BS: Memorial - States' Rights

Subject: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM

I'm not sure why this, perhaps dying, Confederate soldier's request moved me, but here is the background.

Just 149 years ago this summer, William Russel Howard was touring the fragmenting USA to cover the impending civil war. He had made his name as a war correspondent, for the (London) Times in his coverage of the heroism and iniquities if the Crimean War half a decade before. He toured the slave- owning south, having set out as neutral over the issues, including slavery, though sadly I lack that volume. The book I have covers his movements following his decision to go north, into Federal terrotory, because the blockade meant he could no longer send his dispatches home. The Confederates did not hinder his travels, which perhaps led to the suspicions which accompanied his stay in the north. Eventually, the hindrances placed in his way by Federal officials led him to abandon his mission to cover the war, and he went back to England. Much, in my opinion, to the loss of both the USA and history.

On his journey north, he travelled up the Mississippi from Vicksburg to Memphis. There were soldiers being transported north on board; and it appears that some of these fell sick; fever and dysentery are I suppose normal around the great river. They appeared to have little medical attention, and Russel treated some of them using his own medicine chest, for which they were duly grateful.

But he wrote of one of these who spoke to him:

"Stranger, remember, if I die," gasped one great fellow, attenuated to a skeleton by dysentery, "That I am Robert Tallon, of Tishimingo County, and that I died for States' rights; see, now, put that in the papers, won't you? Robert Tallon died for States' rights," and so he turned round on his blanket.

Well, I don't like the cause, and I'm not sure (and neither I think was Russel) if he died then. Perhaps he died; perhaps he recovered, to die on the battlefield, or of another disease, or peacefully in a changed country. But Russel respected his request, and though his cause was wrong and his death perhaps inglorious, we can remember his distress, 149 years ago on the 14th of July.

Does anyone know where Tishimingo County is, or if Tallons still live there?

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:58 PM

His cause was "wrong" because his side lost. Many have wondered what the US would be like if the South had won the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:59 PM

Tishimingo County is in Mississippi, extreme NE corner, current population about 19,000, 94 percent white.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:06 PM

There are Tallon's in Mississippi and other states but I don't know relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:12 PM

And for the record, the term "states rights" is one of the most bogus terms ever created by people who wouldn't know squat about states rights other than whatever their beliefs on any issue must be right because of this bogus term...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:17 PM

Did you see "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?"..........The three goofball escapees are at a river on the second day where two of the them spontaneously get baptized. Later that day (they're still wet) they pick up the guy who, like Robert Johnson, made a deal with the devil.

Surrounding the river are trees covered in Spanish Moss. Since Spanish Moss only grows along the coastlines in the Southeast, the Baptisms had to take place along the coastal areas of Mississippi. Soon after the Baptisms, the men pick up a hitchhiker and they all go to the radio station/recording studio in Tishomingo. Tishomingo is in the Northeast corner of Mississippi. There is no way that they could have traveled that far, from the coast to Tishomingo all before 2:30 in the afternoon (which is indicated by the clock on the wall in the radio station/recording studio).

But then again, its the movies!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:27 PM

Tishomingo has a nice sound to it.

Spanish moss (not a moss) is common on live oak and some other trees, and grows fron Virginia to Argentina; it is not confined to the coast but will grow wherever it is warm and humid enough.

I have grown it in Canada*








* in my heated greenhouse

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:27 PM

Hey, Spawzer, I loved that movie and now you done discredited it and, sheet fire son... Ain't nuthin' sacred???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:58 PM

Don't give up the faith, Bobert! Unbelievers will always concoct supposed errors in the sacred text!!

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:21 PM

You may find descendants of him if you post the info above to the Fallon Surname at genforum.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:40 PM

*states rights* is code for "I don't want anyone telling me what to do...about guns, booze, taxes, tobacco, speed limits...etc., and I intend to live in a place where those who agree with me out-vote everyone else - no matter what all you liberal pansies think."

Those who like the above definition have a VERY narrow idea of what The United States means.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:01 PM

Bobert, Catspaw is half wrong. It occurs almost to the Yockanookany River valley, more than half way from the Gulf to Tishomingo. The escapees would still have a 200 mile hike, but that's easy in Movieland.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:05 PM

When they pick up the guitarist they're in a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:13 PM

Q....While I do agree on the Spanish Moss it is mainly coastal there and then up the Mississippi and Tishomingo is still a good ways off and not to similar an area.........Doesn't matter much as the whup-ups along that order in the movie are all over the place. On the other hand, none of them keep me from loving the movie as I will watch anything with John Turturro and Tim Blake Nelson just cracks me up. And that's not to mention the Coens.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:21 PM

Still a ways even by car but it is the movies. Only in the movies can you take so many shots from a tree limb wielded by a guy the size of John Goodman and not be in the hospital.....LOL......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:56 PM

That movie was good fun.

