BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 10:06 PM

Do you propose a ban on them too?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: pdq
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:52 PM

"And STILL no one's addressed the dark glasses."

And nobody has addressed the issue of rose-colored glasses, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:47 PM


I find it runs contrary to everything I am proud of and personally value about the labour, work and sacrifices made by prior generations of women, which make life so much less oppressive and difficult for me here today.

I've had enough rows with Emma about this, that I'm ready to howl. I don't want women to cover up- some females might survive to testify the opposite. But what they wear- miniskirt, dungarees or burka- is up to them. Have you asked?

And STILL no one's addressed the dark glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

good post Emma B.

guest999 ... screw Belgium. If that's the route they are taking in making a list of what one can, or cannot wear in the streets .... they have been scratched off on my list of 'port of calls'. Hell, don't want to get arrested for wearing a surgical mask during flu season or something.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

Thank you Q - this is what we are talking about here - NOT a 'veil'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM

A lot of nonsense posted here.
The regulation bars face covering, not the veil (or the kilt, apron, etc. if the face is uncovered).

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:25 PM

MarkS - I find that very sensible. Thanks.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:53 PM

There is an excellent libertarian and Conservative argument against a burka-ban as Dominic Lawson wrote in The Times

"it is absurd — morally and legally — to force women to be feminist against their wishes." and

"It would be analogous to the legislative fiasco of the banning of hunting with hounds, which occurred largely because Labour MPs regarded as deeply offensive the sight of the English gentry dressed in red charging around on horses "

The argument goes that it really is none of our business, nor the government's what people choose to wear but, in fact, as pointed out previously, it's not true that we don't have laws about what people can wear in public (for example the naked rambler) and at a legal demo I attended several people were instructed to remove half face masks by the police and their personal details taken.

It's also possible to make what looks superficially like a convincing feminist case for the burka

This argument goes -
'it protects the woman wearing it from the "objectifying male gaze", it is a response to a culture in which women are judged by appearance and expected to conform to normative standards of dress and grooming, it protects against harassment (well possibly not), it embodies a rejection of the cheapness and pornography of Western societies"……… and so on.

I agree with the observation that such a pseudo-feminist argument for veiling is apt to catch some 'professing liberals' unawares.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown writes

"You people who support the "freedom" to wear the burka, do you think anorexics and drug addicts have the right to choose what they do?

This covering makes women invisible, invalidates their participatory rights and confirms them as evil temptresses.

Does it stop men from raping them? Does it mean they have more respect in the home and enclaves?
Like hell it does. I feel the same fury when I see Orthodox Jewish women in wigs, with their many children, living tightly proscribed lives.

Progressive Muslims come out daily against the burka, and against mothers who bind and swaddle their young girls in preparation for their eventual incarceration which they will accept without a cry – both un-Islamic customs.

Yes, the burka will be used by racists against us.

But while fighting racism we cannot allow ourselves to become apologists for another, abhorrent injustice"

I've discussed this issue with friends and hit the barrier of the 'harm principle' - that is to say that if the wearing of total body and face covering is a voluntary choice (even a political statement for some young single radical women) there's little a liberal state can or should do about it

However Alibhai-Brown's answer (and the French one) - would seem to be that in fact they are harming other people through their choice of dress by making it difficult for more socially restricted women to exercise any autonomy
In addition, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown quotes an incident in which one conspicuously veiled woman provokes a hostile response from other Asians, who are heard to mutter "Stupid women, giving us all a bad name. They should send them back."!

The wearing of the burka is NOT a religious requirement, it is uncomfortable and denies simple social activities like eating out etc
how on earth are you supposed to drive - although I understand Saudi women are not allowed to.

The 'security' argument has already been discussed although no one so far has mentioned the fact that the deprivation of sunlight is bad for health.

The real argument IMO is not one of secularism versus multiculturalism, it comes down to our understanding of what it means to be 'liberal'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: MarkS
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:40 PM

Should be a fairly easy problem to sort out.

1. Anybody can dress however they choose.
2. Nobody is obligated to interact or do buisness with anybody
    who obscures their features.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:31 PM

"the milder versions of veils,"

Mg, I don't think you are describing 'the veil' at all.
African women wear fabulous colourful headscarves, there's no ideologically or religiously based 'concealment' going on there at all. It's adornment, not concealment.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:26 PM

"I would be glad to wear outfits like that in public if it made things safer for younger women.."

