What is the future of folk music?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM

"Curious though, what term would you use, for one who'd prefer his or her folk music unadulterated by outside influences from say, the last 50 years?"
Off the top of my head - non-existant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:37 AM

Taking the question at face value, it's a no-brainer. As the late and great Cajun fiddler Dewey Balfa once said: "A tradition is preserved one generation at a time". The future of folk music clearly lies with the succeeding generations, if only because Jim Moray and his age group will still (I hope) be playing and singing traditional songs and music when I, and Dick Miles, and Jim Carroll, are pushing up daisies. Then one day let's hope the generation beyond Jim Moray's will pick up the old material and do something different with it again.

It would be foolish to expect every successive generation to take the same approach to traditional material; each of us has a musical personality that's a product of the music that we've soaked up, whether that be MacColl, Carthy, 70s rock, minimalism or rap. The interesting thing will be to see what happens with the generation that did not grow up experiencing Fred Jordan or Lizzie Higgins or Walter Pardon at first hand. Will they be studying the archive recordings for style (as Sam Lee, Emily Portman and Lauren McCormick, for instance, have done)? Jon Boden and Fay Hield have booked Will Noble and John Cocking twice for their folk club, so they clearly think that the old style of performance is worth hearing and cherishing.

One of things I always liked about folk music is that each generation has always been prepared to learn from the previous one, and long may that continue, even as new experimental approaches are tested. As for 'purists', well, if you're going to apply that label to anyone who likes to simply stand up and sing an old song without accompaniment, then you're dismissing many of the greatest singers of our age according to a value judgement none of them would recognise. I suspect that way of singing a song will still hold its appeal however much technology gets showered over us.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:25 AM

Oh dear, back to the same old 'What is Folk' debate yet again. I hoped we'd be able to move on and talk about the future but, hey ho....(yawn).

Can't be arsed - talk amongst yourselves.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Mouldy Bob
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:32 AM

GUEST,Mouldy Bob

The Folk Purists? Why, that'll be those who prefer to keep their folk pure. If the cap fits...

Can't think of anybody that cap fits. Name names.

1.   Kurt Monfort
2.   Louisa Nickle
3.   Esmeralda Sherrard
4.   Darren Iannuzzi
5.   Rosalinda Dierking
6.   Amie Staff
7.   Jamie Kearley
8.   Marcie Hulme
9.   Clayton Plotkin
10.   Ted Wisener

There's 10 names for you Snail. I got them using this - http://www.kleimo.com/random/name.cfm If you need any more, help yourself.

JC - "Folk 'purists' are no different from those who, when they see a concert of chamber music advertised, expect to enjoy an evening of - well, chamber music, and if they are given a selection of 'Songs from the Shows', or 'A Night of Easy Listening' go home more than a little pissed off."

Yes, I agree. As I said, no harm there. I'm not really interested in arguing over labels - Folk Purists was the first thing that came into my head. Funnily enough, everyone seemed to know what I meant - I can see why the labels can be divisive and fun to pick over, of course... Curious though, what term would you use, for one who'd prefer his or her folk music unadulterated by outside influences from say, the last 50 years?

Cue uproarious & hilarious answers of Dull / Blinkered, etc - but those aside - I'm curious if there's a term you'd use? Not putting you in that bracket, not knowing you from Adam.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:43 AM

While we're bandying names for traditionalists around, what about the so-called "elitists", "Folk nazi's", "folk police" and not to mention the scary "folk masons" and "folk mafia"!
"Purist" doesn't sound quite so bad when compared to those ;-)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:42 AM

The deep entrenched divisions that are expressed here, amongst those who probably love lots of the same folk music, just encourages the myth that there is an "either or" choice between experimentation and traditional conventions in delivery

Its not either or
Only yesterday I had the lovely surprise of hearing 3 random songs in the car:
May Bradley: Under the Leaves
1st track of Bellowhead 1st album
then a track off a CD od West Gallery music that I have

it was all great to me

I didn't for one minute think that I had to choose
I know many might say they are just expressing what they like and they have the right to do that - but the repeated vehemence of these arguments suggests a deeper difference, and does, in fact, push people much closer to an either/or approach. It certainly does me and I don't like it.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:32 AM

GUEST,Mouldy Bob

The Folk Purists? Why, that'll be those who prefer to keep their folk pure. If the cap fits...

