BS: A well balanced fair budget! (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:38 AM

Well-said Backwoodsman. The benefits system is there as a safety net to ensure that those who are unable, for whatever reason, to be self-sufficient in terms of income generation, have the basic necessities. The wealthy also enjoy substantial benefits from the tax system. This is paid for by everyone.

I agree that there are a few benefit scroungers but I suspect that there infinitely more who, with the collusion of accountants and tax lawyers, are avoiding/evading paying tax which they can easily afford and are, therefore, defrauding the rest of us. Now, who are the real villains?

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:28 AM

Bloody Hell!!
Better get out while we're ahead!   :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:21 AM

Did I just say that LOL :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM

BWM
I agree

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM

Arthur, I agree that a mess was left and it has to be sorted out.

Just a shame that people like you and I (and others, some much worse-off than us) have to pay for the unholy mess caused by reckless, selfish and greedy people who were already rich by anyone's standards and who, despite being at the top of what should be an honorable and trustworthy profession, proved that they are utterly unscrupulous to the point of criminality.

It's all very well for Tory supporters on here to decry benefits scroungers and gurgle with unbridled joy at the news that those benefits are to be cut, but whose sins are worse - the single mum claiming benefit to pay for her kids' food and clothes, or the banker running his employer (and ultimately the country) into the ground to get millions in bonuses to pay for his luxury yacht or his villa in the West Indies?

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:09 AM

It was caused by tha the-government being forced into bailing out huge banking corporations which had been grossly mis-managed by obscenely-paid and -bonused managers. And of which party, I wonder, are those obscenely-paid and -bonused managers and their businesses natural supporters and paymasters?


Hideous people - and I can tell you that certain banks are paying salaries of £46k for internships - work experience!!!! for Oxbridge students.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 08:34 AM

You won't be able to judge this budget till October. That's when you find out what the (25% over 4 years) cuts mean in terms of money in your pocket. When you find out what you have to pay for that you didn't before. How much extra they'll charge you for your prescriptions. How many services will simply disappear.

nick

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM

Maybe I should change that to The Labour party have passed on a huge debt, rather than have created.

However, we are all now suffering the consequences and we have to get on with it. Blame who you like, but it isn't going to get us anywhere.

The country voted the Condoms in, or decided that they had enough of Labour. That is democracy as such. We now have to see if the condoms can turn things around.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 08:03 AM

"That debt was not created by the Condoms, but by Labour."

Drivel.

It was caused by tha the-government being forced into bailing out huge banking corporations which had been grossly mis-managed by obscenely-paid and -bonused managers. And of which party, I wonder, are those obscenely-paid and -bonused managers and their businesses natural supporters and paymasters?

Short-term, or selective, memory-loss there?

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM

Emma. Stop whinging.
The country has a very serious debt, or hadn't you noticed. That debt was not created by the Condoms, but by Labour.
Consequently we all have to suffer by it.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:59 AM

I would like to know where I could get in on that £10,000 Un declared income !
Before the Economic crash , the best year I had as a musician I pulled in nearly £7,000 , ALL declared and tax paid B T W !

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

'That means we all have to pull together.' - well not exactly.....

The Treasury reckons in April 2012 we'll be on AVERAGE about £400 a year worse off as a result of all measures announced in the budget.
That ranges from £200 worse off for the poorest tenth, and £1,600 for the richest tenth.

Another way to look at this: how much people lose as a percentage of their incomes – from the poorest 10 per cent of the population to the richest 10 per cent.

The top 20 per cent of the country, those earning above £38,400 do lose the most as a share of their income – so that's progressive.
BUT it's the bottom 10 per cent – the poorest people in the UK, earning below £14,200, who are the next biggest losers, on the Treasury's own figures

VAT a 'regressive' tax

The richest 10% pay one in every 25 pounds of their income in VAT; the poorest 10% pay one in every seven pounds as VAT (Source: Office of National Statistics)

If however we take instead disposable income (after direct taxes have been levied), the poorest 10% are in fact paying a higher proportion (one pound in six) in VAT - an even more striking impact -while the richest 10% are paying one in nineteen pounds.
That again shows how the impact of VAT is very regressive.

