What is the future of folk music?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:41 AM

"Hammond Organ solos?"
I suppose it's a matter of taste - bearing in mind that our tradition is almost entirely word/narrative based and anything you do to interfere with that is detrimental to the song.
I've always been an admirer of Peggy Seeger's singing; she introduced me to the American versions of ballads and songs and the research she put into them helped me understand how the oral tradition worked. She used this to inform her own songwriting and the skill she had with words puts her songs up among the best as far as I'm concerned.
But the last time I heard her sing she'd taken to using keyboards.... sorry Peggy... a wall to climb to get to the understanding of the song - for me anyway. I don't object to this because it's 'new' but because it gets in the way - not all 'progress' is 'progressive' - we have to travel some distance nowaday to get a half-decent loaf of bread since our local bakers was 'progressed' out of business by the supermarkets.
"I applaud Jims work in the collecting "
Thanks for that Ralphie - but sometimes I wish people would stop saying this (but not just yet!) - rewiring houses was work - recording singers was a self-indulgent pleasure.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:01 AM

Hammond Organ solos?
Well. did it on our interpretation of a Mike Waterson song.
(Working Chap) PJD's CD Flat Earth. (sadly now out of print).
Mike liked it. So, What problem?
Sorry for my spat at Dick Miles yesterday, but, I do feel that a few people should take their blinkers off as regards to interpretations of all music. If you hadn't noticed. It's 2010. The world moves on (in a traditional way obviously), and the next generation, whilst hopefully embracing the past, will take it their own way.
Listened to the Dave Burland/Nic Jones take of Lankin yesterday, modulating from Major to Minor as the story unfurled. Not traditional in any way that some people here would approve of, but, emminently listenable. (Has even got a cheesy synth part on it, that always makes me smile!).
Relevant? I think so.
As relevant as Peta and Kens London club is, as relevant as the Volenteer and the Radway in Sidmouth are, as relevant as Bellowhead, Faustus, and....(dare I say it) Jim Moray is?
I applaud Jims work in the collecting and archiving field.
Songs and tunes should be collected as they can be.
But, the next generation of singers and musicians will do with them what they think floats their collective boats. And there is bugger all we old fogies can do about it!
For myself, I'm intrigued, and sometimes astonished by the music being created today.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:37 AM

It's all relative...for people who are used to going to large venue concerts, 100 people is intimate.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:20 AM

"What I value about a folk club is its intimacy and you don't get that with an audience of 100 "
Does it have to be either-or?
We had the small, intimate singarounds as part of our workshop sessions, but along with these we could pull in large audiences for, say, Seamus Ennis or Joe Heaney, or Paddy Tunney or MacColl and Seeger.... with every musician and folk enthusiast in the Greater London area turning up so that the atmosphere crackled - magic!
The aim was always to narrow the gap between resident/lesser-known guest evenings upwards, not downwards.
It seems to me that being satisfied with small audiences is selling the music short - "come and we'll cater for you" did it for me.
Apart from anything else, I've always got the impression that strangers were often more comfortable in a crowd rather than a small group where they were obviously the odd-one-out.
I've walked into some of these 'small, intimate sessions' and been left with the feeling that I'd intruded on a private family gathering, or in some cases, a wake even - not for me, I'm afraid.
We were there for the music - the intimacy could come later if you played your cards right!
Countess and Cap'n
"screaming Hammond organ " - "the banging of dustbin lids"
Now look what you've done - as is the 'singalonga' mob with the finger-in-cheeks wasn't enough!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

and the banging of dustbin lids should be compulsory in all ballads.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:12 PM

A "screaming Hammond organ in The Outlandish Knight would be rather good FX. The song's about a bloke steaming in through Fair Margaret's bedroom window blowing some brass thing and why she should just say no. Secondly, it would explain why the cat woke up and got the parrot. Excellent interpretation.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:16 PM

In the heyday [clubs] attracted regular audiences of 100 plus, with standing room only being the norm. Today most clubs are happy with a regular couple of dozen or so. This is not because people don't want the music, I think it has proven that the Folk Clubs have done their job.