Can't think of anybody that cap fits. Name names.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:23 AM

"Really? Tell us their names."
Sorry Bryan - not really prepared to speak on their behalf. I hope they'll be noted by their absence.
Mouldy:
'Purist' is one of those meaningless labels that is convenient exactly because of its meaninglessness - a handy stick.....
The British tradition is more or less an unnacompanied one - in nearly fifty years I've known only a tiny handful of clubs that banned the use of instruments - other than that there has been a constant and innovative use of musical accompaniment, sometimes effective, sometimes not - not a great deal of purity there!
While a minutely small number of clubs over that time have concentrated just on traditional songs (usually as a precaution against being swamped by the singer-songwriter, mid- Atlantic mob), I've known few that would not have booked Eric Bogle, Cyril Tawney, MacColl, Seeger, Adam McNaughton, Tim Lyons, Con 'Fada' O'Drisceoil.... or any of the large army of writers of their own material who were and are composing using folk forms - pure - what pure?
Folk 'purists' are no different from those who, when they see a concert of chamber music avertised, expect to enjoy an evening of - well, chamber music, and if they are given a selection of 'Songs from the Shows', or 'A Night of Easy Listening' go home more than a little pissed off.
We use labels like 'folk' in order to exercise a choice in what we listen to, just as we use them so we know what tins to open, not to keep ourselves 'pure', whatever that means.
Welcome to the war Mouldy - now grab yer trenching spade and start digging!
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan - some way to backing up your argument that all is not the doom and gloom that I occasionally believe it to be - our local pub put on a show of music last night - two young women from the UK, 'Blyde Lasses', playing and singing Shetland music and song beautifully - highly recommended to all.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Crowsis
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:19 AM

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Mouldy Bob
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:30 PM

Nice post Mouldy & welcome to the forum too btw. :)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Mouldy Bob
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:09 AM

The Folk Purists? Why, that'll be those who prefer to keep their folk pure. If the cap fits... No shame there.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:03 PM

The same challenge to both ends of the spectrum -

Jim Carroll

I can also name you several excellent UK singers who have thrown up ther hands and left the scene in depair of what's happening.

Really? Tell us their names.

GUEST,Mouldy Bob

To me, a great deal of the folk purists seem to be intent on keeping the music exactly as it is

Really? Tell us their names.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Jim Redfern
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:18 PM

It's easy to assume that one has to look to the youngsters to be the manifestation of the answer to the question in the thread.I don't know what the future will be but the most innovative performers on the scene currently are The Claque with a combined age of about 230! The underground movement in traditional song,in particular,will probably retain the characteristics it has now,as long as respectful and awestruck singers like Jackie Oates continue to go and seek them out and reproduce their songs.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Mouldy Bob
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:30 PM

Although I love a great deal of traditional British music, I just cannot get beyond this charade that it is still a living breathing naive entity - naive as in untouched by outside forces and sung unaware of outside forces. To me, a great deal of the folk purists seem to be intent on keeping the music exactly as it is - which is fine - but the falsehood comes when they pretend that in that setting it's a living, evolving tradition. It's not, no more than am-dram Shakespear is living and evolving.

Maybe these people should persue Antique Folk, where they get to preserve things exactly as they please - as close to source as possible. That's great - I thoroughly enjoy Antique Folk - especially Dick Miles' jumpers (seriously) - in fact, to me, the way it's sung often has a lot more meaning and feeling than the more exploratory, Ikea Folk.

And the Ikea Folk should get on with their exploration, happily acknowledging that times have changed completely in both a musical and social sense. Those days are gone, man. Me personally - there's a lot of this Ikea Folk I consider guff of the highest order, but I applaud their right to try. Some of it I love. i'd put M Carthy, Nic Jones, Ali Roberts all in the Ikea Folk category, but they're amongst the classic designs. There's also a whole raft of forgettable plastic cups.

