like.
If you don't like it, don't bloody listen to it then.

I couldn't give a damn as to whether it fitted 1954, yours, Jim Carrolls, Ewan McColls , or indeed Uncle Tom Cobbleys definition.

But, I look forward to hearing the music of more opened minded posters material. Am intrigued by Crowsister for instance. Nothing wrong with the path she wants to pursue. CS. Let me know if you want me to record you...happy too.

Out of here now. Have got an incredibly non PC Urban Molly rehearsal to go too. (Where the band wrote all the tunes, and the dancers wrote all the dances. Oooooh how dreadful, should be doing Cotswold)

And, do you know what? I'm really looking forward to it.
(BTW, our absent Patron, because he lives in Donegal, and is 93, is Packie Manus Byrne. And 25 years ago, he joined in with the band and thought we where brilliant. You can't get more traditional than that....even found the Blue Bowler hat that he made for me, and the Lagerphone too!)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:35 AM

I had no intention of putting J M's Lucy Wan to the rack and thumbscrews, or did deride it – my response was to somebody putting it up as a good piece of ballad singing which I don't believe it was.
It may be quite true that rap treatment to a story such as this could work, I don't believe it could using the existing texts of ballads because of the way they are so tightly structured that if you miss anything - even a few words, you can lose the whole ballad. Dick is not alone in needing to get out more; there are many of us who have difficulty in following the words.
Anyway, this isn't 'rap', rather it's a hybrid; it starts off with a (rather mannered IMO) unaccompanied voice, moves into a rap, then ends up with one of the most intrusive pieces of accompaniment I've heard in a while. I have great difficulty taking it seriously due to its schizophrenic structure. For me a comparison not too far from the subject matter is Oedipus Rex - far closer to Tom Lehrer than to Sophocles.
Cards on the table; after thirty odd years of fieldwork I have no doubt whatever that, apart from a tiny handful of 'custom songs' and those sung at sporting gatherings or in the schoolyard, the singing traditions of these islands are as dead as Monty Python's Norwegian Blue. They died when people stopped making songs that reflected their lives and events of their communities and passing them on to enable others to adapt them to serve the same purpose; they died when they/we sat back and let others make their/our culture for them/us, becoming passive recipients of a manufactured 'product' culture rather than relying on the innate talents we all posess.
Walter Pardon said he saw it disappearing in his area in the early thirties when his contemporaries turned their backs on the family songs and took up the latest in popular music, leaving the older members of his family to sing the old songs at Christmas parties until finally they all died. The songs would have died with them if he hadn't taken the trouble to systematically write them down and memorise the tunes on his melodeon.      
The singing traditions died here in rural Ireland in much the same way with the disappearance of the 'cuirt', the inter-neighbour house visit, usually held in the kitchen, that was the natural home of singing, dancing and storytelling.
The Travelling communities, due almost entirely to their rather isolated life-styles, were the last to lose their traditions, finally surrendering them to 'the box in the corner' in the mid-seventies.
They didn't 'evolve' into anything else; they were replaced with shop-bought culture. If they had 'evolved' they would have been re-defined, researched and documented and somebody would have been able to point to that research, re-definition and documentation, rather than rely on 'folk and tradition are what I say they are', or 'what happens at our club', or 'what the man-in-the-street says it is' (in my experience, the man-in-the-street says little on the subject, but is content to leave it to those involved).
Sure, family sing-songs still happened – and happen, and pub singing (television, piped music and pool permitting), and all the other gatherings where people socialise, and sometimes these include our old folk songs - they always have; Victorian tavern gatherings, the Vauxhall Gardens 'fringe', (even as early as actress, Mrs Knipp who sang the old Scotch ballad, Barbara Allen for Pepys) but this is very different from the vast repertoire of songs that were created and re-created by working people to articulate their lives and feelings and aspirations.
Our culture got 'Barry Bucknalled', shifted up into the attic to make room for newer, disposable stuff that we no longer had a hand in creating. It is argued, here and elsewhere that this is a good thing, that the old songs no longer have a use simply because they are 'old'. If this is true, I hope they leave enough room up there for Shakespeare, and Homer, and Dickens, and Bach…. and all the other stuff that has reached the end of its shelf-life.
For a long time the clubs saw the value, as a social resource, as a means of self-expression and as entertainment, of hanging on to the old songs, their functions and their methods of creation and re-creation, and it was great while it lasted. But, if threads like this are to be believed, that's been shifted up to the attic too, to be replaced by something that is more akin to the store bought goods – and every bit as disposable - if this is true, pity, we've abandoned a great source of self expression and creation.
I don't believe it's gone entirely; Bryan Creer keeps telling me it's still around. If you want to see it in action, I see two of the great exponents of traditional singing at its best, Kevin and Ellen Mitchell are booked at Long Eaton on 2nd May to show how good it can be when someone sets their mind to it, wish we could be there.
Now - as our OP said earlier - talk among yourselves - I'm off to clear some land drains if the good weather holds up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:27 PM

