BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:35 PM

Re my last post.

Possibly, a tactic has been used in this instance which has been used for MANY years in various political systems... make a law which may not or cannot be implemented because the backlash on portions of it debit the whole bill... perhaps?

Done in Canada as routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:32 PM

Gnu- you mean 'private' universities can practice segregation?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

"The order affects both public and private universities..."

"private universities". Well, that seems a tad too far. That is legislating 'religion' beyond the state jurisdiction, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:12 PM

Syria bans full Islamic face veils at universities

         
Albert Aji And Elizabeth A. Kennedy, Associated Press Writers – 2 mins ago

DAMASCUS, Syria – Syria has forbidden the country's students and teachers from wearing the niqab — the full Islamic veil that reveals only a woman's eyes — taking aim at a garment many see as political.

The ban shows a rare point of agreement between Syria's secular, authoritarian government and the democracies of Europe: Both view the niqab as a potentially destabilizing threat.

"We have given directives to all universities to ban niqab-wearing women from registering," a government official in Damascus told The Associated Press on Monday.

The order affects both public and private universities and aims to protect Syria's secular identity, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the issue. Hundreds of primary school teachers who were wearing the niqab at government-run schools were transferred last month to administrative jobs, he added.

The ban, issued Sunday by the Education Ministry, does not affect the hijab, or headscarf, which is far more common in Syria than the niqab's billowing black robes.

Syria is the latest in a string of nations from Europe to the Middle East to weigh in on the veil, perhaps the most visible symbol of conservative Islam. Veils have spread in other secular-leaning Arab countries, such as Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon, with Jordan's government trying to discourage them by playing up reports of robbers who wear veils as masks.

Turkey bans Muslim headscarves in universities, with many saying attempts to allow them in schools amount to an attack on modern Turkey's secular laws.

The issue has been debated across Europe, where France, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands are considering banning the niqab on the grounds it is degrading to women.

Last week, France's lower house of parliament overwhelmingly approved a ban on both the niqab and the burqa, which covers even a woman's eyes, in an effort to define and protect French values — a move that angered many in the country's large Muslim community.

The measure goes before the Senate in September; its biggest hurdle could come when France's constitutional watchdog scrutinizes it later. A controversial 2004 law in France earlier prohibited Muslim headscarves and other "ostentatious" religious symbols in the classrooms of French primary and secondary public schools.

Opponents say such bans violate freedom of religion and personal choice, and will stigmatize all Muslims.

In Damascus, a 19-year-old university student who would give only her first name, Duaa, said she hopes to continue wearing her niqab to classes when the next term begins in the fall, despite the ban.

Otherwise, she said, she will not be able to study.

"The niqab is a religious obligation," said the woman, who would not give her surname because she was uncomfortable speaking out against the ban. "I cannot go without it."

Nadia, a 44-year-old science teacher in Damascus who was reassigned last month because of her veil, said: "Wearing my niqab is a personal decision."

"It reflects my freedom," she said, also declining to give her full name.

In European countries, particularly France, the debate has turned on questions of how to integrate immigrants and balance a minority's rights with secular opinion that the garb is an affront to women.

But in the Middle East — particularly Syria and Egypt, where there have been efforts to ban the niqab in the dorms of public universities — experts say the issue underscores the gulf between the secular elite and largely impoverished lower classes who find solace in religion.

Some observers say the bans also stem in part from fear of dissent.

The niqab is not widespread in Syria, although it has become more common in recent years, a development that has not gone unnoticed by the authoritarian government.

"We are witnessing a rapid income gap growing in Syria — there is a wealthy ostentatious class of people who are making money and wearing European clothes," said Joshua Landis, an American professor and Syria expert who runs a blog called Syria Comment.

The lower classes are feeling the squeeze, he said.

"It's almost inevitable that there's going to be backlash. The worry is that it's going to find its expression in greater Islamic radicalism," Landis said.