Some items are NOT 'luxuries' a family caring for an elderly incontinent member or young children have as great, if not more need, for a washing machine for example

Benefit changes

What sounds a relatively technical change in how benefits were uprated - using Consumer Price Inflation rather than Retail Price Index - would be a major "stealth cut", saving £6 billion on benefits but significantly increasing income inequality, as those on benefits fall further behind average earnings.
It has the potential to be the most significant welfare change in the budget in the long-term.

"The impact from one year to the next won't be huge, but played out over many years this will have a dramatic effect in increasing inequality in society – just as it did in the 1980s, when Margaret Thatcher broke the earnings link for many benefits.

"Many low-income households are reliant on benefits and tax credits for a significant proportion of their income. Reducing the rate at which these benefits increase means the income of the poorest households will fall further and further behind everyone else."

Tim Horton Fabian Society Research Director

Income Tax

The increase in the income tax threshold will do nothing for the millions who don't earn enough to pay income tax.
Three million households in the poorest quarter of the population will see no gain at all from this tax cut – including pensioners, the sick, the unemployed and parents in low-paid part-time work.

Yet ALL these groups will be hammered by the VAT increase!


Additionally, the budget included the announcement that the Savings Gateway, due to be introduced next month, has been cut.
This actually 'progressive' scheme aimed to support people of working age on lower incomes**. The Government would have added 50 pence for each £1 saved into Saving Gateway accounts.

For a Government that claims to be keen to promote hard work and to reward savers this is a slap in the face

**income support;
jobseeker's allowance;
incapacity benefit and employment and support allowance;
severe disablement allowance;
working tax credit (with income below a specified level);
and child tax credit (with income below a specified level).
Recipients of carer's allowance will also be eligble.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:47 AM

"Undeclared cash income - say £10,000

42" plasma TV
Nike trainers for the kids
2 weeks in the Canaries

Yes - it's a poor life!!! "

You've written some shite in your life Boko, but that beats everything. Get out of your Walter Mitty daydream in your Croydon bedsit now and again and find out the reality of living on a sink estate in an inner city. Twat!

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:25 AM

We are all in the fertiliser, whether you are Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem etc.

We have a huge debt and we have to get it sorted as a country. That means we all have to pull together.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:07 AM

Let's see, married with 4 children -

Child tax credits   £12,000
Child Benefit       £ 3,000
Housing benefit    £???
Unemployment benefit £3,400
Undeclared cash income - say £10,000

Free school lunches
Free optician services
Discount on Council tax

42" plasma TV
Nike trainers for the kids
2 weeks in the Canaries

Yes - it's a poor life!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM

Here we go again....the blame game....divide and rule.

You all know what went wrong, you were well shafted by the system...they made billions then when it all went arse up you and I paid for their crimes.....and we will be paying for quite a while!

This is not about Labour v Conservative.....Blair and Brown presided over the worst excesses, being fucked by Labour is no more pleasant than being fucked by the Tories.

Anyone with half a brain should be able to see the flaws by now.

In the words of Eric Bogle "It'll all happen again and again and again!"

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 03:14 AM

"and not claim so much in benefits, and get on with it."

I assume that, in this spirit of 'let's all pull together' you won't be caliming your benefits - such as tax relief on pension contributions. After all, what's sauce for the goose......

Now what nerve has that touched?

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 02:49 AM

Not a tory budget anyway.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM

The points made about personal spending as a proportion of income are tediously obvious and very true, but the fact remains that richer people generally spend more, and consequently are a greater source of VAT as individuals than poor people. That's a good thing, as far as I can see. The overall wealth of the individual is a separate issue entirely and not one I expected this budget to address.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:08 PM

Hmmmmm! will try again
Bonzo....what a Bozo!! Are you just having a laugh, or amusing yourself by pressing buttons that always get a reaction. Why???. Being poor and increasingly hopeless just aint funny.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM

What happened to my message?

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

All the feckin tory's out in support I see, we already knew who you all are.

Liberals are making sure they will never get elected.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM

I feel SO sorry for the people who will have to cut back to a Fifty Pound bottle of wine when theyy go out for a meal , instead of the Hunded Pound bottle they are used to .