Not sure I entirely agree with the last statement. I think it is maybe more of a case that the clubs have found their niche. What I value about a folk club is its intimacy and you don't get that with an audience of 100 - that scale is more appropriate to a small theatre or concert hall.

I mostly go to singarounds and I think that if you get more than about 20 - 25, it is getting unwieldy.

I agree with Crow Sister when she says

I love singing this stuff unaccompanied - for my own pleasure. And so long as there are 'spit & sawdust' folk sessions where people gather to share music for its own sake

I also think the Snail's last couple of sentences above is spot on.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:09 PM

Miskin Man

The Future of Folk is well safe in the hands of the next generation. It's already started just looka round at the wonderful youngsters we see all around us. James Finlay and Dyer Cummings are prime examples. (just use Google)
As for the old stagers not being replaced just look at the likes of Vicki Swan and Johnny Dyer and the songs they are writing, ready made Tradition in my view. Mary and Anahata breath new life into everything they touch.

We've had all of those at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, and a good time had by all. It may be that the folk club has had its day but I hope not. Hearing a real live human being singing and playing a few feet in front of you is a magical experience that the concert can never provide. Sitting alone in your room watching YouTube videos just doesn't cpme near it.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM

100

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:02 PM

well said Jim,I agree about the accompaniment,and the rap is ridiculous,I would be kinder about the interpretation,Carthys version is better,but its reasonably well sung[imo].,it is a bit theatrical,but if he had sung it at a concert unaccompanied ,Iwould have thought its good enough without being exceptional.
I am not impressed by people like Ralph Jordan trying to tell me about Jim Morays pedigree or where he has played, I am judging one track only and I let my ears do that for me ,I do not need someone telling me thatI should like something because someone is famous or has played in TEXAS[of course Texans are bigger and better than anyhwereor anybody else]look at George Bush.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

"I wondered if there is anyone performimg on the UK folk circuit who you do admire? Under the age of say... 45? "
Paul - out of touch with the UK scene but I can put you in touch with several hunderd youngsters singing and playing traditional music within five miles of here to an excellent standard - how about you?
I can also name you several excellent UK singers who have thrown up ther hands and left the scene in depair of what's happening.
"As ALL the original trad verses are in there! "
They probably are - but you have to clamber over a heap of intrusive noise to get to hear it - including what sounds suspiciously like two people fighting with wooden swords.
The accomanpiment is overbearing, there is, as afar as I can see, no intrepretation other than an occasional theatrical stab at one, and the rap is a joke that plummets the whole thing into meaningless mush - IMO,of course.
Words are of no use if you can't follow them close enough to make sense of the plot.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:30 PM

Thanks Leveller. Nicely put. Hooray!

Word to your mother.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

And in the end, whatever version you prefer, it's the song (and folk music) that's the winner. Hooray! I now get a glimpse of the future.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Dave of Mawkin
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

Like you say GSS each to their own, for me, the ballad doesnt stand up on its own otherwise I would of 'got' the song when I heard Jon Boden sing it years ago (and he is a fantastic singer)..so it took a new interpretation for me to 'get'it. So Moray has done his job well.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:55 AM

GSS: ",they are singers who really knew their business,and could brioing ballads to life without the need for rap interludes.these songs stand up perfectly well unaccompanied if the singer is a good singer"

RuthA had it right below, it doesn't have to be an either / or situation.

I love singing this stuff unaccompanied - for my own pleasure. And so long as there are 'spit & sawdust' folk sessions where people gather to share music for its own sake, I can't see myself ever wanting to quit doing that. I also think it'd be super if more people felt like dipping their toes in unaccompanied trad. songs. But that's still only one way of doing it, and it doesn't preclude an artist exploring the exact same songs in their own personal way. In that YouTube I posted Jim M speaks of responding to the songs "honestly" and that means for him not attempting to sound 'authentic' or trying to pretend to be something that he's not by ignoring all the other musical influences that have contributed to his own way of experiencing and responding to these songs. Whether or not some others find the result aesthetically pleasing to their ears or not, is not as important as an artist addressing the material itself with honesty and human integrity. And IMO such a position is entirely laudable, and indeed respectful so to speak to the music itself.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:27 AM

each to their own,I prefer other versions,although I was enjoying his version until the rap interruption.
I expect the response I got from Ralphie he is primarily an instrumentalist rather than a singer.
as far as I am concerned what famous rappers have to say is of little consequence,any decent ballad singer should be concentrating on singing the story,have a listen to EwanMacColl,orJeannie robertson singning MY SON DAVID,they are singers who really knew their business,and could brioing ballads to life without the need for rap interludes.these songs stand up perfectly well unaccompanied if the singer is a good singer.JimMoray was doing fine until the rapper interfered