"I think sometimes that is deliberate."

Blimey!
Are we not familiar here with dialect in folk? I know I find the question of addressing dialect a challenging thing - don't know about anyone else?

Sure hope the Scot's Irish & Welsh ain't just speaking in barmy accents to make some kind of rebellious point!
Not that I could blame them mind.. ;-)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

I too have difficulty understanding what rappers are saying much of the time.

I think sometimes that is deliberate. They are addressing a restricted audience and they are not keen that a wider audience understands them.

This is not always the case, but it often is, IMO.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:16 PM

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen - PM
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

Absolutely spot on Jack

I can understand the words of the rap, Dick
You should get out more
sounds like someone telling me wahat to do.
I will decide what I do,thanks.
so would you like it, if I tell you what to do,IN ANGLO SAXON.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

From: GUEST,glueperson - PM
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM

One of the things that put me off folk, at least as youngster, was the fine pronunciation of song lyrics on the BBC radio children's service. Kathleen Ferrier singing 'I Know Where I'm Going' springs to mind or the Glasgow Orpheus Choir or any number of infant school teachers killing the English language with clarity.

I know exactly what you mean. It was a case of being over precise in pronunciation. I think it is a result of stressing the importance of "correct" enunciation of the words and singing the notes accurately which then resulted in a somewhat sterile performance. The overall result was that the meaning of the song got lost.

Clarity of the words is important but, equally important is to convey your understanding of the song as a whole.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM

Gluey: "One of the things that put me off folk, at least as youngster, was the fine pronunciation of song lyrics on the BBC radio children's service."

Lol! I remember 'Music Time' with Christopher Lilycrap (real name!) as a kid. It was appallingly bad in the worst condescending school ma'm sense. However I must confess that I myself do sing so all the words can be properly heard - possibly an inheritance from singing the odd bit of choral stuff. I also have an accent almost verging on RP.. if I'm not very drunk!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM

One of the things that put me off folk, at least as youngster, was the fine pronunciation of song lyrics on the BBC radio children's service. Kathleen Ferrier singing 'I Know Where I'm Going' springs to mind or the Glasgow Orpheus Choir or any number of infant school teachers killing the English language with clarity.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:11 PM

PS: Err, well maybe Nick Cave or even Kate Bush or something.. but definitely not your achetypical folk singer-songwriter IMO.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:06 PM

Gluey: "One of the things I enjoy about the blues is the distortion of lyrics, sometimes to the verge of incomprehension. Linguistic sense is only one way of putting across meaning."

One of the things I enjoy about traditional song is the freaking weirdness of some of the lyrics which provoke koan-like incomprehension - that in itself makes me want to go back and find out WTF was that all about? The other thing I like about it, is the fact that no-one would ever write some of these songs again. I mean, who the hell would write about screwing their sister, then slicing her up like sandwich ham before promptly fucking off after she got pregnant?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 01:57 PM

One of the things I enjoy about the blues is the distortion of lyrics, sometimes to the verge of incomprehension. Linguistic sense is only one way of putting across meaning.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

Jack - that's jolly interesting about the radio ballads, I wasn't aware of that. Sounds like it might be worthwhile me checking them to see how MaCcoll & Co worked with adding sound textures to ballads.