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:58 PM

Touched a nerve again I see!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

Bonzo, can you read? The poor will not have to cut back "like the rest". They will have to cut back more of their spending because they have no option but to spend all of their income> Can you even add up, much less do subtraction? When the tumbrils come I will enjoy your place in them.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

How to fix the budget deficit boils down to how much inequality we accept in society - as I've suggested in many a poem, I think our present level is revolting.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

20% VAT is too much.

Anyone who says that they accept it has no idea what low income means.

Its disgusting.

The idea that 20% VAT hits all equally is an illusion.

For those who spend 100% of their income on essentials it raises the poverty bar that little bit more, so that they have to makke unreasonable basic survival choices on a dily basis.

For those who have a load left over to save or to spend on luxuries, VAT means a choice between a porsche or a BMW Z3.



20% VAT is a deeply unfair tax and I can't wait for Clegg to reap his just desserts in 2015.


I suppose they'll call poor people sinking under the poverty bar somthing unhuman like "Colateral Damage" ...

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:16 PM

The "poor" will simply have to cut back like the rest of us, and not drop so many babies, and not claim so much in benefits, and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

'Stuart Adam of the Institute for Fiscal Studies has produced research that shows increases in VAT hits the poorest 20% of society hardest when it comes to wages, unsurprisingly. But looked at by spending, a rise hurts the richest most. Still, this will come as little comfort to poor, big families.

A government that seriously wanted to minimise the harm done to the poor could offset a rise in VAT with increased benefits, although I wouldn't bet on that coming along'

Aditya Chakrabortty writing last Friday

Chakrabortty admits that a VAT "cannot be called progressive" (mainly because it's unambiguously regressive), but defends the tax on the basis that "it is not the most regressive tax I can think of" - identifying VAT exemptions for food and children's clothing as making it less regressive than it might otherwise be, but without actually identifying a tax that is more regressive.

He then argues that because the rich have a lot more money to spend than the poor, "looked at by spending, a rise hurts the richest most".

An interesting alternative view from American Aaron Larson .....

"It would be interesting, by the author's thesis, to crunch the numbers a different way - would the poor be better off if the exemptions were eliminated and the VAT reached food and children's clothes?
It would make the tax, on its face, more regressive - but would it increase the tax burden on the poor to the same degree as the predicted increase "to as much as 20%"?
If not, given the author's argument that the rich buy more stuff - certainly, on the whole, more expensive children's clothing and food - he might even be able to argue that "looked at by spending" the elimination of those exemptions is progressive.

Yes, with a VAT we can not only look forward to higher taxes, and VAT increases as a source of revenue that's perhaps the least offensive to the nation's wealthy interests,

WE CAN LOOK FORWARD TO ANALYSTS TURNING CARTWHEELS TO EXPLAIN HOW LATER INCREASES ARE FAIR BECAUSE THE RICH HAVE SO MUCH MORE MONEY TO SPEND THAN THE POOR."

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

No, you do not understand the impact of VAT. It is not rocket science. Try thinking not saluting. The rich have the choice of whether to spend or save. The poor have no choice. They have no margin to save. Therefore apart from zero rated items the entire expenditure of the poor (which equals or exceeds their entire income) is taxed. For the rich the tax on their larger incomes is voluntary. That is why VAT is a regressive tax.

I'm waiting for someone authoritative to do the sums, but I do not see how this budget can achieve the reduction in PSBR that the Cond-Doms were saying was necessary.

Still, at least I can still afford gin.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

>>The rich buy more stuff, so they pay more VAT - seems straightforward to me. I've always resented and regarded VAT as a form of robbery, but at least there's an aspect of even-handedness to it.<<

Exactly my viewpoint Smokey

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

It could have been a lot better.

20% vat hits the poorest sector in the pocket...... to the rich that is a drop in the ocean....

The rich buy more stuff, so they pay more VAT - seems straightforward to me. I've always resented and regarded VAT as a form of robbery, but at least there's an aspect of even-handedness to it.

I doubt there has ever been a budget that couldn't have been better for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

"Nick Clegg reveals Tories' £13bn VAT bombshell"

'Liberal Democrat Leader Nick Clegg today revealed the £13.4bn VAT bombshell at the heart of the Tories' tax plans.