It's not true that "immodest dress" incites sex attacks. It's rapists who cause sex attacks. I think it's been proven that most victims of sex assault are normally dressed and covered.

buLL you find sports wraparound sunglasses 'sinister' for different reasons than I (or other women may) do the religious and ideologically motivated full facial and bodily concealment of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:23 PM

Well, Bill, write to Belgium and give em shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM

I find those wrap around sunglasses sinister ... but hey, that's just me.   :)


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:11 PM

I am the opposite. I like seeing women in the milder versions of veils, etc., where they are modestly clothed. A number of refugees from Africa who live in Seattle now wear such clothing..it is quite pretty, in nice patterns and fabric, but very modest and covers the head and sometimes part of the face. I hope no one objects to that. It is so nice to be on a bus with them and not with the women who show way too much..and men too. I would be glad to wear outfits like that in public if it made things safer for younger women..I am not too likely to be the object of much visual ravishment personally (oh please tell me I am much too modest on this ...)mg

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:01 PM

we're not talkin about getting on a plane, or God forbid, interacting with government offices .... this is about what you can and cannot wear walking down a street.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:55 PM

Specifically, in regards the so-called "veil" it personally makes me shudder. I find it sinister. But that's coming from an honest personal perspective as a woman.

I was in Manchester recently, and saw a fabulous modern image of Emeline Pankhurst composed of hundreds of tiny photographs of all kinds of women, it actually brought tears to my eyes it was so affecting.

All I can say is that as much as modern Muslim woman may maintain that it 'liberates' them from men's visual ravishment, as a Western woman, the "veil" deeply troubles me on a raw instinctive level.

I find it runs contrary to everything I am proud of and personally value about the labour, work and sacrifices made by prior generations of women, which make life so much less oppressive and difficult for me here today.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:35 PM

"A Muslim waitress was last week awarded £3,000 for being asked to wear a revealing dress."

What are the details of this case? I'd be interested to know if the "revealing" dress was simply standard uniform for the job, or if it was being pressed upon the waitresses to alter their own clothing to specifically become more "revealing". How revealing is revealing, and what was the job?

The word "revealing" will mean different things to different people, and especially to different cultures and religions.

I've no idea how revealing the dress code was, and different jobs will imply different styles of uniform and dress. But I don't believe that if you choose to take a job, you aught ever to be exempt from donning a uniform for reasons based on *religious* objection to the style of uniform or dress-code.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:24 PM

Oh - sorry - should have added that I would normaly not wear a hat inside but as I was already having to carry 4 drinks, my head seemed a perfectly sensible place to carry my hat!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:22 PM

BTW - Just remembered. Last time I was in the Farmers Arms in Swinton - You probably know it Paul - I was asked to remove my hat at the bar. Again 'for security reasons'. I was affronted and very tempted to tell them I was Jewish and could not. I didn't and, like a good uncomplaining Englishman, removed it and complained profusely later:-) I can fully understand why the people affected are up in arms!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:20 PM

Try getting on an airplane wearing a veil, hoodie, etc. Ain`t gonna happen.

The law in Quebec states that government offices will NOT interact with people who have--for whatever reason--made visual identification impossible. That makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:12 PM

you miss the point Bruce. Belgium is not "asking" it is enforcing.   Custom should not become law anywhere, and that includes Saudi Arabia.

What I am saying is that personally I would honour the clothing customs not for the sake of adhering to a law but out of respect for the custom, by wearing what is appropriate by custom in other countries and by not condemning others for wearing what they wish to wear in my country.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:06 PM

if you ban burkas, why not ban tinted windows on vehicles and dark glasses? why not balaclavas?

I think in some circumstances they should, Paul. I cannot enter my bank wearing my motorcycle crash helmet becuae they need images of me for security reasons. I cannot go in certain shopping centres wuth the hood up on Folk againt Fascism hoodie for the same reason. The veil, as has been pointed out, is not required for religious reasons so why should it be exempt for security purposes? In all othe cases though, I agree with you. There is no reason to ban it from public places just because people do not like it.

There are some very good reasons for it as well. As one female Moslem comedian (is it Shazia Mirza?) points out - It means whole families can share a bus pass:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Monique
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

Yes, this is the "veil" it's about.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:04 PM

Susan, I think we are talking about garments which obscure the face, not which cover the hair. Which the trend to extra-deep hoodies do.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:56 PM

So Jacqui Kennedy's trend setting scarves would be banned for covering her hair and neck? Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:55 PM

Paul Burke, several banks here will not open their doors to people wearing Burkas, full-face helmets, hoodies, and balacalavas. You have to stand in the foyer until the security lets you in. Not all banks. I assume they are reacting to hard experiences.
I have noticed in police-reality TV that the officers demand to see their interviewees faces first.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 02:22 PM

"honouring another's clothing customs whether they are visiting my country or I am visiting theirs"


I agree- but that is what Belgium is doing- asking the visitors to honour Belgium's clothing customs.

