Folksong-when performance/when political rally

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:27 PM

My problem is that I am never PC, hardly dress, rarely bathe, have no money....

.............uh,huh....................suitable comment is lacking.............


Spaw

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:31 PM

What it boils down to, Conrad, is that you are not drawing any kind of audiences, therefore, someone else must have killed peoples' interest in folk music.

Take a look in the mirror.

####

This, and the other threads started by Conrad have been one, long, tedious whine.

Don Firth

P. S. Folk music is alive and healthy.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:41 PM

Actually Don, what Conrad needs to draw is a tub of bathwater or even better, a hot shower. I would have to assume that Conrad "B.O. Plenty" Bladey draws flies and not audiences....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 11:00 PM

Ya know, for the life of me, I can't really think of very many people who would want to go and listen to fascist songs being sung by someone who looks like an explosion in a haystack and smells like a toxic waste dump. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 07:07 AM

Unless a house concert is put on in coordination with a folk music society I have never seen anything in the way of publicity even if there is a reservation system. Generally word of mouth after the concert - I here about it in conversation and then the reaction is how did you get in here and why dont you have any money.
The point is that house concerts are not better they are the same.

Its not that bad I just don't dress up in designer costumes and for Irish events I have never had a fishermans sweater me and my clean overalls just feel out of place.

Just go up to folks and invite them to join you on the stage and sing whatever they want. What a great thing to do.

The point is that everything has gotten bigger even folk music but it is not as big as it could be and believe me its not my fault as I am hardly a mover and shaker. The movers and shakers are perhaps moving and shaking in the wrong way - which is ok....hard to see what is needing fixing from inside. But something might just change and put folk music on a faster track.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 10:08 AM

Conrad, your points are really fuzzy. It almost seems as if you are stirring something up for
a hidden motive. (Are you a secret agent? :)
.Do you have an axe to grind that requires this forum?

I have no objection to your being able to speak here, but I question your motives.

House concerts are generally given by fans and the money goes to the performer.
Any scams would be broadcast among the performers.

Inviting people onstage to sing whatever they want sounds like a foolish idea to me.
I wouldn't pay money to hear that.

I can understand your need for attention but could you please make more sense?

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 12:26 PM

"The point is that everything has gotten bigger even folk music but it is not as big as it could be and believe me its not my fault as I am hardly a mover and shaker."

I think there is an old country term to describe you - "shitstirrer".

Of course everything has gotten bigger. You wish it to be even bigger, but on your terms. You have not come to grips with the fact that not many people see the world the way you do, and the free enterprise system of house concerts has been a huge help to the artist and the music in general.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:32 PM

Simple, Conrad.

You obviously have a computer and you have access to the internet. Pull up "google" and put in "house concerts," followed by the name of your locality.

I did that just a few moments ago:   "'house concerts'" and "seattle" and I came up with pages and pages of stuff. To give you an idea, here's a LIST of folk music venues in and around Seattle. At some of these, there is no admission charge or cover, and all it would cost you is the price of a beer. An easy further search revealed that there are more house concerts in this area than I had ever dreamed! Dozens every month! Sometimes three or four on the same day!

And they all have web sites. That's the network whereby they make their announcements. It saves having to have fliers printed up, then wandering up and down the streets stapling them to telephone poles (along with the notices about lost cats).

Yes, they do require that you make a reservation ahead of time for reasons already explained. If the comfortable capacity of their living room or rec room is, say forty-five people, they don't want to have to turn away and disappoint a couple of hundred people lined up expectantly outside. So—it only makes sense to specify "reservations only."

This is NOT secretive, exclusive, or elitist. It's just common sense.

And, yes, there is an admission charge. This household is providing an opportunity to see and hear this performer in a comfortable, intimate setting rather than in a large and austere theater or auditorium, with you sitting in the fourteenth row and the performer up on a stage a quarter of a block away. And often the host provides refreshments. Sometimes there is a potluck before or after the concert. And rather than getting rich off sponsoring house concerts, it gives the host (usually a folk music aficianado, not the bloated capitalist you seem to think) a chance to meet the performer and hear them up close. More often than not, ALL of the proceeds are given to the performer, and if the host keeps any of it, it's only to cover whatever expenses they may have incurred in putting on the concert.