Analysis of the Conservatives' proposed tax cuts or reversals shows that they will cost over £13.5bn a year in 2011-12 prices – yet just £100m has been specifically identified to fund them.

This leaves a £13.4bn black hole, equivalent to a 3% rise in the standard rate of VAT. This would mean an extra tax of £389 on the average household.

Liberal Democrats have costed, in full, our proposals for tax cuts. We can tell you, penny for penny, pound for pound, who pays for them.
We will not have to raise VAT to deliver our promises. The Conservatives will.
Let me repeat that: Our plans do not require a rise in VAT. The Tory plans do.

"Their tax promises on marriage and jobs may sound appealing. But they come with a secret VAT bombshell close behind."

"So if you're on an ordinary income, you have a choice. If you want your taxes to rise: vote Labour or Conservative. If you want your taxes to fall: choose the Liberal Democrats." '

8th April 2010 Liberal Democrat Voice


"....but I accept the VAT rise."
Like there's a choice?

Oh well .... we were warned back in August last year

'Labour published a dossier accusing the Tories of proposing £22 billion worth of unfunded promises, and warned that the Opposition would increase VAT and "butcher" public services.
"We know the age-old Tory tax hike is a VAT increase," Lord Mandelson said'
The Independent 1 April 2010

Tories deny plan for 20% VAT rate BBC News 9 August 2009

'The Tories have "absolutely no plans" to increase VAT to 20% if they win the next general election, shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley has insisted.
"We have been very clear about that because we don't want to be in a position where we have to have big tax increases, the effect of which is to stifle the economy."

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I am in that poorer sector Georgiansilver, but I accept the VAT rise.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:55 PM

It could have been a lot better.


20% vat hits the poorest sector in the pocket...... to the rich that is a drop in the ocean....

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

It could have been a lot worse.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

Well I am looking at the budget points and in all honesty, it does not seem as bad as I expected. I am definately not well off and can't even afford a holiday for the second year running. Stopped buying alcohol or going out for meals. We have cut down on luxury spending on food, plus other things.
Already tightened the spending belt. That's what you have to do in times of need.

VAT up to 20% is a bummer, but at least we can see the tax increase clearly, unlike Labour who hid their tax increases.
If I can afford to buy anything, I have no problem paying the VAT. If I can't I go without.

No increase on Alcohol, Ciggies or petrol.

Increase in tax allowance.

Most of the benefit allowances seem to be fair enough.

Here is the link to the main points of the budget.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10374475.stm

Whoever does a budget will get whinged at by the ones it directly affects. We have a massive debt and we have to face up to it. Everybody will have to play their part.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Great for sole traders under the VAT threshold. Not.

Then it would be worth registering voluntarily and adopting the Flate Rate Scheme under which there is a litle profit to be made!

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

I think it's short for weasel - a nasty, sneaky way of getting out of your legal and moral obligations. Something Boko professes to be an expert at.

I don't think I'm an expert at anything.

As a result of the mess left by brown's government, HMRC simply do not have the manpower to collect tax due from companies that have been dissolved by Companies House - to quote the tax officer "it's regrettable, but that the way it is."

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:08 AM

"Good wease eh!!"

I think it's short for weasel - a nasty, sneaky way of getting out of your legal and moral obligations. Something Boko professes to be an expert at.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

I suppose you lot know what you're on about, but does it occur to you that you have started a thread about an ongoing topic, starting in midstream weith no explanation of your provincial references?


A

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:33 AM

So much for all the Tory shite about fairness - it's inevitable that the VAT increase will hit poorer families harder than Cameron's rich, over-privileged buddies. Still, did we really expect anything different? Bloody Thatcher all over again.

Boko - are you advocating tax evasion? That's illegal. Still, let's face it, it's what the feet-in-the-trough brigade have been doing for years.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack who's cookie has gone west
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM

Great for sole traders under the VAT threshold. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:30 AM

Wheeze?

Subject: BS: A well balanced fair budget!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:20 AM

Something for everyone and something from everyone. It could even be worth having a limited company for a year - don't submit any accounts, Companies House will then dissolve company - HMRC will not chase for tax as they don't have the manpower!!! Good wease eh!!