the uk folkscene and sex changes

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 17 - 03:49 AM

." Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?"
I prefer to play in places where you are judged by your music, [are you listening John Mackenzie not judge by anything else including perceived on line persona.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:17 PM

i can't imagine anyone wanting to go to the second kind. are rhere such clubs?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 01:56 PM

I feel that there's rather more to music than just songs, tunes, bands, accompaniments etc. There is also 'ambience'. Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?

If you specifically want the music there is another thread to this topic.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 17 - 12:30 PM

This is just a rude rant, nowt to do with music.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:55 AM

"Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined."
Myself included, for 30 years I could not get booked at a certain club because i had made a derogatory remark about mrs Thatcher,the organiser[who must have been a Thatcher supporter died] and i have played the club twice since.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest sand man good soldier schweik dick mil
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:40 AM

Hopefully the above answers your question, if it does not go back and re read all the posts carefully.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 06:07 AM

by and large, i'd say folk clubs aren't great places to be rude and unpleasant - whatever you judge to be the provocation.

English folk clubs are places where you can piss people off without trying. well look at mudcat - foreigners are always leaping back in astonishment about how nasty we are with each other.

that said, i hope you find a friendly reception and have fun.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:06 AM

I suppose that, at the end of the day, it's all about freedom to be who we are, and to accept that people are not standardised with an ISO spec. and that it takes all sorts to make the world. Or do we want a world where blinkered bigots rule the roost, where the folkscene is basically a closed shop open only to bonafide card-carrying heteros, possibly with the correct political allegiance as an additional limitation? I regard myself as a musician, the TG aspect is merely a quirk of fate which I have to deal with.

Al: if you're not really aware of any TG folkies then that's great! That's how it should be, in an ideal world we should be remembered for our music and not because we're somewhere on some LGBT scale, look like a double for Frankenstein's monster, or whatever. Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined.

I'm only rude to those who I feel that, in a given situation, deserve it!

So, I'm off to adapt my repertoire to my changed circumstances, after all, standing on stage wearing a mini-skirt and belting out "Little Sally Racket" might be just a little incongruous!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:48 PM

sorry to cause offence - but what exactly is the point of this thread?

the only transgender person i can think of - on the folkscene is the guy that used to call himself KIng George in Brownsville Banned, and I didn't even know he was still gigging....and of course famously Louis Killen.

I can think of clubs where any kind of nonconformity is barracked. i can think of clubs where the members are enlightened and tolerant.

if you're as bloody rude Lynn to the people you meet in English folk clubs - please don't blame it on your sexual identity.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:20 PM

It's a prevalent attitude found also in folk clubs and, as such, is a "music" issue. Some people lose gigs, others will be so baracked and abused that they can only perform their music under extreme difficulties. Here the subject is transgender but if you want to go back a few years you'll find that Janis Ian suffered similarly for her song "Society's Child".

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:13 PM

It isn't a "music" issues. So I am really npt sure what you are on about...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:01 PM

HEY!!! Not so fast!!! I thought I posted something here this morning!!! I am not, repeat NOT, some 'Sandman' alias. I am ME - Lynn H - OK?!!

As my deleted post pointed out, the gutter/red-top press in the UK, in particular The Daily Wail, seems to have it in for TGs. People have committed suicide because of the way they've been treated by the Wail. Looked at statistically there will be Wail readers in folk-club audiences and so, given the vitriolic attitudes of that rag, they will probably feel that hurling abuse at any TG singer who dares to get up on stage and open their mouth is Daily Wail approved behaviour. It would be interesting to know how club organisers react in such circumstances.

Here in Germany, with the probable exception of far rightwing rags, the general press attitude seems to be 'TG/LGBT? So what?', probably because a couple of print media owners have had to deal with this problem in their own families.

At the moment I've no idea when I'll make it back to the UK, if only for a visit. I can only hope that the folk-clubs will be welcoming. (And that's not taking the possible brexit fate of UK citizens on the European mainland into account!)

@Big Al Whittle: Since you've obviously got nothing even remotely intelligent to contribute to this serious topic - why don't you just go away and play with yourself??

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:24 AM

ought to be compulsory - everyone using a loose leaf file to sing Streets of London should get their knob chopped off.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:19 AM

@Dick Miles: What was your posting that Gina and Gloria commented on? The only 'Dick Miles' posting I can find here is your actual one.