Four decades of secular rule under the Baath Party have largely muted sectarian differences in Syria, although the state is quick to quash any dissent. In the 1980s, Syria crushed a bloody campaign by Sunni militants to topple the regime of then-President Hafez Assad.

The veil is linked to Salafism, a movement that models itself on early Islam with a doctrine that is similar to Saudi Arabia's. In the broad spectrum of Islamic thought, Salafism is on the extreme conservative end.

In Gaza, radical Muslim groups encourage women to cover their faces and even conceal the shape of their shoulders by using layers of drapes.

It's a mistake to view the niqab as a "personal freedom," Bassam Qadhi, a Syrian women's rights activist, told local media recently.

"It is rather a declaration of extremism," Qadhi said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 05:30 PM

"Liberation" is evidently defined as "do what we say or we will punish you"...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:56 PM

sIX... I read earlier in the thread that you detest the gubmint making laws regarding clothing. I also read posts by others alluding to the "slippery slope", for instance beards. Some private businesses - shops, malls - prohibit "hoodies" (hooded sweatshirts). What are the Druids and Monks supposed to do?

However, I contend this is about public safety and I believe in "the greater good". It causes no physical harm... only harm in the mind and in the name of religion. And, if beards ever do become a safety issue, I prefer an electric shaver. Of course, the gubmit could make exceptions for peeps who "need" to have a beard for whatever reason. They could create a whole new department for registering beards and issuing FHPs... Facial Hair Permits.

I have said my piece(s). Unless there is sommat new, I am gone, so anyone who wants me to address their posted views should PM me with a heads-up in case I don't get back to this thread in future.

Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:20 PM

Canada has lost many of it's soldiers in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban because they violate human rights by stuffing their women in gunny sacks called burkas! How in the name of God can we then defend those who advocate such repression? Gnu said that "There is no reason to allow religion to subjugate logic and reality... it does nobody harm. Religious bullshit and hatered does EVERYONE harm."
If only we could separate the truth from the bullshit in both the Bible and the Koran, and throw out the garbage. The truth is too many fools believe every word of this dogma.......... a pity!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:14 PM

You don't know that they gang fight? or that they place bombs on planes? Never heard of the Air India bombing? Never heard of drive by shootings in in any cities in Canada amongst this trash?

When I grew up, we didn't have gangs, religious bombings, kids carrying - nay - DISPLAYING - killing knives at school. Didn't have people wearing hats in the Legion unless they paid for a round... because RELIGION was practiced at home and not IMPOSED on others.

Religious bullshit and subjugation is what my forefathers fled from when they came to this country and toiled in the fly infested bog country to scratch a living out of poor soil and snow. Now, it is being brought back to divide and cause fear under the guise of "freedom of worship" and we are told WE are "intolerant".

What a load of bullshit.

Ya wanna hide yer face, in this day and age, hide it somewhere else. It's religious bullshit which has no place in a logical and intelligent society.

Sorry sIx, but I really am at odds with you on this one. Unless you can give me a plausible arguement???

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

"continue their infighting and terrorism"

?????


I don't know what you mean by that .... but anyway, in your own country the chances are you more likely get shot in the crossfire of a gang shootout, get shot in a variety store robbery, get killed by a drunk driver, killed by a jealous lover or accidently shot by a cop mistakenly, than be slaughtered by a terrorist.

Well .... gotta go now, up to city hall ... it's the weekly council meeting ... whew, talk about infighting.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:43 PM

Well, is it a safety issue or not? Isn't that what it boils down to?

Why is it necessary to wear any particular clothing or to carry illegal weapons? Seriously... why is it NECESSARY? Why is it a requirement of countries to bow to the religious "requirements" of immigrants. Immigratns who immigrated to a country where the law on the books stated long before they arrived that carrying their weapons in public is illegal... immigrants who immigrated to a country which had traditions of attire, of uniform in services and..