I'm not suggesting two different genres really, just different types of furniture with different reasons for their design but the same heritage - somewhere to park yer arse and smoke pipe at the end of an evening.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:10 PM

PS - Guildford - Maguire songs - not specifically as far as I'm aware but plenty from the Troubles, from within the NI communities (on both sides) and from sympathisers from afar.
The miners strike didn't appear to produce many from the mining communities as far as I am aware, apart from sloganising parodies, but plenty fom sympathetic outsiders.
Whether they have passed into any tradition depends on what happened to them at a later date - bit difficult with the miners after Thatcher scorched-earthed the industry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM

Ruth:
"?????"
Was referring to the cries of 'witchhunt' which apparently were an effort to place our boy above criticism - nothing more; we're all entitled to pro and con the argument however we see fit.
Will:
Thanks for that; for me it's what it's all about. So many people early in the revival were using folk music in the way it was always used - as a comment on what they saw around them; MacColl, Tawney, Ed Pickford… Matt McGinn in particular rang bells with me: I was an apprentice in the Liverpool shipyards when I heard songs like Swan Necked Valve, The Tea Break Strike and Foreman O'Rourke, which were saying what I was experiencing daily.
Then it appeared, (to me anyway) it all turned in on itself and became navel-gazing and private, concerned with the individuals' own particular angst rather than relating to all of us; a friend described in an article as feeling you wanted to "tap them on the shoulder and ask them for permission to come in".
I don't believe that's what folk song did; rather, it reflected the collective experience, so much so that it became relevant wherever the songs ended up. You only have to listen to Harry Cox's "And that's what the buggers thought of us", comment to Lomax after singing Betsy The Serving Maid to realise this to be the case.
Those of us involvd in this particular school of thought believed that folk song forms lent themselves to modern self-expression - that's why MacColl, Tawney, McGinn et al, composed the songs the way they did. One of the positive aspects of this as far as the clubs were concerned was that we could fill our clubs on the basis of songs that 'sounded' like folk - even though they weren't - it gave us the necessary consistency we believe we needed.
Your posting leaves a great deal of food for thought, so I'd like to come back to it later rather than end up with typer's cramp.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:52 PM

Cheers Ralphie, I'm not much of a purist after all, huh? Though I'm definitely a crank! ;-) Btw. 'Flat Earth' is a lovely piece of work.. Snooze sweetly!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:48 PM

Hi CrowSister.
Your fusion stuff sounds interesting.
Please let us all know when you've got something you'd like us to hear.
Regards Ralphie
I'll go to bed tonight safe in the knowledge that Dick thinks I'm a good concertina player, but not much of a singer...
Can't possibly disagree with that.
I'll sleep safely then. One out of Two isn't bad. (Never pretended to be a singer in the first place!)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

"To be honest, nothing much that gets said here in the name of "criticism" matters a whit,"

Precisely! I said exactly the same thing last time there was one of these arguments. People will buy the music of artists they like, irrespective of a couple of comments made on a discussion board.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:10 PM

I play Music because its my life,I dont play or sing to make gimmicks or to do something that makes me lots of money.
Idont care what others do ,[thats their business,
but I reserve the right to speak my mind,when I dont like something without being called pompous or arrogant.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM

"I appreciate the sociological/historical aspect of the music you describe, Jim, and it's very obvious how it touches your own heart. I just wonder, once again, how such music is to go forward, develop and progress and perhaps have some consonance with times other than those in the past. We live in a curious period vis-a-vis this music."
   it will go forward by those singers that have absorbed the traditional singers style ,it will go forward by a continous movement and through cultural connections,the problem with just experimenting with two completely unconnected cultural styles [english unaccompanied traditional singing and rap]is that you end up with an eccentric collage with two styles that do not sit comfortably together,it is the equivalent of mixing strawberry jam with caviar,it ia gastronomic catastrophe,here we have a musical absurdity.
if the singer had decided to sing part of the song and talk the rest it may well have worked as an experiment,providing the singer was competent at both singing and story telling.
traditional music or any music[imo] can do without gimmicks or thoughtless experiments.
if we could have understood the rappers words and the accompanimment had been lower in the mix,it might possibly have worked better.
but why rap?what is the cultural connection between the two styles
mixing of styles can work,but generally the musicians have to be very good at both styles[which is unusual]most musicians are good at one style,can you imagine charlie parker trying to perform with martin Carthy?or Martin trying to play be bop,I am sure he could do it,but he would need to listen for a long time to absorb and be comfortable with it.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM

Ralphie,I would give your cd an impartial review,my personal dislike of your continued personal attacks on me,does not alter my opinion of you as a concertina player,you are a very good concertina player,not much of a singer,and someone with clearly a few problems.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

Folk music is a record of the experiences, emotions and opinions of people who otherwise have had no voice; our transportation songs are a record of the enclosures from the point of those who got the shitty end of the stick: emigration songs, the experiences of those forced to leave home because of famine, evictions and political persecution; solders songs about those sent to 'die for the king or queen'; bothy songs a unique chunk of Scots farming history...... Where do you stop?

Apparently with the tunes? And apparently with any modern recording or transmission of similar events in our times? I wonder if there are modern songs about, say, the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven, or about the Battle of Orgreave (Miners' Strike 1984). If there are, then these are perhaps the modern-day equivalent of what went before - they certainly would deal with similar themes.

I appreciate the sociological/historical aspect of the music you describe, Jim, and it's very obvious how it touches your own heart. I just wonder, once again, how such music is to go forward, develop and progress and perhaps have some consonance with times other than those in the past. We live in a curious period vis-a-vis this music. We're close enough to it for some of it still to have relevance to our lives or the lives of our families, and some people, like yourself, have been part of the collection process. But we're being slowly and gradually distanced from it by the passing of the years. (This is not to detract from its melodies or its poetry).

What relevance will it have for those who sing it in 100 years' time, and what will stand alongside it if nothing new emerges? If nothing whatever new of the genre is created, what then? You may well, rightly in your view, reply, that the music has no need to develop or progress. Fair enough - but I wonder how it will sit in the musical spectrum in 100 years' time.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

"which is more than can be said of those prepared to throw in the towel on his behalf."

?????

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:44 PM

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Hi Ruth

How true but many thanks for bringing out a sensible note here.

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

"let's just call it music shall we?"
No, lets not shall we - we are talking about a specific type of music - I dont go in and ask for a tin of soup.
Though you are free not to use the term if you feel that your particular music doesn't live up to the description - would that others had your honesty and initiative.
"I'll do it my way."
And if you put it up for public scrutiny we will have an opinion on it and will discuss it when the opportunity arises.
"But really, there are only 2 types of music."
Oh dear, try telling it to the jazzmen and the classicists and the middle-of-the-roaders and all the other types whose music has been dignified with a title so we know where to find it when we want it.
An immediate flaw in your logic - isn't 'Music manufactured in commercial studios' performed by musicians or has R2D2 finally taken over the asylum?
"What else could it possibly be?"
You jest, surely!
Folk music is a record of the experiences, emotions and opinions of people who otherwise have had no voice; our transportation songs are a record of the enclosures from the point of those who got the shitty end of the stick: emigration songs, the experiences of those forced to leave home because of famine, evictions and political persecution; solders songs about those sent to 'die for the king or queen'; bothy songs a unique chunk of Scots farming history...... Where do you stop?
In many cases these events would be merely facts and figures in books and are quite often the only existing records of what took place.
They are what we are and where we've been and are forest in which all our family trees are planted.
"It'll make poor Jim's hair curl!"   
Digitising some recordings CS - will listen later - thank you for assuming I still have hair - (which I do, I hasten to add).
Jim Carroll
PS Can I say that while I may not appreciate J M's treatment of traditional (no - folk) songs, for what it's worth he has my respect for turning up here and fighting his corner - which is more than can be said of those prepared to throw in the towel on his behalf.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:34 AM

Well, I started with part of O'Shaughnessy's poem. Here it is in full. Sums it up for me.

We Are the Music-Makers
        
We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.

We, in the ages lying
In the buried past of the earth,
Built Nineveh with our sighing,
And Babel itself with our mirth;
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
To the old of the new world's worth;
For each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Crowsis yes that's me cookieless ;-)
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:29 AM

"Assuming that you are Crowsister? I acknowledge your love for a more traditional interpretation of song."