A problem for TGs in the UK is the gutter/red-top press, particularly the Daily Wail, which apparently has no qualms about hounding such people, even if the result is suicide. Not surprisingly this mentality rubs off on the readership in much the same way as, in the course of the Brexit 'vote', the vitriolic polemic spat out by the Wail and other rags was apparently understood by some as a call to abuse, and even kill, immigrants and an MP.

I should perhaps make clear that I live in Germany where TGs seem to be treated with far more respect than in the UK, although having said that, I'd definitely think twice about walking through urban districts with high immigrant, speak turkish and arabic, populations. However, being outside the UK doesn't mean that I'm not unaware of what's going on 'back home'.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest Dick Miles
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:01 AM

One thing is made clear on this thread, it is possible to discuss particular and possibly taboo subjects and have a sensible discussion, if the people that post, read the original post carefully and avoid name calling.
The comments made by Peter Laban,Ralphie,JohnMackenzie, Gervase were unfortunately not of that quality.
important posts were
1.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:07 PM

In answer to Dick's original post, yes. Gina Le Faux .
2.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:48 PM

I personally dont find Dick's question offensive in any way.I perform a lot in a transgender role.
3.
Finally I have witnessed prejudice against someone who had a sex change in a folk club by an organiser, the people shall remain name less, but it happened
until we can discuss the matter sensibly in public, changes of attitude will not happen, people will still snigger
people who make pathetic comments about my name or whether I am going to have a sex change or tell me to sod off or other such abuse need to think hard.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:48 PM

I have just reread all of this thread.
I stand by everything I said, I think it is an important subject and was worth discussing.
a touching contribution from anon,
LYYNH
there were comments from performers with first hand experience... Gina and gloria.
as usual there was abuse, and attempts to bully me, that sort of behaviour only reflects poorly on the people who poured out that bile

---

Sandman, post ONLY in your own name, do not post as a guest and speak for other members in their name. Your fake guest posts have been deleted.

---

There's some confusion, possible because a member posted with his real name as a guest.
Everything should be restored now. -Jerimod

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 07 May 17 - 04:09 PM

Having just found this thread via the 'Sexual/gender identity thread I need to add a few comments.
   Re gender dysphoria when a family is involved. we have to bear in mind that, for the older contributors here, marriage and family was an almost inevitably unavoidable concept when we were growing up. It was more or less hammered into us on a daily basis- this was our fate and compliance was expected of us. Add to that the almost petrified concepts of 'man', 'woman' and their roles back then and it doesn't surprise me that many of us reached 'The point of no return' much later in life and with the problems of family on our plates.(Luckily (hindsight), fate has seen to it that the various chalices of relationship, family etc. have passed me by.) Interestingly, when I finally came out, various friends said that they weren't surprised(!) which puzzled me a bit. How did I blow my cover?

   Imagine you've got to hold a large beach ball or a green physiotherapy ball under water. At the start, and for a good while it's easy but...then you start to tire and the ball starts to come up. So.you redouble your efforts and push it down again....and again you begin to tire. This goes on and on with ever shorter intervals until you eventually reach a point where you have to realise and accept that things can't go on like this and the problem has to be faced. Some of us bite on the bullet and adjust our lives, others will unfortunately choose suicide.

   There are quite a few transgender musicians in jazz and rock and there musical proficiency seems to be decisive although, in contrast to the 'folk scene' as members in bands they're less noticeable and there's usually a good few metres between the band and the audience anyway. In any case, at a rock gig the punters are too busy leaping about to question the gender of, say, the bassist. In the folk scene we're predominantly soloists and almost on top of the first row of the audience.

    And the folk club/ open mike evenings? Well, I'll have to bite on that bullet despite having to use 'his' voice. It's possible to adapt the speaking voice but the singing voice is another matter, as is anything involving being loud.

    It's a pity that Louisa Jo Killen is no longer with us as, if she'd been a Mudcatter, she could have reported 'from the front line' on her experiences as TG in the UK folk scene.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Michael
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

It just goes to show that we are an accepting bunch.

Mike

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:25 AM

I agree

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:01 AM

We were just on the other day how all the transexuals (all of them male to female) we've ever known have been folkies - and the folk world accounts for maybe 20% at best of our overall social network.

No point, just a basic observance. People are free to do whatever they like as long as it's not depriving others of the right to do likewise.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 10 - 12:53 PM

Howard,
Pats post does not answer the question,Ginas response[imo does].

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 10 May 10 - 10:40 AM

It's a hard one to deal with for sure. I am not sure how I would have been affected had it troubled me to insanity before my daughter had grown up. I do kmow that, even now, I feel terrible over the effects I have had on her and my granddaughter's life. They deserved to have better things happen to them. So did my wife.