Oh, what the fuck. Who cares. Let them all come here from far and wide and tell us what to do in the name of their religious bullshit. Let them come here and bring their religious bullshit and hatred and continue their infighting and terrorism. Let them walk around with killing daggers and cover their faces and blow up planes and fly planes into buildings and whatever.

Racist? Paranoid? No... just logical. There is no reason to allow religion to subjugate logic and reality... it does nobody harm. Religious bullshit and hatered does EVERYONE harm. And it has since man invented religion to control and subjugate the stupid.

Divide and conquer. The rich are counting on it. And the sheep are helping while getting sheared.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:06 PM

When a man tells a women what to wear, that's all wrong, but when the government does, that's right?

There are some who believe that all women should go veiled and all men should wear beards, as was compusory under the Taliban - which means that wearing a veil or a beards can certainly be a mark of religious oppression.

So as I said, can we look foprward to a ban on veils being extended into a ban on beards, in the name of freedom from religious oppression. Regardless of the wishes of the people directly concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:15 PM

Certainly not, six. Political for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:51 PM

I should also add ... do you really think this law passed by France and Belgium have "the subjugation of women" in mind ... I think not.

biLL :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:47 PM

the new world order veil

Subject: Lyr Add: YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:41 PM

[chorus]
I saw her today at a reception
A glass of wine in her hand
I knew she would meet her connection
At her feet was her footloose man

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

I saw her today at the reception
A glass of wine in her hand
I knew she was gonna meet her connection
At her feet was her footloose man

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need

Oh yeah, hey hey hey, oh...

And I went down to the demonstration
To get my fair share of abuse
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration
If we don't we're gonna blow a 50-amp fuse"
Sing it to me now...

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need
Oh baby, yeah, yeah!

I went down to the Chelsea drugstore
To get your prescription filled
I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy
And man, did he look pretty ill
We decided that we would have a soda
My favorite flavor, cherry red
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead"
I said to him

You can't always get what you want, no!
You can't always get what you want (tell ya baby)
You can't always get what you want (no)
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need
Oh yes! Woo!

You get what you need--yeah, oh baby!
Oh yeah!

I saw her today at the reception
In her glass was a bleeding man
She was practiced at the art of deception
Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need

You can't always get what you want (no, no baby)
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need, ah yes...



Great to see you pssting, six.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM

The issue is ... what if a woman wants to wear a veil ... hell, what if anyone wants to wear a veil

I quote a post from the CBC website concerning this issue ...

"look out nuns, your next"

yes, I certainly agree that all religions have some seriously harmful shit in 'em, in fact imagine a world without ... well you know the song ... but governments making laws of what we can or cannot wear in public is also very harmful.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:29 PM

Anyone foolish enough to walk into a bank wearing a veil--man or woman--should receive a Darwin Award.

Veils are not about religion. They are about the subjugation of women. Those who rely on the `it`s a religious thing` argument are neglecting to see that all religions have some seriously harmful shit in `em, and it`s a poor defense for something that is pretty stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:10 AM

Some folk's knowledge is contained in their beards - that would be problem!!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM

They'll be making us shave our beards off before long...

Burkhas or beards - there's not all that much difference in principal between banning something and making it compulsory.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:26 AM

As I understand it, the law applies to ALL. Not just women. There are signs at the doors of many banks that state you must remove hats and dark glasses. Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 03:57 PM

Those are Zombies.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 03:49 PM

I think there are close on two million residents of Rome who would disagree with number 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:28 PM

Hate to tell ya Phil .... Rome died out years ago.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Big Phil
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:24 PM

Well done Belgium, well done France, have we got the bottle to do the same. When in Rome etc etc.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:27 PM

It's just a ridiculous law fueled by paranoia.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:21 PM

Does this mean that women in mourning can't veil their faces? I have seen pictures of the Royal family in veils at funerals. Jacqui Kennedy at her husband's funeral. What if a woman chooses to wear a face covering veil, whether she is Muslim or not?

