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Chords: The Rare Ould Times (Pete St. John)

DigiTrad:
DANNY FARRELL
JOHNNY MCGORY
RINGSEND ROSE
ROSIE UP ON MOORE STREET
THE FERRYMAN
THE RARE OULD TIMES
THE YEAR OF THE FRENCH


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Pete St. John - pronunciation? (8)
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Ringsend Rose - 'street Arab's grin' ?? (4)
Lyr Req: Rosie Up in Moore Street (Pete St. John) (20)
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Lyr Req: Danny Farrell (Pete St. John) (19)
Lyr Add: The Ferryman (Pete St. John) (30)
Meaning of words in Danny Farrell (54)
(origins) Origins: The Rare Ould Times (Pete St. John) (48)
Lyr Req: Tramworkers/Jim Larkin (Pete St John) (8)
Lyr Req: Madigan's Lock (Pete St. John) (9)
Lyr Req: Farewell My Derry Love (Pete St. John) (2)
Help: Pete St. John BOOKS: Where? (3)
Lyr Req: I Remember Dublin? / The Rare Ould Times (19)
Lyr/Chords Add: Ringsend Rose (Pete St. John) (12)
Lyr Req: Strawberry Rows? / The Ferryman (St. John (8) (closed)
Lyr Req: 'sweep down to the Liffey' / The Ferryman (6) (closed)


Mandochop 10 Aug 99 - 10:25 AM
alison 10 Aug 99 - 10:28 AM
alison 10 Aug 99 - 10:28 AM
alison 10 Aug 99 - 10:30 AM
Bat Goddess 11 Aug 99 - 07:30 AM
Jeri 11 Aug 99 - 09:00 AM
Jeremiah McCaw 12 Aug 99 - 02:20 AM
Len Wallace 12 Aug 99 - 02:24 AM
Wolfgang 12 Aug 99 - 04:40 AM
UB Ed 02 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,#1 02 Apr 01 - 05:14 PM
MartinRyan 02 Apr 01 - 05:18 PM
MudGuard 20 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Jan 04 - 12:48 PM
Brakn 20 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM
MudGuard 20 Jan 04 - 01:28 PM
Willa 20 Jan 04 - 02:02 PM
JedMarum 18 Jun 04 - 11:22 AM
goodbar 06 Mar 08 - 05:37 PM
Brakn 06 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM
goodbar 06 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM
Big Mick 06 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM
goodbar 07 Mar 08 - 03:16 AM
Brakn 07 Mar 08 - 04:08 AM
Big Mick 07 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 07 Mar 08 - 12:33 PM
Mr Happy 07 Mar 08 - 12:36 PM
PoppaGator 07 Mar 08 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Portugal 18 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 09 - 04:21 PM
Jack Campin 18 Feb 09 - 08:10 PM
DonMeixner 18 Feb 09 - 08:43 PM
caitlin rua 18 Feb 09 - 09:03 PM
Big Mick 19 Feb 09 - 12:38 AM
Tradsinger 19 Feb 09 - 05:34 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Feb 09 - 06:29 AM
Tradsinger 19 Feb 09 - 08:47 AM
jacqui.c 19 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM
Terry McDonald 19 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM
GUEST 19 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM
Big Mick 19 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM
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Subject:
From: Mandochop
Date: 10 Aug 99 - 10:25 AM

I'm looking for lyrics, chords and the tune to a ballad which I'm pretty sure is called "Dublin in the Rare Old Times". The lyric "I remember Dublin in the rare old times.." is repeated as a refrain. If anyone can help me out, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, Rob


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: alison
Date: 10 Aug 99 - 10:28 AM

Hi Rob,

The words and tune are in the database

Rare ould times

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: alison
Date: 10 Aug 99 - 10:28 AM

did I just equal Joe's record for fastest times?

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: alison
Date: 10 Aug 99 - 10:30 AM

Here's an earlier thread with the chords

Rare ould times

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Aug 99 - 07:30 AM

It was recorded on a fairly recent Dubliners CD whose title escapes me (it's at home), but was all Dublin-related songs. I think the title is "The Dubliners Dublin" or something like that. (Jeri, help me out -- it's the CD with "Christ Cathedral" on it.)

