BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:32 PM

Amos,

"1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS."
"

Note the law restricts based on "overthrow".

"Amos: "Furthermore, the noble tradition of CIVIL disobedience SHOULD be taught and not mashed into the same category as sedition. You trteads a very slippery slope when you try and make indpendent speech into seditious speech. Just sayin'. Civil disobedience does not advocate overthrow. Just change."

So, you have stated that YOU support the intent of the law. The law DOES NOT put civil disobedience into the same class as sedition, regardless of your claims. It SPECIFIES "OVERTHROW".

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:47 PM

Bruce:

Cool down, pal. I was addressing the great PDQ, who said "Having teachers and guest speakers advocate civil disobedience against the US government and/or hatred of another race is also wrong and will soon be illegal, at least in the state of Arizona.".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:50 PM

Mousethief and Bobert,

NO. THIS law is the one under discussion.

Arizona is not Texas.

IF the classes are open to ALL students, as are the ones YOU claim are inaccurate, then they are legal- REGARDLESS of the viewpoint ( unless they PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE, OR ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.)

NOT at all what you have stated. The "law" as YOU have stated is objectionable-BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE ARIZONA LAW STATES.

You don't get to change reality to make it what you want to object to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM

Amos,

"Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods and the Crips to UCSD.
"


I think rather that it should be:

Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods or the Crips to the Mafia.


Comment on the FACT that Obama has has 1/4th the press conferences that Bush did in his first year? So much for transparency.

I have yet to see you criticise Obama for those actions that you criticised Bush for, that Obama has continued or increased.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:06 PM

And the POS law gives the power to decide that a teacher is talking of overthow simply because some jackass says so.

Were I teaching I would suggset that we are possibly in need of another revolution. So would many of our "founding fathers" who never expected the Constitution to be a document for the ages and that it would maended when it could be and rewritten when it should be to change with the times.   That's a subject for discussion and would help open the minds of those who see history as a bore. Is it sedition?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:12 PM

There are things that people choose to believe, and there are facts. A number of posters on this thread just don't want to muddle their heads with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:15 PM

They don't need facts, they have Liberalism. It's their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:19 PM

I think it goes beyon Liberalism, pdq. They get notions in their heads that seemed to make sense 30 years ago, and they refuse to face the reality of today.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:34 PM

Spaw,

"and rewritten when it should be to change with the times.   That's a subject for discussion "

I have no problem with any LAWFULL attempt to change the government- BY THE MEANS PROVIDED in the Constitution.

A pity more here, and in this administration, do not understand that possibility, and insist on bypassing those means. Or perhaps it is just that they know they do NOT have the required support to do it legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Amos,

"The law is badly worded, IMHO, and is not actually going to improve things."

And the Healthcare Bill???? MOST of the country thought it was badly worded and is not actually going to improve things, but I didn't see you allowing THAT as a reason to oppose it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:43 PM

BB, I think you left out the part about "ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP".

I am liberal. I am open-handed, open-minded and tolerant of other opinions. I favor reforms that result in individual freedom. I also believe that gun ownership isn't inherently evil, that immigration should be tightly controlled and that people in this country should speak English. I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than Glen Beck.

I also believe in facts, but I really haven't seen many here. Since this law doesn't go into effect until July, at which time the school year will be over, perhaps we should all put this on hold until it can be seen how, or if, it is going to be enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:54 PM

Art,

"I am liberal. I am open-handed, open-minded and tolerant of other opinions. I favor reforms that result in individual freedom. I also believe that gun ownership isn't inherently evil, that immigration should be tightly controlled and that people in this country should speak English. I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than Glen Beck."

No problem with any of that, but I might have said "I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than by the Obama administration."

Please note that I did post the entire law ( clickie, at least) to allow each of us to read it and make up our own minds. Far more here have told me what to believe than I have told to go read the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:06 PM

Bruce:

You continue to obdurately ignore the differences. My words stand, and what you think I SHOULD have said has no bearing on my opinion. Furthermore, I will criticize when I see something meriting criticism and feel like providing criticism, noit because you are keeping a cross-eyed scorecard.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:19 PM

Amos,

"I see something meriting criticism "

And when will you bother to look?



There are none so blind as those who will not see.


You have looked towards Obama through painted-over glasses, and see only the reflection of your own eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Is Obama an anagram for Brewer? Somehow I thought we were talking about a law in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:33 PM

Art,

My post was in reply to

From: Amos - PM
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:06 PM


HIS reply to my

Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

on Amos's
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:49 AM

On MY
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:22 PM


so the topic of the Obama Adminisrtrations malfeasance is a side issue that we have been pushing back and forth.