And your remark about the performer "double dipping"—doing a big concert, then following it with one or more house concerts in the same locality—that simply doesn't happen. Often the performer is a local person who is not well-known enough to draw a crowd to a large theater and this is their only opportunity to sing. Or—the performer is on tour, doing a series of house concerts. In this area, for example, Bellingham on Saturday evening, Everett the following afternoon, Seattle on the next Friday evening, followed by Sunday afternoon in Tacoma, then Portland, Oregon on the next Friday, and on down the Pacific Coast.

It is the admission fees given to the performer that make this kind of touring possible, giving many people a chance to hear them and become acquainted with them up close, and gradually allowing them to build an audience for themselves. Nobody gets rich off house concerts. Most of what the traveling performer receives goes to pay his or her traveling expenses.

Richard Dyer-Bennet polished his performances by singing in a night club (The Village Vanguard) early on, then hired New York's Town Hall and gave a concert there. World famous impresario Sol Hurok heard him there and took him on as a client. That was a huge gamble on Dyer-Bennet's part (have you tried to rent New York's Town Hall recently?), but it paid off. Not every aspiring performer can do that.

A house concert can be an end in itself. I've done dozens of them, and enjoy doing them very much. Even so, I've not become rich by doing them. And it is a way for a relatively new performer to gain experience and build an audience. Or for an older performer such as myself who wishes to give an occasional concert and prefers a smaller, more intimate venue.

####

If you don't care about the performance aspect of folk music and you just want to sing yourself and hear other people sing, then that should be idiot simple to do.

Invite a few singers to you home of an evening and sit around and sing for each other.

The first folk music events I ever went to were what we called "hootenannies."

The word got pre-empted by commercial interests later on, but in the 1950s, here in Seattle, there was a "hoot" almost every weekend. Some were in places like community centers, some were held at the University Friends (Quakers) Meeting House, but most were held in private homes. We would gather on a Friday or Saturday evening and there were no formalities. Grab a seat on a chair, sofa, or sit cross-legged on the floor. When a number of people had gathered, we'd all tune up (guitars, banjos, whatever), and someone would start singing. There was no special organization. The singing was in no specified order. We didn't go around in a circle or anything like that (although you could—around here, that came later when the Seattle Song Circle was organized, but we'd been "hooting" for decades before that). The main protocol merely said "Don't hog the show." Sing a song, then let someone else sing. Sing solo or sing together. Sometimes we'd rock the place with group songs such as sea chanteys. Any and all combinations. But have some consideration for the neighbors.

Jazz musicians would probably call something like this a "jam session." Same general idea.

It was this sort of thing that allowed me to grow from a green-around-the-gills neophyte who knew three songs and an equal number of guitar chords to someone who felt confident in singing solo for larger groups, and eventually into doing long-term gigs in cooffeehouses and clubs, then concerts, TV, and such. Warm plunge!

This might be right up your alley, Conrad. If you're hung up on politically oriented songs, go for it! If someone sings "We Shall Overcome" or "Union Maid," there's nothing to stop you from singing "The Horst Wessel Song." Go for it!

Total cost for such an event? Nuthin! If you're feeling generous, you could always supply a case of beer or a gallon jug of cheap wine and some paper cups, maybe some chips and dip. But that's strictly local option. You could specify BYOB.

So if you want a free venue and you want to be free to sing whatever you want, stop whining, get off your butt, and get to it!

Don't pollute! GIVE A HOOT!!

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I was not aware of this until I read Pete Seeger's The Incomplete Folksinger, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, 1992. Pete says that the word "hootenanny" in relation to an informal gathering of folk singers apparently originated in Seattle, probably sometime in the 1930s. He and Woody Guthrie first heard the word in this context in Seattle in 1941. They took the word back to New York and started calling their Saturday song fests at Almanac House "hootenannies," and the term caught on. See The Incompleat Folksinger, page 327

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 05:29 PM

By the way, that's The Incompleat Folksinger, as in the second iteration above. The first time 'round, MS Word's "magic automatic typo corrector" changed what I had typed. I caught the second one, but missed the first one when I hit the "Submit" button.

(Lest someone feel impelled to correct my spelling, Pete's title is a take-off of Izaac Walton's The Compleat Angler.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 07:15 PM

Hey don I have been doing free events at my place for decades. Works fine. That is why the festival people with their high costs events amuse me. If the audience is dedicated to the music then it is mutually supportive and can be free.