Linn the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 99 - 09:00 AM

Aack - Linn, I don't have any Dubliners' CDs.
...several minutes pass...
Whoops, a woman with a search engine is a dangerous thing. It's on two Dubliners albums, 'Together Again' Polydor 2383-545 1979, and 'Dublin' Harmac HM 88 1988.


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Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: THE RARE OULD TIMES (Pete St. John
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 02:20 AM

The link above gives a slightly simplified chord pattern, which works quite well. But I much prefer the original which uses the Am as a passing tone in going down to the F. Give it a shot....


THE RARE OULD TIMES
Pete St. John
Lyrics as recorded by The Dublin City Ramblers on "Dublin City Ramblers Live" (2007)

verse:
  
C F C Am F

C F C G G7

C F C Am F

C F C G7 C


chorus:
C F C Am F

C F C G C


1. Raised on songs and stories, heroes of renown
The passing tales and glories that once was Dublin town
The hallowed halls and houses, the haunting children's rhymes
That once was Dublin city in the rare ould times.

CHORUS: Ring-a-ring-a-rosie, as the light declines
I remember Dublin city in the rare ould times

2. My name it is Sean Dempsey, as Dublin as could be,
Born hard and late in Pimlico, in a house that ceased to be.
By trade I was a cooper, lost out to redundancy.
Like my house that fell to progress, my trade's a memory. (G7)

3. And I courted Peggy Dignan, as pretty as you please,
A rogue and child of Mary, from the rebel Liberties.
I lost her to a student chap with skin as black as coal.
When he took her off to Birmingham, she took away my soul. (G7) CHORUS

4. The years have made me bitter; the gargle's dimmed my brain,
Because Dublin keeps on changing and nothing seems the same.
The Pillar and the Met have gone, the Royal long since pulled down,
As the grey unyielding concrete makes a city of my town. CHORUS

5. Fare thee well, sweet Anna Liffey; I can no longer stay
And watch the new glass cages that spring up along the quay.
My mind's too full of memories, too old to hear new chimes.
I'm a part of what was Dublin in the rare ould times. CHORUS


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Len Wallace
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 02:24 AM

I sing this song a lot, but have made a major change to one lyric.

Instead of singing:

"I lost her to a student lad, with skin as black as coal . .. "

I sing:

"I lost to a student lad with a heart as black as coal..."

I did this years ago playing in Irish pubs in the Detroit area. The pervasivenss of racism amongst some in the audience bothered me and I felt that under those circumstances those words would feed that racism to the unthinking, ignorant few.

Len Wallace


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:40 AM

Yes, Alison, you did equal Joe's record time for a useful link. And with polite words, too. When I go for the two minutes (no success yet) I just type "click" or "here".

Wolfgang


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Subject: Chords Add: THE RARE OULD TIMES (Pete St. John)
From: UB Ed
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM

No guitar in front of me but

(G)Raised on songs and (C)stor(G)ies, heroes of reknown(Em).
(G)The passing tales and (C)glor(G)ies, that (D)once was Dublin town.
(G)The hallowed halls and (C)hous(G)es, the haunting children's rhymes(Em).
(G)That once was part of (C)Dub(G)lin, in the (D)rare old times.

chorus: (G)Ring a ring a (C)Ros(G)ie, as the light declines(Em),
(G)I remember Dublin (C)city in the (D)rare oul' (G)times.

Between the G and Em use the g, F# and E notes on the sixth string on the way down.


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Subject: RE: Cords for Dublin in The Rare Old Times
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:14 PM

What rare auld times, when the Norwegians founded it?


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Subject: RE: Cords for Dublin in The Rare Old Times
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:18 PM

When the "Norwegians" founded it - it wasn't ould!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM

Does anyone have the tune as ABC?

I can't find it, neither at Mudcat nor at http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/findtune

TIA
Andy/MudGuard


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 12:48 PM

The Rare Ould Times at the Digital Tradition Mirror. I see that the DT file still doesn't credit the writer.


