A- Ceilidh a new genre?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:38 AM

And (but you probably know this...) they do say the old boatmen would dance to the rhythm of the engine (post horse, obviously) in the absence of a musician...

baz

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:03 AM

Not sure quite how relevant this is, but it certainly concerns an unamplified instrument being used for dancing. I was once going through some BBC archive tapes to find some actuality to use in a programme about folk music andd harvest customs: I found a marvellous tape of an old guy reminiscing(possibly in Essex) of how they didn't always have a musician available, so they would start up the thrashing machine, and dance to its rhythm. Maybe the Beech Band could included a good big thrashing machine(and steam traction engine to drive it)...this should help keep time in the Portsmouth Sinfonia moments.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:45 AM

Before the cult of personality sets in its The Beech Band - or whoever turns up to The Beech on the last Tuesday of the month. We have been using the Horse & Jockey whilst the Beech was closed but will be in The Beech tonight and The Irish Club for dancing next Wednesday.

Thanks again for all advice. The caller will be amped and at present I really have no idea who will turn up or what instruments will be played. I am rather hoping (hopping?) that if we can get a big enough band we will never have to worry about who can and who cannot make the gig. That's an important point

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:03 AM

I will be very interested to hear Les's Chorlton Big Band, and spot the influences there!

We play in a style heavily influenced by the two or three of us who can really play (I'm still at the stage where I can relax into a tune or play it at dancing speed, but not both). Some nights you'll also spot the influence of the Portsmouth Sinfonia.

Seriously, the question of style is an interesting one, and I'd like to hear what informed observers think we sound like. (Diplomatic informed observers, anyway.)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM

The point about e-ceilidh is that it's about an attitude and an approach to dancing and music, which originated as a reaction to the EFDSS-style dances, rather than specific styles. It includes bands who stick pretty rigorously to traditional styles (from various regions) on traditional instruments, and bands which take the music in entirely new directions. It may well include electric instruments but this is by no means an essential element.

Most e-ceilidh bands use amplification for the same reason that most other bands do - for volume. However it's more to balance the volume coming from different acoustic instruments and to improve the quality of the sound, rather than raw volume (with some exceptions!). However it's entirely possible to play e-ceilidh without PA, and it happens fairly frequently.

Size of band is also no indication, as e-ceilidh bands can be of any size. However larger bands, unless they are used to playing together and have well worked-out arrangements, can all too easily degenerate into a mushy sound with everyone playing something slightly different.

For me the problem with the OP's "A-ceilidh" label is that it tells me nothing about the style of music or dancing to expect, only that it will be unamplified. I don't find that's very helpful information when deciding whether or not to go to an event.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:03 AM

But what would be the preferred instrument line up for "A-ceilidh"? Would pipe and tabour count, or maybe a few melodeons, or are we thinking something more gentle?

I think the A-ceilidh movement is a bit young to already be beset by earnest discussions about the preferred instrumentation :)

To me A-ceilidh is a broad movement; whether it's the aforementioned solo pipe-and-tabourer, or the annual general meeting of the Worshipful Company of Rauschpfeifers letting their hair down with a few step-hops, if it's acoustic, and there's a ceilidh going on, it's a-ceilidh ....

Good luck and happy dancing tonight Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:51 PM

Just to clarify, that the "definitions" of e-ceilidh that I used in my recent post, and published in EDS, were from Webfeet and the eceilidh website. they weren't my definitions. I don't think they imply that the music has to come from the south of England! Bands such as New Victory showed early on in the so-called English country music movement that traditional music in England is not a single style.
Anyway, Les, let us all know how you get on!
Derek

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Bloke from Poole
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:13 PM

Drat, I meant the "Bismarcks and more recent derivatives" - which includes the Watch, of course. It can be done.

But I've been to several ceilidhs with bands that are often described as e-ceilidh bands and they've just lost the bottom line. I don't want to have to _listen_ to the music for stepping, it needs to just _be_ there.
If I'm with a good dancer it takes a lot of the fun out of it if I have to dig the stepping out of the sound, and if I'm trying to steer a beginner around a set it makes it very difficult.

But what would be the preferred instrument line up for "A-ceilidh"? Would pipe and tabour count, or maybe a few melodeons, or are we thinking something more gentle?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:53 PM

We had an unscheduled mini-ceilidh after a choir gig - just a fiddler or two and a single set on the grass outside the pub. Most pleasant.

Rather louder was the un-amplified dance by Shropshire Bedlams/Martha Roden's Tuppenny Dish in the small hours of a Sidmouth morning. Pipe and tabour, more or less, and a set stretching away in the gloom between the tents. The caller and player's immortal line 'I shall make this dance very simple; because you are all very drunk.'

