A- Ceilidh a new genre?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 03:19 PM

There is room for us all...
Yes indeed. But there is also a time and place for everything.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

One tune versus a medley

Surely there is room for us all......

or to quote the Everley Brothers
You go your way and I'll go mine
now and forever till the end of time

Gerry

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 02:57 PM

It was George King's Hornpipe, a 3/2 tune from Thomas Marsden's Collection Of Lancashire Hornpipes. We looked at the main theme and two variations, as far as I remember, or maybe three variations. So, at most 16 bars in all. It was very meditational. It presented technical problems to some (playing in A Myxolydian is kind of backwards to a D/G melodeon player). And we explored in some depth how and when to play the variations(including playing all three or four parts simultaneously which was the best bit!)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 02:46 PM

I caused a few raised eyebrows when I ran a tune workshop at Sidmouth last year and spent the whole time on one tune.

What was the tune, out of interest? I'd be glad to spend an hour on a finger-baffler like Elsie Marley or The Ale is Dear, but I'm not sure I'd want to devote more than a couple of minutes to Buttered Peas. (But who knows, it might be a meditational experience!)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:52 PM

And here I am sitting in a pub playing the same really really well known tune over and over and over and over again. Suits me fine. I wouldn't issue a record like that, I do tend to use medleys for recordings, but playing for dancing or relaxation, I love repetition.
Jenny Lind Polka

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:51 PM

I've just purchased John Kirkpatrick's new tunebook - "Jump At The Sun". In the preface, he hymns the virtues of simplicity - and then fills his book with quirky tune after quirky tune - culminating in "Bobby Shafto Goes Bonkers", where he notates the variations in every conceivable time signature and adds, in the description of how it was put together, "How we laughed!". Great fun!

There's a great thing about good rules: Stick to them - and break 'em when you feel like it. As my Irish grannie used to say: "Have what you will - but pay for it..."

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:47 PM

I caused a few raised eyebrows when I ran a tune workshop at Sidmouth last year and spent the whole time on one tune. However, there were more compliments than complaints!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:43 PM

I note that the quoted John Kirkpatrick article is nearly 30 years old. I wonder if that is still his opinion?

Paws

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:40 PM

John Kirkpatrick's article is interesting, and I generally agree with it. God spare us from people trying to make things"interesting". I regularly find dance callers sneering at popular old dances (eg Cumberland Square Eight). They no longer find the dance interesting, so they see no reason why common or garden people should be allowed to dance the old way. They continually make up new ones that Jo and Joan Bloggs can't grasp because they are not folk dance specialists.The same happens with people ultra keen on new interesting tunes.
The repetiton of tunes is the way to find out how to play them. That does not come with playing a tune twice and then changing to one with an interestingly contrasting key.
I have a few well loved sets of tunes that I do play for dancing, sure, but by and large a think one tune is fine. As John K says, that's when you can try out and improve, little variations, different decorations, diferent octaves, different emphasis.
Let's face it, making up tunes is fun. Especially if you are student, and put "jazzy" bits in. Sticking interesting medleys together is fun.
But there is also a lot to bew said for learning to play as well as you can, and suiting the dancers as well as you can. The two approaches don't always fit together. Believe me, there's nothing wrong with playing Soldiers Joy twelve times.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

real cross-cultural achievement try Little Diamond,Waiting for the Federals then into Bad moon Rising,worth it just to see the dancers faces when the penny drops and they realise what tune it is

Gerry

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:09 PM

Nothing wrong with one dance/one tune. Perfectly good policy that has stood the test of time.

Hear hear; although I like a good medley, both to play and to dance to, and would also argue that a change of tune (especially if co-ordinated with the first couple arriving back at the head of the set and everyone getting a 2nd tuen through the dance) can make for a change in the feel or subtle emphases of the dance the second time around.

John Kirkpatrick, however, takes a much more hard-line approach on the subject ...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 11:41 AM

Thanks Greg, very reassuring. Rob's contact details by PM

Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 11:21 AM

Nothing wrong with one dance/one tune. Perfectly good policy that has stood the test of time.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 11:11 AM

I guess turning oil tankers around comes to mind. We played one tune per dance. This suited us because almost none of us have played for dance before. The practice was good and obviously avoided tricky tune changes. I guess we will move to 2 or 3 as and when.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 10:44 AM

Les, it was very easy last night for Julian (melodeon player) to just turn to me and say "Another A" - and we did it. Any more than half a dozen players, say, and that sort of off-the-top change becomes very difficult.