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM

"I lost her to a student lad, with skin as black as coal . .. "

I sing:
"I lost to a student chap who looked like Andy Cole, When he took her off to Blackburn..."

It raises a smile sometimes and tells me if anyone is listening.


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:28 PM

I love the Mudcat!

Thanks for the speedy and helpful answer!

Andy/MudGuard


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Subject: RE: Info on 'Dublin in the Rare Old Times'?
From: Willa
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:02 PM

One of my favourite Ossonflags songs; wonder whether it's on PTH's new CD?


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:22 AM

... been digging info on tis song. Thanks to all for their input among the various threads.

I love this song.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: goodbar
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:37 PM

So what's the "skin as black as coal" line supposed to mean? (I'm not saying it's racist, I just want to know)


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Brakn
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

"skin as black as coal" means black skin......


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: goodbar
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

damn. that sounds kinda racist to me in the context.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

I believe that is because you don't live in Ireland. It is not a racist comment in that context.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: goodbar
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:16 AM

That's kind of why I was asking. Can you elaborate?


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Brakn
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 04:08 AM

It's discriptive. Like tanned, freckled, sun burned, white, brown or pink.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

yeah, there is nothing racial about it. It just describes darker coloration, kind of like Mediterranean as opposed to northern European, although that is not quite accurate, but gives you the idea. Remember that Irish folks are a bit over the top in describing things at times.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:33 PM

In dem days, a true Dub would take at least as much offence at his mot runnin' off with a student-type as with "a person of colour"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:36 PM

Well I always sing it 'teeth as black as coal!'


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 02:58 PM

I only heard of this song relatively recently, and liked it pretty well from the very first, but the "skin black as coal" line gave me pause enough to reject the idea of learning to sing and play it myself.

I figured that, in the context of Dublin, it didn't mean much more than that the rival lover was not only a student, but very obviously a foreigner. In the US, on the other hand, there's a whole lot more "baggage" involved.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: GUEST,Portugal
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Could anyone help me out with the fingering of this song? I don't mean the strumming, right the opposite.....

Should it be fingered down and up accordind with he chords?

Thanks
Rui in Portugal


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:21 PM

The line that says ''Skin As Black As Coal'' was explained by Pete St. John recently on the Joe Duffy radio show on R.T.E when the whole show was dedicated to him in recognition of his songwriting.

He said that it was true, he was at a dance in Dublin City and dancing with this young one when she fecked off with an African gentleman. I think it was Cleary's dancehall.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:10 PM

Look at all the reactionary crap on St John's website.

Of course it's racist.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:43 PM

I wouldn't know if Pete St. John is a racist or not. He is a fine song writer. I would say he is observant and aware of changes around him. This song was written quite some time ago. I've been doing it here in the states about 25 years. The band I play in has an audience
of many emigrant Irish who remember the Dublin of their youth and have seen the changed Dublin in trips back home.

My understanding from talking to these friends of mine is it wasn't common until recently, the last 20-30 years, to see people of African descent in the North. Black students at an Irish school must have been very uncommon. This lyric to me is just an example of the change around him, Pete St. John, at the time the song was written.

Ewan Macoll and Peggy Seegers song Hello Friend was written years before this and expresses the line "The Northern Lights are dim against the darkness (color) of your skin, Hello friend I'm glad that you could come,"   

Hardly a racist comment but observent of the same thing. Change in the British Isles. Thats what Dublin In The Rare Old Times is all about. Change we have no way to control.

Or so it seems to me.

Don


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: caitlin rua
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:03 PM

What crap where, Jack? I couldn't find anything racist on his website. Show us. If you mean the line "Finding the face of his city greatly changed he began writing songs in a very distinctive and unique style depicting the social conditions around him", I don't think he's talking about racial issues. (Have you been to Dublin lately?)

Also remember how long ago that song was written. The line would have been simply descriptive and more innocent, without the subtext that is read into it now. Don Meixner's post has got it in one - what he says about the North applies to the Republic too. If the line bothers anyone, just sing "hair as black as coal" or something.