In the 50s and 60s women had to wear head covers in Catholic churches but men did not. Is this still the custom? I remember Jacqui Kennedy wearing a mantilla and starting a fashion rage. Were women repressed by being obliged to wear a head cover?

Rambling again. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:11 PM

veil ban now approved in France

"the government also is seeking to insist that integration is the only path for immigrant minorities"

For human beings to survive as a species, integration cannot be in one direction.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 May 10 - 10:07 AM

..........& then there's blind people, some've whom wear dark specs.

Also some born lacking eyes, what advantage to security scanners?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,The Singer
Date: 05 May 10 - 02:47 AM

On that basis and if it was in the UK, would Morris Dancers get fined for disguising their faces as well as Football Mascots ?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:54 PM

"Police stop Muslim woman wearing veil in Italy":

"A woman visiting a post office in Novara, north-western Italy, has been stopped by police for wearing an Islamic veil covering her face. A police official told the AFP news agency the woman would have to pay a 500-euro (£430) fine...The city is run by the anti-immigration Northern League. "

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:09 PM

"...thinks the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature"

Of course that applies to both "tribes", West as well as East.

However, so far as niqab is concerned, that link I gave to a BBC page presenting the Islamic context, is worth looking at - and one point it makes is "Most scholars, including the four main schools of Islamic jurisprudence, hold the view that niqab is not an obligation."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Micca
Date: 04 May 10 - 01:44 PM

May I offer 2 Quotes? asking what ever happend to No1?
No1 (allegedly said by St Ambrose to Augustine in 4th century)
" When in Rome live as they live in Rome, when elsewhere live as they live elsewhere"
No2 From GB Shaw "Caesar and Cleopatra" with reference to the "pressure to conform" from the muslim Societyon its women.
"CAESAR (recovering his self-possession): Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 10 - 08:25 AM

Surely,whatever laws are passed by and for the people of Belgium need not concern us ??

Cobblers.

Laws passed anywhere in the world concern all the citizens of that world. We are no longer insular in nationality. We have a global economy, global media and global concern for everyone. It's why we stump up the money when disasters occur all over the world. It's why we should all care about each other and it's why it is no longer possible to stop the ideas of one nation from impacting on everyone else. Wars are not caused by caring about what happens in other countries. They are caused by ignorance and not caring.

There are people who seem to believe that the world is not a global village and the old barriers should be put back in place. But the less said about them, the better.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:29 AM

Marnia Lazreg is an Algerian Muslim feminist academic and her mother once wore the veil.
Her book Questioning the Veil. Open Letters to Muslim Women. is carefully reasoned and beautifully written.

She is respectful of Muslim women's own feelings and of their religious desires but argues that the veil (face, head, and full body covering) is not commanded in the Qu'ran;
that it is harmful to women's physical and mental health;
and that it is mainly a political statement about fundamentalism and misogyny.

She has little patience for feminist academics who themselves are not forced to veil and who "play" at imagining or de-constructing the veil as "liberatory" or as a statement of "resistance."

In her last letter, Lazreg implores Muslim women to stop wearing the veil.

"It is a symbol of inequality…it undermines faith… it objectifies women for (reasons of) political propaganda just like advertising in Western society does: one by covering, and the other by exposing womens's bodies."


It has long been said that America and the UK are two countries separated by a common language

After reading some posts in this forum I think that we are often separated by humour too

However, it has also occurred to me that there remains a very real difference between the concept of 'freedom to' and freedom from' especially with regard to some expressions of 'freedom of speech' versus freedom from 'hate speech'

Sheikh Mohammed Tantawi, the leading religious figure of Al-Azhar and regarded by many as Egypt's Imam and Sunni Islam's foremost spiritual authority, was "reportedly angered" when he toured a school in Cairo and saw a teenage girl wearing "niqab" which means that her face was masked or possibly that she was wearing a full head, face, and body covering.