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:27 AM

Disconcerting to read Bloke from Poole quoting
The Watch (and more recent derivatives). I haven't quite got over The Bismarcks disbanding yet. Yes, the three-piece band built around Gareth Kiddier's left hand is the ultimate ceilidh band.

Reverting to all-acoustic as an idea, the musicians' view I've heard seems to be that for fiddles to carry over a decent-sized space full of people, they - never mind the caller - need amplification.

I'd remembered a scratch band at a southern song festival ceilidh as probably being acoustic - looked the pictures up, and, sure enough, there was amplification. Some 'scratch' band !

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: alex s
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:10 AM

One of the best ceilidhs we've done was a wedding near manchester. It was a very warm evening and when we suggested playing outside all agreed it would be a good idea - then the amp packed in! so we did it acoustically on the lawn (3 musicians and a (loud-voiced) caller). there were fairy lights on in the trees and it went like clockwork - very olde tyme. brilliant.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:49 AM

A group has to be *really* together to play acoustically for dancing without percussion or bass. Usually the bass and percussion are what the dancers are actually using to cue in on, the tune is purely decorative.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Bloke from Poole
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM

I've danced to bands with three musicians and to bands with twenty, as long as the rhythm and phrasing are clear, it isn't any louder than it needs to be, and the music sounds good, then it will be a good evening. The possible risk with a bigger, informal band is a "muddy" sound with people doing their own thing.

I know of one band who predominantly play Irish ("Celtic rock") and have found them very hard to dance to when they do a barn dance, because the rhythm wasn't clear for stepping. Too much emphasis on being fast and clever.

A good punchy rhythm will not only keep the dancers "in step", it helps novices, gives a lift to tired legs and encourages people on to the floor.

The Watch (and more recent derivatives) can achieve this with three musicians and no percussion or bass; the larger bands I've danced to tend to be morris musicians, a lot of boxes and often again no percussion, but used to keeping feet moving.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:25 AM

Baz, Only if you correct the typo, to 'lynchpin' :)

Greg, I think you've put your finger on it with the reference to the old 'English Country Music' movement. The way I (and I think many other people see it) all ECM dance bands are e-ceilidh, but only a proportion of e-ceilidh bands are ECM, whereas (if I may put words in your mouth) you see the two as far more overlapping.

I think we are dangerously close to needing Venn diagrams, which sounds like a very good point to stop!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:01 AM

Sfmans...why thank you...can we quote you on that?

returning to subject, a few years ago several of the musicians from Chinewerde morris (who went on to become, amongst others, Steamchicken) put together a project called Malemarokers (sp?) which was a big acoustic band. I never heard them, but I'm pretty certain there's evidence out there...

Baz

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:47 AM

Go for a silent Ceilidh.

Sidmouth - Bulverton Marquee
On Sunday evening, last year's highly popular Silent Disco is being extended with the addition of a Silent Ceilidh. The audience dances to the music on headphones, and there's a Christmas theme to the whole event!

Ruth Archer knows all about these

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:32 AM

sfmans: the point I was making is that the sounds associated with e-ceilidh come from a folk revival mash-up of various musical traditions largely from south and east of the Cotswold/Wash line (obviously, in the main, East Anglia, Sussex (Scan Tester) and the Cotswold morris tradition). This new style was developed/adopted by many people outside of that area, eg All Blacked Up who do of course come from Shropshire. The Plain Brown Wrapper Band are resolutely north-west, and do have stylistic elements from that region which separate them from the mainstream "English Country Music" sound.
The Boat Band plays in a style highly influenced by northern traditional musaicians, and also by southern revivalists! Baz Parkes, who calls for All Blacked Up and the Boat Band, could doubtless pinpoint these differences.
I will be very interested to hear Les's Chorlton Big Band, and spot the influences there!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Folks all most useful. I am atracted to the big band idea partly because we should never be challenged by a few not turning up. And Sean's comment about 'Anarcho-Ceilidh' is spot on

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:32 AM

Baz is too modest to say so himself but of course he's been the caller for one of the archetypal and linch-pin E-Ceilidh bands, All Blacked Up, for more years than he probably cares to remember: and last time I looked Shropshire was definately North and West of greg's Cotswolds to Wash demarcation line. Resolutely North-Western bands like Plain Brown Wrapper and Albireo are also definately e-ceilidh in any but the most One-Hour's-Drive-From-London of definitions.

Les, good luck with the do at the Irish Centre, and this may be too late to organise for this Wednesday, but I'd suggest that you try splitting the numbers down into smaller bands if you really do get anything like 27 musicians.

It sounds like a statment from the Department of the Bleedin Obvious, but one of the most important things about playing any dance is that you're playing for the dancing; and you're going to need a very very strong, sensitive, and universally understood and accepted lead musician to keep that number playing anything like what will really work for dancing to.

