Folksong-when performance/when political rally

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 07:59 PM

Some decades back, I had a very good friend named Ric Higlin, He was an artist. At least people who saw his work (me included) thought of him as an artist. He painted in various media, drew and sketch very skillfully, and he was quite a good sculptor. Many knowledgeable people bought his works, sometimes for fairly respectable amounts of money.

He could do all kinds of abstractions. And at the same time, he was prodigiously skilled, to the point where, if he wished, he could draw or paint a portrait that was almost a photographic likeness. And any and all points between, including outrageously funny cartoons and caracatures. He had essentially complete control over whatever media he chose.

No matter how abstract or realistic, Ric's works were not "accidents."

When people would ask Ric what he did, he would respond, "I am a painter." Sometimes a bit flummoxed, not knowing if he might be a house painter or sign painter, they would ask, "What sort of things do you paint?"

"Pictures," Ric would respond.

"Oh!" they would say, "then you are an artist?"

"Well," responded Ric, "that's not for me to say. I paint pictures. If people look at something I've done and declare it to be 'art,' that pleases me very much. But whether or not I am an 'artist' is not for me to judge."

I always had a great deal of respect for Ric Higlin.

In terms that would be understood by readers of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I'd say that Ric knew where his towel was.

Don Firth

P. S. A quote from Douglas Adams that may be germaine to this discussion:

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM

Art Brut:

"Named after French painter Jean Dubuffet's definition of outsider art -- art by prisoners, loners, the mentally ill, and other marginalized people, and made without thought to imitation or presentation. . . ."

Okey dokey. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM

My position on art exactly. I put things together in a way that pleases me. I never called myself an artist until people came up and told me that I had created art.

I started out by covering a car with bumper stickers. A response to children vandalizing my broken down car with a sticker. I did not scold them I just got even by adding a few of my own. The car was repaired and it went through several phases or concepts eventually being invited to appear at large local art shows.

I have always been driven by the effect of my work upon others. Generally I am working alone in my home office still sort of taking care of my child which I have had responsibility for for almost 21 years. As I created art people stopped by and talked, they smiled and complemented me I moved on to do more and more with it.

I drive my art daily as we have no plain cars at all. After driving art one is so impressed with the change in the world it accomplishes that one would never go back to plain.

My goal is not self promotion but convincing others to exercise their freedom and drive art. That is my message when I park on exhibit at schools and festivals. Other cartists have criticized me for this- what if everyone did it we would not be special? I never wanted to be special just to help people discover the wonder of it all.

I have taken the same path with music and costume art and my art environment. I do it as a lifeway. My particular path I encourage others to spend some time on it from time to time but there are many equally good paths out there. Politics creeps into the artcar world from time to time. The houston orange show parade where I won first prize in my daily driver category, has a good number of political entries each year. The politics is so one sided on the left or liberal end that I don't think anyone from the right or conservative side would dare to enter. That hostility is the problem. I would rather have balanced politics at such events or none at all.

I dont like art events to become taken over by politics of one side. When there is not effort to avoid this the politicos just get a free rally!
At least a good effort should be made to make others welcome, perhaps contacting groups with opposing views perhaps sharing of slots for political entries more evenly.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:45 PM

"Are you going to stop singing any catholic song, irish catholic songs, hymns from the catholic church, ave maria etc.....now that the word is out that internationally and as a trend the church has condoned and covered up child molestation?

The Jewish people in Jerusalem stoned to death St. Stephen the first martyr of the church. Not exactly a moral act in your book....Shall we all eliminate jewish songs and music."


Conrad, no one - other than yourself - has asked for eliminate of ANY song. There is a huge difference between "singing" as a means of entertainment and personal expression and the study of history.

Your analogy about the Catholic Church and the Jewish religion makes very little sense.   Show me songs that promote the crimes that you mention? Those crimes are not representative of the goals and teaching of either culture.   It would be like saying we won't sing German songs because of what the Nazi's have done.

NO one is promoting banning. There are appropriate places for the study and collection and there are improper use of these tools.

You are completely playing spin doctor here and trying to twist analogies and philosophies. It is not working. Face it, you have no one buying your brand of B.S.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:43 PM

Some songs are made unwelcome and that is not right.
Songs should be presented in an environment where they can be viewed as art without being extended by political statements. No group no matter what people think of them should be made welcome and where necessary affirmitive action should be taken to make sure the imbalnces of the past do not occur. Active recruitment of a wide range of musicians and songs should be pursued.