I always tried to drive a balance between my progress and seeing they were okay. That was made easy for me in them supporting and understanding my transition and the need to be who I was. THAT is why I cannot comment on someone who has been totally rejected by their family and friends, thrown on a heap and left to rot. That was not my experience.

Suicide is often a quick solution that comes into your head. "People would be better off with me and would be able to move forward". It was not a true option for me though as I knew what my forced death would do to others. I resented having to 'stick around' at times, for them, not being able to be me and not being able to be there for them. I have searched the depths of my own despondency to try and find compromise. But I always erred on the side of my own self interests, making me more selfish than I ever wanted to be, knowing that if I could where I needed to be then I would be able to care for those others better somehow.

Strange thing really. I would lie down and die for my daughter and granddaughter. I would sawp places with my wife if she could come back healthy and be happy. Yet I could not live as a man for them. I would sooner be dead than living as a man. I cannot explain it. It is so deep within my soma I gave up years ago trying to fight it. I don't really need to understand it it either.

All I ever need do is ask me who I am. I am me. End of story. I am sorry that me was such a selfish being though. All I can do now is try and make things better for others because I now have the energy, means and need to do that. I am one of the lucky ones.

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:34 AM

Murray's coments regarding parental responsibility dont take into account the Affect on Children of a parent having a complete breakdaown and possible suicide because of the mental strain of not being in the correct body !
When you see the change in someone whos has finaly reached the decision to go ahead with the change despite all the problems , it does make a difference .

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: selby
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:31 AM

Does the question matter surely the person inside is a happier person
and the person you see is the person you always saw only in different plumage, if you where their friend then you will be their friend now if you admifed their skill then you will now etc.
At the end of the day booking for folk clubs is a lottery you can book acts that are deemed to be brilliant and nobody turns up or vica versa so to sum up enjoy life it is not a dress rehersal

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 10 - 03:49 AM

I guess Pat's post answers Dick's original question, which has rather been forgotten in the way this thread has (rather interestingly) developed (which was not how I feared it might at first).

To Anon - don't be too hard on yourself. We all have to make choices in life, and sometimes these can hurt people close to us. Your choice was more difficult than most. Only you and the people close to you can judge.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS
Date: 09 May 10 - 08:15 PM

Hiya Gina, How you doing? I haven't seen you for quite a few years. Would you like to do a gig at Llantrisant Folk Club next year? Just email me at the address you know, it would be great to have you again, we can work something out. XX Pat

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 07:31 PM

No-one can ever say when this will overwhelm them and how long they can 'keep a lid on it' before it spills open. I was lucky. It came totally out after my daughter had finished school but there is a little granddaughter who has not had the life she would have had with her granddad because I took the path I did.

I see her. I 'male drag' to see her. But I do not see her as much as I would like nor spend the time with them I would wish to because of having to be as others need me to be for them whilst there.

I make no judgements at all for those who could not wait. I am not in their shoes and am grateful I am not. You would not sih it on anyone. But you should also not judge what they have had to do unless you have been there yourself. Even thn you can only judge yourself. It's really not so simple.

Die or live is all that is left for some.

I respects totally what you are saying about the ridicule for the children. Try not to blame the transperson for that though. It's the ones doing the bullying who are in the wrong. Sensure them. Please try not to judge that which you cannot have a clue about.

It's not simples at all sadly

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 07:10 PM

the world is that simple , Noreen.

all I am saying is that if the overwhelming compulsion has been kept in abeyance for so long, then it can wait a couple more years before realisation, until the kids are out of the way.

they will still have to deal with it, of course, but at least outwith the unavoidable peer pressure of their schoolmates.

all of which may be (and I sincerely hope is) totally irrelevant to the case of Guest anon, of course.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:57 PM

Would that the world were so simple, Murray!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:56 PM

Gina:

no dependent children : thumbs up
dependent children : thumbs down

simples.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:54 PM

Dear anon,
We all have to make the best of what we are given in this life.

You have been given a far tougher hand to deal with than the vast majority of people.

You are dealing with it in the best way you can, taking into account the feelings of as many other people concerned as you can.

There is a limit to what any one person can do to make things right, however wonderful that person is.

It seems to me that you are doing a pretty good job in the circumstances, so go easy on yourself. :)

Love,
Noreen

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:52 PM

To Murray MacLeod
Unless you know the full circumstances and the people concerned you cannot make fair judgements.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:46 PM

oh dear, that should read :

..."You are obviously under no obligation to reveal such details" ...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:44 PM

Guest anon, what's done is done and cannot be undone.