Hey Ralphie, yeah I like to sing unaccompanied. But I'm actually probably more open minded than you might imagine from some of my postings. I'm experimenting with a friend of mine at the mo' using what they call Musique Concrete as a kind of aural scenic setting to ballads.. It's sounding pretty strange and abstract right now. I'm not sure if it will ultimately work but and I've threatened Jim Carroll with it, once it's done so he can be horrified by me horribly assaulting these poor helpless old songs! Go figure ;-)
And as for innovation, I think this guy's arrangements are quite the most exciting I've heard: Andrew Stuart King It'll make poor Jim's hair curl!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM

"unless you believe folk song to be merely words and tune"

What else could it possibly be?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Well Dick.
It probably isn't going to be worth sending you a review copy of my new CD then?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Crowsister, any debacles are all in your head. To be honest, nothing much that gets said here in the name of "criticism" matters a whit, as it's pretty much the same half a dozen people saying the same things over and over and over again in dozens of threads. Mudcat's "purists" are pretty much dismissed as cranks everywhere else.

At the end of the day, Jim Moray will make records. People who like them will buy them, people who don't, won't. People who think there is too much emphasis on commercial folk music will keep singing to each other, and telling each other how fantastically talented they all are. Whatever. Twas always thus.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM

Ralphie - no witchhunt here.
There are enough voices in favour of J M's treatment of Lucy Wan to suggest that an open debate is permissable - or do you only want to take the 'aye' votes?
"I didn't have much time for most of Ewan McColls work."
I've never had a great deal of trouble finding a good 'sleeves rolled upper' on Ewan and his singing - would you make this a no-go area as well?
Another thing that will kill folk music stone dead is anodyne comment and sycophancy in place of honest criticism (CS's 'preciousness').
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM

Sorry CS....Cross posting there! Woops!
I'll state again.
The future of Folk (how I'm beginning to hate that word. let's just call it music shall we?).....is absolutely fine.
I'll do it my way. People might like it, people might not. Hey Ho.
You can do it your way. People might like it, people might not...
etc, etc....
Assuming that you are Crowsister? I acknowledge your love for a more traditional interpretation of song.
Great....Hopefully I'll get to hear you one day. Look forward to it. Unaccompanied singing can be really uplifting and emotional.
I've been mesmerised by Peta Webbs voice on hundreds of occasions.
But really, there are only 2 types of music.

1. Music performed by musicians (any genre)
2. Music manufactured in commercial studios by the likes of Sony/Warner.

I think that I prefer 1.
Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:10 AM

Constructive criticism is important,all of us have to put up with criticism from reviewers,I have had some prety bad ones like someone describing my singing as if i was singing with a peg over my nose and on another occasion being a poor mans MartinCarthy [Isound nothing like Martin Carthy.
however there was constructive criticism foe example a habit i had [which ihave now corrected of singning the [thur],so constructive criticism is something performers can learn from.at all times my critiucism has been constructive[I pointed out pluses about Jims performance [tuneful pleasant voice good diction].
Ralphie,no one has said that anybody cant do anything,
nobody is trying to restrict anyone
I have said I didnt like the inclusion of the rap,I have a perfect right to state an opinion without being called arrogant or pompous,now get off my back.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

And actually, (if anyone is still interested at all!).
What really annoys me, is fakery.
I'm talking X Factor, Antares Pitch shifting. Miming.
Basically music that is manufactured by an industry....(Yes industry) that is in it purely for the desire to promote a "product"
Any genuine artist, from an orchestral flautist to the lead singer of Napalm Death, has my support 100%.
I once had a well known boy band in a Radio studio, actually miming to their latest single, live!..(remember, it was Radio!!)
All set up by their management.
Apart from me, nobody got the irony. Doh!
So, it matters not the genre of music being performed.
As long as the performers actually play and sing, they can do what the hell they like!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:58 AM

"a witch hunt"