There is nothing wrong in honouring SA's and dressing THERE ( in SA) in the manner they want- but why should Belgium be required to tolerate Saudi rules in BELGIUM?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 02:17 PM

I think the only fashion travesty is the baggy, below the ass trouser twat. That and the Burberry plaid gansta rapper suit I once saw in a shop in my home town.

I have no problem with honouring another's clothing customs whether they are visiting my country or I am visiting theirs. But it is not on to make laws about it in any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:57 PM

Let me see... Saudi Arabia can ban women from wearing T-shirts and jeans ( the US National Dress) and there is no problem. But Belgium is racist???



Oh, that's right: Only Western nations are subject to criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:48 PM

gnu ... I knew you would make a reply on that one ! .... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:46 PM

I'm pleased to see that the usual bigots support the Belgian racists, who hate each other so much that they can't put up a government, but can at least agree that they hate a few harmless women more than each other.

No ones answered yet: if you ban burkas, why not ban tinted windows on vehicles and dark glasses? why not balaclavas?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM

Consensus growing on anti-niqab law in Quebec

AFP American Edition | 2010-03-27 22:10:09

Canada's federal government is defending a controversial Quebec bill that seeks to ban Muslim women from wearing face-covering burka and niqab veils in public institutions.

"The law proposed by the Quebec government makes sense," Prime Minister Stephen Harper's spokesman Dimitri Soudas told The Globe and Mail.

But he noted that federal politicians "don't get a vote in provincial assemblies."

The draft bill, presented on Wednesday before the National Assembly of Quebec by Liberal lawmaker Kathleen Weil, the province's justice minister, seeks to ban provincial government employees from wearing the full-face veil at work.

If adopted, the measure would also ban women wearing the burqa or niqab -- veils advocated by ultra-conservative Muslims -- when dealing with provincial services, including educational institutions, private schools receiving government funds, nurseries and health centers.

National Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff has also thrown his support behind the bill.

"I think they have found a good balance," he said about Quebec Premier Jean Charest's proposal.

"We watch the Quebec debate with interest," Ignatieff added on the first day of his party's three-day conference.

He was the first federal leader to openly discuss the debate over wearing a full-face veil in public institutions.

The Parti Quebecois has led opposition to the bill, saying it does not go far enough. The party's leader, Pauline Marois, seeks to also ban the hijab, the most common Muslim veil that covers a woman's hair and neck.

French speaking Quebec's debate comes as France has been caught up in a series of controversies that have highlighted its unease with Islam in a strictly secular society.

President Nicolas Sarkozy's government is drafting legislation to ban wearing of the full Islamic veil and is sponsoring a debate on national identity that has exposed fears about immigration in the country home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:07 PM

sIx... I prefer "the baseball hat, pony tailed women wearing sweat pants". >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:04 PM

I believe France banned such religeous allegiance from their schools. I can buy that, if it pertains to all in displaying of their religeous allegiance.

Belgium is making it illegal to wearing burka in public. Damned scarry law it is.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:52 PM

I thought the French were going down this route too - the basis being that France was a secular state and the display of public badges of religious allegiance was unconstitutional. Has that died as a plan?

How does either affect the Hassidic (and indeed Freemasons)?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:48 PM

Did I not mention twice that I understand and respect the security issues? A full burkha sports many security issues.

So do those huge baggy pants that the teenagers wear...used to conceal guns etc. Although you could conceal a gun, bomb, infectious article under one of the hats the ladies wear to the horse races..or a bowler hat...God knows what could be under those puffy down coats. So I am concerned about security and it has to come first..but some of those lighter veils that some women wear should not be too much of a problem. We have to be smart enough and adult enough to figure out the security issues, preferably before the next bombing, without outlawing the lavendar dresses that might suggest someone is a Mormon out to convert us. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:33 PM

It's all western minded racial discrimination fueled by paranoia. This in itself is very dangerous.

Like saying all 17 year old males walking around with hoodies over their heads are all going to stick up a convenience store.

personally I find females wearing burkas rather feminine, intriguing and exotic ... refreshing to see them, as opposed to the baseball hat, pony tailed women wearing sweat pants that I see so much of around here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: pdq
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:15 PM

...Douglas Murray, director of the think tank The Centre for Social Cohesion (said): "People shouldn't have the right to hide themselves away in society," he says. "Cutting yourself off from society is threatening when we have known terrorists to try to escape wearing a burka. Men who said they had to wear balaclavas would be very unlikely to be allowed into banks or to travel on most public transport. Ask yourself this: can you imagine asking the time or for directions from a woman in a burka?"