Just listened to a great bbc show today radio three on play it again. They discussed how the folk music scene was taken over by the left in the 50 s and 60s and now the folkies are complaining that it is being taken over by the right. The same way it was taken over by the left.

Must find the programme and report back.

Lisa Carthy was interviewed.

her views on nationalism and british folk music and performance.

The trouble with conquering music and dominating it is that the branding process occurs and you turn away all the other side for a while then secondly the music of the party out of power is under played and starts to be lost or is archived which makes the already overworked folklorists work too hard.

We should understand that the process is wasteful and that there must be a way to short circut it.

The answer imho is in managing the nature of the venue. Keeping music music and art and leaving politics to occur only within the music. Then also a conscious effort to encourage, invite bring in the other side as best you can so that music becomes the language of a multi sided debate rather than a genre dominated and conquered by one side or another.

This widening or welcoming appears to have been discarded in the 50s and 60s as one side too control and as it appears perhaps did not too much to invite everyone to the table.

No one knows for sure but as a result of attitudes expressed and re expressed here on mudcat it is evident that possession of the stage is 9 tenths of the law and it has been exercised by those who have used aesthetic forums to play only one side of an issue.

So to get out of the cycle do what you can to avoid any given side from owning the venues and stages. You don't have to but it might just work.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 07:54 PM

Every song has a point-of-view that is attached to the singer with a point-of-view.
Audiences can select what they want to hear. It doesn't have to be all on one concert
or show.

For any performer, they are onstage because they have something they feel is important to say. A concert isn't a advocacy situation like a court of law.

This taking sides idea makes no sense.

I remember the words of Mike Gerde at his table in his New York coffee house.
"If everyone likes you, there must be something wrong with you."

As for me, I will play my view of the story because that's who I am.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 08:50 PM

People have used concerts as advocacy situations. Despite folk access to the US media in the 50s and 60 s there was genrally only one view provided.

When you use music to limit the range of points of view you are doing the musical genre and its listeners a disservice as well as artists that are not made to feel welcome.

When you do that you limit the ability of folk music to expand. You loose the opposing viewpoint and tend to stifle it.

Here is a great bbc programme still available for play it again for a day or so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00rs4rx

it is noted that the left took control of the genre in fiftys and sixtys now they are upset as the right is making a challange to their dominance.

The solution is not grinding one side to dust and trashing their music but the welcoming of all points of view accepted equally as art.
Without extended calls to action and lectures of manefestos.

The constant conquest and re conquest of a musical genre is harmful and limits what we all can do.

We have to stop the one sided filters. We have to be confident that music is just music and that will let everyone enter the tent. You don't have to agree with them but you should grant them access and liseten to their songs as you would like them to listen to yours.

You should try to bring in the opposite side as much as you try to bring in the side you agree with.

Just seems to make sense to me.

No you dont have to just an idea. Think on it.

Remember if you loose to the right your music will be on the chopping block unless something is soon done to make folk music a language and art rather than a point of view to be dominated by one side or the other.

Remember although you may think you are right the other side thinks the same.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 10:41 PM

Conrad, the situation in the UK that you keep citing has been noted here in a number of Mudcat threads. Concern about folk clubs and other folk venues—IN ENGLAND—being taken over by members of the British National Party. And the fact that many people think of the BNP as the "British Nazi Party" can give you a pretty good idea of what they are all about. I've checked a few things about the BNP on the internet (their web sites, speeches by their members on video, etc.), and believe me, they are a pretty gamey bunch! They want to claim British folk music as their own, not let singers sing anything other than what they regard as English folk songs—and this in addition to "sending all those Jews, Pakis, and wogs back to where they belong!!"

Now, let me be abundantly clear here:   if your sympathies lie with this bunch, then I have nothing to say to you, save that I—and many, many others—will oppose you every step of the way, however we can.

Your ideas about how folk music has been "taken over" by "lefties" and that this limits the audiences for it are just plain unrealistic. If you think folk music is "limited" by political orientation now, just wait until the BNP takes over. Then everything will be limited, confined, straitjacketed, and, yes, CENSORED. You will see censorship like you'd never believe possible. And WORSE.

After all—it's all happened before.

But this is the situation in the British Isles, and unless the Teabaggers or the Aryan Nations suddenly decide to try to claim American folk music as their own, that situation simply does not and will not exist on this side of the pond.