The actual progression through the tunes set is calculated, at our gigs, by the caller/drummer (James) and Julian who, between them, calculate to a nicety the exact number of choruses to play so that all the dancers complete all the dance moves so many times - and at least once! So there are often shifts from the written tune - not so much in melody but in part quantities. When we play the "Bedbreaker", for example, we usually just play the A once through, rather than twice, to fit the dance we call with it. It's now just known as "1A", as in: "What are we doing next?" "1A!". However - last night, we did the whole lot, so it became "2A"... :-)

It's all Greek to me - I just plays what I'm told.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 09:46 AM

Thanks Will,
I have spent about a thousand years going through The Beatles Complete trying turn them into country dance tunes with no real success at all.

I think another of our limitations is that we do all more or less play the tune - nobody playing hamonies or whatever. It seems to work ok and as all I ever do is put the dots in front of people and shout go - I am a happy person

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 06:13 AM

As for dancing, I was playing at a ceilidh last night (as a duo), and - given the composition of the sets at certain times of the evening - we played the odd A part 3 times instead of two, and added an extra B part, or shifted down to one B part - just to fit all the moves in for the dancers. So, not impossible.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 06:10 AM

Oh, I dunno - I've just picked up the mandolin and shifted from Dennis Murphy's to Bad Moon Rising with the flick of a pick (in D). Sounded fun - might even try it at the session on Sunday!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 06:00 AM

Bad Moon Rising fits in well in a polka set

My internal tune player has just tried segueing from several polkas (Ballydesmond, Primrose, and Poolside to name but three) and I can't get out of any of them without a pretty crunching change of rhythm.

I can see how it might work in a session, but certainly not for dancing the way my mind's ear hears it - is there a link somewhere that demonstrates this splendid cross-cultural achievement in action?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 04:46 AM

Bad Moon Rising fits in well in a polka set

Gerry

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 04:15 AM

The Beech Big Band sounds great, Les, and more power to your elbow (the one connected to the tenor banjo) for getting it into action.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, I was playing with a fellow "Unreel" member at a mini ceilidh - just the two of us playing and his wife calling - last night. In between dances, he mentioned that he'd seen a band in Birmingham some years ago who played in a traditional style for ceilidhs - but the actual tunes were rock classics!

I can just imagine the Beech Big Band swinging "In The Mood", "String Of Pearls" or "Take The A-Train"... in ceilidh style, naturally! :-)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 03:55 AM

Oh, and a big band seems to bring along quite a few friends so the evening gets going early on

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 02:34 PM

For anybody interested in the idea of A-Ceilidh I think I think this:

1. A big band is lots of fun - nobody feels under pressure to be note perfect - the down side is we may always be a but uncrisp.
2. Ours grew out of our Beginners Tune Session, we have been playing together for about 18 months - Thanks to Shrewsbury for showing us the way - we are not note perfect but I think we are quite good.
3. Playing in a small hall means dancers get to know each other very quickly and are at ease with each other and laugh a lot
4. A small PA and microphone is essential for the caller, I think.
5. Musicians can leave the band and make up numbers to keep the sets full

As far as I can tell evrybody really enjoyed it - but then who doesn't enjoy a Ceilidh?

Cheers
L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 09:46 AM

It was a great night, and I think the Beech Big Band sounded pretty good - I'm sure there was the odd bum note, but we were all playing the same tune at the same time, which isn't bad when you've got 25 people on the stand and a lot of other people distracting them by dancing all over the place. (Or, at one point, 25 people huddled in the middle of quite a small dancefloor, hemmed in by a circle dance. I forget what the tune was called - something about Rakes of the Alamo, I think.) Another time I might defect to the dancers - they looked like they were having a lot of fun.

The Band has got a secret weapon, it has to be said - several of the newer recruits, in particular, appear to have the ability to look at dots on lines and play music straight off, even when the music is quite quick. While the older members of the band are of the firm opinion that this be witchcraft and agin nature, we've got to admit that it comes in very handy.

Here's to the next time!

PS Can it be somewhere that serves beer?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Thanks for last night's fun go to the Beech Band:
EllieGarryGedGlynneGordonHelenJennJennJJJulesJulieKarenKateKenMarie-ClaireMark
MickeyMikePhilPhilRobRosieUrsulaWes.

To all the dancers and Kieran and his staff at Chorlton Irish Club for putting up with us

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:36 AM

So, A-Ceilidh as in Acoustic Ceilidh.

25 in the band and still counting. The Returning Officer will make an official declaration later. General concensus, a great night out. Band played well, caller, miked up to give him a chance, was brilliant, dancers priceless.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM

What's your band called Mr Red?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 05:26 AM

A-Ceilidh? Give it a go.

Though I would counsel that you choose musicians who dance regularly as an option of choice. They know what the feet need, more than the ear.

And the caller is a key member - it is not a skill anyone can do without learning the trade.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 05:23 AM

E-Ceilidh is English Ceilidh.

Loud? Depends on the band but I am never without ear-plugs, just in case. I very rarely refuse a band but there is one, who knows - they may have quietened down, but their "enthusiasm" for noise and pyrotechnics gets in the way of the essential idea of dancing - the rhythms that human physiology require. Even the original drummer gave up on them because of the noise. THE DRUMMER!