To Murray, Sarkozy is showing "moral leadership", unlike the "spineless" British politicians who would never dare to reflect the majority view. To do so would risk accusations of committing an offence against religious belief. As he, as well as many Muslims, have pointed out, the Koran says nothing about how women should dress, apart from calling for modesty. The call to cover up comes from the hadith – interpretations of the Koran written many years after the death of the Prophet, and largely dictated by prevailing Middle Eastern custom.

"The Koran," says Dr Hasan," says that Muslims should respect local customs." In Britain or France that doesn't have to mean wearing bikinis. A Muslim waitress was last week awarded £3,000 for being asked to wear a revealing dress. Those who do cover their faces should be subject to regulation. "A naturist is free to walk around naked at home, but not down Oxford Street," says Murray. "The same should go for the veil."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:03 PM

Surely the Burqua is NOT Demanded by the religion but is purely a Cultural idea from SOME Moslem areas !

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:32 AM

To mg the London "Bomber" who escaped and was finally extradicted from Italy escaped to Europe via the Eurostar through the Channel Tunnel wearing? What was it again? Oh that's right a Bhurka.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:52 AM

Of course, the key to the whole thing is just to stamp out religion: The we can live as one...

Like the Soviets did.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Ralphie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:30 AM

Dear oh dear.
All we are asking for is to be able to see someones face.
Is that too much to ask?
Turbans, Headscarves, Mini skirts, Kilts, Kaftans....whatever.
Absolutely fine.
Not being able to see someones face is rather unsettling.
What/Who lies behind the mask?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: mg
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:44 AM

So who is next? Do they have Mormon girls with their lavender dresses and puffed sleeves? Amish women with their polka dot scarves? Or is that Mennonite? Catholic schoolgirls in their ugly plaid jumpers and white oxford shoes? Hawaaians in mu-mus? I think it is nuts, except for valid security reasons, to make women wear fewer clothes or less covering clothes than they are comfortable with, or that their religion requires of them. Jewish women with wigs? Where does it stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:51 PM

I would suppose that this measure is to make sure that the surveillance cameras that abound in some places are actually of some use!
Banks and other institutions (here, which is not Holland) won't let people in with motorcycle helmets that obscure the face, so I expect this is more of the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM

Of course, the key to the whole thing is just to stamp out religion: The we can live as one...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:04 PM

MG you have a history of anti-sex posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:01 PM

If our teenagers dress like ladies of the evening, no offense to either party, should immigrant teens have to also?

I don't think we have to take off our clothes so others can feel at ease not wearing their's.

I don't think it works the other way. I think modesty should be respected..not so much that other safety and security issues are breached, but so what if someone does not want to look at someone in a beanie or turban? So what? But to tell a young woman that she essentialy has to expose herself, which is what she is raised to feel like she is doing is nuts. Where does it stop? Can nuns not wear their habits? Hare Krishnas not wear orange in case someone gets frightened by their religion?    I don't believe anything goes, but it is crazy to let people take so many of their clothes off that they are indecent but not let them put on more than the average person. And I do respect the fact that it would be easy for a terrorist or bank robber to wear a burka and commit terrible crimes..that is my only concern with this issue. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

Well, before all the usual MC BS bigoted hysteria gets going... angels rush in and all that...

Cultural: When one visits an area where such a practice (whatever that practice is viewed as by the visitors) is the culture, the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" seems good advice.

So when Western women visit an area where wearing such visually blocking costume is the norm, they mostly comply out of respect for that culture - it puts people there at their ease.

So why, when in the West, where the normal culture is to inspire fear and distrust when faces, most especially EYES are concealed (due to DIFFERING HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL reasons), is it so wrong to ask for a little cultural respect in return?

My mum often wore a scarf covering her hair in the 1950s and 60s - it meant that she could go out without needing to spend ages getting her hair 'right', and also was quite 'trendy and fashionable' at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:55 PM

Why burkas, when mirror sunglasses (as worn by rich men's goons as long as I can remember) never elicited a peep of protest? Dark windows on limousines?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:22 PM

At some point there are security issues, with full burkas, veils etc. that could disguise almost anything..and there could be legitimate safety issues around machinery, flames etc., but a simple headscarf, yarmulke, turban etc...are we so intolerant and afraid of religious cooties that we can't handle that?

And spare me rantings about how it subjugates women. We can't sort all that out and some of it is quite voluntary by the women and some affects men more than women, turbans etc...and we should be looking for more modesty in public dress, not less.

It makes me want to go out and get a veil. I did have a scarf on hand at one time to wear if necessary. mg