And your notions of the "lefty" slant of American folk music is grossly exaggerated. Yes, there are left-oriented songs, but these songs make up such a small segment of the entire body of American folk music that to make the kind of claims that you are is just not realistic. There are individual singers who may sing a lot of politically oriented songs (I know a few such people), but they, too, make up a small percentage to those who sing folk songs.

Take another look at that list I linked to of the folk venues in Seattle. And that's just one city and its surrounding area. Google "house concerts" or "folk music venues" along with names of other cities and I think it will become abundantly clear that there is no limit on the audience for folk music in this country.

Conrad, those giants waving their arms and terrorizing the countryside are only windmills.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM

"When you use music to limit the range of points of view you are doing the musical genre and its listeners a disservice as well as artists that are not made to feel welcome."

Bunk! Give us a single example where that has happened. Again, it is just your opinion.

Folk music develops to fit a need. Folk preservation in this country began in this country in the early 20th century as a way of preserving a way of life that conservatives felt was changing. Staunch conservatives such as Henry Ford were heavily involved. John Lomax was a conservative.   Folk festivals were part of a conservative movement.

At the mid point of the 20th century, the shift began. The focus on labor and HISTORICAL protest song was evident, and it was carried out with social changes that were occuring.   The folk process at work - and representing a community.

Sorry Conrad, but your whining is not working. YOu are ignoring the fact that language, art and politics are intertwined.   Wishing it would go away is not going to change facts.

Your definitions are leaking.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:37 AM

Surely all we need is a modicum of common sense to see the difference between songs which put over a particular point of view and songs which offend major sensibilities. Trouble seems to be that common sense is indeed far from common:-(

Songs which portray an historic or even current fight against genuine oppresion are vastly different to songs which incite people to hatred against another group of people.

Songs which cleverly, and often humourously, point out flaws in any political systems are not likely to cause revolution but may lead to reform. Songs which simply attack individuals are likely to stir trouble.

Songs of cruelty to animals are OK in an historic content but not acceptable if they urge people to continue barbarity.

Songs telling of the child abuse inflicted by mine and mill owners or, more recently, human trafficers, form an important social document. Any which glorify the abusers should never be heard.

The list could go on but hopefuly most people will understand the line, even if sometime wavey and blurred. Those that cannot or will not see the difference need, at the very least, some serious education. Or maybe some songs writing about them?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Bettynh
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:11 AM

Conrad, what do you think of the Smithsonian's efforts with Folkways and the summer festivals?

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:21 AM

I seem to be reading a load of bollocks here in our wonderful hotel near Marbella Old Town. You should forget all this nonsence and get yourselves to the sun!!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:28 AM

Don- I never said I sided with any political party I just state that they have a right to ride on the bus and to feel as welcome as any point of view. Folk venues are best as open forum where an effort is made to reach everyone who would like to perform even if this is not an obligation.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:32 AM

Ron it just makes sense. If you see that a media is hostile to your point of view you probably won't go in the room. Obvious. That inherently discourages participation.

Yes originally folk music was preservation of the country ways and heritage. Then it was taken over by lefty politicos and their political views became Iconic of the whole- they inserted a one sided politics.

If there is only one brand of peanut butter in the store you have to buy that brand no matter what brand. Those in power in the folk movement had only one brand. You can not argue selection of the market place if there was no choice.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

"Remember although you may think you are right the other side thinks the same."

That's as may be, but when the "other side" are racists and white supremacists, they are wrong. When they want to use folk music as one of several tools to lever themselves into power, in order to be able to make discriminatory laws and to turf every non-white person out of this country, they are wrong.

Conrad, please have the courtesy to make pronouncements about what you have some understanding of, which is presumably the situation on your side of the Atlantic. You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the current political climate in the UK, nor the points Eliza Carthy and Trish Winter were making in the programme you posted.

As Jon Boden said, Folk Against Fascism is not politicising folk music. The BNP are doing that.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:41 AM

David- common sense is culturally defined. That is the way it should be.

Freedom to interpret the world is important. So often westerners claim that western received views should be inflicted upon everyone. That should never happen.

Same with music.

Just look at how terrible immoral behavior has now been accepted in the United States and the west as perfectly ok. Same with general tolerance of the once thought terrible use of drugs. Values change.

Look at the islamic views of consumption of alcohol- they dont believe in it at all.

So its all relative.