"malfeasance: wrongdoing or misconduct especially by a public official"

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:34 PM

sorry.

Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM
should be after
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:51 PM

"They (liberals) get notions in their heads that seemed to make sense 30 years ago, and they refuse to face the reality of today." ~ Rigs

30 years? Actually, most of the people here on Mudcat think they are still living in 1963 with Martin Luther King saying "I Have a Dream."

Fact is, if you really judge all people by the content of their character, many Blacks and Mexican also fail to "measure up", not just White people as the Liberal orthodoxy would have you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 03:31 PM

Well, I don`t like anybody very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:21 PM

Well I love humanity, It's people I can't stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:33 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnzn2KT7JE

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 05:43 PM

This has turned into a reactionary love fest. It's so cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 May 10 - 05:56 PM

Hey, Spaw, we've only got two of the Three Stooges ranting on this thread- Where's Douggie?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Greg F. must be Curly!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Doug's a resident of Arizona- "The Shithole State" isn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:04 PM

Arizona is mostly known for its holes in the ground. Meteor Crater, Grand Canyon, Window Rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:29 PM

A quote from the article:

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group.

Let's break that down:

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government . . .

What's wrong with that?

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which * * * promote resentment toward a race or class of people . . .

Where's the problem with that?

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which * * * are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group.

If that means the classes are intended (or applied) for ONLY the particular group, as seems to be inferred, what's the trouble with prohibiting that, especially but not only if the other two clauses are present?

Seems to me that prohibiting those three things (or any of those three things separately) is salutary.

****

And someone (I forget who, and can't find it right now) said that many teachers in ethnic studies state they don't do those things. FINE! In that case the law doesn't apply to them and their classes.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:48 PM

Dave, the problem, IMHO, is that if any of those elements are present, the class is prohibited. In other words, if a class doesn't advocate overthrow of the government, doesn't promote resentment toward others, doesn't advocate racial solidarity but is designed primarily for students from a specific ethnic group, than it is verboten. I don't think anyone would deny that classes in, say, Black history are designed for a specific group, although they are not (and have not been in Arizona) officially restricted to that group.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:58 PM

The class doesn't promote those things, some instructors do, and those students who do not fit into the group know better than to venture in there.

                Again, this is a small minority of instructors. Those people can either change their agenda--or at least not advocate in a public classroom--of find something else to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:16 PM

Art,

So whites should not learn Black History?????

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:46 PM

re "classes in, say, Black history are designed for a specific group,"

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:52 PM

AND, the winner is


























Beetlebomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:56 PM

LOLOL.... didn't know anyone still remembered Beetlebomb...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:09 PM

Until we had a thread on it, I thought it was "feedlebomb." I guess it's actually "Beadlebaum."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:09 PM

"Every eye is glued onto that car. It looks very funny with all those eyes glued on it."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:25 PM

She was only a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:02 PM

I was looking for the "bearded bruce" comment about teaching Black History, but I can't find it now.

          I think anyone who even casually thought about it would agree that a black teacher teaching Black History would find it more rewarding and maybe a little more challenging if he/she had students from other-than-black backgrounds it the classroom. I would think the students would find a course of this nature very rewarding, especially if they had a different background. The teacher would be producing a much larger footprint than he/she would if he/she were teaching only to students of the same ethnic background--my opinion.

          Further, I would think that this is the kind of education that school boards and superintendents would want to promote. A similar cultural enrichment could be found in the teaching of Chicano History and Native American history.

          I'm hopeful that this is the kind of program that "Ethnic Studies" could develop into.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:05 PM

Why not teach American History rather than American WASP Mythology???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:37 PM

Bobert, I suspect teaching history is something you know a lot more about than I do. I'm not sure about not teaching WASP Mythology, at least to some exent, though it would depend on the age group. I would be careful about putting material into curriculum that students don't have the background to grasp--expecting 8 year olds to understand the "Dred Scott" decision, for instance, and all of the ramifications of that.

            We could teach that Justice Stevens was the last WASP on the Supreme Court, and see how children react to that.

            In the end, I think educators would be more successful if they considered context as well as content. There are probably a number of Robin Hoods throughout history in a large number of cultures, but not to teach Robin Hood because he is a WASP tradition--I know he preceded the reformation--seems like a mistake to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 10 - 07:58 AM

What, Rigs??? Kids not understanding the social and human aspects of human suffering as a result of slavery at 8 years old??? Okay, maybe they won't connect as much as an older kid but if we are unwilling to tell the truth to the 8 year old then what age??? And then that kid is going to ask themselves, "Why didn't they tell us that before??? Waht else that they have told us is a lie???" Education isn't supposed to be ablut implanting mythology into people heads... WQe have far too much mythology in people's heads as it is...