Most dances are English - much to the surprise of non-dancers. Either English Trad, or composed in the last 40 or so years. Though we are not averse to "the Bridges of Athlone" - Scottish since you ask, Chapeloise - French by adoption, Swedish by origin. Almost invariably we start & finish wish an uncalled polka ('cos that's wot we likes) though with enough space I might venture an Italian Polka or a Mazurka (now I have got my head round the confusing patterns).

We might even do a Playford dance though not the way the Playford community would approve - "Sir Roger de Coverly" with 8 couples - yes 8 - as John Kirkpatrick (the notsominor deity) says - as written in 1648!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

Mmmmmmmmmmmm Actually 20 players wouldn't be all that much louder than four or five

Is this something to do with decibels being non-linear?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 01:05 PM

Let's not forget that one of the prototype bands of what became the E-ceilidh movement was Flowers and Frolics, and they used to play unamplified, even at the Sidmouth Late Night Extra. (I know this, I was there) They gave up on playing acoustically, because they just kept breaking melodeons. They were my one of my favourite bands, and I loved the sound they made and the way that could be so loud purely acoustically.

I agree that a huge band wouldn't be best to dance to because they would make a mush of sound without the required crispness of rhythm. Actually 20 players wouldn't be all that much louder than four or five, and certainly nowhere near the levels that you'd get with even moderate use of PA.

I like small bands though. I've done perfectly good village hall gigs with
melodeon and piano
and with melodeon, concertina and Sousaphone

No percussion, but amplified enough to be heard comfortably at the back of the hall.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

Not quite being in tune - the utter joy of the banjo

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:37 AM

Now why did I read that "2 play in tune"?

The trouble is, we don't yet know which two...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:00 AM

Spot on Effsee!!!!!!!!!!

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Effsee
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:42 PM

How can it be a new genre?...that's how they started out!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 06:20 PM

From: Les in Chorlton - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:28 PM

We often have 3 banjos - 2 play the tune and one rhythm


Now why did I read that "2 play in tune"?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 06:18 PM

Here's the link again.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:35 PM

Chorlton Irish Club
Wednesday 21 July
Here

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:56 PM

Well, Les, how did it go? We're all A-gog :)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:28 PM

We often have 3 banjos - 2 play the tune and one rhythm

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:17 PM

PS banjoes(or banjos) are quite useful rhythm instruments in an acoustic band too.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:15 PM

Washboards are great rhythm instruments indeed. Here is the Boat Band, playing Magic Island totally acoustically to an audience of c 300 in the New Vic Theatre, Newcastle-under-Lyme last year.And I think I can safely say the audience could hear us quite clearly. Mark Burke on washboard(Louisiana style) and whistle.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Geoff Skeet
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:05 PM

I play round Inverness and it seems that a "ceilidh" is an entertainment, largely for the elderly (people nearly my age but acting older) consisting of some country dances and songs like "the northern lights of old Aberdeen". Evenings more resolutely gaeliform could be called a "feis".
    Incidentally, the best rhythm driver is the washboard, what's happened to it these days?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 11:19 AM

I knew I was going to regret that post! Fortunately several of the band members who play even better than the rest of us play melodeons, so volume isn't a problem.

The massed ranks of the band played out informally last night - after I'd made my curmudgeonly comments - and I've got to say we sounded pretty good. (Even I wasn't that bad.) Looking forward to next Weds!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 09:12 AM

I have a friend who goes to the Camping club and leads the band of 'whoever turns up'. I think they amplify themselves and a few others, then let others sit in.
Maybe you should amplify
"the two or three of us who can really play"

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Bloke from Poole
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 07:32 AM

I suppose this could be a way to stop people talking over the walk-through...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:55 PM

Someone mentioned Portsmouth Sinfonia. Aaaaargh......I'm off. Players of that standard shouldn't be on a public stage

Come back! We're nowhere near that bad. I apologise for deploying my admittedly idiosyncratic sense of humour without adequate warning.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:21 PM

I am reminded of a memorable moment in a Spa ceilidh at Whitby (early 90s) when those on the dance floor (3-400 dancers? - it was full) took off their shoes, and danced the Morpeth Rant in total silence to an unamplified Joe Hutton (northumbrian smallpipes) Will Atkinson (moothie) and Will Taylor (fiddle).
The applause at the end brought the house down. The contrast between that and the usual far too amplified bands confirmed my preference for A-ceilidh wherever possible, permanently.

Someone mentioned Portsmouth Sinfonia. Aaaaargh......I'm off. Players of that standard shouldn't be on a public stage. Just my opinion, I know others differ.

Paws

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:42 PM

Bolinder boat engines have a particularly grrovy rhythm

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 12:16 PM

We have tried singing to the sound of the fruit machime but it rarely works

L in C