Hold up there Ralphie, I don't think anyone's getting burned alive here! Though this minor spat seems to echo what to my mind can be a terribly precious attitude towards some artists work among the folk community. Seems like no-one is allowed to critically comment on anything around here without eliciting screams of 'rape, murder, fire'! This is a forum for the discussion of folk music, so the work of folk musicians is an entirely relevant topic of discussion. After a recent similar debacle involving a poster's criticism of another artists work, this thread is starting to feel a bit uncomfortably de ja vu.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM

Firstly I agree with JM. This shouldn't become a witch hunt about one persons interpretation of one song.
Secondly, I'm with Will Fly on this.
Stained glass as produced hundreds of years ago still exists, and is beautiful in its own way. There for all to enjoy in churches, and other places.
But,there are also many artists working in stained glass today. Some in a traditional way, some in what could be said is an iconoclastic way.
In fact the same is true of pottery, dance, poetry, in fact all of the arts.
None of the work of artists (of any genre) in the 21st century in any way detracts from what has gone before, so, why should music be any different? Well, because it isn't different, that's why
Will cites Shirley Collins and Davey Grahams collaboration as a major influence in his life.
I was influenced by Dick Gaughan, Bailey/Rosselson, Nic Jones..etc.
Through these revivalist (how I hate that word) singers, I discovered all the older generation of performers and musicians.
Without them, a whole side of music might have passed me by.
And now it is the same for the next generation to discover the huge legacy that has been passed down to them. And they are so doing in droves.
All the books, and post 1900 (ish) recordings of songs/tunes from previous generations are still there. They're just being re-interperated, that's all.
Some people might not like it. Well tough!
I didn't have much time for most of Ewan McColls work. So what?
That's just my opinion.
So, I state again my answer to the OP's original question. a resounding YES.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:15 AM

"Problem? That's what youth is all about -"
It's only a problem in the 'Roll over Beethoven' terms you set it out.
"nu folk" isn't aimed at them."
This is acceptable only if you take on board the fact that experimentation reaches a point when the music ceases to be 'folk' - unless you believe folk song to be merely words and tune.
Is Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' (to my mind, one of the most beautiful pieces of orchestral music ever written), folk music, and if it isn't, how does it differ from what is being done in the name of experimentation today?
The constant characteristic of folk songs is their universal timelessness - they took root wherever they landed and became part of that landscape. That is why we have variants of the same songs all over the English-speaking world and down the centuries. Put a sell-by on this, as happens with popular music today and you destroy that universal timelessness. It is this, I believe, that gives the music its importance, what makes it 'our' music rather than something produced, packaged and sold to us; what makes it democratic .   
"There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is not to the detriment of people that DO want to experiment with it."
True - and has always been the case - (Vaughan Williams, Delius, Grainger - et al), but it must work both ways.
"....until Jim decided to use me as an example of bad music."
No I didn't; I responded to somebody putting the song up as an example of good ballad singing - I disagree. I'm not qualified to say whether it is good or bad in the particular style that you've chosen to sing it - just that, IMO, it doesn't work as a folk song, particularly a ballad.
Surely you've been around long enough to be able to cope with your singing being discussed openly?
"Can we drop it now?"
With respect, you've signed in as a guest - don't tell us how to arrange the furniture
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:25 AM

"Please go back to the topic"

I thought you made some comments that were actually rather pertinent to this topic on the link I posted, which is why I posted it. Sorry if it pissed you off though. But yes, the topic isn't all about 'Is Jim Moray's Lucy Wan brilliant or shit?' I think we probably need a whole separate thread for that..

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:13 AM

When I was a youngster, aged 20 or so (no, this is not the beginning of a folk song, but it could be...), I was knocked for six by Shirley Collins singing "Pretty Saro" with the accompaniment of Davy Graham on guitar. I can't describe the excitement I felt at hearing the purity of Shirley's voice with the beautiful modal playing of Davy - it married the old and the unusual to create something new and exotic. I thought it was wonderful then, and I think it wonderful today.

I'm using this as purely as an example of the sort of thing that can move young people to become interested in the music. Whether you like or dislike Shirley and Davy's experimentation is not relevant to my point - which is that the difference, the approach, the nature of the sound was what caught me up and wanted me to try it for myself. You can't and shouldn't expect the future of any art to be static, and you can't and shouldn't expect people indulging in the art not to experiment and play with the art.