My feeling as an anthropologist, yes I have a degree and graduate work....is that the solution is freedom to opt in and out. We should not tell people that their culture is immoral we should just help them to leave it and start a new life elsewhere. Same with entering a culture. It should not be place of birth or genetically determined (we fought a war about that) it should be the mastery of the culture.
And active practice of the culture.

So we always have sides trying to claim that only their PC values be expressed in music. As politics changes one set of songs is ground to dust as the other is raised up. This is wasteful and discrespctful of the song or genre as art.

The solution is to guarantee a forum where music is presented as music and as art and where everything possible is done to bring in those who may not feel welcome not to keep them away.

The other side has just as much right to possess the music as you if you wish to maintain the battlefield. That battlefield needs to be removed.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Bettynh
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:58 AM

"We should not tell people that their culture is immoral we should just help them to leave it and start a new life elsewhere."

Conrad, please clarify this.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 12:45 PM

Opposing fascism is not being "PC". It's being human.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

Conrad would like to rob the artist of his/her individuality by making their performance
so bland that it would appeal to everyone. The problem with this is that the more appeal an artist has to a larger audience, the tendency is to reduce the performance to a vacuity.

There are certain things in every culture that are objectionable. For example, Islam's practice of "honor killings" and public beheadings. Or Christian witch-burning. (check out Martin Luther and John Wesley's attitude about this). As to cultures specifically, it was part of the Southern culture of the Forties to hang black people.

PC is a term that has lost its meaning. There is no political correctness any more. Politics is all over the map and is often confusing such as the ideas promulgated by the "Tea Baggers".

PC was used by devotees of the Right-wing to condemn those whom with which they disagreed.

The idea that the current musical artist is part of a "conspiracy" to push rigid political ideas across to anyone is specious. It has no merit.

If you analyze the development of the performing artists who make a difference in people's lives you find change and fluidity in their ideas, musically and lyrically.
The idea that their are those who are frozen in time in their political beliefs just
doesn't apply today. At the same time, those without passion or conviction in their politics or ideas make for very dull performers.

Most folkies admire Pete or Utah Phillips or Woody Guthrie precisely because they made
statements that if at least the audience may not have agreed with the sentiments, they
realized the integrity of their performance.

The cultural anthropologist is not in a state of wanting to freeze people in time although this was the tendency of Herskovitz and many stuffy folklorists. Societies are fluid,
change with the times, and can't be monolithic in their views.

The "multicultural" tolerance and pseudo-objectivity can become enabling for the
destructive tendencies of some cultures and religions and these should not be tolerated.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM

". . . common sense is culturally defined. That is the way it should be."

WHAT!??

Conrad, there are many, many things that were accepted as "common sense" by various cultures and at various times in history that are patently irrational, some so irrational that they constitute abominations. Others have mentioned some of these above, such as public beheadings for things such as adultery, chopping off hands for minor crimes such as petty theft, witch-burning or being burned at the stake for not believing properly, or just being accused of not believing "properly."

The idea that the earth was the center of the universe was the universal belief of practically all cultures. It was common sense. You could see just by looking about you that the earth stayed in one spot and all of the heavens moved around it. And then Galileo pointed this newly fashioned gadget called a "telescope" at the skies, saw that things were not as everyone believed them to be. Rather than being a perfect sphere, the moon had mountains, valleys, craters; Jupiter was not a wandering star, it was another world—and it had smaller worlds circling about it. Could it be that—? Not only "could it be," but it turned out that this is indeed the way it is. The earth is not the center of the universe.

This meant that Man, God's greatest creation, was not that all-fired important in the Grand Scheme of Things after all!

Of course this flew in the face of "common sense." So much so that the Church offered Galileo the choice of either repudiating what he had seen with his own eyes or being burned at the stake.

"Common sense" is often at odds with the way things ARE.

Does this mean that Reality has changed? No, it means that "common sense" was wrong.

Once again I cite the kultur in Nazi Germany. Ridding the world of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone who was not blond and blue-eyed was "common sense" to many presumably modern, educated, and "civilized" people—"common sense" to a sufficiently large percentage of the population that even those who had the courage to protest and say, "This is wrong!" were either ignored or themselves arrested and sent to the death camps.

If you have a degree in anthropology, Conrad, then you are living proof that having a sheepskin in a particular subject does not mean that one has any kind of fundamental understanding of that subject.

And you would take Art, bring it down to the lowest common denominator by castrating it and turning it into nothing more that a pretty little pile of flavorless goop.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:43 PM

Don Firth: So much so that the Church offered Galileo the choice of either repudiating what he had seen with his own eyes or being burned at the stake.