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Dave of Mawkin
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM

I'm with Jim Moray on this one. His and Bubbz's interpretation of Lucy Wan actually made me stand up and listen.When Bubbz kicks into his rap, the song comes to life, you actually get the rage, the crazed desire, everything all rolled into a very concise little passage, its wonderful. I cant see how Jim Carroll can draw this conclusion;

// "Didn't find it the slightest bit intereresting..I prefer my ballads with nowt taken out, particularly the plot."//

As ALL the original trad verses are in there!

A famous rapper once said 'you dont need eyes to see, you need vision'...

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Mouldy Bob.
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:15 AM

Who's comparable to Jim Moray in the US?


Vanilla Ice perhaps? Similarly ground breaking yet frowned upon by die hards.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:09 AM

Seems odd that discussion is so centred on the UK.

Who's comparable to Jim Moray in the US? Or in Germany, or France?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

Jim (Carroll), Dick,

I wondered if there is anyone performimg on the UK folk circuit who you do admire? Under the age of say... 45?

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:19 AM

After the recent comments by and about Jim Moray, I followed up with a wee YouTube search for some more of his material - and found this interview. His comments about being a young musician working with old songs in the context of a contemporary British culture, might be pertinant to this thread: Jim Moray interviewed by Paul Morley

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:55 AM

Guest Ian:
"real ale fascism"
Oh please; and when you were doing so well!
Fascism conjurs up for me concentration camps, extermination ovens, BNP hate marches....
It has nothing whatever to do with real ale or folk music, now matter how strong the views on either subject.
I don't go along 100% with your views but I am grateful for your insight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM

Very interesting debate.

I totally agree with Ray Padgett where he reckons the quality of younger musicians has improved over the last 30 years. The taking of folk "roots" into fields where a larger audience will get the chance to listen is something that has always gone on, and always will do.

As a teenager who was in a rock band and at the same time enjoying nights at folk clubs, I was bemused yet pleased to hear Thin Lizzie's Whiskey in the Jar, or Led Zeppelin's Gallow Pole (not to mention Sandy Denny on Battle of Evermore.)

Elvis Costello writes songss about subjects that tick every box for me, (as well as starting out in folk clubs,) and of course, you cannot use music for social comment without being called folk, (Billy Bragg etc.)

So, the future of folk music OR as I suspect many will interpret the question... the future of the folk scene as it has lasted for the last 40 years +.

I was at a party last year, where old friends from over the years turned up. I am touching 50, yet just as when I was a teenager, I was the youngest performer on the night.

That is what is at stake here. The question being, "do you convince people that the "format" of an evening of folk music is part of the culture, or do you bring the music to another way of presenting it?

I don't mean this badly, although it will come over so, I am sure. But the mental image of woolly jumpers, beards, sandals and real ale fascism is an image that prevails outside of folk clubs. Perhaps many people love the music (or would if they heard it) but don't feel part of an existing culture? I have a beard, drink bitter rather than lager and don't mind listening to an office worker singing about how hard it is down the mine... But my son, (an ex miner like myself) would probably record it on his phone and upload it to utube as an example of British eccentricity.