In a recent radio program on the bbc it was recognized thoroughly that the folk music movement of the 60s and 50s was co opted (I believe that was the term) by the liberal left. This has to be undone or at least actions should be taken to make sure that this perception is destroyed. No you don't have to but it would be a good idea to keep the folk music world as open politically to differences as it is to different cultures.
After all go back far enough in any culture and you will find something that distresses you. If we can have cultural diversity represented by flawed humans we can have political diversity as well.

The reaction of the far right to the dominance of folk music by the left and liberal is obviously justifed. If this dominance did not exist then these people would be inside the forum working together rather than feeling locked out by a monopoly. Some cause for the atmosphere of dissent can be found within the folk community.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM

"Some songs are made unwelcome and that is not right."
You keep making statments like this. Please give an example.

"Songs should be presented in an environment where they can be viewed as art without being extended by political statements."
Why??? You make this sound as this is the only way songs should be presented. You completely miss the history and reason for the songs existence.

"In a recent radio program on the bbc it was recognized thoroughly that the folk music movement of the 60s and 50s was co opted (I believe that was the term) by the liberal left."
IF that is the case - so what? IF you look at folk music from the perspective of an ethnomusicologist, the music exists to suit the purposes of the community. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE WAY A CULTURE DEVELOPS THEIR MUSIC. Simple fact.   You play ignorant to the fact that the folk revival had roots in a conservative movement, and the fact that it evolved with a liberal bent is merely the reaction of the culture and the times.   YOU CANNOT CHANGE HISTORY.

"it would be a good idea to keep the folk music world as open politically to differences as it is to different cultures."
You fail to recognize that folk music DOES recognize different cultures. Perhaps it is time for YOU to realize that there are different cultures that do not think the way they do, and you cannot alter their music.

"After all go back far enough in any culture and you will find something that distresses you. If we can have cultural diversity represented by flawed humans we can have political diversity as well."
There you go again - twisting reality for your own purpose.   Of course you will find something that distresses you in any culture! There is political diversity.

The biggest mistake in your entire way of thinking is that you fail to recognize that PROTEST music is about PROTESTING. In order to PROTEST, you have got to have a reason. IF you have a reason, then you already have an opposing opinion. You entire argument crumbles on the fact that you fail to recognize the folk music community arose because of the very repression of ideas and cultural diversity that you are attempting to claim they now ignore. That is pure bullshit. If you have an opinion, put it in song. If people do not support it, that is not the fault of the culture - IT IS THE CULTURE!!!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:34 AM

"When is a folk music performance a performance and when does it become a political rally?"

In the Philippines? There IS no difference....

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 04:23 AM

Art brut, eh? And there was me thinking it was pretentious, exhibitionist, self-obsessed twat art. I stand corrected :-)

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:29 PM

Since when a conservative program on BBC become an accurate defining arbiter of folk music?


By censoring political expression through music, you are trampling on freedom.

Says Conrad, "The reaction of the far right to the dominance of folk music by the left and liberal is obviously justifed."

How is it justified? They use techniques of intimidation and propaganda toward this "justice". In the late Forties and through the Fifties, it was called "red-baiting". Now,
other labels are used, many of them racist.

Conrad doesn't understand that the rise of the Folk Revival came from participants who were active in the Left Wing Movement. Wall Street and McCarthy weren't interested. If it wasn't for the Left, folk music as we know it in America would not have survived on a popular level. Linkletter and the Hootenanny Show and the commercial folk groups actually co-opted folk music for financial gain.

There is no Left-wing or Right-wing folk music really. There are just songs that represent all kinds of ideas. The Fox News "Fair and Balanced" approach is specious. To censor
anyone on a political level be it the Dixie Chicks or anyone else is repellant to American democracy.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM

Frank-
I agree. But do you think that applies to things like "New Leather Jacket"? (If you haven't heard it, go to YouTube)

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:26 PM

But nevertheless an artifact of our times, and as such worthy of collection.

Good point and I agree with the sentiment, Dick. As a social comment it is vital that these things are recorded. But surely the line should be drawn at performing them to incite hatred of immigrants - Which it is obviouly intended for. Or am I missing something?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:34 PM

My 19-year old son just made a statement to someone who said that they weren't interested in politics, "why not, politics is life?". He's right, of course. The vast majority of folk music is about politics because it's about life. Folk music has always been about radical politics - the politics of the (often disenfranchised) common people with a grievance against the ruling classes. To say that folk music is conservative is a total distortion of history as anyone who has studied the history of radical politics (at least in the UK) will know. Read Hill. Read Tawney. Read any of the books of my son's degree course in History and Politics.

