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Folksong-when performance/when political rally
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Subject: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:20 AM This is in the folklore category as it pertains to folk performance. Please remove any BS off topic rather than re categorize. When is a folk music performance a performance and when does it become a political rally>? What is a political Rally? A political rally is a group gathered to hear music etc. who all share a political party or point of view. It is not a forum except where there are internal disagreements within the same general point of view. Music performed is not intended so much as art or aesthetic experience but as motivation to act. Go out and vote x, stop the war etc. What is a Folk Concert/Festival? A folk festival./performance is a forum which celebrates music and folklore not as political statement but as a language for expression, discussion and negotiation. Songs are there as art objects, treasures, heritage. Songs present would illustrate a wide range of points of view, cultural outlooks, traditions, values and would not necessarily agree. Slight exceptions would be songs gathered in groups for workshops focusing on one topic or another or a concert by a particular artist. Music becomes therein a language- A folk festival then would be like a festival of german language wherein many people of many points of view are invited to study and appreciate the language using a common language of expression. Political views and cultural views would be diverse. Like faire festivals now common- not one costume but using the language of costume many expressions the more the merrier with an emphasis on diversity. How do you know a folk song performance is a folk song performance? You will know that a folk song performance is not a political rally when people of all varieties of political point of view join in singing. When after the song is over the presenter talks about the following and related topics: Rhyme scheme used in the lyrics, vocabulary used in the lyrics, history of the song, cord progressions used in the melody, history of the melody, background of the presenter, other versions, instruments used....so much to talk about. How do you know a folk song performance is a political rally? Easy! At the end of the song the singer shouts out phrases like: "End the war" and the crowd repeats or "stop the baby killing" and everyone repeats or "civil rights for everyone" and the crowd repeats, or "legalize same sex marriages" and the crowd repeats...or any other type of political view. Or when political literature is distributed. Relevance: I believe imho that folk music benefits most when music and song are projected as languages for expression rather than means to political ends. This does not mean that performers and organizers are not free to utilize folk events as political rally's but that it might be helpful for all concerned to protect open forums for the appreciation of art and literature as folk music certainly is. It does mean that it might be advisable to invest a little time and effort in bringing in the widest spectrum of expression. To include people who have perhaps felt unwelcome in the past. To encourage all sides all points of view to express themselves in artistic works of song and to come and share their works of art of verse and musical notation with the world freely. We have perhaps to do a bit of work to reach out and exclaim that our forums are open. We do not have to do this but some things that are good are things that we none the less might consider working for. So now that I have explained my definitions and have demonstrated why this discussion might be of assistance in helping the world of folk music to grow and expand more efficiently. I seek your opinions. I do not seek BS this is about the folk experience. Thanks!! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally From: Bettynh Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM BS if ever I've seen it. Conrad you've answered your own questions here. Your opinion is decidedly not humble. That said, I can only answer from the USA perspective and understand that you are in Germany. I say go for it! Rent the hall and collect those opposing acts on the same stage or in the same program. Cut them off when they start to shout slogans that are part of the songs. Invite musicologists and linguists to discuss. Since the goal is art, the lack of audience won't matter at all. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:58 PM This is getting ridiculous. Why a carbon-copy thread of the Smothers Brothers Pete Seeger thread? Conrad is establishing his own set of criteria and trying to ascertain that his opinion is fact. WRONG!!!!!! "A folk festival./performance is a forum which celebrates music and folklore not as political statement but as a language for expression, discussion and negotiation. " Who is Conrad to set such a standard? The history of art, literature AND folklore shows that politics ARE a part of the story. For Conrad to advocate CENSORSHIP of such performances is lunacy. Why stop at politics? A folk festival should not be used as an expression for violence or incest, so lets remove all Child Ballads. We should also exclude all work songs since that represents a class system and we do not need such controversy. Let's remove love songs because the songs can be a statement for same sex couples. And lets remove all those foreign songs because nobody knows what they are saying since they aren't speaking good English! I don't want to hear any religous songs, becaue it promotes something I do not believe in. I guess that leaves a couple of instrumentals. Do you not see how stupid this discussion can be? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: frogprince Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:58 PM Same song, 714th verse.... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: VirginiaTam Date: 06 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM what I don't get is why people take the bait. Just don't reply and the thread will die. Simples! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM The thread may die - but it should not die without a statement or two to show that there are two sides to the issue. Don't forget, these threads show up in searches and there is no reason why someone without knowledge of the subject should find an unchallenged post, expecially when the original post is so far from reality. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM The context of performance folks not the song itself. How the song is used not its contents Some uses are different from others No banning advocated or censoring The context of a song peformance. If it is performed for political purposes pirmairly it is a political rally. If it is a political rally rather than a performance it will have limited appeal. It will also discourage others with other points of view It will brand folk music generally Those things are negative factors in regard to the growth of folk music. And you don't have to do anything but one should try a few good things. Conrad Baltimore, Maryland if it matters.... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: Don Firth Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM I do not believe that Conrad has ever been to a folk concert or folk festival because what he is describing simply does not exist. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM You are wrong. Folk can include politics. Folk brands itself - it is the product of a community. No reason why not. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:08 PM Sorry - that "you are wrong" was directed at Conrad, not Don. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM "If it is performed for political purposes pirmairly it is a political rally. If it is a political rally rather than a performance it will have limited appeal. It will also discourage others with other points of view It will brand folk music generally" To anyone reading this thread, bear in mind that those four items are opinions from Conrad. Many others disagree with each of those items. It is not criteria that is recognized to consitute "folk music", nor is it any sort of accepted criteria for performers. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:58 PM didn't say it was! so discuss but read what I have written first. I have never suggested removing political content from songs. I am concerned only with the environment- the intent of performance. By its very nature political use of songs is divisive. If you utilize the same songs as art then you will not loose those for which the political message (a very small aspect of any song) is offensive. If too many songs appear that are used primairly in a political manner then one would discurage others from performing at the venue. If the one sided political performances persist over time the genre as a whole can become branded and will turn people away before they arrive. If one does not get the feeling that musicians are preaching at them or lecturing following the performance indicating that they expect the crowd to take action along the lines the song suggests then we can keep to expression, art a level of interest which has broader appeal. I have been to many folk concerts. I have seen the mayor of baltimore sing IRA songs following them up with anti british chants and black glove salute (he is now governor of Maryland) I have seen women sing women's liberation songs followed up with a few choice words of politics against men etc. Politicization of a folk event is different from playing folk music with a political message and talking about music leaving the political speeches out. Let the songs stand on their own any way as art. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: artbrooks Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:00 PM Would a clone please merge this into the other thread on exactly the same topic. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:03 PM I am waiting for the Art Car references to start. Don |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally From: Bettynh Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM "I have been to many folk concerts. I have seen the mayor of baltimore sing IRA songs following them up with anti british chants and black glove salute (he is now governor of Maryland) I have seen women sing women's liberation songs followed up with a few choice words of politics against men etc." By your own definition, those weren't concerts. When have you attended "a folk song performance ... when people of all varieties of political point of view join in singing. When after the song is over the presenter talks about the following and related topics: Rhyme scheme used in the lyrics, vocabulary used in the lyrics, history of the song, cord progressions used in the melody, history of the melody, background of the presenter, other versions, instruments used....so much to talk about"?. Conrad, it does matter where you are writing from. I can forgive you if you are at a distance and describing a situation I don't know. If you feel you can speak from an American perspective, however, I can say you are wrong and purposefully provocative. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM I cant make up my mind as to wether Conrad IS Purely Provocative , or if he believes some of the things he posts ! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:51 PM inasmuch as the word FOLK lost any semblance of meaning quite a while back, I fail to see the point in all this. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: mousethief Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM In 1968 Hubert Humphrey had an election rally. Tommy James and the Shondells sang "Crimson and Clover". But since it was a political event, it had limited appeal and discouraged other points of view. As a result, it branded 1960s pop music generally. And in less than 3 years, there was no more 1960s pop music, except in recorded form. Chillingly, nobody has made 1960s pop music since (with the possible exception of Smash Mouth). I think we should all take heed. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM Perhaps Dick -this is the problem. So few people wish to return FOLK that it is causing worry when it is suggested. You are right bettynh in my definition it became a political rally. But they called it an Irish Folk Festival. Therein is the problem. The same songs could have been sung at a festival but without the rhetoric and the implication that the songs were there for political purposes rather that for purposes of entertainment, analysis and folklore. No problem with the songs it is the environment. Thnks mousthief that was most enlightening {:) Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Folksong-performance/politcal rally when From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:30 PM This thread is totally different from the seeger smothers thread. No need to mention them here. This thread applies to all performance situations and is general. I hope the BS level will go away. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:56 PM I've heard criticism of US folk music, people saying that it it too much political and too little traditional. These people prefer UK folk music, which, they say, is truer to tradition (guess they'd never heard of Ewan MacColl). I really like political music, but much of it is topical and ephemeral. It may be stirring and relevant today, but a museum artifact next year. The songs about Lyndon Johnson and Dickie Nixon and Jimmy Carter just don't speak to people anymore - but they sure were good when the topic was hot. Tom Paxton is a master of topical song, and he has written many, many songs that are no longer relevant. Nonetheless, I'm glad that he dusts them off every once in a while and sings them. And many of Paxton's songs are timeless, and others cyclical - they may have seemed dead at one time, but history has a nasty habit of repeating itself. MacColl covered both sides of the discussion. He (and Peggy Seeger) did wonderful work on truly traditional songs, but he also wrote and performed many topical, political songs. For that matter, Pete Seeger did the same thing - but I didn't know much about his work on truly traditional music until Folkways brought out the American Favorite Ballads CDs and introduced me to a whole body of Pete Seeger's traditional work I had barely known about. How do you know when it's a performance? - when the performer has a table out for selling CDs. How do you know when it's a political rally? - when people have ironing boards for taking petition signatures.... Am I right, or am I right? Right, Joe... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:08 PM Sounds good. I prefer performance. But who buys cds any more....I am amazed that so many bristle at the idea of singing both sides of an issue. Songs are songs. They are the language of a political position not the position itself. Paxton is a great example. One can not possibly agree with each and every song. So many of them so many topics. Yet. His construction of lyrics and matching them to tunes will take over and make you forget what the song is about. You just end up with a grin and tired foot for tapping too much. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:59 PM There's something to that, Conrad. Paxton usually has a delightful touch of humor in his political songs, and that's very effective. Even if you disagree with him, how can you help but laugh? Besides that, Paxton is never totally partisan - he can lead you to laugh at both sides of almost every issue. I have to say that MacColl was rarely humorous, and that made him seem strident at times. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: mousethief Date: 06 Apr 10 - 09:05 PM I prefer CDs. People who think it's a good idea to have their entire music collection on a hard drive have never had one fail. Ditto for iPods. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Don Firth Date: 06 Apr 10 - 10:41 PM "But who buys cds any more...." Lots of people, Conrad. "I am amazed that so many bristle at the idea of singing both sides of an issue." I am amazed that you are amazed. If I don't believe in a particular issue, especially if I see that it will lead to some really bad things, it would be a violation of my personal integrity in addition to being totally hypocritical of me to speak out—or sing out—in favor of it. At the same time, those with whom I share that belief would be mystified if I did that, and I would not blame them for writing me off as a traitor. I know politicians who talk out of the both sides of their mouth. I don't vote for them. "Songs are songs." Songs can be considerably more than just songs. They can tell a story, as ballads do; they express emotions, as love songs do; they can be funny; they can lull a child to sleep—or they can rouse people to rebellion. "The Marseilles," (currently the French national anthem) is a very rousing song. And during the French Revolution, it was a strong agent in stirring up people's anger and inspiring them to rise up against the aristocracy. The storming of the Bastille (regarded by the French as their version of Independence Day) was accompanied by the crowd singing "The Marseilles," and this powerful, stirring song was the leitmotif of major change, not just in France, but all over Europe—and America! It toppled the French monarchy (which, in itself had a domino effect), turfed out the aristocracy, and put "Madame Guillotine" to work throughout what is now known as "the Reign of Terror." Even now, upon hearing the song, it's easy to see how it stirred vast numbers of people to action. The words alone can give you an idea. But the words and music combined are powerful. [English transliteration of the French] Arise children of the fatherlandWhew!! There are a whole batch of powerful union songs that inspired action during the 1920s and 1930s. They don't get sung much anymore, but for inspiration purposes, they were very effective. You can thank these songs for helping to bring about the forty-hour week, time-and-a-half for overtime, and an end to child labor. And going further back: Giuseppe Verdi's opera Nabucco contains a chorus—Va pensiero—or "The Hymn of the Hebrew Slaves." This reflected the feelings of many Italians at the time, as Italy was under the thumb of the Austro-Hungarian empire, and the chorus is said to have played a part in Italy's subsequent independence. The story is told of a crowd of over a thousand people in the city square (Rome? Naples? Not sure which city) spontaneously bursting into singing this chorus to register their protest. Heavy stuff!! Never ever make the mistake of thinking that songs are only songs. The combination of words and music often has much greater power than speech alone. History has demonstrated this time and time again. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:46 AM Don- read a few posts above. Its like a channel. The call to arms or political message is just one channel of many running through a folk song. We can turn on and off any channel we wish as we listen to a song. To focus on the power of the politics is to discount the value of a song's other artistic dimensions as a work of art. A song is powerful not because of its political message but because of the art of the composition of the lyrics and the fit of those lyrics to a well crafted rousing tune and then there is the performance. You must also look at songs of solidarity as pieces of a sports game. There is always a looser. Their songs are still good songs but they get lost and forgotten. Folklorists have then to find them again a very wasteful process. Just because people hold a grudge or dont agree with the message (which is easy to do as someone somewhere in todays society doesnt like any given thing at any given time) the artworks of great artists suffer. Not playing a song just because you don't agree with it is sort of like burning the books in the middle ages or cromwell's defacing of beautiful sculptures. It is no different in music. The way to get yourself around this hang up is to play the songs in an artistic setting rather than a political setting. Describe the song, give its history, talk about the traditions involved in its construction, talk about earlier performances and its importance in history. You don't have to say anything about like or dislike- ask the crowd to determine that for themselves. Years ago I did a lot of hard work to rescue the songs of the Protestant, unionist, loylist, orange traditions from oblivion. I encouraged a friend in Belfast to market cds on his web pages. He was a historian and doubted the value of the effort. A few days after the site was launched he could not believe the market for the musical tradition that no one had access to because some people happened to be on the other side of the issues. Let the music stand on its own as art. No need to trash anyone's tradition and hard work. Remember. Some day a side opposite to yours might triumph (not that I want it to) How would you like them to treat the songs you love>? Do unto others as.... Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Bettynh Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:33 AM "You will know that a folk song performance is not a political rally when people of all varieties of political point of view join in singing. When after the song is over the presenter talks about the following and related topics: Rhyme scheme used in the lyrics, vocabulary used in the lyrics, history of the song, cord progressions used in the melody, history of the melody, background of the presenter, other versions, instruments used....so much to talk about." I've been trying to imagine this. I can think of a few precedents: Leonard Bernstein's childrenss' concerts, Dave van Ronk's last concert, Utah Phillips' recorded songbook, Doc Watson and David Holt's 3-disc recording. None of them presented opposite points of view, all were very personal, but they did have the music-discussion format. Usually, the discussion preceded the music. Even the radio ballads sorta did this. But I can't imagine this as a routine thing, and I wouldn't call them concerts. I can imagine a radio series/podcasts though. If the opposing groups tend to be confrontational, editing might come in handy. Please don't give up on folk festivals. I've learned a lot at the few I've attended, mostly by wandering into something completely unfamiliar. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 11:11 AM Festivals are good. My opinion is that like the state fair- If when you go to the state or county fair in USA and you cant find the animals and the 4 h canning and craft competition areas it is too commercial Same with folk festivals. If you can only see a sea of crafters and food booths then balance is off. Another thing to look for in a festival is a band that does not plan to flee the scene after its gig but hangs out throught the day just as the rest of the volunteers try to do. You don't have to say anything to perform a song- It is helpful and inspiring but if you have to say something simply keep it to the music. yes I remember seeing Utah Pyhillips while I was in school in Knoxville great informed performer. Opposing points of view are not as essential when you address the music and not the politics however we should always try to find and encourage others who might feel turned away we dont have to but we have to get out of the narrow view and do a little reverse discrimination and go out and encourage. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Apr 10 - 11:22 AM What if the politics is part of the music or performance? As it often is with Leon Rosselson or Roy Bailey for instance? Sorry - don't know the US equivelants. Surely the politics are as part of some music as are the lyrics, tune and performance? I don't think there can be such a narrow dividing line between the two as it becomes blurred in many cases. I must say that while I do agree that politcal songs of most persuasions should be preserved, that should be tempered with a sensitivity that would stop anyone performing them inappropriately. And there are some songs, those that incite hatred of other people for instance, that will always be inappropriate! Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:15 PM I think appropriateness of songs is to be judged by the nature of the context of presentation. If you do not intend to incite hatred songs will not do that. Its sort of like songs plus attitude and preaching is bad songs just sung harmless. When a song is presented as art as music and lyric- abstractly it should be appropriate. The difficulty comes when the artist performs a song then includes an introduction and conclusion statement which incites people to action. You need not say anything just play the song or you can talk about the song as music or art- then it would be just that music or art. If on the other hand you wish not to have a concert or open festival you may sing the song at a political rally where you can use it to incite behavior and if violent behavior is incited in that context it is bad. While many causes are good in my view the only way to avoid politicization of the venues, media and festivals is to encourage the context of presentation be that of art and not politics. That helps us be more inclusive yet not guilty of preaching or inciting action. This shoiuld apply imho to all sides of any discussion. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Stringsinger Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM Conrad makes a very simplistic case for his views. It is virtually impossible to separate an artist from his/her political views. A political rally and a concert are sometimes indistinguishable. There are many traditional folksongs that could be interpreted as "hate" songs but I don't think this can be ascribed to Pete Seeger. There are songs critical of current social issues but these don't necessarily reflect a distinct political platform. I think that's specious reasoning. If inclusivity involves the avoidance of topical songs or personal social statements then this is an oxymoron. This is not inclusivity but avoidance. The idea that the artist shouldn't offend someone's viewpoint in the audience is not inclusive. It's patronizing. The dissection of art from political or social issues is silly. Picasso's "Guernica" is all that needs to be seen to belie this view. Pete Seeger has never incited violent behavior. The songs of the Civil Rights Movement were effective as much as for their art then their political statements. Chopin's "Revolutionary Etude" was a musical political statement as was Beethoven's music at times. This in no way degraded their artistic contributions. Once again, someone without any convictions may desire a pseudo-open-mindedness but this is not in the realm of art which requires passion and persuasion. Once again, holding conflicting ideas does not reflect integrity. The great songs of Utah Phillips and Woody Guthrie reflect a decided approach to social issues. Neither pulled any punches and it did not detract from the art or their fans. I say the song is powerful because of the art of construction and at times its political or social intent. "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?" is a remarkable example of a lovely melody wedded to a specific point-of-view about a social issue. "Waste Deep In the Big Muddy" was banned from TV because of the conservative attitudes of the executives who certainly exercised their political clout and unapologetically at that. The idea that one must avoid stepping on the toes of an audience by self-censorship is really denigrating the role of the artist in any society. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Stringsinger Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM As a followup, songs of the American Civil War for example are political statements as most of the songs of the First and Second World Wars. In the Southern U.S., songs of the Confederacy are used as political statements with underpinnings of racism. I think that "The Unreconstructed Rebel" can be sung in a context where the intent of the song (anti-U.S.) doesn't reflect the views of the singer. But it can be used as a political or social weapon as was the song "Dixie" which was stolen from Daniel Emmett by a New Orleans publisher. It however, remains a good song which was re-interpreted by the Confederate South which would have dismayed the composer who was pro-Northern. This is all to say that you just can't separate a song from it's political or social intent or content otherwise you have a piece of bloodless and inane material. If you research the background of songs you can find a connection to a social issue which some would interpret as being "too political". This is true of Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit" as it is of a great many folksongs in the U.S. coming out of historical and social events. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Don Firth Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:58 PM Pardon me, Conrad, but when you start lecturing me on music, my eyes tend to glaze over. I've been studying music all my life. I spent some three years at the University of Washington School of Music and another two years at the Cornish College of the Arts (a conservatory). I have been teaching music (both privately and in classes) since the middle to late 1950s. I have also devoted the past fifty-eight years (longer than you have been alive) to the study of folk music. And during that time, I have performed in concerts, on television (including educational television), in clubs and coffeehouses, and at many folk festivals. You have said nothing to indicate that you have any in-depth knowledge of music—certainly no more than someone who has never taken any music lessons and maybe learned to play a guitar out of a copy of "Guckert's Chords for Guitar without Notes or Teacher" (and yes, there is such a book). And you have also revealed repeatedly in this and other threads that your knowledge of folk music and what it is all about is next to non-existent. Nor do you display any awareness of the effect that music can have—and does have—subliminally. And that includes both music with and without words. In short, instead of trying to tell people what they must do and generally set policies, you should be reading, listening, and trying to learn. You're not the first neophyte to try to tell those who have devoted their lives to a particular thing how they're doing it all wrong. And, of course, you won't be the last. Statements like "Not playing a song just because you don't agree with it is sort of like burning the books in the middle ages or cromwell's defacing of beautiful sculptures. It is no different in music." demonstrate not only a painful naivety, but a failure to grasp simple logic. If I chose not to sing a song because I don't agree with its message, I am not destroying the song (a la burning books or defacing statues), I am simply not singing the song. I have a fairly large repertoire, but there are many songs I don't sing. I don't sing some of them because I disagree with there message, or because the song simply does not appeal to me for one reason or another—or because I haven't even heard it! I do not sing popular songs, rock, rap, Broadway show tunes, Schubert lied, operatic arias, or songs in Urdu. And I do not yodel! One can't sing everything. One must make choices. This does not mean that I am destroying those songs. The songs still exist, and they are there for others to sing, if they choose to. Think! If I chose not to read a particular book, that is not the same as burning it! The book is still there for others to read if they wish. So you may as well just get off that bus now, Conrad, because it's going nowhere! Here's a suggestion: Get a copy of This is Your Brain on Music : The Science of a Human Obsession, by David J. Leviton – HERE – and read it carefully. In fact, I would suggest that anyone who sings and/or plays music—or, for that matter, listens to music—should read this book. ### Conrad, in the reunion concert that Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I did together in 2007, the program was almost entirely non-political—except for one pair of songs in the second half of the concert. With no comment or introductions at all, I sang Eric Bogle's The Green Fields of France. When I finished, I set my guitar aside while Bob began Tom Paxton's My Son John. [This was the only example I could find on YouTube. Bob's rendition was considerably smoother.]