He asked her to remove her veil saying:
"The niqab is a tradition, it has no connection with religion."
The imam instructed the girl, a pupil at a secondary school in Cairo's Madinet Nasr suburb, never to wear the niqab again and promised to issue a fatwa, or religious edict, against its use in schools. The ruling will not affect use of the hijab, the Islamic headscarf worn by most Muslim women in Egypt.
Following the imam's lead, Egypt's minister of higher education is to ban female undergraduates from wearing the niqab from the country's public universities, Cairo's Al-Masri Al-Yom newspaper reported. "

Nevertheless President Obama spoke in Cairo saying it is "important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practising religion as they see fit, for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear".

More often than not it is the mullahs, the fathers, husbands, brothers, and sometimes mothers and grandmothers as Paul pointed out, who impose the dehumanising full-face and body burka on younger women.
An increasing number of young girls, aged four and five are being made to wear the hijab to school in the UK.

History shows that forcing women to cover their beauty began long before Islam and existed even in ancient Persia; the majority of Muslim scholars agree that there is no religious proof that face veils are a required part of Islamic dress for women.

Are all cultural customs protected by 'human rights'?
"Cultural diversity" surely should not trump the dictate for sensory deprivation, social isolation, and various Vitamin D deficiency diseases for its wearer that is the burka

As a leading Islamic Indian scholar said

"Purdah should be in men's eyes, not on women's bodies!"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:23 AM

Surely,whatever laws are passed by and for the people of Belgium need not concern us ?? Or should we,do you think,invade Belgium and use force of arms to alter the status quo ?? Many of you "Catters" aver that you are committed to "Folk Against Fascism" ----well, it doesn't look like to me !! Quite the reverse !!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 10 - 01:37 AM

The burka is extreme, but most clothing that Moslem women wear does not really seem oppressive. I think it's paternalistic to judge it so, unless the women wearing it say they feel oppressed. If they wear it because they want to wear it, who are we to take it away?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:48 PM

I think it is not that men would like to see women in the burka, but that they do not like it and presume other men won't be staring at the women if they are wearing it.

Apart from safety and health issues, if violence arises then that is where the law should step in and hard and deportation should follow whatever other sentence is given.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: mousethief
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:27 AM

Sorcha, you mean "back east in Wyoming". :)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 May 10 - 09:02 AM

Yes, the power of men over women in some sections of Muslim society is terrible- and all too often partially enforced by traditionally- minded older women. And all to often policed by physical and mental violence. But the breaking of that power is unlikely to be made easier if that community is allowed to see itself as victimised and demonised. Much better is the hard work of programs carried out by people of those communities, to make women (especially) aware of their rights, and aware that stepping outside what some see as their communities traditions doesn't have to lead to social isolation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 10 - 07:57 AM

"If my husband forced me to wear nothing but stockings and suspenders in public because it pleases men I could take a case against him. The same applies to Muslim women. This is 2010, not 3AD. Women in Britain are protected by British law, not the law of the land of their parnter."

Regretably it's fine in theory but a lot harder to do in practice, the assorted accounts of Muslim women in the UK who "rebelled" against the family (including some of the court reports of "honour" killings) show that it's not that simple when you are trapped within the culture/community/family.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: akenaton
Date: 03 May 10 - 03:15 AM

I think Emma's example is a bit disingenuous, if the goats had been assigned to the rear of the vehicle, they could quite easily have jumped out and run off!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 10 - 04:19 PM

Out West in Wyoming....short for give away or 'give me away'....freebies with advertising on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 10 - 04:03 PM

Gimme Caps? I've never heard that word! Where do you live?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 10 - 04:01 PM

Just a note of lightness here...Alex, they are GIMME caps! LOL
Rather de rigeur where I live....to be seen in public without your Gimme Cap is to be ostracized at the coffee shop!

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:54 PM

It's not really a "Muslim" veil, is it? It's a Saudi veil, and Saudi Arabia happens to be a majority Muslim country, with a Muslim ruler and laws based on Muslim jurisprudence.