Perhaps a thread about the future of folk music also needs a different thread about the future of British folk delivery over the last 40 odd years. Because like many fine traditions, it may only last as long as those who perpetuate it.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:27 AM

"Stay playing to two old men and a dog in a dingey pub, if you want to.
Ralph"
ralph jordan you appear to be dissing folk clubs,for the record I have never played to two old men and a dog[this sort of stereotyping of folk clubs] does not do yourself or folk music any favours.
Folk clubs are a very important part of the uk folk revival,there are manuy organisers on this forum who run successful folk clubs,Villan,Banjiman,drprice/ dame pattie,david el gnomo,the snail/valmai goodyear,VicSmith,The Admiral and many more whose clubs are not two men and a dogand are not held in dingy pubs.
you sound like you need to get out and see some of them

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Count Arthur Strong
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

Good point, all well made.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM

I will explain why I dont like jim morays inclusion of rap in the middle of lucy wan.
I pointed out that Jims diction was good,but I could not understand what the rapper was saying,so in my opinion it is a pointless exercise,if jim had changed from singing to speaking the song,I am sure I would have understood as Jims diction is good.
I feel that the idea is not necessarily a bad one,but that the rap part was not cdone as well as it could have been.
RALPHIE,I do not care whether Jim Moray is the brother of the king of Timbuctoo,I am explaining why I think this particular experimentation does not work,that does not mean that I am against experimentation.
are you in favour of experimentation for the sake of it regardless of the outcome?.Idid not diss Jim Morays singing although I stated that I preferred Martin Carthys version,that does not mean his singing is bad it is not.
what I think is poor is the inclusion of something[of which the diction is poor]in the middle of an otherwise fairly good version,what is the point?is there any cultural link between the two? if Icant understand the words it becomes just a distraction and one that does not seem to have much musical connectiion,therfore it [imo]makes the song something ridiculous.
"And if I'm accompanying a singer, performing an "old" song (avoiding the Trad/Folk spat) and I decide to put a screaming hammond organ solo in the middle of it, that I am therefore making "a ridiculous interruption"quote Ralph Jordan.
in my opinion if you did what you described in the middle of the outlandish knight it would be a ridiculous interruption because it interferes wtith the flow and the story of the song,in a song such as the streams of lovely nancy ,I do not think it as important.
however you have missed my point,which is why include something the majority of which is indecipherable.,and which appears to me to have no cultural connection.
it is rather like eating jam with caviar,,both are pleasant on their own,but when taken together are a gastronomic catastrophe, admirable for its eccentric qualities but little else.
Ihave geard other perfprmances by JimMoray he is agood singer ,but his version of Lucy Wan [because of the rap] does not work for me.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM

"It always strikes me that whatever experiments are carried out on folksong, in the end it's the Jeannie Robertsons and Harry Cox's who rise to the top long after the diverters are part of our fond memories of a mis-spent youth."

That's as may be for some, Jim. And that's fine. Personally, I think that if someone can make you see a traditional song from a different perspective (as does Jim Moray's Lucy Wan) or breathe new life into the song - which, as I've said previously, I think JM's Lucy Wan does by making the emotion and the violence immediate and real - then it's all good. It may not be to your taste, but there is undeniable artistry, talent and passion in what has been created, and, fundamentally, a grounding in traditional music and song, which for me is key. Jim Moray is no blow-in, who is playing with the tradition because it happens to be a bit fashionable at the moment; he is very serious in his approach to the music, and in wanting to do something interesting and meaningful with it. Even if the outcomes don't really blow your skirt up, surely that's to be applauded.



"It seems to me that this thread is possibly a small sampling of the future of folk music. Strong tradition, diversity, passion, emotion, scholarship, enthusiasm, craftsmanship. This allows for very polarized views to each be 100% correct in where they either draw boundaries or rub them out, and for others to be able to wander about between camps enjoying the crafts proffered...something for everyone."

Well said.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

Deepdoc1, excellent insight. If that is the future then it's going to be an exciting one - and, as JC suggests, plenty of heated debate. I hope I'll be around long enough to do a great deal of wandering between camps.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:14 AM

So I readd a bit more of the above and dodged of to look and listen to JM's Lucy Wan...Interesting.. and so real. It certainly makes me want to fold back my blinkers even more!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Count Arthur Strong
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:01 AM

i would just like to say, that I personally I, agree with everything that Jim Carroll & Dick Miles say.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:55 AM

Sorry,
That should read Harry Coxs - bloody apostrophe.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:53 AM