Actually he was placed under house arrest. It's far more glam to say he was going to be burned at the stake. It's just not true.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:26 PM

Maybe so. But nevertheless, Galileo was given the choice of repudiating what he knew to be true, or spending the rest of his days in incarceration. Actually, the Church was burning "heretics" at the stake at the time, and who knows what would have eventually happened to him had he not backed down.

The principle holds:   Galileo was right. "Common sense," determined (dictated) by the culture of the time, was wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:43 PM

mousethief- what would they say about you....I am sure they think they are equally correct. You dont change anything by telling someone that their position should not exist.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:45 PM

stringsinger I never said anywhere that I would limit the artist. I have said that all songs are ok, all content ok, political speeches not so good

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

don we as as a society do lots of things that others even those in our own society think are terrible and immoral.

just talk to the anti abortionists

Again I do not support fascists and again the solution is that they can do what they want with the restriction that people can leave and become established elsewhere if they dont like the cultural practices and others can enter who wish to master and live the culture.

There are many belief systems- if they want to believe that the earth is flat or that wine changes to blood whatever...that is their choice and has nothing to do with me they have a right to their own freedom and the right to be different.

Lots of changes within the last 50 years would have deeply shocked the people of my parents generation as immoral. But now we all agree that people make choices and those choices are valid and now they can become moral. It is all in the eye of the culture and cultures need not agree with each other. I dont agree with quite a few sub cultures in this country.

You should not inflict your particular values on a culture or a music tradition. You should work on ways to bring in the greatest diversity not eliminate or discourage one color or another.

I think lots of fascists would have nothing to do with killing people however on the positive side they may have ways to make the trains run on time.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:00 PM

Here is one for you -

Are you going to stop singing any catholic song, irish catholic songs, hymns from the catholic church, ave maria etc.....now that the word is out that internationally and as a trend the church has condoned and covered up child molestation?

The Jewish people in Jerusalem stoned to death St. Stephen the first martyr of the church. Not exactly a moral act in your book....Shall we all eliminate jewish songs and music.

Look far enough and any people, political group, culture, race has done something terrible it is only by forgiveness and finding the good in their works of art that we can overcome. Again one can appreciate a work of art even not understanding the words at all. And the old calls to action are stale - so the next time you hear a song about going and joining Charlie are you going to run around looking for a cavalier king to join up with?

Perhaps by reacting so violently to the old ideas you let them have power over you that should be long dead and part of the history.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:31 PM

Conrad: mousethief- what would they say about you....I am sure they think they are equally correct. You dont change anything by telling someone that their position should not exist.

I didn't tell him his position should not exist (whatever that means) but that it was wrong. And you have to tell people they're wrong -- that's how progress is made in all science and history.

The RCC didn't kill a single scientist. (Plenty of Protestants, alas.) Many people don't know this. If they assert otherwise, they are wrong. It is possible to be wrong, Conrad, however much you might wish it were not so.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

"There are many belief systems- if they want to believe that the earth is flat or that wine changes to blood whatever...that is their choice and has nothing to do with me they have a right to their own freedom and the right to be different."

Well,if those belief systems truly wanted to simply pootle along as they wish, and not dictate the way I or my friends choose to live our lives in any way, there wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, many people of a particular religious or political ideology don't just want to govern how THEY live - they want to govern how WE live - and this includes you, Conrad, and your bizarre folk zealotry. Stop telling us what to do. If you like what we do, participate in it. If you don't - bugger off and do whatever turns you on with your horn jackets. But don't tell me I have to engage with your creeds, or how you think I ought to engage with music on any level. Because, like as not, I will simply tell you to fuck off.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

I have said that all songs are ok, all content ok

That is certainly an opinion I would oppose. Songs that incite people to hurt others are not OK. Try this song for an example.