Individuals may get less actual playing time in terms of sheer minutes and seconds, but they'll get a much better experience of what playing for dancing actually is all about - and if they're on the floor dancing in between their playing slots they'll get an even better idea of what does and doesn't work for playing for dancing!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:23 AM

Sorry, Greg. Cross posted. Have to go out now but am really interested in learning about these tunes.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:21 AM

The Boat Band definitely don't "mostly play Cajun stuff".

I'll take your word for that, Baz. I only have what I've seen on youtube to judge by.

I know from Jamie Knowles' books that Greg knows a lot about Cumbrian tunes, and would be interested to buy 'A Trip to the Lakes' but it's not easy to find.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:21 AM

Dear GUEST Ed, I may be talking bollocks, but it is reasonably informed bollocks. I have been playing English dance tunes since the 60's, seriously researching northern Engliash dance music since 1970ish, have recorded the stuff, broadcast talks about it, played a million barn dances, written articles on the topic etc etc.I am fairly confident that the majority of people seriously into English dance music, anmd especially the music of the northwest, will have attended one of my workshops one time or another, or heard me talk on the subject, or heard the "Trip to the Lakes" or the "Beggar Boy of the North" or "Nantwich Fair" albums, or something similar. I also know Derek Schofield perfectly well as a Crewe bloke, having lived near Crewe for 25 years myself.
I do freely admit to knowing a few cajun tunes, and a few tunes from other parts as well. That is what I study, dance tunes.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:18 AM

Sounds like Anarcho-Ceilidh to me, Les - which is the way things ought to be in the earthly human scheme of what remains my all-inclusive folk-idyll-diddle day-dream despite the accumulated hierarchical hoo-hah...

Keep up the good work!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:03 AM

We have been running our Beginners Session for around 18 months and have gathered 30 to 40 musicians. I am working on the idea that anybody who wants to play should do so hence 27 in May in a concert format with songs also.

We don't know if 10, 15 or 27 will work for dancing that's why we are having a try.

Thanks to all and still taking advice

Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

Guest Ed:
Having had the pleasure to work with the Boat band a few times recently, they definitely don't "mostly play Cajun stuff". OK you might not like Greg's opinion, but uninforme criticism doesn't help.

Check out Trip to the Lakes...or Beggar Boy of the North some 30 years earlier.

Cajun...je crois que non...

Baz

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

I MUST agree with Greg's comment above - The last time I saw The Boat Band (Melodeon Fiddle and Guitar with vocals) they played a Cajun Dance evening without Amplification , and only really lost the impact of the excellent vocals .
Incidentally , they were Un Amplified as it was MY PA , and I had a silly problem which rendered it useless on the night !
The Band did a Damn Good Job though !

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM

They may well apply to actual traditional music south and east of the Cotswold/Wash line, but that is only a part of England.

Really?!? Well blow me down. Here was me think that was the whole of England....

For what it's worth Derek lives (or has lived for many years) in Crewe aka the North West. I don't think that your comment is fair Greg, particularly given that the Boat Band mostly play Cajun stuff.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM

Les in Chorlton: you don't actually need as many as twenty-seven unamplified instruments to dance to. These tunes were made by fiddlers mostly, and they mostly worked on their own. Obviously a big hall or marquee full of people might need a bit more oomph, but I would suggest an accordion,2 fiddlers, cello/bass and a bit of percussion(or some similar lineup) is quite adequate for a standard village hall with 10-20 couples on the the floor.
This is not a theory by the way, this is actual practise. I have often played acoustically for dancing, as I am sure most musicians have.
I would put in a plea for the banjo here. Can't be beat for cutting through asnd giving a clear beat in an unamplified environment. The bodhran, however, is better used as a drinks tray for the musicians.The flubadubadub nose it makes when played doesn't always help in an unamplified lineup trying to hold a tight rhythm against background noise.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 06:40 AM

Derek Schofield's remarks above about English trad music should be taken with a pinch of salt. They may well apply to the kind of revival music played by the Oak/Old Swan/Flowers and Frolics/ axis that gave rise to the English Country Music Weekend and the term e-ceilidh, but they don't necessarily apply to the traditions of dance music in England as a whole. They may well apply to actual traditional music south and east of the Cotswold/Wash line, but that is only a part of England.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 05:47 AM

Ah, beat me to it Derek.

I will also, however, respectfully direct your attention to this somewhat tongue-in-cheek article, which I originally wrote in a 'What is E-Ceilidh?' thread on uk.music.folk, and Anahata was moved to preserve for posterity ...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 05:47 AM

Thanks Derek that's very clear.