Tell tthe children the truth!!! Their brainwashed parents might not be able to handle it but kids can...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 09:01 AM

You might be right, Bobert. I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to tell lies:

                   But take this one, for instance. You could tell a class of 8 year olds that sometime after the Revolutionary War George Washington freed his slaves, but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves. The reality of the situation was, Jefferson's estate was in a state of receivership, and slaves were property, and they were part of the collateral of the estate, so Jefferson couldn't free them even if he wanted to.

                   There are a number of adults who think Jefferson was a bad guy for not freeing his slaves today. And that brings you into the realm of trying to explain to 8 year olds about different social values and perceptions of the 18th century.

                            It gets complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 10 - 11:34 AM

"We could teach that Justice Stevens was the last WASP on the Supreme Court," Rig

Don't raise an alarm. Justices get old and eventually die. More WASPs will be appointed in time.

How do you spell Jerk?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 May 10 - 11:45 AM

The reason history repeats itself is that historians repeat each other. I don`t know to whom that quote should be attributed, but he or she hit the nail squarely and fairly. I`d like to see the genocide practised on Native North Americans receive more than a footnote in high school texts. (That with reference to the Beotucks in Newfoundland, also.) Way too much history is ``White``washed`. I didn`t buy it as a student, and I didn`t buy it as a teacher. Equally, I would like to see Black history replete with instances of the genocide practised by Black tribal groups on each other. I would like to see the myth of scalping as being a European introduction when in fact Native peoples had been doing it prior to the arrival of Europeans. Basically, I`m tired of reading bullshit history. However, when I suggested that perhaps the willing help of Ukrainians and Poles to kill Jews during WW II should be noted, I was met by a solid wall of silence by teachers and government people because the province I taught in has a large Ukrainian and Polish population. Equally, when I suggested that Gaza was and is a disgrace perpetrated by Israel and that the Arabs did little to alleviate the situation I was again met again by a wall of silence.

Meanwhile, kids watch thousands of simulated killings on TV every year and the warm shit keeps piling.

I wish the students and teachers of Arizona lotsa luck. The corporate view of education is a reality. Kids in school have become about money and bottom lines.

The most (IMO) important elections that occur are those to form school boards. Guess what. In many school districts people have to be begged to run. And people have to be begged to vote.

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Have a nice day all.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 04:30 PM

"How do you spell Jerk?"


             E-M-A-N-U-E-L

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:22 PM

Nope. Wrong guess, Rig

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:50 PM

...but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves

As long as we're discussing not teaching lies, Thomas Jefferson DID free some of his many slaves during his lifetime and several more by will.

And as long as we're talking about not teaching WASP mythology and not teaching coursees favoring one group, let's drop "The Lost Cause" mythology, the "Civil War Was Fought For States' Rights" idiocy & the rest of the white supremecist lies about the Civil War still in the curriculum in many places- likely including Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:57 PM

Arizona law targeting ethnic studies?!, is simply not true.


If you are studying white people there is no ban whatsoever.
On the other hand if a public school in Arizona devotes any time to Black history month, there will be hearings, investigations, determinations and retribution.

All in all it is very white of the lawmakers of Arizona to accomodate the white power interest groups in Arizona with such gusto.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 10 - 06:08 PM

Civil War?

In NYS it was called the War between the States and in parochial schools it was called the War of Northern Aggresion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 06:33 PM

This is part of what Wikipedia says about Thomas Jefferson and slaves:


    "Jefferson was an outspoken abolitionist, but he owned many slaves over his lifetime. Although these facts seem baffling, biographers point out that Jefferson was deeply in debt and had encumbered his slaves by notes and mortgages; he could not free them until he was free of debt, which never happened...

    "The downturn in land prices after 1819 pushed Jefferson further into debt. Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves (two, his alleged mixed-race sons) and petitioned the legislature to allow them to stay in Virginia. After his death, his family sold the remainder of the slaves by auction on the lawn of his estate[94] to settle his high debts."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 09:56 AM

And as usual, Rig, Blog-O-Pedia is wrong - in both the material it presents and in the material it leaves out.

Would you like me to post a bibliography of factual works on TJ?

Ow do you want to persist in your fantasy?