"However, the British folk tradition of sitting with a pint and singing away may not last as long"

Maybe so. Though pub trad. music sessions seem to be filled with young bright things wielding fiddles & bodhrans etc. The interest in singing trad. song amongst younger generations is currently far less by comparison, but it could easily kick off in the same way. Maybe I'm being a bit unrealistic in thinking that the commercial 'buy me' side of folk and the people 'play me' side of folk will not forever be bound at the hip, with the former inevitably driving interest in the latter. Though if there were more initiatives involving education of kids and people in general about trad. music/song in England in particular, that might change and we could potentially end up with a situation more akin to that which our Celtic neighbours are currently enjoying.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

As I look at the line ups being announced for some 'folk' festivals, I am strating to think it is time to be worried about the future of folk music. When you see things like 'The Divine Comedy' as the headline act for Moseley 'folk' festival. Excellent as they are, it is not exactly folk music!

Is it time to start telling festival organisers that we want to put the 'folk' back into festivals?

I am all in favour of 'modernising the tradition' as part of a folk/rock band, but the music we perform is largely traditional, but let's stop passing things of as folk that simply are not.

End of rant.

John

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM

First of all, tongue almost in cheek... but makes you think; Jim Carroll mentioned music as from centuries old ballads to Jumping Jack Flash and even later. Quite; as Jumping Jack Flash was released as a single 42 years ago. I suspect there are many songs people reckon are traditional, having heard them all their lives, that are younger than that song!

To try and say what I said earlier in the thread but to try and make it more coherent, (and not be berated by saying real ale fascists this time....)

The future of folk music is reasonably safe. The future of folk culture as experienced by most of the followers is not so safe, mainly because it is growing old with its followers. You can teach old dogs new tricks, and listening to Martin Carthy with Imagined Village is my way of proving it to myself, exciting, good to listen to and reaching out to interest a large number of people in music with folk roots.

However, the British folk tradition of sitting with a pint and singing away may not last as long as much older traditions such as Morris dancing or traditional arts & crafts. Why? Because those who enjoy sitting in the upstairs of a pub singing have a bloody good night and enjoy it to the full represent folk culture to most other people. Quite rightly so. But some of it is habit, some of it is nostalgia, all of it is a comfortable feeling for certain people. Younger people do get involved. I may be nearly 50 now, but a whippersnapper in the company of my friends over the years.   Not sure it can expand in the way it did in the '60s and '70s though.

Music = safe.
Lifestyle = as long as you can dodge coffins.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

Absolutely spot on Jack

I can understand the words of the rap, Dick
You should get out more

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:17 AM

but you could understand the words of the radio ballads.
[For that matter, their mix of song and spoken word was pretty similar to what a folksong/rap fusion achieves).
that is your opinion it is not undisputed fact ,the rap is amixture of spoken word and mechanical cacophony[thats my opinion].

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:19 AM

I'm experimenting with a friend of mine at the mo' using what they call Musique Concrete as a kind of aural scenic setting to ballads.. It's sounding pretty strange and abstract right now. I'm not sure if it will ultimately work but and I've threatened Jim Carroll with it, once it's done so he can be horrified by me horribly assaulting these poor helpless old songs!

Musique Concrete as song accompaniment is what MacColl and Parker were doing in the Radio Ballads with all those sound effects, only they didn't call it that. (For that matter, their mix of song and spoken word was pretty similar to what a folksong/rap fusion achieves).

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

to understand any music you have to go back its roots,in the case of folk music[imo]that means listening to traditional musicians and singers and absorbing their treatment of the songs.
before you can experiment is it is necessary to know where youare coming from,plus your experimentation has to have some connection to the roots of the music.
for example jazz continues to experiment,on occassions it uses twelve bar blues format,however it doesnt necessarily have to sound like blind lemon jefferson and frequently doesnt,but it is still a twelve bar blues,but if the player has listened to the roots of blues,he is [imo]more likely to undertstand that blues is supposed to be an expression of the players feelings,not just an intellectual exercise or an excuse to demonstrate his virtousity,an undertstanding of music roots can help the player to perform better music
if you want to become a good opera singer,listen to opera singers if you want to be a jazz singer listen to jazz singers,if you want to be a folk singer go back to the roots of the music and listen

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Crowsis
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:56 AM

"what happens with the generation that did not grow up experiencing Fred Jordan or Lizzie Higgins or Walter Pardon at first hand. Will they be studying the archive recordings for style"

Sound post from BrianP as usual.