But now for A-Ceilidh with the A for acoustic. 27 of us played together last time out and I thought - this is loud enough to dance to. We probably wont get 27 at our first Ceilidh but I am hoping for at least double figues, so to speak.

Chorlton Irish Club
Wednesday 21 July
Here

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 05:17 AM

e-ceilidh is not, as I understand it, the way Les has defined it. It's a combination, and therefore confusion?, between e-ceilidh as in electronic (e-mail etc) - hence the discussion list e-ceilidh - and e-ceilidh as in English ceilidh. so there is no particular emphasis on the music being loud (I'd prefer it to be quieter in some cases - this is music for social situations) or fast (as stated above, the emphasis in English music is that it's slower than Irish or Scottish.
Les - I think your band would fit into the e-ceilidh category fine.

In the latest issue of English Dance & Song, I included the following at the end of an article on Stroud ceilidhs:

E-Ceilidh
What is e-ceilidh? It's short for English Ceilidh, which the e-ceilidh discussion list on the internet describes as 'a dance type derived from traditional English dance, with emphasis on stepping and style rather than complexity. It is always danced rather than walked.' The music is considered to be very important – 'a more pounding, rhythmic, lumpier style of music than that usually associated with the smoother, Scottish style or the faster Irish or hoe-down American music,' according to the Webfeet website.

Derek Schofield
Editor of EDS

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 04:35 AM

I don't understand the term E-Ceilidh. I play in a 6-piece which has a PA system and we DI in electric instruments and mic up others. Other than that, it's a ceilidh band. If this is the term to use, then I used to play E-Jazz, E-Rock'n Roll and E-Funk.

Now, if only I could hear the E-Street Band playing the A-Train...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:30 AM

Mmmmmmmmmm Acid Ceilidh? Perhaps someone out there has an experience to share?

Perhaps I have missed the point with E-Ceilidh?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 04:10 PM

So not Acid Ceilidh then, Les?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,jennyr
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:29 PM

Speaking as a caller - yes, definitely amplify the caller!

Also, make sure that it's very clear which musicians are leading the band. This might sound obvious, but one of the disadvantages of larger bands is that it's much harder to adapt to the speed of the dancers, or to anything else unforseen - it's a nightmare if, for example, the fiddles can all see that the caller wants them to speed up a bit but the guitars know that their job is to keep things steady...

I'm not sure about your definition of e-ceilidh - my understanding/experience is that it doesn't necessarily have to be loud (although I agree that it often is), and it certainly doesn't have to be fast. The music is often played more slowly than, for example, Irish or American contra dance, to allow time for more bouncy stepping.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:37 PM

I could n't get the link to work

Gah, typung erorrrr. Try this instead.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM

Thanks sfmans that's most helpful. I could n't get the link to work but I will share your commenst with the rest of The Beech Band

Les in Chorlton

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 11:04 AM

We try to do this as much as possible as it makes for a more intimate social evening - absolutely nothing against the big all-electric bands, just aiming at something different.

Advice or experience? Well ...

Always amplify the caller(s). Their job is quite hard and tiring enough without having to shout over even the smallest of bands in the smallest of rooms. If you don't want to amplify any of the rest of the band, get a practice amp or a small combo and put the caller's microphone through that.

And if your audience or venue get a little larger, or you've got a range of instrument volumes, amplify the quieter instruments to the volume of the louder instruments. For example we've two saxophonists, and even playing quietly they can completely drown out the concertina and the guitar - so give the quieter instruments a hand with a subtle bit of reinforcement. Not only does it give a better balance, it means that the quieter instruments don't always have to play at the top of their volume range, which makes for better listening and dancing over the course of an evening.

I love playing amplified on a big PA with monitors and a real amplified ooomph to the sound .. but I also love driving home after a great semi-acoustic gig without my eardrums embedded in the middle of my head. Audiences tend to respond to the quieter volume by being quieter themselves - no less enthusiastic in their dancing, but somehow less wired and frantic. We regularly get people thanking us for allowing them to enjoy the evening in their own way!

The only other advice I've give is to talk to the booker beforehand. And if it's likely to be a rowdy aled-up crowd, take the full PA rig and maybe you won't need it when it comes down to it.

Subject: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 07:58 AM

I understand that E-Ceilidh is a genre, for want of a better word, of Ceilidh. Loud, electric fast and stuff like that. Is this about right? A bit diffferent to Irish Ceilidhs, EFDSS Ceilidhs, Scottish Country Dancing and that New Wave of English Country Dance Bands.

I am pondering the idea of A-Ceilidhs. That is Acoustic Ceilidhs in which:
1.more or less all instruments are played with out amplification
2. lots and lots of people are in the band
3. we play in small halls.

Clearly this is hardly a new idea. Any advice or experience to be shared.

L in C