"What arrogant pomposity."
My thoughts exactly Ralphie.
If it is pompous to express an opinion contrary to the flow - it's a fair cop guv - thought these forums were for airing differences and not a nodding dog display.
I said why I didn't like Jim M's singing of Lucy Wan, contrary to those who have told us little more than what a great singer they believe him to be - if you want to make a point, do so by discussing his singing of the song, not his popularity rating.
And please don't lump me with Dick - as much as I might respect him, there are many points on which we disagree - we may both live in Ireland but we ain't joined at the hip.
On arrogance - I did think Jim M's suggestion that the reason I didn't like his singing was because I wasn't listening, somewhat arrogant - is he really that good or am I really that deaf?
Ruth
It always strikes me that whatever experiments are carried out on folksong, in the end it's the Jeannie Robertsons and Harry Cox's who rise to the top long after the diverters are part of our fond memories of a mis-spent youth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM

I started to read all the above and gave up and just thought I'd throw in my bit, so apologies if it's just repetition.

The Future of Folk is well safe in the hands of the next generation. It's already started just looka round at the wonderful youngsters we see all around us. James Finlay and Dyer Cummings are prime examples. (just use Google)
As for the old stagers not being replaced just look at the likes of Vicki Swan and Johnny Dyer and the songs they are writing, ready made Tradition in my view. Mary and Anahata breath new life into everything they touch.
What is struggling and may well fall by the wayside is the old way of presenting folk music - the Folk Club. I have been involved with running Clubs all my adult life. In the heyday we attracted regular audiences of 100 plus, with standing room only being the norm. Today most clubs are happy with a regular couple of dozen or so. This is not because people don't want the music, I think it has proven that the Folk Clubs have done their job. We kept our music alive when it was very much a minority interest. Now it has been rediscovered and is all around us. You are now very likely to hear Kate Rusby or a bunch of Cornish Shanty men on National Radio or TV. There have been many TV shows about our music, and like it or not our music is a core part of a very popular main stream Sunday night drama.
No I'm not worried about the future, I just want to hang around for another 60 years to enjoy it.
Well you did ask.....

Andy

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: deepdoc1
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:46 AM

It seems to me that this thread is possibly a small sampling of the future of folk music. Strong tradition, diversity, passion, emotion, scholarship, enthusiasm, craftsmanship. This allows for very polarized views to each be 100% correct in where they either draw boundaries or rub them out, and for others to be able to wander about between camps enjoying the crafts proffered...something for everyone.

I think I'll listen to some "Seagulls and Summer People" on the way to work this morning. Nothing like a little Maine humor to bring things back into focus (thanks be to Mr. Kendall Morse!).

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:37 AM

Shimrod, that's not how I interpreted the comments made here. Until your intemperate outburst everyone was having a fairly civilised discussion.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:26 AM

"Anyone has the perfect right to interpret any song in any way they see fit."

Where is anyone disagreeing with that? I can't help noticing that, in these endless debates, the 'let's change everything to sound like contemporary pop music' crowd are always very touchy about their 'experimentation'. Any hint of criticism is interpreted as cruel persecution: "THEY are trying to stop me from doing what I do!"

What childish, sulky, self-serving bollocks!! ANYONE has the perfect right to express an opinion - even if it's not a particularly positive one!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:30 AM

Come on, Dick, you put your own interpretation on songs and you also create your own (and very good they are), so what is wrong with interpretations that push the boundaries a little further than some may find entirely comfortable? Whether you like it or not is just a matter of personal taste but, as was said of the talking dog (sorry, no effence JM), the point is not whether it is done well or not but that it is done at all.

"Sorry Leveller - just a break in the hostilities while the two sides sing carols and have a game of football"

Fair enough, Jim, but I've signed a neutrality pact. I am now, officially, Switzerland (but minus the yodelling).

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM

"Looking back at all the different cul-de-sacs that the revival took, the thing that strikes me is how old fashioned it all sounds now"

I would agree that SOME of it sounds very old-fashioned now - because it was very much of its time in terms of instrumentation and arrangement, and even the equipment that was used to record it. But that's not the case with all of it by a long stretch. I can think of albums that were made around the time I was born that don't sound remotely dated to me.