I started out last year basically plundering traditional songs from recordings by revival bands (I never learned to read music as a kid). Later I began to acquire more material by traditional singers. In retrospect I really wish I'd have been able to use archive material from source singers from get go, because the 60's set a certain aesthetic spin on trad. songs which is all it's own, and now I've subliminally absorbed that I've found it harder to shake off than one might suppose. Even so with reference to 'style' I don't think I'll ever sound like - or indeed want to sound like - Lizzie Higgins for example. Although she's a fabulous singer, I'm reluctant to attempt to imitate a voice that simply isn't mine. Plus a lot of those recordings were done when these singers were elderly, they weren't singing at their peak. That link I posted below to Andrew King, I posted because I think his arrangements are very potent and evocative, but he really sounds as though he's imitating someone like A.L. Lloyd much too heavily for my taste. And I don't dig that at all. What's challenging for me right now, is finding my own voice through all of the variables. Maintaining a positive balance between valuing tradition and personal creativity. I reckon everyone who comes to this music - be they an amateur dabbler like me, or a professional musician - is inevitably going to be confronted with the tension posed between these supposed opposite positions we have been discussing here. And I think it will be that very tension, that will keep traditional musics alive and kicking in the future.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:29 AM

well i think basic fingerpickin and flat picking techniques are useful for all kinds of music,yes, those broader kids,very pc.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

< "Anyone else working with under 12's to try and ensure trad (& broader folk) song has a future?
Yes I am doing it all the time teaching guitar singing banjo concertina mandolin " >

Dick I am pleased to hear thar you are sharing your experience with the future possible folk lovers.

I take my guitar to a couple of primary schools and try to teach the kids the rudiments of how to play the guitar. I don't teach them folk music as such but let's say it is folkish.

I am more concerned about teaching them to play music - I will leave it to them what they want to play.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:33 AM

Dick, is broader folk a pc term for the fat kids?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

Anyone else working with under 12's to try and ensure trad (& broader folk) song has a future?
Yes I am doing it all the time teaching guitar singing banjo concertina mandolin

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

"I hoped we'd be able to move on and talk about the future "
Leveller - you have to qualify your question before even approaching a conclusion - the future for what?
The defintion of 'folk' on this thread and elsewhere on Mudcat recently has ranged from centuries old ballads to Jumpin' Jack Flash and everything in between (and even later).
Surely we need to narrow it down a bit?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM

The same challenge to both ends of the spectrum

and both failed.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:10 AM

Banjiman, I meant to respond to that post of yours last time, but we got a bit side-tracked! Yes, great initiative. Hopefully it will pick up in interest.

Like I said below, it would be lovely to see lots more similar moves encouraging a hands-on approach among regular peeps, and of course kids in particular. For me that's exactly what 'the future' of traditional song & music is all about. I keep thinking of capturing one of my little cousins to get them along to a song session before they suspect anything's amiss...

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM

Interestingly and in complete paradox to this thread what my children liked and enamoured them towards the music was the sense of togetherness and fun at folk concerts and festivals

We don't need to do anything much for the young adults except get out of their way

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:57 AM

"One thing we (Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club) are doing though is sponsoring kids from the local school(s) to enter the Wensleydale Tournament of song. There is a junior class for unaccompanied traditional song.

This year there is only one entry (which is a tragedy) we have an aim of getting a minmum of 10 entries next year (including my daughter!). We'll do this by the club paying the entry fee and working with 3 or 4 of the local schools to identify potentially interested kids and give them some coaching."

Hopefully the Jim Moray "debate" has died down no. So I'll try again.

Anyone else working with under 12's to try and ensure trad (& broader folk) song has a future?