Now what was this thread about?

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 01:50 AM

I think the life and growing range of Tillandsia usneoides and its preference for live oak instead of dead oak..............just a joke......live=evergreen and all that...(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:50 AM

Not true, his comment about states rights was a major issue. Keep in mind the 14th Amendment to the Constitution only came about after the war - 1868. In part, it laid out the rules that laws passed by the federal government had to be obeyed by the states ... that was never in the constitution before that.   And many today use that term to justify anything they don't like. Fact is ... I tell them read the 14th Amendment if you want to know about your states rights ..

If we didn't have the 14th ,   states could still segregate schools saying it is our right ... History proves most states don't do a good job on the rights thing unless it is only for certain people or groups they like. However the soldiers comments at that time were correct, that is what he was fighting for I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM

His cause was "wrong" because his side lost.

You bet, Sins, and Hitler & National Socialism were "wrong" because their side lost. Jesus, get a grip.

Actually, the gent in question was William Howard Russell, and his diary was written 1861-1862, & originally published in 1863, before the outcome of the war was known. This may color his descriptions & interpretations a bit. Subsequent (edited & revised?) editions published at the height of the "Lost Cause" nonsense.

However the soldiers comments at that time were correct, that [states rights]is what he was fighting for I am sure.

The old states rights dodge has been disproved so often its amazing that anyone still resorts to it. All anyone who wants to know which "States' Right", i.e. SLAVERY, the Confederacy was so exercised about has to do is read the South Carolina Ordinance of Secession (ditto those of other states).

Now, this particular Secesh may have THOUGHT he was fighting for some lofty general principle, but the common soldier is often mistaken about the real reason(s) for the conflict he's engaged in.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:39 AM

I suspect Tallon thought he was fighting to maintain slavery; a little later Russell quotes a Mississippi planter who had spent much of his life fighting as an adventurer in the many Latin American wars of the time, and neglected his property in the process, as saying that of 110 slaves he had only five left, but he was "going to stand up for States' rights as long as I can draw a trigger- so snakes and abolitionists look out." Russell comments that "it must be a benefit to American society to get rid of a considerable number of the class of which he is a representative man." Not much Lost Cause romanticism there.

No, it was more the pathos of the appeal for the recording of his name- he may well have thought that he was dying- that interested me. Well, he succeeded, in as much as people who open the book today will know the bare fact that he existed, and for whatever reason supported States' rights.

Tallon- it's not an English name I don't think. Perhaps French?

And Greg- yes, I shouldn't post when drop taken. Russell. Mine is obviously one of the early editions, as the outcome of the war is certainly not known at the time- it finishes with the news of the death of Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband) in December 1861, and Russell's return to Europe the following March. It appears to have been owned by somebody who lived in Scarsdale House, Ripley, Derbyshire (UK) at some stage, and they must have been quite well off, because they had a telephone- Ripley 70- and their own letter press.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:48 AM

Greg,
the common soldier rarely if ever knows why he is fighting ... it is usually about what someone told him or her why they are fighting .. That is the insanity of war for sure ... nothing ever makes sense. Most of the time the real reason is something other and has to do with large sums of money or lust for land

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:24 AM

You betcha, olddude. Have you ever read Ambrose Bierce's "What I Saw Of Shiloh" & other Civil War pieces?

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 06:47 PM

I have sometimes imagined an alternative history in which the slave states had had the electoral whip hand, and the non-slave states had tried to secede from the Union in the name of "States Rights"...

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 09:36 AM

Considering the actual historical record of the 200+ year run-up to the Civil War, might be an interesting thought experiment,McG, but next to impossible in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:03 PM

"...alternative history in which the slave states had had the electoral whip hand, ..."

I can imagine that a bit... a few more decades of slavery, with technology and transportation and communication getting better...until suddenly the slaves are not only madder and smarter, but have access to more weapons and ways to escape. I suspect the carnage would have exceeded that of the actual Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:07 PM

for some perspective on the entire matter, read... if you care to... a post I made years ago about the possibility of extending subjugation of one race by another.

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:15 PM

I agree with your thesis, Bill, but what's a long-overdue slave revolt that got to do the northern states seceeding?

Subject: RE: BS: Memorial - States' Rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:51 PM

Looking at the electoral results in the years up to the Civil War (see here), I don't think it's too fanciful to imagine a situation in which a combination of a pro-slavery President and a Supreme Court stacked in such a way that it ruled that it was unconstitutional for states to deny citizens the right to own slaves, could have had the kind of outcome that I imagined in that last post I made.

Nothing inevitable about a federal government being on the side of the angels when it comes to racism or anything else.