I do not know , and do not have the right to know, the exact details of your circumstances.

You are obviously under obligation to reveal such details, but what I will say is that if you were a parent while you underwent the change, and if your children were under school -leaving age, then I am sorry, I for one would say that there is no justification on earth for deciding to go through with the change, no matter what internal trauma you were experiencing.

If on the other hand you were not a parent, or if you waited until your children had left school, then good on you, I wish you all the best.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:21 PM

Oh I'm okay. But thanks for your kind words.

It is hard to tell it as it is from my point without sounding like some badly done to victim. I don't mean to. I am not a victim. I am lucky. We all have our crosses to bear.

All I am saying is that sometimes it becomes a ginormous load to hold on your shoulders. I wish it had been easier for all - WAS easier for all involved - and, in time, thanks to frank and open discussions like this, it will get easier.

I am lucky I have such a good life. I constantly remind myself that too. I get to live as who I am, and apprecaite it, each day I breathe. Just sometimes it weighs heavy. I hold no monopoly on guilt or pain, I know it. It could be far worse.

anon

aka morose-bitch-at-times-but-often-quite-nice-to-know

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:15 PM

Dear Guest, anon:

Other people`s prejudices or `pet peeves` are NOT your fault. Don`t let that stuff get to your head. Even people who have lighter issues to deal with often feel as you do at times. Find it in your own heart to forgive yourself as you seem to forgive others. My best wishes to you.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:13 PM

And Gina's 02.07 post has been reinstated.

Kitty

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:09 PM

Murray mentions "The other factor is the effect which the transformation is likely (or certain) to have on other family members, and the degree of responsibility which one should assume, or disregard."

I have already made mention that there were people in my life that were affected by decisions I made. I will never be free of guilt for having made those decisions and yet do I regreat who I am? No.

In my case I tried desperately hard to go through each step and not take the next without consulting those close to me that truly mattered. I was still selfish however. I do not live in a vacuum - none of us do - and our actions often have immedaite effects on others near by who have no choice in the matter. This is why when people say how proud I should be of what I have acheived I am always at pains to point out that pride is not the thing I feel the most of. I feel guilt and pain for those who got hurt by the flack I caused. I am fortuante. Those close to me stood by me and took what came but there are still 'protection' issues to many around me and I will defend their place asx best I can with safety in mind for them. Many of those no longer accept me for fear of what may happen in the future because of me. I accept the charge but also do more to save their position than I do my own. I am no 'nice person'. It is simply what they deserve for having once been attached to me through fault of birth.

I do not see you as a bigot. I think you have a genuine struggle to understand what it is makes some people go the 'whole hog', seemingly with no thought for those around them, and you search for answers. It is only what I did when I was going through the whole process. Gender counselling is quite bad. I wasa told many years ago to 'forget my family and move on' by the very team supposed to be helping me. I ignored their advice (demands) almsot to my peril. It took me 8 years to get through a system it takes 2 normally. It had to be done my way. Not theirs. It was/is my life. Not theirs. Some of the advice and demands they make are cruel and totally unreasonable. I fear some do it because they have to survive the system. I can only comment about me.

This has been easier for me than those around me. I have worked on keeping relationships alive that were being killed by my need to be able to live as who I am. I cut a balance. Many cannot manage it and some have the backs of loved ones turned against them too. But then people do that all the time to each other and their children. Broken homes, affairs, divorce and such all take their toll on children. It is them who need looking out for and often that means making a complete break for many.

I am not making any excuses for my selfishness nor the decisions I made. I take the whole responsibility for them and try even now to put things right I made wrong. Guilt is an every day thing of my life. So it should be. I deserve that and see it as my wages often.

I am sorry I happened to many of the people in my life. I am not sorry they happened to me. All I can do is try and limit the damage.

For many they would have been better off attending my funeral than having to know I was doing what I was doing and am what I am. But I also know well what suicide does to those left behind so that was not an option I could take even when I thought about it.

I have not been out all weekend. Between this thread and other things that have been said to me this weekend by various people I have felt quite overwhelmed by it all. The fact is that it all falls to the gender dysphoric person to sort it and deal with it all. It all falls on their shoulders when the real culprits for the damage, the fear and the hate are the bigots and the bullies. I do not have to be safe and careful for those I love because I am a woman. I have to do that because there are people out there who like judging, hurting and messing in others lives. They are the ones who caise the damage. But for now, until society changes fully, I will carry my share of the blame and guilt. After all. It is my decisions that have caused it to happen. QED It has to be my fault.