So where is this reactionary crap?

http://www.petestjohn.com/


Pete St. John is a Dubliner... He became deeply involved in the Peace Movement and International Civil Rights before returning to his native city of Dublin in the late 70's.

- - -

Pete St. John is a Director of the Beaumont Foundation with a special interest in Diabetes Research. Pete traveled to the USA in November to successfully launch the Beaumont Medical Research Appeal 2000 USA.
The goal of the Foundation is to raise money in the United States for medical research. The Foundation will provide money for research into a broad range of diseases such as diabetes, arthritis and cancer which affect people accross all ethnic, economic and geographical boundaries... The results of the medical research will benefit people throughout the world.

- - -

Pete has been acknowledged by his peers both at home and abroad with awards of merit from:
        •        The Irish Republic Music Writers
        •        The Irish Association of Songwriters and Composers
        •        The U.S. Irish Cultural Society
        •        The U.S. Brendan Cup Committee
        •        Irish Music Rights Organisation Songwriter of the Year
        •        Beaumont Foundation Cultural Award 2000
        •        Goal/Rwanda Award
        •        The Peace Train '89 Award
        •        Omagh Awareness Award
        •        Stenaline UK Songwriter of the Decade


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:38 AM

Nicely done, Red Kate, and Don, as well. Some folks are so cynical!


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:34 AM

Check out our version on
www.myspace.com/daviesbrenchleydavies

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:29 AM

Link doesn't work, Tradsinger - I just keep getting the Big Bad 404


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:47 AM

Sorry about that. Try this link
http://www.myspace.com/daviesbrenchleydavies.

Then go to sound clip 5.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

Lovely song - I've just managed to learn it and have now seen the verse I didn't have! More brainwork to do.

I never even thought about the 'skin as black as coal' line - it's just a descriptive piece to me, nothing more.


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM

If 'skin as black as coal' is racist, does it mean that 'skin as white as milk' is also racist?


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

I just cannot believe that a post over such a wonderful song as this, has deteriorated into trying to make it seem racially motivated.

Get real, "skin as black as coal" means what it says, to make ANY change in the words reduces the desired effect. If you see any thing in this song that is not "politicaly correct" then it is you who are a racist IMHO of course.

Phil*


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

I'm right there with you, Phil. This whole racist allegation is simply a load of crap. There is not one thing racist in that song, nor is there anything in St. John's site. This is either a troll who is delighting in watching folks dance, or a human being whose life is so miserable that they must look for, and read into, everything to justify their miserable lives.

It is a great song, with a very Irish sensibility. I sing it a great deal, and I have never changed the lyric. It is a descriptor of a fella, and (as Don says) exactly fits into the theme of the song.

Ignore ignorance.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Chords: Dublin in the Rare Old Times
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

> My understanding from talking to these friends of mine is it wasn't common until recently, the last 20-30 years, to see people of African descent in the North. Black students at an Irish school must have been very uncommon. This lyric to me is just an example of the change around him, Pete St. John, at the time the song was written.

Just to add a few words to what Don said: I don't think you can interpret the past in terms of the frame of reference of the present. It's not really the same society anymore. When I first moved to Cork in 1991 (and the song wasn't new then) I did not see a non-white face from one end of the week to the next - and this is the second city of the Republic. The population (not very large overall, remember, on an island nation) was overwhelmingly Caucasian* and Christian. When there's no one nearby who is particularly different, such meanings don't automatically occur to you. You're the only race around.   

Now of course it's another story - our streets are enriched with a variety of food shops (Russian, Polish, African, Middle Eastern), music from street buskers of every nationality, clothes styles, languages on the library shelves and shop signs. But this is a new phenomenon, since I've moved here, and those always bring new awareness with them.   

The fact being lamented is not one of race, it's one of change and loss: his love has left him for someone else, abandoning Dublin along with him. It's one more depletion of his world as he knows it.



- - -
* Interesting sideline: I looked up "Caucasian" in the dictionary which comes pre-loaded on my computer, to make sure I was spelling it correctly, and along with the definition it says: "Often offensive". News to me: I was just trying to be objective. What are you supposed to call it? Anyway, no insult intended, folks.


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