It is a huge challenge for contemporary musicians, regardless of their genre, to make music that is "timeless". When it comes to the folk revival, I don't think that trying to sound exactly like source singers/musicians is the way forward. Folk rock albums very much sound as if they were of their time, but is that a crime? They were trying to be relevant to people of their own generation, and for the most part it's still people of that generation who listen to the music of Fairport, Steeleye etc. Were they trying to create a timeless sound? I doubt it. They were probably just trying to make music that sounded good to them. And don't forget,that what becomes unfashionable often becomes fashionable again: in 50 years' time, people may re-discover folk rock and think it is absolutely brilliant as a nostalgia music.

All of this, though, stands as a separate entity to traditional music. The most important thing is that it does the tradition no harm at all for people to do the kind of thing Jim Moray does, and for many people he brings a fresh new perspective to the music. That's to be celebrated, surely? One thing you can be certain of is that, even if his work is not to your taste, he brings a respect, knowledge and understanding of the tradition to his music. That's very much his jumping-off point.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM

I'm amazed that Jim Moray, was so restrained in his reply to Mssrs Miles and Carroll.
What arrogant pomposity.
So Dick thinks that Jims voice is pleasing and his diction is good. Oh my.. Praise indeed.
And then he completely disses the arrangement of the song. By who's right I ask?
Anyone has the perfect right to interpret any song in any way they see fit.
Are you saying Dick that I should only play music hall tunes on my duet? Not morris?
And if I'm accompanying a singer, performing an "old" song (avoiding the Trad/Folk spat) and I decide to put a screaming hammond organ solo in the middle of it, that I am therefore making "a ridiculous interruption"
Modern singers and musicians are taking music into other exciting and interesting fields, And selling out huge venues. (Jim and other English performers have just played a huge festival in Austin Texas, Have you?).
The OP posed the question What is the future of Folk Music. My answer is just fine and dandy, with a new crop of singers and musicians coming through. All it needs is the dinosaurs on the scene should get off their backs. If you don't like it, don't listen. Stay playing to two old men and a dog in a dingey pub, if you want to.
Ralph
Oh Yes, Jim Moray is really Doug Oates, brother of Jackie Oates, and has grown up with the music all his life. You could at least do some basic research, before slagging off his work.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:58 AM

Future of folk music? Pretty bleak for me if I don't find my plectrum!

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Dancing Dancer
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:22 PM

I believe folk music is experiencing a rebirth...mainly in the form of UK's Bobby Long. His lyrics are far reaching and actually have meaning unlike most artists his age. Finally there is a musical talent my 12 year old daughter and I can agree on!
www.musicbobbylong.com and www.myspace.com/musicbobbylong have some great examples of his growing body of work.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:09 PM

OK - final post on the subject.

Jim - it wasn't that you said you didn't like the singing. It was that you said I had discarded the plot (and thus totally disregarded the point of the song). One of those things is an opinion that you are entitled to, one is an inaccurate criticism that I am entitled to defend myself from. There's a difference.

Dick - I don't expect praise. But I equally think that derision for coming into the music through a different path to your own is an idiotic thing to say, joke or not.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM

right ,I have listened to it,on the positive side your voice is pleasing and your diction is good.
the accompaniment? imo adds nothing to the song[imo[the rap in the middle makes the song ridiculous]and is just an interruption to an otherwise competent performance .
however I would not attempt to stop you from doing anything,but please dont expect me to praise[what was imo] a ridiculous interruption into what was otherwise a decent but not over whelming version,Iprefer Martin Carthys version but each to their own.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

Jim Moray
Ihave never told anybody they are not allowed to do anything.
I love Jim Carrolls posts,long may he continue.
fortunately I havent heard Jim Morays assault on LUCY WAN, who is Jim Moray anyway?
however as a betting man,Iwould give odds of 4/9 on that Jim Carroll is right.
ruth archer ,if your introduction to folk music was the pogues,id say youwere not properly brought up or introduced.,but still you got there
now, firstly my remark to ruth archer was meant as a joke,I would have thought that was obvious,I have met Ruth Archer and Derek Schofield and I realise they appreciate the same sort of music as myself.
Jim Moray,I will give your version a listen soon,and maybe I will be proved wrong,I do know that Jim and I have similiar tastes in music,but youare quite right I shouldnt pre judge.[however my odds were 4/9 on not 1 to 10000.
Ruth, I totally disagree with you about the pogues,so on that one we will have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:43 PM