There are some excellent artists working in stained glass today, producing beautiful artefacts in the medium. There are some beautiful pieces of medieval stained glass in churches all over the country. What's to worry over? It's stained glass. The tradition and the art goes on - different but continuous. I'm sure folk music - songs and tunes, by the way (lest ye forget), will go the same way.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:34 AM

Can we drop it now? I didn't want to be dragged into this at all until Jim decided to use me as an example of bad music. I don't need either to be told how much people hate it, or be defended. It's all by the by.

Please go back to the topic and stop this now.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM

it has nothing to do with being old or grumpy,it has to do with constructive criticism,its pathetic that people are not allowed to say they do not like something without being accused of being grumpy or old.
I am 59 young,I love music and ilike to see it performed,I donot enjoy Jim morays inclusion of the rap in this balad.
for that mattere idonot enjoy Peter pears singning waly waly with benjamin britten playing a ridiculous accompaniment , the interesting point here is that no one acuuses me of being grumpy or old when i criticise pears or britten.
worshipping youth respective of performance is a gigantic mistake,yes young singers should be encouraged,but they are no more above criticism than old opera singers and classical composers or anyone else.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM

"interesting to see whether in 10 or 20 years time this track will be seen as anything other than a passing curiosity."

I think that's probably an inevitability, as indeed it is for virtually all popular commercial music.
The *ballad* itself will continue to endure perfectly unharmed, quite irrespective of that however.
I feel there is too much emphasis being placed on professional artists making commercial folk in any event. And while their work is high-profile in the media may attract the interest of a fresh generation of enthusiasts, like all popular trends (including that of the 60's revival) it will pass.
I'd like to see more emphasis placed on the value of encouraging and supporting amateurs to take up traditional songs and tunes for themselves, and less on the importance of passing commercial music trends.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM

Again it is not an exclusive situation. There is, always has been and always will be, youngsters and us old fogies! I can see what you are getting at, theleveller, but surely because the youngsters want to do their own thing there is no need to deny us our bit of pleasure is there?

Likewise, Jim, I agree about keeping the music as is becuae an awful lot of people enjoy iy just like it is. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is not to the detriment of people that DO want to experiment with it.

I don't see anyone saying that one line MUST be followed to the exclusion of all others so just what is the argument about? It has worked since the year dot and, as far as I can tell, will continue to work forever. People will experiment. Some people will not like the experiment while others will. Both the original and the new version will still be listened to. We end up with more choice. It's a win-win situation in which everyone gets their way:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:58 AM

JM's version of Lucy Wan doesn't work for me, but I'm not his target audience. However it occurs to me that in a few years' time this version will sound just as dated and of its period as the 1970s electric folk of Steeleye Span. Martin Carthy's version, on the other hand, which simply delivers the song on its own terms, sounds as fresh now as when I first heard it, more years ago than I care to think about.

It is characteristic of ballads that they don't analyse the participants' emotions or motives, they simply set out the events and leave the listener to draw their own conclusions. So for me the (largely incomprehensible) rap section adds nothing to the song.

Nevertheless, Jim is to be congratulated on producing on getting a traditional ballad played on Radio 1. If it prompts a few young people to explore folk music further then good luck to him. However it will be interesting to see whether in 10 or 20 years time this track will be seen as anything other than a passing curiosity.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

"One of the problems with all youth culture is the constant demand for renewal"

Problem? That's what youth is all about - in fact that's what life is all about. As Darwin pointed out, what doesn't constantly evolve and adapt becomes extinct.