The common sense I was talking about is the sense that SHOULD be common to everyone. That is the sense that tells us some things are just plain wrong. Religious beliefs rarely come under that category. The examples cited above about the earth being the centre of the universe etc. are nothing to do with common sense. They were a common belief or a shared faith. Faith and sense are often mutualy exclusive I'm afraid.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 12:46 PM

"this includes you, Conrad, and your bizarre folk zealotry"

The problem is, Ruth, that Conrad lives in his own little self-constructed world of fakelore that has more resemblance to Tolkein than reality. I bet he also believes that the world is flat, that he has fairies at the bottom of his garden and that he is some great wizard. I've come across people like him before and their state of mind usually stems from reading too much Lord of the Rings. taking too many halucinogenic substances and listening to The Moody Blues Threshold of a Dream. I've started to find all this extremely amusing now - I'm waiting for threads from him on what to wear when entering an enchanted forest and how to disarm a Balrog.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:07 PM

See this thread:    CLICKY

By the way, leveller, have you seen Conrad's web site?   If not, you are actually closer to the truth than you may realize. He doesn't have all that many fairies at the bottom of his garden, but he seems to have hordes of garden gnomes.

Not to mention miscellaneous body parts!!????

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM

KITCHY kitchy coo!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:12 PM

Sorta wonder what the neighbors think. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: buddhuu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM

This gobshite has a website? Oy vey...

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM

but he seems to have hordes of garden gnomes.

Imposters every one!

DeG

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM

Dave-
re your post with the link to the BNP song.
Certainly not a pretty sentiment. And certainly not one I agree with. But nevertheless an artifact of our times, and as such worthy of collection.
Thanx for the link.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:16 AM

"By the way, leveller, have you seen Conrad's web site?"

Bloody 'ell, it's even worse than I thought - total reality bypass!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

""You should not inflict your particular values on a culture or a music tradition. You should work on ways to bring in the greatest diversity not eliminate or discourage one color or another.""

At last you begin dimly to realise what we are on about, but, as usual, you've got the whole scenario arse about face.

We are the ones who are trying to prevent others from doing just what you talking about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:14 AM

""I think lots of fascists would have nothing to do with killing people however on the positive side they may have ways to make the trains run on time.""

That's exactly what they said about dear old Adolf.

THEY WERE WRONG!

Ask all the Jewish people whose families ceased to exist in the forties what they think of Griffin's sidekick walking down London streets, shouting "Death to the Jews".

YOU ARE WRONG!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM

Thanks for all of the interest in my art!
Truly wondrous.
The neighbors dont think much at all generally
Most people are amazed, stop in wander about take photos.
All welcome.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

"Thanks for all of the interest in my art!
"

Oh ther's some art in there, is there? Must have missed it amongst all the lurid coloured junk. It's pretty much sums up your your posts, Conrad - colourful but complete rubbish!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:09 PM

But is it . . . ART?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM

Messenger bashing- I love it. Always know when a nerve is touched and they can't reason out a good defense.

Here is a bumper sticker I saw today- great instruction for you-

FEAR NO ART

Yes I am an outsider visionary (art brut) artist look it up. Lots of us out there. Nationally recognized at that. See the wonderous tabletop book edited by my friend Matt Lake- Weird Maryland, And the second artcar book by Harrod Blank, and a survey of important Baltimore sights by Dan Rodricks-another great photo study. Additionally covered by Voice of America Television. Hey you overseas folks mightjust have seen me!

My bottle tree is progressing nicely. The most recent project. My first show of the year is this week-

Your views on art expressed here match your intolerance of the music of others at least you are consistant.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

How dare we like and dislike differently from you. Because in art, "dislike" must perforce equal "intolerance".

The artistic soul has no time for logic.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:52 PM

Peasant: "Always know when a nerve is touched and they can't reason out a good defense."

I think maybe your cliches have somehow gotten scrambled.
When you said you 'touched a nerve' maybe what you meant was 'triggered a gag reflex'

***

Instead of trying to get people to open their stage to contrary opinions, wouldn't it be easier to create Contrary Fests where opposing viewpoints combine their regular events to double your pleasure?
For example, how about combining a Gun&Knife Show with a regular Folk Festival. Each group would have a ready audience and the stage could be shared equally.

You could set yourself up as a Specialized Promoter, Conrad!
You could propose and coordinate these Contrary Fests because you've already got an incomprehensible idea of how to solve a (possibly non-existent) problem you have identified.
If you do that, we'll be able to see whether the sensible folk who doubt your perception are as logical as they appear..or whether we get to eat your dust.

I bet you could get some other ideas for OpposingCombo Events right here if you play your cards right.
Think of the wasted audience at women's clinics..pro-lifers outside, stressed out women waiting in the lobby. Why not set up a stage there?!
Why are you the only one who has thought of this??

Go for it, Conrad!
Let us know how it works out.