You could call a baseball cap a Christian cap for the same reasons (modulo the religion).

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:46 PM

I can't see how a ban on veils in Belgium or other European countries can in any way help women in Afghanistan like those in Emma B's picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 10 - 01:49 PM

From that link I gave:

"Shaykh Darsh, a prominent UK scholar, did not believe that the niqab was necessary, or even recommended by the Prophet for women to wear. But if you were going to argue that niqab was a recommended act, he explained his opinion for wearing niqab in this country in the following way:

    * Some people believe that niqab is recommended (sunnah)
    * Everybody believes that inviting people to Islam (da'wah) is obligatory (fardh)
    * The niqab is often a very significant barrier to da'wah in the West where the concept of face covering has never been known
    * If a recommended act is a barrier to an obligatory act, one must not sacrifice the fardh for the sunnah."


"Whatever is not forbidden is compuslory, whatever is not compulsory is forbidden."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:55 PM

great photos meself and highly appropiate for your climate but, for 45 degrees celsius, would you really like to be wearing this ?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:45 PM

Paul I have never disagreed that for some independent women the wearing of the burka is indeed a 'political' statement it's the pressure that that puts on more vulnerable Muslim women that concerns me as you know from our discussions on this subject

The authorities in France estimated that approximately 2,000 women out of Western Europe's largest population of Muslims, estimated at about 5 million wore either a burka of niqab
This is a very marginal albeit growing group and initially led me to ponder the expression 'de minimis non curat lex' when considering a legal ban

I don't believe it is possible however to ignore or dismiss the voices and experiences of groups like Ni Putes, Ni Soumises — Not Prostitutes, Not Submissive — an outspoken group fighting to improve the lot of Muslim women and girls in poor areas in France whose leader Sihem Habchi appeared as the first witness before the French parliamentary group studying Islamic clothing such as burqas and niqabs last year

Habchi was described as speaking passionately 'of her family roots in the former French colony of mostly Muslim Algeria, and how France needs to do more to protect women and root out feelings of segregation.'

"The survival of many young women depends on" new laws to protect them, she said, and full-body veils contribute to "the separation of populations."

So who are the women wearing the burka?

Danish researchers who interviewed women who wore these all covering garments found that most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts

Andrew Brown editor of Cif Belief reporting these findings concludes that 'this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society'

MaGrath suggests Saudi tourists :) certainly it is a requirement that is enforced in that country

For an example of how women are regarded there is an interesting insight from an Australian couple who, as health workers, lived and worked in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia from June 1993 to December 1998.

"One day in about 1994, my wife and I were walking down one of the main streets in Riyadh. It was about 45 degrees celsius, which for you US citizens, about 115 F or so? We saw a twin cab utility truck (with front seat, back seats and a tray out back) coming towards us and this was the configuration of the passengers...

Father and son were in the front seat in airconditioned comfort.
Two goats were sitting up in the backseat also enjoying airconditioned comfort.
Two adult females wearing head to toe abaya, gloves and veils were seated on the burning metal tray outside in the searing heat of the back of the Ute.

Our jaws dropped and we looked at each other, not knowing whether to laugh or cry. That's the level of respect afforded women by some in the magic Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Goats are apparently treated better in some circumstances.

I would like to point out that sometimes the line between religious laws and cultural tradition is blurred.
For example, my understanding about veiling is that it's a cultural dictum and not a religious issue. The Koran states that women AND men should dress modestly. The veil is a cultural issue superimposed over the religious conservatism of the strict Islamic state. There is a Muslim story about Mohammed's wives being hidden behind a veil, but in the context of the story, it meant a curtain inside their residence and not a face veil."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim veil ban in Belgium
From: meself
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:39 PM

I've been trying to keep out of this, but I feel that a Canadian perspective is needed:

menacing

threatening

scary

just wrong

criminal

intolerable