Jim M
You are quite within your rights to do whatever you wish with songs - folk or other, but as you do it in public, I, as a member of that public have every right to express an opinion on what you do with them. For me, your approach made no sense whatever in relation to the text - sorry - put me down as a totaly unconvinced listener. A little presumptuous, I thought, of your suggesting that because I didn't like your singing I couldn't have been listening - tsk-tsk. And please don't tell me how I listen to songs. I tried hard to like it - I really did - failed miserably - and the rap bit; well.......!
"I can't recall the traditional singer's name,"
Walter Pardon - who treated the songs that had been handed down to him by his family with respect, and expected the same from others that he gave them to.
"Now we can move on to the future...."
Sorry Leveller - just a break in the hostilities while the two sides sing carols and have a game of football. I think you will find that the question will run much longer than The Moustrap.
What is presented at our clubs under the name 'folk' and how is is performed lies at the heart of everything we do and is certainly the answer to the op's question.
I have no objection whatever to Jim M doing what he does to folk songs - experimentation has always happened. We were rockin' up folk songs in the sixties after chucking out time; never stopped us enjoying the real thing.
Looking back at all the different cul-de-sacs that the revival took, the thing that strikes me is how old fashioned it all sounds now - the singing pullovers, the mini-choirs the electric soup..... all gone, and I'm sure, more tomorrow - if there is a tomorrow for our music.
One thing is for certain; it is the stuff that is being documented and archived as 'folk' which will still be available for future generations to see what a fist they can make of it, long after we've all gone to join the 'choir invisibule'. I also know what the youngsters here in Ireland are doing with the music and how well and sensitively they are doing it - and how well it is being received; surely a lesson for us all?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Sophie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:27 PM

I have to say I am a massive fan of Jims version of lucy wan.
i think it mixes folk with british rap perfectly
As a younger folk lover I was really excited to hear a song like this, where it mixes two genres of music which i listen to on a regular basis.

Just thought i would put a little opinion in there :)

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

"Do you think we just toss out albums in between spraying graffiti on the walls of Cecil Sharp House and urinating on the grave of Sam Larner?"

Following RuthA's post on the Pogue's being an inspiring influence for her, maybe folk could do with a virulent dose of latter-day punk spirit?

I think young folk artists find themselves suspended in limbo. And have to ask themselves "Who am I trying to please?"
Punk of by contrast, never asked that question.

When I'm an old git I'll have writ on my headstone: "Feel free to piss on my grave, if it inspires you!"

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: GUEST,Neville Grundy
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM

"One of the worst examples of bad manners I have witnessed is when a song is sung in a music session and a musician (who may be listening to a song for the first time), insists on joining in." Jim Carroll.

I'm a contemporary singer-guitarist who frequents folk singarounds and sessions, and this sometimes happens to me, even though most of my material is not widely known. I'm quite happy when people do know the song, indeed I sometimes invite them, but in many cases, although they have no chance of knowing or even busking along with it, some will persist anyway. It puts me off my stride and I have on more than one occasion finished a song early as a result, and once ground to a halt - irritating for me and those who were listening.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM

I could not agree more with Jim Moray.

I love traditional music. Really, really do, and am quite happy with the route that took me to the tradition, Dick. I am, as Paul astutely points out, 42 years old. Given the generation that I grew up in and the fact that I did my growing up in America, it's actually rather surprising that I got here at all. After 20-odd years of listening to folk and traditional music at all levels, I still think that what the Pogues did was adventurous, exciting, and original - and bloody great music. It may not be to your taste, but it was incredibly influential and still sounds as fresh now as it did more than 20 years ago.

I'm no expert on British grime music, but from the first time I heard JM's arrangement of Lucy Wan I had chills. As he says, it gives the brother's point of view: self-justifying, adolescent rage; brutal and uncompromising. Sometimes it can be hard to relate to the death and violence in the old ballads - it seems remote and unreal, and at times pretty OTT. JM's Lucy Wan is the opposite.

Subject: RE: What is the future of folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM

"would ask for enlightenment but don't wan't to start another 'what is folk' thread"

Well thanks for that, Jim - that's the Mudcat equivalent of the end of the Cold War. Now we can move on to the future....