"Sacrifive our music on the 'youth' altar and it will fizzle out the next time something new comes along"

Actually it's their music as well and what 'youth' has been doing with folk music over the 45 years that I've been involved in it is what has kept it alive and kicking arses. It's certainly why it's kept me interested and excited for four and a half decades, enduring where other musical tastes have come and gone. And, let's face it, they're going to do it whatever you or I say - my god, I wish I was 40 years younger!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM

Further thoughts:
We started to visit this part of the West of Ireland because of its rich store of songs, music, dancing and storytelling. Among the first things we noticed was the total lack of a genertion gap - young people going to the older generation to learn songs, play music, dance - oldies relying on youngsters for new ears and fresh dancing partners - and sometimes, just for company, a total interaction. This has left us with a continuance of those things that were passed on to us, hence the number of youngsters now playing music.
The British revival was launched on what we were given by the oldies - Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Phil Tanner.... It started out with a total respect for these people and a total recognition of their contribution to our music. That respect gradualy degenerated into lip service and marked a sharp decline in the club scene.
Now, it appears "isn't aimed at them." it has disapeared altogether - if this is to be believed.
One of the problems with all youth culture is the constant demand for renewal - if this wasn't invented by the music industry, it is certainly exploited to the full by them.
It doesn't work like that with folk music.
Sacrifive our music on the 'youth' altar and it will fizzle out the next time something new comes along - you only have to look what happened to Sinéad O'Connor's 'Nua Sean Nós' to see that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:18 AM

"isn't aimed at them."
Folk music was never 'aimed' at any particular group; it was always the self-expression of those with no other voice.
"858,492 so far"
If we're going into the numbers game lets clear the stage for Lady Gaga and her counterparts; numbers are no guide to either quality or relevance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:14 AM

Last line should read:

So PLEASE don't lecture me about the death of folk clubs or getting kids involved in folk music. ......... with a smiley face at the end!

Oh, we'll be using The Yorkshire Garland work as a source of "local" songs for the kids to sing where possible.

Altogther now:

"In that beautiful dale, home of the Swale,
How well do I love thee, how well do I love thee?
Beautiful dale, home of the Swale,
Beautiful, beautiful dale."

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:09 AM

"In the heyday [clubs] attracted regular audiences of 100 plus, with standing room only being the norm"

We always have a few sell out nights each year at KFFC (that's pushing 100) but we also have nights where we have a couple of dozen (depends who's booked and what else is going on). It works either way and being a small village hall it still feels intimate. There's a real buzz when it is pretty full though.

"but I can put you in touch with several hunderd youngsters singing and playing traditional music within five miles of here to an excellent standard - how about you?"

Jim, we don't even have a hundred youngsters living within 5 miles of the club so that would be difficult! One thing we are doing though is sponsoring kids from the local school(s) to enter the Wensleydale Tournament of song. There is a junior class for unaccompanied traditional song.

This year there is only one entry (which is a tragedy) we have an aim of getting a minmum of 10 entries next year (including my daughter!). We'll do this by the club paying the entry fee and working with 3 or 4 of the local schools (Wendy already does some singing workshops in these schools) to identify potentially interested kids and give them some coaching.

Having said that about the importance of getting trad song sung Wendy has also been working with one of the schools this year on writing a song for the choir class (as part of a wider project). The school in question is on Catterick Garrison and the theme of the song is what it feels like to be left behind when your father is away at war. This seems an equally valid "folk" expression to me.

There will be a charity CD of the kids singing the song (and a few others including some trad)) available mid-April. Funds raised go to the school and Forces family charities.

So don't lecture me about the death of folk clubs or getting kids involved in folk music.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM

"the next generation of singers and musicians will do with them what they think floats their collective boats"


Well said, Ralphie. What our two archetypal grumpy old men sitting in their corner of the St. Ewan Old Folkie's Home haven't grasped is that "nu folk" isn't aimed at them. Sorry guys but neither you nor I are the future of folk. The torch has well and truly been picked up by a new generation who aren't afraid to experiment and reinterpret the material and the genre - a process which, inevitably, is going to raise eyebrows and hackles and piss off the pedants. But thank goodness that we have the likes of Jim Moray, Mawkin, Jim Causley, Lucy Ward, Kat Gilmore and Jamie Roberts, Kris Drever and many, many more who are enjoying themselves and bringing back the excitement and vitality to folk music and, by attracting a new audience, saving it from a terminal decline. The number of hits of Jim Moray's myspace (858,492 so far), and the press coverage he's attracting, shows that his music has a resonance with quite a few people out there – many of whom would not go near folk music as practised by their parents and grandparents.

Giving the music to our children is what prompted this thread. Thank f**k they are happy to receive it. What they do with it is up to them.