So, every time we sing a folk songs we are, in a way, making a political statement - about the lives of the people who created the music. So every folk song performance is a political rally - and long may it be so.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:04 PM

Ok if you let everyone in it is performance

If you keep it to your own view it is a political rally

Actually the song doesnt matter its the open forum. And the setting of the song.

If you sing a song and spend most of thetime talking politics it is taking over the folk stagefor a political rally. You can sing any song you want and if you spend most of the time talking not about the song but about moving to action then it is a rally simple....

If you limite the songs to those you agree with you are also making a political decision if you refrain from so doing then others have a chance to use the same forum which is good.

There is no song that you have to fear.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

That the best you got? You can't defend your position against the questions being asked or the reasoning being presented to - so you just repeat yourself? What next, holding your breath until you turn blue?

We've heard your OPINION Conrad. No one is agreeing with you. Not much left to say is there, unless you want to counter the points instead of resorting to rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:18 AM

Totally missing the point yet again, Conrad. I agree with Ron - no point in getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM

One wonders how this barely-dressed, unwashed, poverty stricken pack rat ever got a college degree without learning of the existence of the comma.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

Conrad has won me over. I am now out fighting for those he says deserve accessibility.

Conrad, if you read the "Mudcat Update" thread you will see that I am forceful in saying we need accessibility for trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Marmite.

I hope the rest of you can see the sense in this as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:02 PM

Makes sense to me, Spaw - but only if their yaks are allowed in as well.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:26 PM

Just out of morbid curiosity (and a pathological tendency to avoid doing the damned Income Tax, despite the looming deadline), I did some checking into past postings.

It looks like Conrad has been honking essentially the same theme song for some years now. Which is to say, "You people are doing it all wrong!!"

For example, back in 2004, he's griping that on a CD that Bruce Springsteen recorded as a tribute to Pete Seeger, Springsteen is not singing the songs exactly the way Pete sings them. Having not heard the CD myself, I don't know how large the "discrepancy' between Springsteen's and Seeger's performances are, but—

Let me put it this way:    I've learned a whole pot-full of songs from the records of Richard Dyer-Bennet. There's no way in hell that I can sing them the same way that Dyer-Bennet does because he is a light tenor and I am a bass-baritone. And since I have to sing the songs in different keys, this, of course, requires me to work out different accompaniments on the guitar. And although I will borrow (steal) ideas from Dyer-Bennet, they do tend to come out differently in different keys.

I have also learned songs from the recordings of Burl Ives, Ed McCurdy, Andrew Rowan Summers (who accompanies himself on a dulcimer), Susan Reed (Irish harp), Cynthia Gooding, Frank Warner, John Runge, Guy Carawan, Joan Baez, Gordon Bok, Ed Trickett (need I go on?), and, yes, Pete Seeger. And from some field recordings. Not to mentions songs that I've learned directly from people such as Walt Robertson, Merritt Herring, Bob Nelson, Patti McLaughlin, and Helen Thompson.

I've also learned a lot of songs from song books, such as Carl Sandburg's American Songbag, miscellaneous books by the Lomaxes, The Viking Book of Folk Songs, Evelyn Kendrick Wells' The Ballad Tree, all in all, several shelves full of books, some quite academic, others compilations of songs sung by Peggy Seeger, Theodore Bikel, Judy Collins, Ewan MacColl, and on and on, world without end, Amen!

And other than the words and the dots, these books, although they may give some background on the songs, don't say much about how one should sing them. So I'm pretty much left to my own judgment and taste.

I'm sure there are vast numbers of singers of folk songs out there who built their repertoires the same way I did.

And according to Conrad, it looks like we're ALL doing it all wrong! Including—as of recent threads—Pete Seeger!

Now, we're not supposed to sing songs that have a viewpoint or take a position for fear of turning a performance into a "political rally." Or if we should happen to sing a song that expresses an opinion, we are morally bound to invite someone who takes the opposite view on whatever the matter it happens to be to come up on stage and express their view!

For example, should you have the bad judgment to sing a song that advocates putting an end to war, or to racial prejudice, you must let someone come up and sing a song advocating war or racial hatred.

(ARE there any such songs?)

Otherwise, a concert, a coffeehouse gig, an open mike night, or a sit-around-with-a-few-friends-and-swap-songs evening somehow becomes a "political rally."

Okay, suppose you do sing a song with political content. And you do invite anyone with an opposing view to come up and sing something in rebuttal. In your effort to be "fair and balanced," you may be setting the stage for a bipartisan riot!!

Way to go, there, Conrad!!

Well . . . back to the bloody taxes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:56 PM

Dick,

Tried to get that song but there was an obstacle course attached to it. Something
about confirming a birthdate.