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Hi, Gina-
There's something wrong with our regular membership registration page. It IS working at our development Website, however - click the following link:
http://dev.mudcat.org/member/EntryForm.cfm

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:59 PM

Thank you Kitty.
Gina

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:49 PM

I was thinking of Gina when I posted on 22 April, but didn't want to say so in case she was unaware of this thread.

Kitty

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:48 PM

I tried to join Mudcat but I couldn't get the registration to work.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:34 PM

I think maybe Gina there may be a suspicion that someone else is posting in your name
Thank you for clarifying for me earlier that the post did, in fact, come from you.

'Em'

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:30 PM

Dick asked a question to start this thread and I answered him in one word, 'Yes' I am baffled as to why my post has been deleted.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:03 PM

When I was much younger, I knew a young man who committed suicide: he was a sensitive, artistic character, and from a stable family. He had girlfriends when at school, but increasing personal difficulties led him to take his own life in his early twenties.

Later, when I learned from a reliable source that he "felt like a woman in a man's body", it made a great deal of sense - as he always seemed exceedingly 'feminine' - but never camp or effeminate.

I still wish that I could have known him/her? better, and could have been a friend at a time of need.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:45 PM

the uk folkscene and sex changes:

Change is a constant. I understand the folkscene changing, but sex--well, this world never ceases to amaze me.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:45 PM

Your posts do you credit, anon, who could help but be moved by your calm and dispassionate reasoning.

As I said before, I don't understand gender euphoria (or is it dysphoria, I forget ...) but I do fully grasp that there are female psyches trapped in male bodies and vice-versa. I also realise that in an ideal world, this would be corrected by elective surgery , hormone treatment, etc etc.

Howsoever, there is another side to the coin imo (in some cases, maybe not in yours ), but certainly in the case to which I alluded in my earlier post, which resulted in my being labelled a bigot, ( which I certainly am not).

The other factor is the effect which the transformation is likely (or certain) to have on other family members, and the degree of responsibility which one should assume, or disregard.

The public official to whom I alluded above has a young son who is still at school, plus two daughters who have left school and are at college. I cannot imagine the hell which the boy is going through at the moment at the hands of his school mates, and I can quite easily envisage a teenage suicide in the near future.

Can we say "selfish"?? Or can we not ?? You tell me.

It's kind of analogous imo to women who decide at the age of 65 that they want to have a baby and spend a fortune on IVF to satisfy their needs, with no thought for the fate of the poor mite who will have to endure a lifetime of ridicule.

It may well be that there are no similar circumstances in your case (I certainly hope not) but, in the same way that I can see where you are coming from, I hope that you can see where I am coming from.

As before, I wish you every happiness.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:13 PM

In my experience when folk come across something, new, novel, different or something they do not understand, they tend to do one of the following:

a) try to get to understand it better or find an explanation (the typical questioning mind who yearns for more knowledge)

or

b) make fun at it
c) denigrate or disparage it
d) hate it or try and harm it.

There are no names I can be called that I have not called myself at some point during my transition. Indeed I still do at times when I am less than pleased with how I look no matter how hard I have tried to just fit in.

Name calling from others often brings with it an amusement over their implied lack of intelligence. They will call you things and say things like they are being so original: like you have never had it said to you at least 100 times before. They will even pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity in being the first one ever to have insulted you that way. They are usually quite smug and, if the insult stops there and does not progress to worse abuse or even threat, one counts oneself lucky to be able to get away from such potential harm.

Coming across someone who has used humour in the arena, who has then gone on to think about it and update their ideas, and then apologise, is quite rare. It is also most welcome and refreshing. If only others could not be the same.

Self depracation is a way of life to me because it often breaks down attacks before they can begin. Truth is I believe half of what is said to me in insults as I often feel that way about myself in any case. That is why I need to merge and fade into the background and, yet, up I will get in a room full of people and sing a song I think they may enjoy. Hiding is quite contrary to engaging the world.

Do you think I may not be built quite right? lol

If that apology was in any way sent toward me it is completely accepted and appreciated. believe me, what you said was nothing close to what is often thrown out and intimiated.

Thank you

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:47 PM

All the best of everything to you. That is my hope--and I am sure it is your own.

If my previous post was offensive to you, and I am certain it may have been, I am truly sorry for that. In the past, I've been known to think humor excuses all. To all of you here at Mudcat, I will strive to improve at this late date.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:07 PM

In answer to Dick's original post, yes. Gina Le Faux