help with Latin. Laudemus virginem

Subject: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 11:17 AM

Last night I worked on a fun song from the 14th C. 'Red Book of Vermell'. I know the general meaning, but I would like to know what each Latin word means. I can guess much of it.

I'm putting the words below, and where it is blank after the dash, I would appreciate it if someone who knows Latin would tell me what that word means.

Laudemus - we praise

virginem - the virgin

mater est - who is mother

et - and

ejus - ?

filius - son?

Ihesus - Jesus

est - is

Plangemus -

scelera

acriter

Sperantes - hope?

in Ihesum - in Jesus

jugiter -

Also, how do I say 'scelera'? (This would be medieval Latin.)

My gang will love this piece, which is a three-part round sung by pilgrims on their way to Santiago in Spain during the middle ages.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

ejus filius= whose son
Plangemus= let us bewail

scelera= sins

acriter= bitterly

Sperantes - hoping

in Ihesum - in Jesus

jugiter - without end

As to pronunciation: conventional pronunciation of Latin varies. Couldn't say. Find a recording?

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 11:40 AM

What Greg said, plus 'laudEmus' means 'let us praise.' 'LaudAmus' would be 'we praise.'
As for the pronunciation, just be consistent. If you use soft g (j) in plangemus, then use soft g in virginem and soft c before e in scelera (shelera). Likewise soft v (w) for virginem use soft j (y) for jugiter. Either way the g in jugiter would be hard.
[Personally I prefer all soft consonants for singing and all hard consonants for classic period poetry.]
The spelling of Ihesus might be a clue that the j is supposed to be hard (like juggle), otherwise why not spell it Jesus? But spelling wasn't standardized for a long time yet... good luck. Sounds like fun.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM

Upon further reflection, the g in jugiter should be the same as the g in virginem.
-G

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM

My, that was fast. Thanks for the helpful responses.

acriter (bitter). That would be related to our 'acrid,' no doubt. And 'plangemus' brings our 'plangent' to mind.

Highlandman, I like your idea of using all soft consonants when singing.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:11 PM

Here's a nifty video of the piece. It would be heck of a job to derive the pronunciations from this warm, thick, vocal soup.

Or should I say gazpacho?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mFnjWf7kQ

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM

Initial J in Latin is normally pronounced as "Y." The only exception I can think of is in thoroughly anglicized pronunciations of (mainly legal) Latin phrases like "jus ad bellum."

The "Ih" of "Ihesus" is a frequent but less-than-usual medieval spelling and most likely reflected the Greek letters "IH" in the Greek spelling.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 10:03 PM

Ihesum is not standard Church Latin - in religious services, it would ordinarily be "Jesum" or "Iesum," since "J" and "I" are equivalent letters in Latin (there was no "J" in early Latin). I see many reference to "Ihesum" on the Internet, and they all seem to be very late medieval Latin. From what I can tell from recordings, all three spellings are pronounced the same way: YAY-soom.

-Joe-

Subject: ADD: Ecce Panis Angelourm
From: mg
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 10:40 PM

ECCE PANIS ANGELORUM

Ecce Panis Angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.
2. In figuris praesignatur,
Cum Isaac immolatur,
Agnus Paschae deputatur,
Datur manna patribus.
3. Bone pastor, panis vere,
Jesu, nostri miserere:
Tu nos pasce, nos tuere,
Tu nos bona fac videre
In terra viventium.
4. Tu qui cuncta scis et vales,
Qui nos pascis hic mortales:
Tuos ibi commensales,
Coheredes et sodales

Here is what I think is the prettiest Latin hymn. Beautiful tune. Not Gregorian chant in case you hear it in Gregorian chant ever. SOrt of a tune the gondaliers would sing I would imagine. mg
Fac sanctorum civium.
Amen.

---

This is the tune. There are all sorts of other tunes on you tube but this is the right one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9DDi64ah9E

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:25 AM

Thanks for the lead, mg. I have downloaded the tune, and it's a charmer.

At church, I usually play something on my recorder during the sign of peace, and this song will be a fine one for that.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM

Just to confuse matters: Medieval Latin scholars generally pronounced Latin according to the rules of their native language. That was because they had no way of knowing how Classical Latin was generally pronounced. Modern Ecclesiatical Latin is pronounced like Italian because the Vatican is in Italy and Western European Latin scholars evnetually accepted its Italian pronunciation as standard.

The reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Latin taught outside the Church is based on language history that was unknown in the Middle Ages.

The point is that an English-speaking cleric in the Middle Ages would likely pronounce Latin as if it were Middle English, which was pretty far from the Italian pronunciation. In such cases, "Ihesus" would indeed be "Jaysoos." (The history of how the letters "I" and "J" were pronounced and why is another story entirely.)

My two cents is that few medieval music fans are ready to hear, without warning, a Latin hymn sung as Middle English.

It would be interesting though.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 01:47 PM

Actually, I doubt if most people could tell the difference between medieval Latin and Middle English. Once you change a e i o u to ah ay ee o oo, little else matters.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

I think we all spoke Latin with an Irish accent. mg

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:40 PM

Not us. We spoke with with a German/Pike County Illinois accent. Drove my Latin teachers absolutely mad!

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: peregrina
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:46 PM

If this is from the Red Book / Llibre Vermell of Montserrat, the vernacular language of the book's users would have been Catalan, not Middle English. I think there's a CD by Jordi Savall of material from this manuscript which includes this piece.

A youtube here
gives some melodies for this piece.

Medieval latin pronunciation varied by region, and was certainly allied to regional accent, but it's not quite true to say that it would have been pronounced by the 'rules' of the regional accent--there were no rules yet. And the inhabitants of England would certainly have been able to distinguish sung Latin from sung English!

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:01 PM

What if we prefer - er - shall we say "non-virgins"?

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:37 PM

You know - Gaudaytay etc!!

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

A much better one-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eZVEOTh4&feature=related

Choral, by Scola Gregoriana Mediolanensis.

I much prefer Monserrat Figueras and Hesperion XX (Jordi Savall). Not found on youtube.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

Linares choral group, Spain, on this one:
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOEY3MPq03LI&NR=1

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 06:08 PM

Should it be "Cognoscemus virginos"?

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:47 AM

Neither of those two recent links works on my computer.

This piece was sung by pilgrims to Santiago, as I mentioned before. They came from all over Europe, and their local accents are probably irrelevant.

In my first post I asked about the meaning of the words, but it's nice to hear from Latin scholars about the pronunciation of unusual words such as 'scelera' and 'jugiter.'

When I sing in a European foreign language, I follow plan A.

1. a e i o u change to ah ay ee oh oo

2. move the action towards the front of the mouth for a crisper effect. (This is good vocal technique in general.)

3. respect changes in consonants, for example, German w = English v, or Spanish j = English h.

It's worked so far.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:21 PM

Leeneia- When you are happy with your translation, would you post both the original and your translation? It would be much appreciated.

The Jordi Savall Libre Vermell recording came out a few years ago. It and several other Hesperion XX recordings have been re-issued in a low-price box set, but the liner notes and translations have been omitted; that is the set I have.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:34 AM

Laudemus virginem mater est et ejus filius Ihesus est. Plangemus scelera acriter Sperantes in Ihesum jugiter.


We praise the Virgin Mother and her son Jesus. Vehemently we mourn our sins, constantly hoping in Jesus.

In my next post, I will put the URL of the site which provided that, along with other lyrics and info you might like, Q.

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:20 PM

This seems to be the program from a concert which featured 'Laudemus Virginem' and similar pieces.

http://www.sarband.de/Programs/Fran%8Dais/FR-Llibreall.html

Subject: RE: help with Latin. Laudemus virginem
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

I remember as a member of the Halle Choir (Manchester UK) preparing for a concert featuring Mozart's Requiem. The guest conductor was Arvid Jansons, and we all had to re-learn our Latin pronunciation... he wanted the German pronunciation (understandably!), which has now all but escaped my memory. John Rust was the choirmaster at the time, circa 1969.

I do remember 'Luceat' (Luceat Eis) had to be pronounce 'lootsayat', which was something of a wrench having pronounced it 'loochayat' until then! If I can remember any more I'll post it, but don't hold yer breath!

The concert was in the Free Trade Hall, and rehearsals were at the Zion Centre in Hulme. I was asked to resign from the (amateur) choir about a year later when I explained that I wouldn't be attending some rehearsals because of my final exams... fancy having to choose between an amateur choir and final exams affecting my future career. Difficult choice!