. We made no comment, because the songs said what it was we wanted to say. Get the point? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Bettynh Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:36 PM We all speak from our own experience, Conrad. Is it safe to infer that a) you have studied and enjoy a form of music that has been deemed politically incorrect by an audience or fellow performer and b) you are trying to imagine a setting where you wouldn't be booed off the stage? You really put your foot in it when you dragged up history you didn't understand and you haven't been forgiven yet. Sometimes bad things happen and we can imagine better ways. Understanding your language is a problem. Does "I think appropriateness of songs is to be judged by the nature of the context of presentation. If you do not intend to incite hatred songs will not do that." mean "I just liked the song and they got all political on me"? |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:56 PM subliminally yes of course we all follow the direction of the evil songs LOL |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:00 PM sometimes after a long lifetime of doing things one might just come to the realization that one may be on the wrong track. if you were all right why is it so hard to find folk music within walking distance of my place-why arent folk music venues on every corner. Why dont the local children and their parents for that matter know any folk music.... aha yes because you have got it right. Nothing wrong with your good work which I do respect but you really need to look at songs more as art No I am not telling anyone what to do. Just asking that you think outside the comfort zone of the past 50 years. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:11 PM Ok my musical background, yes many people have more of a musical background than I do, It has nothing to do with the points made but here it goes. 1. Grew up in a musical household where music was ever present via recordings multiple genres including folk music, classical, modern. (pete seeger was banned as he was a lefty-I regret that he had so branded himself as to be excluded...) 2. Choir elementary until middle school. Church music 3. Around fourth grade piano till middle school where I took up french horn. 4. Studied classical french horn in london england in the 60s. 5. French horn throughout high school into freshman year of college both marching band tradition and classical. 6. Studied Irish traditional music at University of Md. Munich Campus as well as Celtic Studies. Started on tin whistle. 7. Learned tin whistle from native of donnegal at Durham University UK whilst learning newcastle and geordie music via sessions in working mens clubs and in the terrace pubs of the Toon. (I learned by watching therfore hand position is reversed) 8. Graduate school U of tennessee knoxville. Played in a country/uk music trio and lots of sessions locally.....tin whistle, bones I have played professionally tin whistle, bones over the past 30 years or so off and on while teaching in Irish Studies/Irish Folk music, storytelling.... About the only bluegrass tin whistle player I know of. Invented the horn hat and currently the horn coat and jacket and am exploring seriously musical arrangements for these. Publications in Folk Music....several. And what has that to do with a few simple observations?> Not much at all. Anyone can see that if you only play songs you dont like or believe in some songs will suffer. Anyone can see that when one places too much emphasis on politics people will either brand the tradition or be offended. If you think songs make people do bad things as sort of incantations and curses...well you are being silly. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM Ah yes.......ART! The wonderful form of rhyme and meter......Songs are only hurtful or incite violence if sung to incite hatred or violence. What a fuckin' crock of shit. So Conrad......Hop into one of your "Artcars" and go down to The Yard and setup out front to entertain the folks. Sing some baseball stuff if you want like "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" or "The Earl of Baltimore" or "Willie, Mickey, and The Duke." Then throw in some happy little ditties and then this wonderful piece of art: Now listen, you communists and niggers and Jews Tell all your buddies to spread the news Your Day of Judgment will soon be nigh As the Lord in his wisdom looks down from on high Will his battle be lost by mixin' the races? We want beautiful babies, not ones with brown faces Never, never, never, I say For the Ku Klux Klan is here to stay Never, never, never, I say For the Ku Klux Klan is here to stay Let us know how it goes for you. Enjoy yourself and your "art."{ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Stringsinger Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:58 PM Conrad, did you know that church music is political propaganda? Pete didn't brand himself to be excluded. That's just not true. Who holds the branding iron? |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM Conrad, I happen to think you are right about one important item - it IS important to preserve songs of opposing opinions. Just as Spaw used a KKK song to teach a point, there is a need to preserve these songs for historical and educational purposes. Spaw did not share (or sing) the song because of enjoyment. Yet, there is a HUGE difference on performing these songs for entertainment and education. You seem to be flip flopping on your intent in this, and the Seeger/Smothers thread. Context is the key, and you cloud the argument by mixing education and entertainment. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Bettynh Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:40 PM "why is it so hard to find folk music within walking distance of my place-why arent folk music venues on every corner. Why dont the local children and their parents for that matter know any folk music...." I don't know where you live, but have you ever taken that whistle out to the front steps and just played a bit? If you live in the city, you might attract some kids, and they'd at least have heard your tunes. Or not, but you would have created a music venue on your corner. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM "why is it so hard to find folk music within walking distance of my place-why arent folk music venues on every corner." Perhaps you are looking in the wrong places. Folk music doesn't come from a "venue", it comes from the street corners and within walking distance - you just do not recognize it. The only thing you will get in a venue is a performance. "Why dont the local children and their parents for that matter know any folk music...." They do. You are placing expecations about what it should be and not seeing the folk music they are sharing. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Don Firth Date: 07 Apr 10 - 08:25 PM Conrad, you're being disingenuous (there are stronger, more precise words, but I'll stick with that). The fact that you can't find a folk music venue on every corner does not mean that we who have been at it most of our fairly lengthy lives have been doing it all wrong. Folk music, as a genre, never has been that popular, even during the "Great Folk Scare" of the 1960s. Prior to that, most of what you heard on the radio and on the juke boxes was whatever was regarded as "popular" at the time, generally products of "Tin Pan Alley," Broadway, and the movies, along with the occasional radio station that played some classical music from time to time. Even during the 1960s, you could not find "a folk music venue on every corner." Usually in cities of some size and in the vicinity of a local college campus one might find a few coffeehouses where one could hear folk music—generally varying widely in quality of performance, from quite professional sounding singers to kids who knew three guitar chords and six songs. During this period, Seattle (a city of roughly 500,000 at the time, with two fairly large universities) had some four coffeehouses that featured singers of folk songs, and a couple of others where jazz was the entertainment of choice. None of these were "basket houses" where one sang for tips. The owners all paid fairly well (although not up to what might be earned in a night club), and regularly. Two of them in particular were quite nice (your elbows didn't stick to the tables), and were more like non-alcoholic night clubs. And they were full-up on weekend evenings. And not just with "folkies." Some of us who sang in these coffeehouses would be approached to sing concerts at the nearby colleges, or at private affairs—or at arts festivals or other such events. On a couple of occasions during this time, I was asked to appear on television shows. The so-called "folk music revival" of the 1960s ran its course like all such popular music fads, and was replaced in the mid-1960s by what is sometimes referred to as "the British Invasion": the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Petula Clark, Gary and the Pacemakers, Lulu, et al. This, in turn, was replaced by the next pop music fad. Then the next. And the next. But all this time, both before and since, there has been an undercurrent of interest in folk music. I got interested in and began singing folk songs at a time when if you mentioned "folk music," most people thought you were talking about Country and Western, or "Modern Western Swing," such as what the Sons of the Pioneers sang. A few people had heard of Burl Ives. Looking back on it, I often think that although I made a good living during the "Great Folk Scare," in the long run, the kind of singing career I had envisioned for myself in the mid-1950s, was not especially helped by it. One might say that after several years of The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, and God knows who all else, the general public was "all folked out!" Something fresh, like the Beatles, was a welcome relief. Now, if I mention to someone that I sing folk songs, they often say, "Oh! You mean like Bob Dylan?" No. Not like Bob Dylan. More like Richard Dyer-Bennet. Or Ed McCurdy. Or, for that matter, Burl Ives (minus the "Little White Duck" stuff), although my voice is more like McCurdy's than either of the other two. Now, "folk singers" (or people who write their own songs and call them "folk songs") are a dime a dozen. No, Conrad, I don't think a folk music venue on every corner is necessarily a good thing. However, I believe the house concert is an excellent venue, and certainly in keeping with both the traditions of home-grown music-making—and the traditions of minstrels and troubadours, who, more often than not, sang in private venues. By the way, this coming weekend, I have my choice of about four places here in Seattle where I can go to hear folk music. But I don't accept the idea that because you can't find a folk music venue on every corner is necessarily because we have been doing it all wrong. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:10 PM it is because you have been doing something major wrong...ok then what is your solution? Every time I have encountered a house concert it has been a secretive elitist setup where hosts demand money. I have been to many. Sometimes they wonder how it was that me a peasant with no money got in. Concerts are bad elitist house concerts are worse. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:19 PM I play regularly whereeveer I am . At festivals I am found outside the restrooms where the lines cheer as they are glad to find music while they wait. I play on the corners, I play in home depot parking lots.....I have interoduced the local kids to folk music,,,,,I play bbc mkie harding sunday folk and folkwayves out for anyone walking by. And due to the way folk music has been conducted for some reason it is all new to them. So we need change and drastic change. people are hungry for it but folk musicians persist in making big mistakes some of which I have been pointing out. unlike some professional folkies I play free all the time anywhere and dont immediately leave festivals. These days I am also working on horn hattery. Not just to clown around but as a real genre. Also suit jacket and coat hornery. Horn calls from the mind these days but last year I came close to harmonizing with an accordian player. Volunteers welcome. But we cant go on with the same old thoughts as I have seen rear their good but ugly heads here. We have to create an open environment and let people have communication via song without getting in the way. All songs, any songs are art. Enough said. No censorship needed lest someday your favorites are censored. No politicking. Yes songs with politics in them. But no politicking. Seems a welcoming environment to me. It takes courage for a performer to say- "I dont agree with the song but Its great anyway and I'm playing it" Honor the art. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: dick greenhaus Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:44 PM Conrad- virtually all the house concerts, including the ones that Susan and I present, solicit contributions----all of which go to the performer. "Every time I have encountered a house concert it has been a secretive elitist setup where hosts demand money. " I guess this would be true if it were elitist and secretive to try to offer folks a chance to hear some of the not-necessarily-well-known performers. It's a format that I---and most performers--prefer to formal stages----or even street corners. |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:56 PM The ones in DC that I have attended about 60 have all been elitist insider knowledge events. Not everyone knows that they occur. When I get there folks are surprised that I have no money just a rabid interest in music. I guess its how one treats those who just like the music and havent any money. Then it is an alternative forum. Also I would like to see a sign at the concert. Follow us to the house concert at x. address. I am not yet convinced that house concerts are an alternative to the commercial concert scene but just another set of ringers to obtain more money. and I have been to loads of these. My problem is that I am never PC hardly dress, rarely bathe, have no money....I guess for non peasants it is easier. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM Also- I open my house several times a year. No charge. People come, celebrate, play music, listen to music, donate food and drink. Sometimes we get something like 125 other times 40. (google center for fawkesian pursuits) We dont have to have port o pots, sound engineers, concessions we just do it. (almost 31 years now) My wife won't let me pass the hat or have a donation bucket. People bring food and drink and turn up with friends. These things can be done. Part of our tradition going way back. As in church suppers, barn raisings.....everyone sings. Everyone enjoys. New people are converted. Always! Two years ago I saw the benefit in all this. About 20 college students friends of my daughter had never heard folk music in their lives went away with stars in their eyes - converts. Does not get any better than that. I remember attending a chieftains concert with alan jabour we were the only ones tapping our feet.....the rest were elitist high culture students of culture- loads of money but not on the same level. We went on to play music all night they went home to bed. Generally the artist has just done a concert. Its just double dipping. I would put the artist up for the night as an exchange. Feed hem maybe pass the hat but dont get agressive as I have found most hosts here to be... We have to make some events non gated to freely expand the music. Where possible. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:10 PM A long while back I went to the old Chicago Stadium to see the Black Hawks play the national team from the USSR. I expected to see a hockey game; that and only that. By the time the game ended, I felt like I'd just witnessed a major battle of the Cold War play out on a sheet of ice. For the crowd in attendance that night, the game became a political rally of a sort---and it completely lost any sportsmanship aspect it might've possessed. We left feeling depressed by the raucous turn of events. I'm not sure if what I'm remembering is worth mentioning here, but there it is---for what it's worth. Art |
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Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally From: Don Firth Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:19 PM Following on with what Ron Olesko and Bettynh said just above, in Seattle, if I go down to the Pike Place Market, one of Seattle's icons and major tourist attractions along with the Space Needle and the monorail, one can hear a whole variety of street singers and buskers. Practically any time of any day, but particularly on sunny weekends, the place is full of buskers. These photos were all taken at the Pike Place Market: Thomas Hubbbard. Mariide. Dunno who this is. Charlotte Thistle. All sizes, shapes, and varieties: CLICKY. All of these photos were taken at the Pike Place Market, and there are dozens more. If you stand and listen to someone for more than just a song or two, it's customary to drop a few coins or a bill into their hat or open instrument case. This is in keeping with the centuries-old tradition of wandering musicians performing in the village square. It is an ancient and honorable occupation. And we must not forget this fellow. Since I have never been asked by anyone if they could join me on stage or in front of a mic or television camera, I've never had an opportunity to refuse ("censor") them. So—you're going to have to explain to me, in detail, just exactly what I've been doing wrong all this time that has—in your estimation—killed folk music. And "something" isn't an answer! "Secretive elitist setup." House concerts are generally advertised a variety of ways, including on an internet web page. Usually it's necessary for people to make reservations so 500 people don't show up all wanting to crowd into a living room that will seat a maximum of thirty people. And as Dick says, it's customary for people to make a donation to pay the performer (who may have traveling and lodging expenses that they have to cover, otherwise they wouldn't be able to come and do the house concert). Not "secretive" or "elitist" at all. I think I'm beginning to get a glimmer of just exactly what your problem is. And it has nothing to do with what other people may be "doing wrong." Don Firth |
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